My better half has a Kindle which is about ten years old and something
we found out recently when we were on holiday. They wanted to download a
book and the WiFi would not connect which I presume (could be wrong) is
due to updates made to remove the vulnerabilities in the key exchange
mechanism that is commonly used to establish a secure connection between
devices. Now it could be worse as at least I've resisted my ISP's
attempts to upgrade my old router so at least it works with that.

It's one of the problems I have with our over reliance on ever changing
technology with limited life time support. So our new dishwasher has
in-built WiFi (no I'm not sure why I'd use it either) and I seriously
doubt that in five or so years time the required app will work on the
devices I have. Now in this case it's no biggy as I can't say I'm that
interested in being able to start it, and monitor progress, on my phone
but it does highlight the issue. Build a device that you might expect to
have for many years falls down if it relies in technology that won't
last that long.

/mini-rant end

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:59:08 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>My better half has a Kindle which is about ten years old and something
>we found out recently when we were on holiday. They wanted to download a
>book and the WiFi would not connect which I presume (could be wrong) is
>due to updates made to remove the vulnerabilities in the key exchange
>mechanism that is commonly used to establish a secure connection between
>devices. Now it could be worse as at least I've resisted my ISP's
>attempts to upgrade my old router so at least it works with that.
>
>It's one of the problems I have with our over reliance on ever changing
>technology with limited life time support. So our new dishwasher has
>in-built WiFi (no I'm not sure why I'd use it either) and I seriously
>doubt that in five or so years time the required app will work on the
>devices I have. Now in this case it's no biggy as I can't say I'm that
>interested in being able to start it, and monitor progress, on my phone
>but it does highlight the issue. Build a device that you might expect to
>have for many years falls down if it relies in technology that won't
>last that long.
>
>/mini-rant end

It's not so much the technology itself as the devices being tied to a
central vendor that doesn't open up its APIs. Arguably, a dishwasher
(or fridge, or whatever) is a useful thing.* But if it's tied to an
app that only the vendor controls, its utility will last only as long
as that vendor is interested in keeping that app up to date. And
vendors - which are very much interested in you buying the latest and
greatest - are disincentivized from supporting older products for very
long.

If the device had an open API, third-parties (including yourself,
assuming you had the skill) could write their own interface that could
ensure the device would remain functional for as long as the hardware
keeps working. But too few devices offer this as an option. In many
ways, the PC remains a lone bastion to this ideal, with even cars and
lawnmowers tightly tied to the manufacturer's apron-strings these
days.

I was more fortunate with my Kindle than you. I bought a 7" Kindle
Fire years ago. The Fire is Amazon's cheapest model, and is largely
designed as a portal into Amazon's marketplace; sure, you can use it
to surf the web or read eBooks, but not without numerous adverts for
Amazon products shoved in your face. But because it was subsidized by
advertising, it was amazingly inexpensive. And - much to Amazon's
chagrin at the time - it was 100% possible to remove their OS and put
an un-Amazon'd version of Android in its place.** Which is what I did,
and - thanks to the occasional upgrade - it remains useful to this
day.

It's why I look at Microsoft's shenanigans with unlicensed controllers
on the XBox with such concern; the goal of these corporations is to
lock down our devices so tightly that we can only ever use them with
the corporation's permission. Not in any other way except as they see
fit, and only as long as they allow it. And with Microsoft being such
a domineering force on PCs, I really don't like the idea of them
advancing this philosophy onto my platform of choice.

TL;DR: the problem isn't that the tech is going obsolete; the problem
is that corporations are forcing obsolescence upon us long before the
devices stop being useful.

=============
* I mean, I don't really see the use but I'll accept people's
assertions that it has functionality they rely on
** later versions of the Kindle Fire removed this loophole

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:59:08 +0000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
wrote:

>So our new dishwasher has
>in-built WiFi (no I'm not sure why I'd use it either) and I seriously
>doubt that in five or so years time the required app will work on the
>devices I have.

Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick, why the hell did you do that? I just
bought an air purifier, and I actually bought the more expensive model
because it didn't want to connect to my phone. Like a $100 more
expensive. This is also because it wasn't crap from China, though.

