Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote

> So, while they are still all on sale, you're getting a 3-6 year old OS and a
> lack of security updates.

There are at least three ways, fundamentally, to approach your objections.

The first is the way you're approaching it - which seems to be that you're
saying the reason they're not updating the Android OS to the next major
version and/or they're not updating the hotfix patches where needed is
because the processor is not a Qualcomm processor - but I'm not sure that
the version of Android is expressly dependent on the processor since they
can port Android to almost anything they "want" to port Android to, right?

Moving forward to your stated problem set (ignoring the processor
hardware), there are still two more ways to look at the problem set.

One is to realize it's a business decision by the manufacturer of the phone
whether or not they want to support another Android version - and likewise,
it's another business decision by the maker of the phone whether or not
they want to support hotfixes - and yet - there are already other business
decisions made by Google and developers to support _all_ phones that are
Android for dozens of the most critical core modules which are updated
using the Google Play Services mechanism (aka Project Mainline).

The more liberal third way to look at the problem set is to realize that
Android is a mature operating system - where nobody really cares what the
major version of the operating system is - given almost anything that's new
has been back ported to the older versions long ago - and there isn't all
that much which is new (which is what happens with mature platforms).

What people care about, more than an almost meaningless Android major
version number, are the hotfix patches - which - as I already said - are
happening to every Android phone in existence already - via the Project
Mainline Google Play Systems updates (unless you turned them off).

I repeat - you're already getting hotfix patches to _dozens_ of critical
Android modules - and you've been getting them seamlessly for years - ever
since Android 4.4 - so never say you're not getting plenty of hotfixes.

What you're NOT getting are the ten times as many zero-day exploits that
iPhones have where those exploits are expressly because iOS does NOT have
the kind of seamless daily update to scores of critical operating system
modules every single day - to _billions_ of Android phones of version 4.4+.
https://www.cisa.gov/known-exploited-vulnerabilities-catalog

... What would you rather have? ...

An iPhone whose number of zero-day holes is astronomical, and getting worse
year over year to the tune of twice a month and, even worse, an iPhone
whose full hotfix support instantly dies the moment a new release is
shipped, and, *as a result, has _ten times_ as many _active_ exploits*...

... or ...

An Android which is malware scanned upon every installation and scanned
every day and which is seamlessly updated daily (over the Google Play
System daily) for over two dozen critical modules no matter how old that
Android phone is (as long as it's Android 4.4 or higher)?

... Your choice ...

On 2023-09-01 15:07, Wally J wrote:
> An iPhone whose number of zero-day holes is astronomical, and getting worse
> year over year to the tune of twice a month and, even worse, an iPhone
> whose full hotfix support instantly dies the moment a new release is
> shipped, and,*as a result, has _ten times_ as many _active_ exploits*...

There is no new iPhone you can buy whose full support "dies the moment a
new release is shipped", Arlen...

....or should I just call you Liar from now on?

"Arlen the Liar" perhaps (adding a texting shortcut).

On 2023-09-01 18:07, Wally J wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote
>
>> So, while they are still all on sale, you're getting a 3-6 year old OS and a
>> lack of security updates.
>
> There are at least three ways, fundamentally, to approach your objections.

....

> What people care about, more than an almost meaningless Android major
> version number, are the hotfix patches - which - as I already said - are
> happening to every Android phone in existence already - via the Project
> Mainline Google Play Systems updates (unless you turned them off).

No.

I don't get updates automatically on any of my "old" phones. Meaning the
manufacturer doesn't provide them.

I only get application updates, and not on all apps. Some apps even
disappear.

>
> I repeat - you're already getting hotfix patches to _dozens_ of critical
> Android modules - and you've been getting them seamlessly for years - ever
> since Android 4.4 - so never say you're not getting plenty of hotfixes.

No, I don't.

....

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

>> What people care about, more than an almost meaningless Android major
>> version number, are the hotfix patches - which - as I already said - are
>> happening to every Android phone in existence already - via the Project
>> Mainline Google Play Systems updates (unless you turned them off).
>
> No.

