I have become very curious about the ancestry of VMS. (I am
going to look into some others, but for VMS I do have this
outlet for information!)

Both Primos and Unix came from people recently working on
Multics. Primos went in the same direction as Multics while
Unix appeared to go in a very different direction.

VMS is more similar to Primos than Unix. I have seen it said
that RSX-11 was the immediate parent of VMS. Was that true?
Given that, what is the ancestry going back even further?
Where did VMS actually get its start paradigm-wise?

Anybody here have any of this information?

bill

On 5/13/2021 8:21 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> I have become very curious about the ancestry of VMS.  (I am
> going to look into some others, but for VMS I do have this
> outlet for information!)
>
> Both Primos and Unix came from people recently working on
> Multics.  Primos went in the same direction as Multics while
> Unix appeared to go in a very different direction.
>
> VMS is more similar to Primos than Unix.  I have seen it said
> that RSX-11 was the immediate parent of VMS.  Was that true?
> Given that, what is the ancestry going back even further?
> Where did VMS actually get its start paradigm-wise?
>
> Anybody here have any of this information?

The story in Wikipedia is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS

<quote>
In April 1975, Digital Equipment Corporation embarked on a hardware
project, code named Star, to design a 32-bit virtual address extension
to its PDP-11 computer line. A companion software project, code named
Starlet, was started in June 1975 to develop a totally new operating
system, based on RSX-11M, for the Star family of processors. These two
projects were tightly integrated from the beginning. Gordon Bell was the
VP lead on the VAX hardware and its architecture. Roger Gourd was the
project lead for the Starlet program, with software engineers Dave
Cutler (who would later lead development of Microsoft's Windows NT),
Dick Hustvedt, and Peter Lipman acting as the technical project leaders,
each having responsibility for a different area of the operating system.
The Star and Starlet projects culminated in the VAX-11/780 computer and
the VAX/VMS operating system. The Starlet name survived in VMS as a name
of several of the main system libraries, including STARLET.OLB and
STARLET.MLB.
</quote>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX-11

<quote>
RSX-11 is a discontinued family of multi-user real-time operating
systems for PDP-11 computers created by Digital Equipment Corporation.
In widespread use through the late 1970s and early 1980s, RSX-11 was
influential in the development of later operating systems such as VMS
and Windows NT.
....
RSX-11 began as a port to the PDP-11 architecture of the earlier RSX-15
operating system for the PDP-15 minicomputer, first released in 1971.
The main architect for RSX-15 (later renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis “Dan”
Brevik.
....
The porting effort first produced small paper tape based real-time
executives (RSX-11A, RSX-11C) which later gained limited support for
disks (RSX-11B). RSX-11B then evolved into the fully fledged RSX-11D
disk-based operating system, which first appeared on the PDP-11/40 and
PDP-11/45 in early 1973. The project leader for RSX-11D up to version 4
was Henry Krejci. While RSX-11D was being completed, Digital set out to
adapt it for a small memory footprint giving birth to RSX-11M, first
released in 1973. From 1971 to 1976 the RSX-11M project was spearheaded
by noted operating system designer Dave Cutler, then at his first
project. Principles first tried in RSX-11M appear also in later designs
led by Cutler, DEC's VMS and Microsoft's Windows NT.
</quote>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-15#RSX-15

<quote>
RSX-15 was released by DEC in 1971. The main architect for RSX-15 (later
renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis "Dan" Brevik.

Once XVM/RSX was released, DEC facilitated that "a PDP-15 can be
field-upgraded to XVM" but it required "the addition of the XM15 memory
processor."

The RSX-11 operating system began as a port of RSX-15 to the PDP-11,
although it later diverged significantly in terms of design and
functionality.
</quote>

All before my time.

But I do remember that VAX and VMS VAX had some PDP-11 and RSX-11
compatibility mode features.