My dishwasher is a Bosch. They know what relevant tech is and that not
everyone wants to live cyborg life.* It doesn't have a touch screen; it
has buttons. You _can_ get a goofy Internet dishwasher from them, that
will break all your dishes and fire the glass shards at you when Bing
becomes Skynet, but they have plenty of models that don't. This one was
praised for reliability by Consumer Reports. That's probably because it
has _buttons_.**

I also just bought a 2020 Mitsubishi Outlander that has truly useful
safety features, but not the unnecessary crap like autopark, park assist,
adaptive cruise control, following distance management, automatic
steering correction, engine idle shut down, etc. It has a sane set of
features like blind spot alert, FCM, and lane change warnings. It only
warns, excepting FCM, and you can turn the beeping down to a whisper so
it doesn't jump scare you.*** You can also turn everything OFF with
actual physical buttons.

There's a video screen console that lets me do Android Auto. I consider
this necessary tech at this point. But it's the entertainment system, not
the car's control center. The heater? Not part of the entertainment
system. Not controlled by the touchscreen. IT HAS DIALS. That's the best
safety feature on the car, AFAIC. I see people messing with menus all the
time just trying to turn the vents up. It's not safe.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

* Because they are German.

** German customers worry about engineering and things like multiple
unnecessary points of failure and replaceable parts.

*** I rented a Jeep Cherokee last month, and the safety system alarms
nearly made me leave my seat. It was either that or "off." I chose "off,"
but what I wanted was "quiet."

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:56:06 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>It's not so much the technology itself as the devices being tied to a
>central vendor that doesn't open up its APIs. Arguably, a dishwasher
>(or fridge, or whatever) is a useful thing.* But if it's tied to an
>app that only the vendor controls, its utility will last only as long
>as that vendor is interested in keeping that app up to date.

Not necessarily.. The washing machine we have has wi-fi, an app where
you can do things like start/monitor it remotely, create custom
program functionality, download a bunch of predefined programs that
aren't available by default from the front panel, etc.

But I've never connected it to a network (don't plan to) nor have I
downloaded the app. I bought it because it was considered one of the
best models available without even including the wifi features, and I
have plenty of toys to tinker with already (and don't need more unless
they bring identifiable value or convenience).

So I don't really care how long the companion phone app is supported
or anything like that. I consider those bells and whistles more for
people who want them or have a very specific use case where it makes
sense for them. Most clothes washers will wash clothes well enough,
so factors that were more important to me were how loud the spin cycle
is, how durable is it relative to other brands, etc.

I see all the unnecessary wi-fi features as mostly marketing tools,
product differentiation, etc.

>And
>vendors - which are very much interested in you buying the latest and
>greatest - are disincentivized from supporting older products for very
>long.

This much is probably true... as mentioned, these bells and whistles
are mostly marketing gimmicks anyway that nobody really needs, so if
any strategy they can find will sell more units, I'm sure they will
seize the opportunity....

.... but at the same time most appliance manufacturers have at least
one person in senior management who isn't a total idiot and realizes
that the brand's reliability reputation is probably an even MORE
important marketing factor than any shiny, unnecessary technology. In
fact a lot of buyers already look at appliance purchases as "more
features just means more shit that can go wrong". So I'm fairly sure
in most manufacturing companies, intentional obsolescence isn't quite
the direct goal that many tinfoil hat consumers would like to believe.

>If the device had an open API, third-parties (including yourself,
>assuming you had the skill) could write their own interface that could
>ensure the device would remain functional for as long as the hardware
>keeps working. But too few devices offer this as an option.

In music tech, there have been a lot of products that emerge that are
"open" for third-parties. I admit, in theory, it's a good idea, but
the reality of these devices almost always ends up underwhelming.

I do have one Korg synth which has kind of a nifty architecture, where
any developer can create their own oscillators to publish or sell for
it... and I've tried a few of them, and it's an interesting novelty,
but at the same time the USB implementation of the device is screwy,
not class compliant, thus requires a special driver which is very
picky about the numerical order with which the driver appears in the
audio device driver list. That's right, sometimes you have to fuck
with the registry to try to get the driver to sit in that specific
position, and even when you do get it to stay, sometimes it gets
reordered on the next reboot. So even though they added an innovative
"selling point" (key concept) of open-architecture, they fundamentally
botched much more important features such as class compliance
standards (and in a way that nobody can fix). Ironic huh? Creating
openness while failing to adhere to an open standard.