Hi Carlos,

Yes. What you don't understand is Android updates in a series of layers.
<https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/>

Your phone has been updating scores of critical hardware and software
components of your operating system from Android 4.4 to Android 14.
<https://venturebeat.com/business/google-details-project-mainline-updating-android-modules-via-google-play/>

Project Mainline has been updating all Android phones since 2019.
<https://www.howtogeek.com/413714/what-is-androids-project-mainline-and-when-will-my-phone-get-it/>

Where the number of modules seamlessly updated over the Google Framework
increases with every Android version (soon it may be the entire OS!).
<https://www.androidpolice.com/project-mainline-android-14/>

All this is completely independent of the manufacturer or carrier support!
<https://www.xda-developers.com/google-android-runtime-art-mainline-module-android-12/>

> I don't get updates automatically on any of my "old" phones. Meaning the
> manufacturer doesn't provide them.

Sigh. If I'm patient with you, I have to first inform you, as I did with
badgolferman, that the concept of "updates" is far more complex than you
seem to comprehend - which - isn't your fault - but which is clear to me.
<https://www.esper.io/blog/what-is-project-mainline>

Only someone with adult comprehensive skills can comprehend that the word
"updates" is too generic for you to make the sweeping claim you just made.
<https://www.droidviews.com/googles-project-mainline/>

As badgolferman did before you, nobody stands a chance of comprehending
what it means to "update" iOS or Android if they don't first understand
_how_ Android and iOS update (which clearly you do not understand).
<https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/>

One critical part of the way Android updates daily, is Project Mainline.
<https://www.droidviews.com/googles-project-mainline/>
> I only get application updates, and not on all apps. Some apps even
> disappear.

I can't count the number of times I've explained Project Mainline on this
newsgroup - so if, after a thousand times, you _still_ don't get it, how am
I going to explain it to you once more and you'll finally get what it is?
<https://source.android.com/docs/core/ota/modular-system>

The fact is, if your Android phone or tablet is Android 4.4 or above, you
_are_ getting updates to the tune of thousands of updates every year.
<https://www.androidcentral.com/project-mainline>

This is why I told badgolferman that in the course of the five or six iOS
version updates he gets on his iPhone, an Android user is getting five or
six thousand updates on his Android device - due to Project Mainline.
<https://www.androidauthority.com/google-project-mainline-984001/>

>> I repeat - you're already getting hotfix patches to _dozens_ of critical
>> Android modules - and you've been getting them seamlessly for years - ever
>> since Android 4.4 - so never say you're not getting plenty of hotfixes.
>
> No, I don't.

Yes. You do. Ever since Android 4.4 you have been getting updates daily.
<https://www.realmicentral.com/2022/02/11/project-mainline-grows-with-android-13-more-updates-go-through-google-play/>

Every operating system (except iOS!) updates continuously, in complex
layers whereas only iOS (excepting the new RSRs) is a primitive monolith.
iOS UPDATE monoslab vs UPGRADE monoslab vs RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE patch:
<https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/about-software-updates-depc4c80847a/>

iOS RSR patches:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201224>

iOS UPGRADES:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222>
--
It's no longer shocking how little most people understand about updates.
Most people seem to own a child-like comprehension of technical issues.
The iKooks, for example, have _never_ clicked on a single link provided!
Even the Android users own a child-like comprehension of how s/w updates.