Arne

On 5/13/21 8:52 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 5/13/2021 8:21 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> I have become very curious about the ancestry of VMS.  (I am
>> going to look into some others, but for VMS I do have this
>> outlet for information!)
>>
>> Both Primos and Unix came from people recently working on
>> Multics.  Primos went in the same direction as Multics while
>> Unix appeared to go in a very different direction.
>>
>> VMS is more similar to Primos than Unix.  I have seen it said
>> that RSX-11 was the immediate parent of VMS.  Was that true?
>> Given that, what is the ancestry going back even further?
>> Where did VMS actually get its start paradigm-wise?
>>
>> Anybody here have any of this information?
>
> The story in Wikipedia is:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS
>
> <quote>
> In April 1975, Digital Equipment Corporation embarked on a hardware
> project, code named Star, to design a 32-bit virtual address extension
> to its PDP-11 computer line. A companion software project, code named
> Starlet, was started in June 1975 to develop a totally new operating
> system, based on RSX-11M, for the Star family of processors. These two
> projects were tightly integrated from the beginning. Gordon Bell was the
> VP lead on the VAX hardware and its architecture. Roger Gourd was the
> project lead for the Starlet program, with software engineers Dave
> Cutler (who would later lead development of Microsoft's Windows NT),
> Dick Hustvedt, and Peter Lipman acting as the technical project leaders,
> each having responsibility for a different area of the operating system.
> The Star and Starlet projects culminated in the VAX-11/780 computer and
> the VAX/VMS operating system. The Starlet name survived in VMS as a name
> of several of the main system libraries, including STARLET.OLB and
> STARLET.MLB.
> </quote>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX-11
>
> <quote>
> RSX-11 is a discontinued family of multi-user real-time operating
> systems for PDP-11 computers created by Digital Equipment Corporation.
> In widespread use through the late 1970s and early 1980s, RSX-11 was
> influential in the development of later operating systems such as VMS
> and Windows NT.
> ...
> RSX-11 began as a port to the PDP-11 architecture of the earlier RSX-15
> operating system for the PDP-15 minicomputer, first released in 1971.
> The main architect for RSX-15 (later renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis “Dan”
> Brevik.
> ...
> The porting effort first produced small paper tape based real-time
> executives (RSX-11A, RSX-11C) which later gained limited support for
> disks (RSX-11B). RSX-11B then evolved into the fully fledged RSX-11D
> disk-based operating system, which first appeared on the PDP-11/40 and
> PDP-11/45 in early 1973. The project leader for RSX-11D up to version 4
> was Henry Krejci. While RSX-11D was being completed, Digital set out to
> adapt it for a small memory footprint giving birth to RSX-11M, first
> released in 1973. From 1971 to 1976 the RSX-11M project was spearheaded
> by noted operating system designer Dave Cutler, then at his first
> project. Principles first tried in RSX-11M appear also in later designs
> led by Cutler, DEC's VMS and Microsoft's Windows NT.
> </quote>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-15#RSX-15
>
> <quote>
> RSX-15 was released by DEC in 1971. The main architect for RSX-15 (later
> renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis "Dan" Brevik.
>
> Once XVM/RSX was released, DEC facilitated that "a PDP-15 can be
> field-upgraded to XVM" but it required "the addition of the XM15 memory
> processor."
>
> The RSX-11 operating system began as a port of RSX-15 to the PDP-11,
> although it later diverged significantly in terms of design and
> functionality.
> </quote>
>
> All before my time.
>
> But I do remember that VAX and VMS VAX had some PDP-11 and RSX-11
> compatibility mode features.
>
> Arne

Thank you. That takes me back a little bit further. But I fear the
very origins, the driving model, may be long lost by this time. I
have a number of very early textbooks on Operating Systems and none
of them describe features common in VMS or RSX. It's really just
curiosity, but I wondered where some of the concepts originated.