For most manufacturers, absorbing cost to make a product extensible by
third parties runs such a risk of making that same product costly to
support (and blurs the lines of who should support what), that the
results almost never justify the expense and effort.

On 17/11/2023 00:14, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:59:08 +0000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
> wrote:
>
>> So our new dishwasher has
>> in-built WiFi (no I'm not sure why I'd use it either) and I seriously
>> doubt that in five or so years time the required app will work on the
>> devices I have.
>
> Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick, why the hell did you do that? I just
> bought an air purifier, and I actually bought the more expensive model
> because it didn't want to connect to my phone. Like a $100 more
> expensive. This is also because it wasn't crap from China, though.
>
> My dishwasher is a Bosch. They know what relevant tech is and that not
> everyone wants to live cyborg life.* It doesn't have a touch screen; it
> has buttons. You _can_ get a goofy Internet dishwasher from them, that
> will break all your dishes and fire the glass shards at you when Bing
> becomes Skynet, but they have plenty of models that don't. This one was
> praised for reliability by Consumer Reports. That's probably because it
> has _buttons_.**
>

Sorry should have made that clearer. The dishwasher (a Bosch and brought
because yes they are more expensive but they do tend to last) has an app
but it's purely optional and everything is done with buttons but it does
have a small LCD display to tell you things like you need to add more
salt*. To be honest it feels like the WiFi capability is just there as a
gimmick as that's what some people expect out of an expensive item.

*It even has a setting for how hard you water is and when I looked at
the manual it reminded of just hard the water is like in our area. The
hardness is way above the top setting.

> I also just bought a 2020 Mitsubishi Outlander that has truly useful
> safety features, but not the unnecessary crap like autopark, park assist,
> adaptive cruise control, following distance management, automatic
> steering correction, engine idle shut down, etc. It has a sane set of
> features like blind spot alert, FCM, and lane change warnings. It only
> warns, excepting FCM, and you can turn the beeping down to a whisper so
> it doesn't jump scare you.*** You can also turn everything OFF with
> actual physical buttons.
>
> There's a video screen console that lets me do Android Auto. I consider
> this necessary tech at this point. But it's the entertainment system, not
> the car's control center. The heater? Not part of the entertainment
> system. Not controlled by the touchscreen. IT HAS DIALS. That's the best
> safety feature on the car, AFAIC. I see people messing with menus all the
> time just trying to turn the vents up. It's not safe.
>

Our car was made before in-built consoles were a thing so it's all
buttons and the most advanced safety feature is ABS which has been used
the grand total of once.

The new CD/Radio I had to get fitted does have the ability to make your
phone hands free but I've never seen the need to connect it up and
personally I don't won't to be distracted by phone calls and if it's
important they can leave me a message. If I need to use GPS I just use
my phone. A thing to remember is I live in the UK and that doesn't have
the type of car culture that you see in the US**. I don't spend that
much time in the car and if it's a long journey we get the train which
is far more relaxing. It also doesn't help that for large swathes of the
country we have to go via a motorway called the M25 that is notorious
for congestion.

**Not that it stopped our every growing lunatic fringe claiming that
15min cities were some kinda of Marxist plot that would control how far
we could travel and it was a war on motorists. Strangely enough in the
60's and 70's the idea, although not explicitly called that, was baked
into large housing developments. So you'd get a small number of shops
for everyday needs, a doctors, post office, schools etc. and of course
at least one pub. Nobody seemed to complain about it then.

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 09:19:52 +0000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
wrote:

>On 17/11/2023 00:14, Zaghadka wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:59:08 +0000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So our new dishwasher has
>>> in-built WiFi (no I'm not sure why I'd use it either) and I seriously
>>> doubt that in five or so years time the required app will work on the
>>> devices I have.
>>
>> Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick, why the hell did you do that? I just
>> bought an air purifier, and I actually bought the more expensive model
>> because it didn't want to connect to my phone. Like a $100 more
>> expensive. This is also because it wasn't crap from China, though.
>>
>> My dishwasher is a Bosch. They know what relevant tech is and that not
>> everyone wants to live cyborg life.* It doesn't have a touch screen; it
>> has buttons. You _can_ get a goofy Internet dishwasher from them, that
>> will break all your dishes and fire the glass shards at you when Bing
>> becomes Skynet, but they have plenty of models that don't. This one was
>> praised for reliability by Consumer Reports. That's probably because it
>> has _buttons_.**
>>
>
>Sorry should have made that clearer. The dishwasher (a Bosch and brought
>because yes they are more expensive but they do tend to last) has an app
>but it's purely optional and everything is done with buttons but it does
>have a small LCD display to tell you things like you need to add more
>salt*. To be honest it feels like the WiFi capability is just there as a
>gimmick as that's what some people expect out of an expensive item.
>
>*It even has a setting for how hard you water is and when I looked at
>the manual it reminded of just hard the water is like in our area. The
>hardness is way above the top setting.

Ah. Awesome. I am no longer shocked and dismayed. You are once again a
sensible gentleman in my eyes. It's a small comfort I'm sure.

My water is so hard here I have a whole house softener in the basement.
And yeah, it's still not enough. I think the aquifer is under a lime
quarry or something. The dishwasher shows no signs of calcification after
several years though. German engineering ftw. We run through a lot of CLR
and vinegar in my house.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On 17/11/2023 12:00, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 09:19:52 +0000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
> wrote:
>
>> On 17/11/2023 00:14, Zaghadka wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:59:08 +0000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So our new dishwasher has
>>>> in-built WiFi (no I'm not sure why I'd use it either) and I seriously
>>>> doubt that in five or so years time the required app will work on the
>>>> devices I have.
>>>
>>> Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick, why the hell did you do that? I just
>>> bought an air purifier, and I actually bought the more expensive model
>>> because it didn't want to connect to my phone. Like a $100 more
>>> expensive. This is also because it wasn't crap from China, though.
>>>
>>> My dishwasher is a Bosch. They know what relevant tech is and that not
>>> everyone wants to live cyborg life.* It doesn't have a touch screen; it
>>> has buttons. You _can_ get a goofy Internet dishwasher from them, that
>>> will break all your dishes and fire the glass shards at you when Bing
>>> becomes Skynet, but they have plenty of models that don't. This one was
>>> praised for reliability by Consumer Reports. That's probably because it
>>> has _buttons_.**
>>>
>>
>> Sorry should have made that clearer. The dishwasher (a Bosch and brought
>> because yes they are more expensive but they do tend to last) has an app
>> but it's purely optional and everything is done with buttons but it does
>> have a small LCD display to tell you things like you need to add more
>> salt*. To be honest it feels like the WiFi capability is just there as a
>> gimmick as that's what some people expect out of an expensive item.
>>
>> *It even has a setting for how hard you water is and when I looked at
>> the manual it reminded of just hard the water is like in our area. The
>> hardness is way above the top setting.
>
> Ah. Awesome. I am no longer shocked and dismayed. You are once again a
> sensible gentleman in my eyes. It's a small comfort I'm sure.
>
> My water is so hard here I have a whole house softener in the basement.
> And yeah, it's still not enough. I think the aquifer is under a lime
> quarry or something. The dishwasher shows no signs of calcification after
> several years though. German engineering ftw. We run through a lot of CLR
> and vinegar in my house.
>

Just a quarry you say. Where I am in the UK it's basically chalk
everywhere so yes we also have an ample supply of descaling products!

Am 17.11.23 um 02:19 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
> Not necessarily.. The washing machine we have has wi-fi, an app where
> you can do things like start/monitor it remotely, create custom
> program functionality, download a bunch of predefined programs that
> aren't available by default from the front panel, etc.
I have started to have my own home assist automation server, so that
whatever I need data from automation and automation tasks stays within
the home, this also gives me leverage because I am not connected to the
cloud, and no manufacturer can shut this down!

Thats the advantage if you have electronics sort of as a hobby and if
you start to dabble with microcontrollers, you get more leveral to avoid
the biggest stupidities from manufacturers.

ATM I am cloud dependend with my Panasonic ACs, but theoretically I can
decloud them and keep the ip remoting within my network, a friend of
mine already did that!

Alexa... Google home, no way jose...