On 2023-09-02 11:53, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
>>> What people care about, more than an almost meaningless Android major
>>> version number, are the hotfix patches - which - as I already said - are
>>> happening to every Android phone in existence already - via the Project
>>> Mainline Google Play Systems updates (unless you turned them off).
>>
>> No.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Yes. What you don't understand is Android updates in a series of layers.
> <https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/>
>
> Your phone has been updating scores of critical hardware and software
> components of your operating system from Android 4.4 to Android 14.
> <https://venturebeat.com/business/google-details-project-mainline-updating-android-modules-via-google-play/>
>
> Project Mainline has been updating all Android phones since 2019.
> <https://www.howtogeek.com/413714/what-is-androids-project-mainline-and-when-will-my-phone-get-it/>
>
> Where the number of modules seamlessly updated over the Google Framework
> increases with every Android version (soon it may be the entire OS!).
> <https://www.androidpolice.com/project-mainline-android-14/>
>
> All this is completely independent of the manufacturer or carrier support!
> <https://www.xda-developers.com/google-android-runtime-art-mainline-module-android-12/>
>
>> I don't get updates automatically on any of my "old" phones. Meaning the
>> manufacturer doesn't provide them.
>
> Sigh. If I'm patient with you, I have to first inform you, as I did with
> badgolferman, that the concept of "updates" is far more complex than you
> seem to comprehend - which - isn't your fault - but which is clear to me.
> <https://www.esper.io/blog/what-is-project-mainline>
>
> Only someone with adult comprehensive skills can comprehend that the word
> "updates" is too generic for you to make the sweeping claim you just made.
> <https://www.droidviews.com/googles-project-mainline/>
>
> As badgolferman did before you, nobody stands a chance of comprehending
> what it means to "update" iOS or Android if they don't first understand
> _how_ Android and iOS update (which clearly you do not understand).
> <https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/>
>
> One critical part of the way Android updates daily, is Project Mainline.
> <https://www.droidviews.com/googles-project-mainline/>

That doesn't count to me as "updates". It has to be done automatically
by the manufacturer, me doing nothing at all, to count.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

>> One critical part of the way Android updates daily, is Project Mainline.
>> <https://www.droidviews.com/googles-project-mainline/>
>
> That doesn't count to me as "updates". It has to be done automatically
> by the manufacturer, me doing nothing at all, to count.

Hi Carlos,

Sigh.

That sentiment is absurdly preposterous given it's like saying that you
don't count driver updates on Windows, for example, as updates - because
they don't come from the manufacturer of your computer (e.g., from Dell)...
or that you don't count browser updates, as updates, because they don't
come from Dell... or that you don't count firmware updates as updates,
because they don't come from Dell.

You don't have the comprehensive skills to understand that updates come
from a variety of sources (e.g., even Qualcomm firmware is now updated over
the Google Play System - read about Project Treble for more details).
<https://www.computerworld.com/article/3306443/what-is-project-treble-android-upgrade-fix-explained.html>

With your backward way of thinking, those Qualcomm firmware updates aren't
updates in your mind, because they didn't come from, oh, say, Samsung.

That's patently ridiculous, Carlos.
Insane, in fact.

It's clear that you have absolutely zero comprehension of how operating
systems update, where the only operating system you comprehend is iOS since
that is the only common consumer operating system where most of the updates
do come directly from the manufacturer.

The point is that people owning an adult level of comprehension of how
operating systems update will understand that updates are layered and that
they come from a variety of sources - depending on the type of update.

For example, unless you expressly opt out of Project Mainline Google Play
System updates, you're being updated thousands of times a year - even if
your phone goes way back to 2019 (when this process was started).

Meanwhile, in the time that iOS has had two or three updates, Android
phones have had two or three thousand updates - which - obviously - is a
key reason why iOS has more than twice as many zero-day holes and over ten
times as many _exploited_ zero-day holes than does Android.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

> Each system does updates differently.

Not really. Windows, Linux & Android update similarly.

> On Android, it is via manufacturers.

Sigh. That's just dead wrong. Insanely wrong. Incomprehensibly wrong.

It's like saying the only company that can make tires for your Honda is
Honda - which means you're making claims that are patently ridiculous.

Google is updating 37 modules over the Internet irrespective of who made
your phone (as long as the phone is Android 10 and above), Carlos.

Please Carlos - open your mind. If you read nothing else, read this.
<https://www.androidpolice.com/project-mainline-android-14/>

HINT: If you read nothing, you'll know nothing.

On 2023-09-02 22:46, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> Each system does updates differently.
>
> Not really. Windows, Linux & Android update similarly.

"similarly" is NOT "the same".

'NOT "the same" IS "differently".