bill

On 5/13/2021 9:06 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 5/13/21 8:52 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 5/13/2021 8:21 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> I have become very curious about the ancestry of VMS. (I am
>>> going to look into some others, but for VMS I do have this
>>> outlet for information!)
>>>
>>> Both Primos and Unix came from people recently working on
>>> Multics. Primos went in the same direction as Multics while
>>> Unix appeared to go in a very different direction.
>>>
>>> VMS is more similar to Primos than Unix. I have seen it said
>>> that RSX-11 was the immediate parent of VMS. Was that true?
>>> Given that, what is the ancestry going back even further?
>>> Where did VMS actually get its start paradigm-wise?
>>>
>>> Anybody here have any of this information?
>>
>> The story in Wikipedia is:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS
>>
>> <quote>
>> In April 1975, Digital Equipment Corporation embarked on a hardware
>> project, code named Star, to design a 32-bit virtual address extension
>> to its PDP-11 computer line. A companion software project, code named
>> Starlet, was started in June 1975 to develop a totally new operating
>> system, based on RSX-11M, for the Star family of processors. These two
>> projects were tightly integrated from the beginning. Gordon Bell was
>> the VP lead on the VAX hardware and its architecture. Roger Gourd was
>> the project lead for the Starlet program, with software engineers Dave
>> Cutler (who would later lead development of Microsoft's Windows NT),
>> Dick Hustvedt, and Peter Lipman acting as the technical project
>> leaders, each having responsibility for a different area of the
>> operating system. The Star and Starlet projects culminated in the
>> VAX-11/780 computer and the VAX/VMS operating system. The Starlet name
>> survived in VMS as a name of several of the main system libraries,
>> including STARLET.OLB and STARLET.MLB.
>> </quote>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX-11
>>
>> <quote>
>> RSX-11 is a discontinued family of multi-user real-time operating
>> systems for PDP-11 computers created by Digital Equipment Corporation.
>> In widespread use through the late 1970s and early 1980s, RSX-11 was
>> influential in the development of later operating systems such as VMS
>> and Windows NT.
>> ...
>> RSX-11 began as a port to the PDP-11 architecture of the earlier
>> RSX-15 operating system for the PDP-15 minicomputer, first released in
>> 1971. The main architect for RSX-15 (later renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis
>> “Dan” Brevik.
>> ...
>> The porting effort first produced small paper tape based real-time
>> executives (RSX-11A, RSX-11C) which later gained limited support for
>> disks (RSX-11B). RSX-11B then evolved into the fully fledged RSX-11D
>> disk-based operating system, which first appeared on the PDP-11/40 and
>> PDP-11/45 in early 1973. The project leader for RSX-11D up to version
>> 4 was Henry Krejci. While RSX-11D was being completed, Digital set out
>> to adapt it for a small memory footprint giving birth to RSX-11M,
>> first released in 1973. From 1971 to 1976 the RSX-11M project was
>> spearheaded by noted operating system designer Dave Cutler, then at
>> his first project. Principles first tried in RSX-11M appear also in
>> later designs led by Cutler, DEC's VMS and Microsoft's Windows NT.
>> </quote>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-15#RSX-15
>>
>> <quote>
>> RSX-15 was released by DEC in 1971. The main architect for RSX-15
>> (later renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis "Dan" Brevik.
>>
>> Once XVM/RSX was released, DEC facilitated that "a PDP-15 can be
>> field-upgraded to XVM" but it required "the addition of the XM15
>> memory processor."
>>
>> The RSX-11 operating system began as a port of RSX-15 to the PDP-11,
>> although it later diverged significantly in terms of design and
>> functionality.
>> </quote>
>>
>> All before my time.
>>
>> But I do remember that VAX and VMS VAX had some PDP-11 and RSX-11
>> compatibility mode features.
>>
>> Arne
>
>
> Thank you. That takes me back a little bit further. But I fear the
> very origins, the driving model, may be long lost by this time. I
> have a number of very early textbooks on Operating Systems and none
> of them describe features common in VMS or RSX. It's really just
> curiosity, but I wondered where some of the concepts originated.
>
> bill
>

Looking at it from a different perspective ....

Back in 1974 I was introduced to a PDP11/40 running RSTS V04b. At the
time, the only supported language was Basic+, an interpreter.

Where RSTS came from, I don't know, but what I was told was that David
Hart of Evens, Griffith, and Hart wrote the original Basic+. David is
no longer with us, but, perhaps John Santos might have some information
of the earlier days.

While DEC ended up with RSTS and Basic+, what it seemed like to me is
that the software people at DEC considered RSX as a proper OS and RSTS
"that other thing". Perhaps where their NIH started, or, perhaps they
already embraced that concept.

I wasn't a user of RSX at the time, so I really don't have any memories
of it on the PDP11.

Some time after 1974, don't know exactly when, DEC produced some type of
RSX subsystem for RSTS, which allowed MACRO-11, and other RSX languages
to run on RSTS. These included BP2 (Basic Plus 2) which was a compiled
version of Basic Plus.