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 12:29:24 +0100, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:

>Am 17.11.23 um 02:19 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
>> Not necessarily.. The washing machine we have has wi-fi, an app where
>> you can do things like start/monitor it remotely, create custom
>> program functionality, download a bunch of predefined programs that
>> aren't available by default from the front panel, etc.
>I have started to have my own home assist automation server, so that
>whatever I need data from automation and automation tasks stays within
>the home, this also gives me leverage because I am not connected to the
>cloud, and no manufacturer can shut this down!
>
>Thats the advantage if you have electronics sort of as a hobby and if
>you start to dabble with microcontrollers, you get more leveral to avoid
>the biggest stupidities from manufacturers.
>
>ATM I am cloud dependend with my Panasonic ACs, but theoretically I can
>decloud them and keep the ip remoting within my network, a friend of
>mine already did that!
>
>Alexa... Google home, no way jose...

Hopefully I didn't give the impression that I am anti-automation in
any way. I just feel that the default presets on the washing machine
are all I will ever need, so I couldn't see a strong use case for
connectivity. I suppose it would be nice to be able to load the
washer and start it remotely before leaving the office so the wash
cycle was finishing right about as I walk in the door, but I'm not
always the one washing clothes and when I do it doesn't take very long
for the wash cycle (compared to drying at least), so it didn't seem
worth the hassle. I used to care somewhat about the timing of the
wash cycle, because letting the clothes wash when I would not be
available to immediately move them to the dryer sometimes meant extra
wrinkles... but getting a dryer with a steam cycle (highly underrated
featre) solved that problem nicely.

Where I do use the mobile app integration and a lot of bells and
whistles is on my car. It's nice to be able to pull out the phone app
and remote start it... my primary gym is large, and on crowded days
when I have to park far from the building, the walk from my parking
spot to the locker room can be significant....in those cases it's nice
to pull out the phone and remote start the car. Same goes for remote
starting it from the office a couple of minutes before I leave the
building. On excessively cold or hot days, it's nice to get into a
vehicle that's perfectly pre-heated or air conditioned the moment you
get in.

And that's not to mention the automation in the car itself. While
CarPlay comes in handy and I almost always have Waze running in the
background (I like the audio alerts like "police spotted ahead" etc),
I still prefer the Spotify app built into the car that connects direct
to wi-fi, integrates with the HUD etc.

As far as long-term support for all of this, at least in the case of
vehicle gadgetry, support for the tech stuff will probably outlast my
ownership of any one car, so I don't see it as an issue.

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:13:31 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, Rin
Stowleigh wrote:

>I suppose it would be nice to be able to load the
>washer and start it remotely before leaving the office so the wash
>cycle was finishing right about as I walk in the door

Something easily achieved by putting a clock and timer on the thing.
Ovens have had this for more than half a century. Shit, my Grind and Brew
coffee maker has one.

