So let's round out this selection of PC gaming classics and see how
well you know this next batch of 'classic games'. As with our previous
surveys, I've had to make a lot of very arbitrary decisions about what
to include and what not to include.

In fact, the 2004-2013 era was the one where I had the hardest time
making my selections. This was for a variety of reasons* but it means
that I am least certain that these games are deserving of the title,
and that I haven't missed many other far-more-deserving games.

Are all of these games classics? I'm not sure. But let's see how many
of them you've played anyway.

--------------

Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
A - I've completed the game multiple times
B - I've played it and completed it once
C - I've played it but never finished it
D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
E - I never even heard of this game!

--------------

2004 Half Life 2
World of Warcraft
2005 Psychonauts
F.E.A.R.
2006 Half Life 2 Episode One
Civilization IV
2007 Bioshock
Portal
2008 The Witcher
Left 3 Dead
2009 Braid
Mirror's Edge
2010 Amnesia: Dark Descent
World of Tanks
2011 Minecraft
Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
2012 FTL: Faster than Light
Eurotruck Simulator 2
2013 DOTA2
Dishonored

--------------

My score: ACBAAAAAAABABDAABADB

It's the usual mix of single and multiple playthroughs, but this time
there are a few stand-outs.: "World of Warcraft" got only a minimum of
time for me (enough to see that it wasn't a game for me); "World of
Tanks" and "DOTA2" are both games I've never even bothered to buy. And
yes, I tossed "Eurotruck Simulator 2" into the mix, but not just
because I play it so often, but also because in many ways it
popularized the 'workplace simulator' genre that has exploded since
its release.

So, how did you do? Did I miss out on some games you feel absolutely
deserved to be on the list (almost certainly I did!)? And was this
whole thread a fun diversion or a colossal waste of time? Usenet
awaits your response!

--------------

* reasons why it was hard for me to figure out which games were
'classics' as I define them.**

1) the industry moved hard in the direction of
sequelization, which was less financially risky for
the publishers but also meant that they were taking
less chances. Since one of the qualifications I use
for a game being a classic was how much influence
it had on the hobby, a lot of games didn't make the
cut for that reason alone.
2) Indie games were often more experimental, but by
their very nature didn't have enough clout to move
the industry very far.
3) The hobby itself had also matured, which meant
there was less room for major shifts.
4) Finally, for many of these games, there just hasn't
been enough time to see how influential they really
have been yet (which is also why I'm not doing any
games released AFTER 2014).

** My definition of what a 'classic game' is includes the
following qualifications:
a) it's fun
b) it is memorable
c) it is technologically advanced (for its time)
d) it adds new features or gameplay to the genre
e) it introduces or popularizes a genre
f) it is a key franchise for a developer that has
had significant influence
'Classics games' don't need to tick off ALL of these
boxes (well, except maybe for the first) but should
have at least three or four of them.

On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 8:42:23 AM UTC-8, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

B - 2004 Half Life 2
C - World of Warcraft (Is it completable? In any case I didn't even get close to
end level, only a 3 month stint which I mostly didn't enjoy to try to play with
coworkers.)
B - 2005 Psychonauts
D - F.E.A.R.
B - 2006 Half Life 2 Episode One
D - Civilization IV
C - 2007 Bioshock
B - Portal
B - 2008 The Witcher
E - Left 3 Dead (I don't know how I haven't heard of this.)
D - 2009 Braid
D - Mirror's Edge
D - 2010 Amnesia: Dark Descent
C - World of Tanks (Might qualify for a B as I think I got to all the missions.)
C - 2011 Minecraft (Never did get to killing the dragon, the end feels like an
afterthought.)
C - Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (Got to the end dragon, I just lost interest before
beating it.)
C - 2012 FTL: Faster than Light
D - Eurotruck Simulator 2 (LoL of course you put this here, and if we're here
I don't see how we could've avoided hearing about it.)
D - 2013 DOTA2
C - Dishonored
> My score: ACBAAAAAAABABDAABADB

Oof, Mine is pretty bad on this list, not a single A and even an E.