When VAX and VMS came along, VMS inherited much from RSX, as that seemed
to be the preferred choice for the DEC software people. VAX and VMS was
aimed at the scientific market initially. Only when DEC wanted into the
business market did they start incorporating capabilities from RSTS,
since RSTS was heavily used in the business market.

So yeah, VMS was based initially on RSX, and later had RSTS capabilities
added. The result was something better than the sum of RSX and RSTS.

I never heard any stories of where RSTS came from ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 5/13/2021 10:25 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 5/13/2021 9:06 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 5/13/21 8:52 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 5/13/2021 8:21 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> I have become very curious about the ancestry of VMS.  (I am
>>>> going to look into some others, but for VMS I do have this
>>>> outlet for information!)
>>>>
>>>> Both Primos and Unix came from people recently working on
>>>> Multics.  Primos went in the same direction as Multics while
>>>> Unix appeared to go in a very different direction.
>>>>
>>>> VMS is more similar to Primos than Unix.  I have seen it said
>>>> that RSX-11 was the immediate parent of VMS.  Was that true?
>>>> Given that, what is the ancestry going back even further?
>>>> Where did VMS actually get its start paradigm-wise?
>>>>
>>>> Anybody here have any of this information?
>>>
>>> The story in Wikipedia is:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> In April 1975, Digital Equipment Corporation embarked on a hardware
>>> project, code named Star, to design a 32-bit virtual address extension
>>> to its PDP-11 computer line. A companion software project, code named
>>> Starlet, was started in June 1975 to develop a totally new operating
>>> system, based on RSX-11M, for the Star family of processors. These two
>>> projects were tightly integrated from the beginning. Gordon Bell was
>>> the VP lead on the VAX hardware and its architecture. Roger Gourd was
>>> the project lead for the Starlet program, with software engineers Dave
>>> Cutler (who would later lead development of Microsoft's Windows NT),
>>> Dick Hustvedt, and Peter Lipman acting as the technical project
>>> leaders, each having responsibility for a different area of the
>>> operating system. The Star and Starlet projects culminated in the
>>> VAX-11/780 computer and the VAX/VMS operating system. The Starlet name
>>> survived in VMS as a name of several of the main system libraries,
>>> including STARLET.OLB and STARLET.MLB.
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX-11
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> RSX-11 is a discontinued family of multi-user real-time operating
>>> systems for PDP-11 computers created by Digital Equipment Corporation.
>>> In widespread use through the late 1970s and early 1980s, RSX-11 was
>>> influential in the development of later operating systems such as VMS
>>> and Windows NT.
>>> ...
>>> RSX-11 began as a port to the PDP-11 architecture of the earlier
>>> RSX-15 operating system for the PDP-15 minicomputer, first released in
>>> 1971. The main architect for RSX-15 (later renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis
>>> “Dan” Brevik.
>>> ...
>>> The porting effort first produced small paper tape based real-time
>>> executives (RSX-11A, RSX-11C) which later gained limited support for
>>> disks (RSX-11B). RSX-11B then evolved into the fully fledged RSX-11D
>>> disk-based operating system, which first appeared on the PDP-11/40 and
>>> PDP-11/45 in early 1973. The project leader for RSX-11D up to version
>>> 4 was Henry Krejci. While RSX-11D was being completed, Digital set out
>>> to adapt it for a small memory footprint giving birth to RSX-11M,
>>> first released in 1973. From 1971 to 1976 the RSX-11M project was
>>> spearheaded by noted operating system designer Dave Cutler, then at
>>> his first project. Principles first tried in RSX-11M appear also in
>>> later designs led by Cutler, DEC's VMS and Microsoft's Windows NT.
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-15#RSX-15
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> RSX-15 was released by DEC in 1971. The main architect for RSX-15
>>> (later renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis "Dan" Brevik.
>>>
>>> Once XVM/RSX was released, DEC facilitated that "a PDP-15 can be
>>> field-upgraded to XVM" but it required "the addition of the XM15
>>> memory processor."
>>>
>>> The RSX-11 operating system began as a port of RSX-15 to the PDP-11,
>>> although it later diverged significantly in terms of design and
>>> functionality.
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> All before my time.
>>>
>>> But I do remember that VAX and VMS VAX had some PDP-11 and RSX-11
>>> compatibility mode features.
>>>
>>> Arne
>>
>>
>> Thank you.  That takes me back a little bit further.  But I fear the
>> very origins, the driving model, may be long lost by this time.  I
>> have a number of very early textbooks on Operating Systems and none
>> of them describe features common in VMS or RSX.  It's really just
>> curiosity, but I wondered where some of the concepts originated.
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> Looking at it from a different perspective ....
>
> Back in 1974 I was introduced to a PDP11/40 running RSTS V04b.  At the
> time, the only supported language was Basic+, an interpreter.
>
> Where RSTS came from, I don't know, but what I was told was that David
> Hart of Evens, Griffith, and Hart wrote the original Basic+.  David is
> no longer with us, but, perhaps John Santos might have some information
> of the earlier days.
>
> While DEC ended up with RSTS and Basic+, what it seemed like to me is
> that the software people at DEC considered RSX as a proper OS and RSTS
> "that other thing".  Perhaps where their NIH started, or, perhaps they
> already embraced that concept.
>
> I wasn't a user of RSX at the time, so I really don't have any memories
> of it on the PDP11.
>
> Some time after 1974, don't know exactly when, DEC produced some type of
> RSX subsystem for RSTS, which allowed MACRO-11, and other RSX languages
> to run on RSTS.  These included BP2 (Basic Plus 2) which was a compiled
> version of Basic Plus.
>
> When VAX and VMS came along, VMS inherited much from RSX, as that seemed
> to be the preferred choice for the DEC software people.  VAX and VMS was
> aimed at the scientific market initially.  Only when DEC wanted into the
> business market did they start incorporating capabilities from RSTS,
> since RSTS was heavily used in the business market.
>
> So yeah, VMS was based initially on RSX, and later had RSTS capabilities
> added.  The result was something better than the sum of RSX and RSTS.
>
> I never heard any stories of where RSTS came from ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSTS/E