Naw. It's "Oooh Shiney!" It will end in a vast colossus of plastic,
wiring, and steel that comes for our heads. Like Trapper Keeper on South
Park.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On 11/18/2023 5:13 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 12:29:24 +0100, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> Am 17.11.23 um 02:19 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
>>> Not necessarily.. The washing machine we have has wi-fi, an app where
>>> you can do things like start/monitor it remotely, create custom
>>> program functionality, download a bunch of predefined programs that
>>> aren't available by default from the front panel, etc.
>> I have started to have my own home assist automation server, so that
>> whatever I need data from automation and automation tasks stays within
>> the home, this also gives me leverage because I am not connected to the
>> cloud, and no manufacturer can shut this down!
>>
>> Thats the advantage if you have electronics sort of as a hobby and if
>> you start to dabble with microcontrollers, you get more leveral to avoid
>> the biggest stupidities from manufacturers.
>>
>> ATM I am cloud dependend with my Panasonic ACs, but theoretically I can
>> decloud them and keep the ip remoting within my network, a friend of
>> mine already did that!
>>
>> Alexa... Google home, no way jose...
>
> Hopefully I didn't give the impression that I am anti-automation in
> any way. I just feel that the default presets on the washing machine
> are all I will ever need, so I couldn't see a strong use case for
> connectivity. I suppose it would be nice to be able to load the
> washer and start it remotely before leaving the office so the wash
> cycle was finishing right about as I walk in the door, but I'm not
> always the one washing clothes and when I do it doesn't take very long
> for the wash cycle (compared to drying at least), so it didn't seem
> worth the hassle. I used to care somewhat about the timing of the
> wash cycle, because letting the clothes wash when I would not be
> available to immediately move them to the dryer sometimes meant extra
> wrinkles... but getting a dryer with a steam cycle (highly underrated
> featre) solved that problem nicely.
>
> Where I do use the mobile app integration and a lot of bells and
> whistles is on my car. It's nice to be able to pull out the phone app
> and remote start it... my primary gym is large, and on crowded days
> when I have to park far from the building, the walk from my parking
> spot to the locker room can be significant....in those cases it's nice
> to pull out the phone and remote start the car. Same goes for remote
> starting it from the office a couple of minutes before I leave the
> building. On excessively cold or hot days, it's nice to get into a
> vehicle that's perfectly pre-heated or air conditioned the moment you
> get in.
>
And now I'm picturing someone waiting in the parking lot, listening for
a car to be remotely started and hoping in it.... ;)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:24:24 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 11/18/2023 5:13 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 12:29:24 +0100, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 17.11.23 um 02:19 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
>>>> Not necessarily.. The washing machine we have has wi-fi, an app where
>>>> you can do things like start/monitor it remotely, create custom
>>>> program functionality, download a bunch of predefined programs that
>>>> aren't available by default from the front panel, etc.
>>> I have started to have my own home assist automation server, so that
>>> whatever I need data from automation and automation tasks stays within
>>> the home, this also gives me leverage because I am not connected to the
>>> cloud, and no manufacturer can shut this down!
>>>
>>> Thats the advantage if you have electronics sort of as a hobby and if
>>> you start to dabble with microcontrollers, you get more leveral to avoid
>>> the biggest stupidities from manufacturers.
>>>
>>> ATM I am cloud dependend with my Panasonic ACs, but theoretically I can
>>> decloud them and keep the ip remoting within my network, a friend of
>>> mine already did that!
>>>
>>> Alexa... Google home, no way jose...
>>
>> Hopefully I didn't give the impression that I am anti-automation in
>> any way. I just feel that the default presets on the washing machine
>> are all I will ever need, so I couldn't see a strong use case for
>> connectivity. I suppose it would be nice to be able to load the
>> washer and start it remotely before leaving the office so the wash
>> cycle was finishing right about as I walk in the door, but I'm not
>> always the one washing clothes and when I do it doesn't take very long
>> for the wash cycle (compared to drying at least), so it didn't seem
>> worth the hassle. I used to care somewhat about the timing of the
>> wash cycle, because letting the clothes wash when I would not be
>> available to immediately move them to the dryer sometimes meant extra
>> wrinkles... but getting a dryer with a steam cycle (highly underrated
>> featre) solved that problem nicely.
>>
>> Where I do use the mobile app integration and a lot of bells and
>> whistles is on my car. It's nice to be able to pull out the phone app
>> and remote start it... my primary gym is large, and on crowded days
>> when I have to park far from the building, the walk from my parking
>> spot to the locker room can be significant....in those cases it's nice
>> to pull out the phone and remote start the car. Same goes for remote
>> starting it from the office a couple of minutes before I leave the
>> building. On excessively cold or hot days, it's nice to get into a
>> vehicle that's perfectly pre-heated or air conditioned the moment you
>> get in.
>>
>And now I'm picturing someone waiting in the parking lot, listening for
>a car to be remotely started and hoping in it.... ;)

Not even *remotely* (serendipitous pun) possible.

It actually detects if the keyfob is inside the car, and it's not
going anywhere unless that's detected. Not to mention, the camera
system has already gotten clear panoramic video of anyone who even
accidentally bumps into the thing and stored it in the cloud (not only
from a panoramic view, but also a top-down view that is a "calculated
image" -- looks like it is taken from a drone above the car). That's
not even taking into consideration that since the door won't unlock
without the keyfob, the phone app, or a keycard, or remote assistance,
they would need to break the window (which would disable the car
anyway).

The last time I looked, this particular model of luxury european brand
(no point getting too specific) was consistently in the top 1-3 least
stolen vehicles out there, and insurance premiums discounted as a
result... Not to mention the car could be disabled remotely (and its
position determined) way faster than any criminal could figure out
creative ways of bypassing all of the anti-theft mechanisms.