5xB
7xC
7xD
1xE

I'll have to come back with a list grounded more in reality when I get the
chance. ;)

- Justisaur

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 11:42:10 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
> A - I've completed the game multiple times
> B - I've played it and completed it once
> C - I've played it but never finished it
> D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
> E - I never even heard of this game!
>
>--------------
>
>
> 2004 Half Life 2
> World of Warcraft
> 2005 Psychonauts
> F.E.A.R.
> 2006 Half Life 2 Episode One
> Civilization IV
> 2007 Bioshock
> Portal
> 2008 The Witcher
> Left 3 Dead
> 2009 Braid
> Mirror's Edge
> 2010 Amnesia: Dark Descent
> World of Tanks
> 2011 Minecraft
> Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
> 2012 FTL: Faster than Light
> Eurotruck Simulator 2
> 2013 DOTA2
> Dishonored

D
S - My favorite MMO. I played this to death back in the day.
D D
D D - I really need to get around to playing CIV 4!
D - I own Bioshock but I doubt I will like it as much as System Shock
D D
D D
D D
D D
D - To date, I have only every played Elder Scrolls 1 Arena. I only
dabbled with Daggerfall Unity and Morrowind
D D - I only heard of Eurotruck Simulator 2 because of *you* Spalls.
Does that make it D or E? I will go with D.
D D

Yeah, all Ds for me other then for World of Warcraft. I am not
surprised by that as I prefer older titles. But I am surprised I do
not have any E ratings!

I am sure I will score the worst this time around.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 15:18:50 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
<justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:

>E - Left 3 Dead (I don't know how I haven't heard of this.)

Ok, wait. I heard of Left 4 Dead. I never heard of this one either.
Looks like I have an E after all.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

2004 Half Life 2 B
World of Warcraft D
2005 Psychonauts D
F.E.A.R. D
2006 Half Life 2 Episode One B
Civilization IV D
2007 Bioshock C
Portal A
2008 The Witcher D
Left 3 Dead D
2009 Braid E
Mirror's Edge C
2010 Amnesia: Dark Descent E
World of Tanks D
2011 Minecraft D
Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim D
2012 FTL: Faster than Light C
Eurotruck Simulator 2 D
2013 DOTA2 D
Dishonored C

No real faves here. I wouldn't have even a single A if I hadn't replayed
Portal recently. Two is multiple playthroughs, right?

Borderlands 1&2, GTA (as many as five? no, six), Fallout 3&NV, Mass
Effect 1&2, Deus Ex: Human Revolution come to mind as time sinks from
this era. Sequelization features heavily and seems none of those are
classics by your definition.

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 08:56:46 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 15:18:50 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
><justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>E - Left 3 Dead (I don't know how I haven't heard of this.)
>
>Ok, wait. I heard of Left 4 Dead. I never heard of this one either.
>Looks like I have an E after all.

<sigh>

"Oh, I see I mispelled "Left 4 Dead". I need to not forget to go back
and correct that before I hit post. Let me just change this one other
paragraph first. Good, now to correct "Left 4 Dead"... but, oh, that's
quite an egregious typo there. Next, "Left 4 Dead"... oh, the wording
of that sentence is terrible, and maybe I should move this entire
chunk to footnotes? Oh, that's much better. Time to post. Say, did I
ever correct "Left 4 Dead"? Oh, I'm sure I must have."

<double sigh>

On 11/21/23 10:42, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
> So let's round out this selection of PC gaming classics and see how
> well you know this next batch of 'classic games'. As with our previous
> surveys, I've had to make a lot of very arbitrary decisions about what
> to include and what not to include.
>
> In fact, the 2004-2013 era was the one where I had the hardest time
> making my selections. This was for a variety of reasons* but it means
> that I am least certain that these games are deserving of the title,
> and that I haven't missed many other far-more-deserving games.
>
> Are all of these games classics? I'm not sure. But let's see how many
> of them you've played anyway.
>
> --------------
>
> Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
> A - I've completed the game multiple times
> B - I've played it and completed it once
> C - I've played it but never finished it
> D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
> E - I never even heard of this game!
>
> --------------
>
>
> 2004 Half Life 2
C > World of Warcraft
D > 2005 Psychonauts
D > F.E.A.R.
E > 2006 Half Life 2 Episode One
D > Civilization IV
D > 2007 Bioshock
D > Portal
A (because of course :))
> 2008 The Witcher
D > Left 3 Dead
A (does the sequel count? i mean, they hve all the originals games and i
have played every campaign a lot)
> 2009 Braid
E > Mirror's Edge
D > 2010 Amnesia: Dark Descent
D > World of Tanks
D > 2011 Minecraft
B (i really dont like modern minecraft)
> Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
C (i know, i know, its just not my type)
> 2012 FTL: Faster than Light
E > Eurotruck Simulator 2
D > 2013 DOTA2
D > Dishonored
D