As far as I can tell, most car thieves go for less expensive vehicles
with less advanced anti-theft technologies... the high-end stuff is
too much of a pain in the ass. Easier to just steal a catalytic
converter off an old car and sell that for the most part.

On 11/18/2023 9:01 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:24:24 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/18/2023 5:13 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 12:29:24 +0100, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 17.11.23 um 02:19 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
>>>>> Not necessarily.. The washing machine we have has wi-fi, an app where
>>>>> you can do things like start/monitor it remotely, create custom
>>>>> program functionality, download a bunch of predefined programs that
>>>>> aren't available by default from the front panel, etc.
>>>> I have started to have my own home assist automation server, so that
>>>> whatever I need data from automation and automation tasks stays within
>>>> the home, this also gives me leverage because I am not connected to the
>>>> cloud, and no manufacturer can shut this down!
>>>>
>>>> Thats the advantage if you have electronics sort of as a hobby and if
>>>> you start to dabble with microcontrollers, you get more leveral to avoid
>>>> the biggest stupidities from manufacturers.
>>>>
>>>> ATM I am cloud dependend with my Panasonic ACs, but theoretically I can
>>>> decloud them and keep the ip remoting within my network, a friend of
>>>> mine already did that!
>>>>
>>>> Alexa... Google home, no way jose...
>>>
>>> Hopefully I didn't give the impression that I am anti-automation in
>>> any way. I just feel that the default presets on the washing machine
>>> are all I will ever need, so I couldn't see a strong use case for
>>> connectivity. I suppose it would be nice to be able to load the
>>> washer and start it remotely before leaving the office so the wash
>>> cycle was finishing right about as I walk in the door, but I'm not
>>> always the one washing clothes and when I do it doesn't take very long
>>> for the wash cycle (compared to drying at least), so it didn't seem
>>> worth the hassle. I used to care somewhat about the timing of the
>>> wash cycle, because letting the clothes wash when I would not be
>>> available to immediately move them to the dryer sometimes meant extra
>>> wrinkles... but getting a dryer with a steam cycle (highly underrated
>>> featre) solved that problem nicely.
>>>
>>> Where I do use the mobile app integration and a lot of bells and
>>> whistles is on my car. It's nice to be able to pull out the phone app
>>> and remote start it... my primary gym is large, and on crowded days
>>> when I have to park far from the building, the walk from my parking
>>> spot to the locker room can be significant....in those cases it's nice
>>> to pull out the phone and remote start the car. Same goes for remote
>>> starting it from the office a couple of minutes before I leave the
>>> building. On excessively cold or hot days, it's nice to get into a
>>> vehicle that's perfectly pre-heated or air conditioned the moment you
>>> get in.
>>>
>> And now I'm picturing someone waiting in the parking lot, listening for
>> a car to be remotely started and hoping in it.... ;)
>
> Not even *remotely* (serendipitous pun) possible.
>
> It actually detects if the keyfob is inside the car, and it's not
> going anywhere unless that's detected. Not to mention, the camera
> system has already gotten clear panoramic video of anyone who even
> accidentally bumps into the thing and stored it in the cloud (not only
> from a panoramic view, but also a top-down view that is a "calculated
> image" -- looks like it is taken from a drone above the car). That's
> not even taking into consideration that since the door won't unlock
> without the keyfob, the phone app, or a keycard, or remote assistance,
> they would need to break the window (which would disable the car
> anyway).
>
> The last time I looked, this particular model of luxury european brand
> (no point getting too specific) was consistently in the top 1-3 least
> stolen vehicles out there, and insurance premiums discounted as a
> result... Not to mention the car could be disabled remotely (and its
> position determined) way faster than any criminal could figure out
> creative ways of bypassing all of the anti-theft mechanisms.
>
> As far as I can tell, most car thieves go for less expensive vehicles
> with less advanced anti-theft technologies... the high-end stuff is
> too much of a pain in the ass. Easier to just steal a catalytic
> converter off an old car and sell that for the most part.

That's _your_ car. I suspect that many models with remote start are not
so security conscious.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 11:33:44 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 11/18/2023 9:01 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:24:24 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/18/2023 5:13 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 12:29:24 +0100, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 17.11.23 um 02:19 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
>>>>>> Not necessarily.. The washing machine we have has wi-fi, an app where
>>>>>> you can do things like start/monitor it remotely, create custom
>>>>>> program functionality, download a bunch of predefined programs that
>>>>>> aren't available by default from the front panel, etc.
>>>>> I have started to have my own home assist automation server, so that
>>>>> whatever I need data from automation and automation tasks stays within
>>>>> the home, this also gives me leverage because I am not connected to the
>>>>> cloud, and no manufacturer can shut this down!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thats the advantage if you have electronics sort of as a hobby and if
>>>>> you start to dabble with microcontrollers, you get more leveral to avoid
>>>>> the biggest stupidities from manufacturers.
>>>>>
>>>>> ATM I am cloud dependend with my Panasonic ACs, but theoretically I can
>>>>> decloud them and keep the ip remoting within my network, a friend of
>>>>> mine already did that!
>>>>>
>>>>> Alexa... Google home, no way jose...
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully I didn't give the impression that I am anti-automation in
>>>> any way. I just feel that the default presets on the washing machine
>>>> are all I will ever need, so I couldn't see a strong use case for
>>>> connectivity. I suppose it would be nice to be able to load the
>>>> washer and start it remotely before leaving the office so the wash
>>>> cycle was finishing right about as I walk in the door, but I'm not
>>>> always the one washing clothes and when I do it doesn't take very long
>>>> for the wash cycle (compared to drying at least), so it didn't seem
>>>> worth the hassle. I used to care somewhat about the timing of the
>>>> wash cycle, because letting the clothes wash when I would not be
>>>> available to immediately move them to the dryer sometimes meant extra
>>>> wrinkles... but getting a dryer with a steam cycle (highly underrated
>>>> featre) solved that problem nicely.
>>>>
>>>> Where I do use the mobile app integration and a lot of bells and
>>>> whistles is on my car. It's nice to be able to pull out the phone app
>>>> and remote start it... my primary gym is large, and on crowded days
>>>> when I have to park far from the building, the walk from my parking
>>>> spot to the locker room can be significant....in those cases it's nice
>>>> to pull out the phone and remote start the car. Same goes for remote
>>>> starting it from the office a couple of minutes before I leave the
>>>> building. On excessively cold or hot days, it's nice to get into a
>>>> vehicle that's perfectly pre-heated or air conditioned the moment you
>>>> get in.
>>>>
>>> And now I'm picturing someone waiting in the parking lot, listening for
>>> a car to be remotely started and hoping in it.... ;)
>>
>> Not even *remotely* (serendipitous pun) possible.
>>
>> It actually detects if the keyfob is inside the car, and it's not
>> going anywhere unless that's detected. Not to mention, the camera
>> system has already gotten clear panoramic video of anyone who even
>> accidentally bumps into the thing and stored it in the cloud (not only
>> from a panoramic view, but also a top-down view that is a "calculated
>> image" -- looks like it is taken from a drone above the car). That's
>> not even taking into consideration that since the door won't unlock
>> without the keyfob, the phone app, or a keycard, or remote assistance,
>> they would need to break the window (which would disable the car
>> anyway).
>>
>> The last time I looked, this particular model of luxury european brand
>> (no point getting too specific) was consistently in the top 1-3 least
>> stolen vehicles out there, and insurance premiums discounted as a
>> result... Not to mention the car could be disabled remotely (and its
>> position determined) way faster than any criminal could figure out
>> creative ways of bypassing all of the anti-theft mechanisms.
>>
>> As far as I can tell, most car thieves go for less expensive vehicles
>> with less advanced anti-theft technologies... the high-end stuff is
>> too much of a pain in the ass. Easier to just steal a catalytic
>> converter off an old car and sell that for the most part.
>
>That's _your_ car. I suspect that many models with remote start are not
>so security conscious.

It's possible, as I typically only research car models I'm interested
in.. There is such a thing as remote start only from the distance of
the keyfob (i.e. start the car in the garage from a few feet away
without opening the door and sitting in it yet) and not the mobile app
integration. But once you're talking about starting from the mobile
app, it points to the presence of a mobile hot spot in the car and
with that usually comes a lot of other security features.