--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 17:57:54 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
<justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 8:42:23?AM UTC-8, Spalls
>Hurgenson wrote:
>
>BONUS Justisaur's picks round! With critique of Spall's choices.

>2004 BONUS Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War - Yeah not as important as
> either of the above, but it felt like the first modern RTS that
>brought the game from the tabletop to the computer in an actually fun
>way. My score - A.

>2006 BONUS - Fallout 3 - This should be at the top of this year. It's
> remarkable for a number of reasons. A large(er) company buys the IP
>from a long dead franchise and successfully ressurects while updating
>it, when has that ever happened?!? Went from turn based isometric to
>FPS with an innovative pause and rpg aiming for the slow of twich.
>Kept a good deal of the weirdness and humor. It sure is memorable.
>Possibly an S for me, definately an A.

>2007 BONUS - Mass Effect - start of a franchise, best of them in my
> opinion, when's the last space action rpg, really brought this genre
>back. A. Alternately Crysis.

>2008 BONUS - Spore - Very popular alien evolution sim. This far more
> deserves to be on the list than Witcher. A - You thought I was going
>to say GTA IV didn't you?

>2009 BONUS - Borderlands - Weird psycho cell shaded over the top nuts
> FPS with classes and loot randomization and random squads that
>started a franchise and possibly the loot style. I don't see how you
>skipped over this for the other two, this had very lasting effects
>and was one of the funnest games of the decade let alone year. A. I
>can't even tell you how many times I finished this.

>2010 BONUS - Super Meat Boy - Is this the start of the 8 bit
> retrogaming? Sadly I haven't even played it. D. I'm tempted to put
>FO:NV, I didn't really enjoy it, but did finish it.

>2011 BONUS - Duke Nukum Forever - o.k. not really, but it was such a
> laughing stock and meme for so long, probably the most infamous game
>of all time. As you could guess that's a D.
>I really want to put Dark Souls here as it hits all the boxes far
> harder - started a franchise and a whole copy-cat industry, and even
>things just similar in some way earning the moniker 'souls-like'.
>However it was first a console game, and it does show.

>2012 BONUS - Diablo III - More for infamy again in their 'innovation'
> of a real money markteplace. At least I thought the in game money
>marketplace was a huge improvement over trying to trade over boards,
>but I seem to be alone in that, and they were both dropped. It was
>fun at least.

>2013 BONUS - Assassin's Creed Black Flag - It had actually fun pirating
> and swashbuckling which is more than I can say for any other pirate
>game, too bad it was saddled with AC. Like I said not much else
>deserving this year.

>I agree with stopping at 2013, further and it's not classic anymore.
>Frankly I don't think any of these have reached 'classic' even.

>Don't take my critques and choices to seriously, I had to really
>stretch some this time.

Don't worry, I don't. One of the point of these posts was to inspire
discussion, and I'd be silly to try and shut it down just because I
didn't agree.

Nor do I entirely disagree with many of your selections, although I do
with some (for instance. "WH40K Dawn of War" didn't really move the
industry very much; Gearbox's own "Company of Heroes" probably
deserves the nod more.). But on the whole, I had to make some
editorial choices to fit in the two-games-per-year motif I'd selected

(were I to re-do the thread, I probably would have done only three or
four years per list, allowing more games per year)

But largely, I stand by my list. I'm not saying other games might not
be as valid but I think most of the games I picked fit the criteria.

My scores for the Justisaur Bonus Round:
----------------------------------------------

- WH40K Dawn of War: A for the main game, B or C for the expansions

- Fallout 3: A, natch

- Super Meat Boy: An excellent selection, fits well with criteria, but
only a C for me.

- Fallout New Vegas: B (finished it just the once, gave up on
subsequent playthroughs)

- Mass Effect: A, natch

- Duke Nukum Forever: A, sadly. But I had to see if the game REALLY
was as bad as I remembered from my first playthrough (it was)

- Diablo III: C, and even that's qualified (I played the console
version because the always-on DRM on the PC annoyed me. One of the
last, if not THE last, Activision games I played)

- Assassin's Creed Black Flag: B. Fun, but no sense replaying when I
can just play the next Ubisoft game and get the same experience ;-)

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 17:57:54 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
<justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:

>2009 BONUS - Borderlands - Weird psycho cell shaded over the top nuts
> FPS with classes and loot randomization and random squads that
>started a franchise and possibly the loot style. I don't see how you
>skipped over this for the other two, this had very lasting effects
>and was one of the funnest games of the decade let alone year. A. I
>can't even tell you how many times I finished this.

I don't like FPS games. I don't like action games. But Borderlands is
one of favorite games of all time. It is the very last game I played
multiplayer with friends and it was so much fun. A definite S from me
on Spalls tier list.

Did Borderlands start the looter shooter sub-genre? If it did, it
definitely belongs on Spalls list over the other games IMO.

On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 7:34:55 AM UTC-8, Mike S. wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 17:57:54 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
> <just...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >2009 BONUS - Borderlands - Weird psycho cell shaded over the top nuts
> > FPS with classes and loot randomization and random squads that
> >started a franchise and possibly the loot style. I don't see how you
> >skipped over this for the other two, this had very lasting effects
> >and was one of the funnest games of the decade let alone year. A. I
> >can't even tell you how many times I finished this.
> I don't like FPS games. I don't like action games. But Borderlands is
> one of favorite games of all time. It is the very last game I played
> multiplayer with friends and it was so much fun. A definite S from me
> on Spalls tier list.
>
> Did Borderlands start the looter shooter sub-genre? If it did, it
> definitely belongs on Spalls list over the other games IMO.

I think it at least popularized it. Even if it was essentially, let's take
diablo loot and put it in an Action RPG-FPS.

- Justisaur

On 23/11/2023 15:34, Mike S. wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 17:57:54 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
> <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> 2009 BONUS - Borderlands - Weird psycho cell shaded over the top nuts
>> FPS with classes and loot randomization and random squads that
>> started a franchise and possibly the loot style. I don't see how you
>> skipped over this for the other two, this had very lasting effects
>> and was one of the funnest games of the decade let alone year. A. I
>> can't even tell you how many times I finished this.
>
> I don't like FPS games. I don't like action games. But Borderlands is
> one of favorite games of all time. It is the very last game I played
> multiplayer with friends and it was so much fun. A definite S from me
> on Spalls tier list.
>
> Did Borderlands start the looter shooter sub-genre? If it did, it
> definitely belongs on Spalls list over the other games IMO.

Borderlands is one of those strange games in that although I spent far
more hours playing it than I normally do with a game, for me it didn't
raise itself above what I'd call a enjoyable romp and fell far short of
getting onto my classics list.

Outer Worlds is in much the same category.

2004 Half Life 2 - A
World of Warcraft - D
2005 Psychonauts - C
F.E.A.R. - C
2006 Half Life 2 Episode One - A
Civilization IV - A
2007 Bioshock - C
Portal - A
2008 The Witcher - C
Left 3 Dead - D
2009 Braid - C
Mirror's Edge - D
2010 Amnesia: Dark Descent - C
World of Tanks - B (sort of anyway)
2011 Minecraft - D
Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim - C
2012 FTL: Faster than Light - C
Eurotruck Simulator 2 - D
2013 DOTA2 - D
Dishonored - C

Two I'd add to my list, Far Cry for creating a more open world which
wasn't you can have any colour you want as long as it was brown and
STALKER. The latter I felt really pushed what an FPS could, and should,
be despite its many flaws. Unfortunately the buying public didn't seem
to agree with me.

Oh and I can't help but mention Talos Principle which I felt took some
ideas from Portal and made a better game.