<quote>
RSTS (/ˈrɪstɪs/) is a multi-user time-sharing operating system,
initially developed by Evans Griffiths & Hart of Boston, and acquired by
Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC, now part of Hewlett Packard) for the
PDP-11 series of 16-bit minicomputers. The first version of RSTS
(RSTS-11, Version 1) was implemented in 1970 by DEC software engineers
that developed the TSS-8 time-sharing operating system for the PDP-8.

....

1970s

The kernel of RSTS was programmed in the assembly language MACRO-11,
compiled and installed to a disk using the CILUS program, running on a
DOS-11 operating system. RSTS booted into an extended version of the
BASIC programming language which DEC called "BASIC-PLUS". All of the
system software CUSPS for the operating system, including the programs
for resource accounting, login, logout, and managing the system, were
written in BASIC-PLUS. From 1970 to 1973, RSTS ran in only 56K bytes of
magnetic core memory (64 kilobytes including the memory-mapped I/O
space). This would allow a system to have up to 16 terminals with a
maximum of 17 jobs. The maximum program size was 16K bytes. By the end
of 1973 DEC estimated there were 150 licensed systems running RSTS.

In 1973 memory management support was included in RSTS (now RSTS/E) for
the newer DEC PDP-11/40 and PDP-11/45 minicomputers (the PDP-11/20 was
only supported under RSTS-11). The introduction of memory management in
the newer PDP-11 computers not only meant these machines were able to
address four times the amount of memory (18-bit addressing, 256K bytes),
it also paved the way for the developers to separate user mode processes
from the core of the kernel.

In 1975 memory management support was again updated for the newer 22-bit
addressable PDP-11/70. RSTS systems could now be expanded to use as much
as two megabytes of memory running up to 63 jobs. The RTS and CCL
concepts were introduced although they had to be compiled in during
"SYSGEN". Multi-terminal service was introduced which would allow a
single job the ability to control multiple terminals (128 total).
Large-message send/receive and interprocess communication became very
sophisticated and efficient. By August there are 1,200 licensed systems.

On Thu, 13 May 2021 09:06:33 -0400, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Thank you. That takes me back a little bit further. But I fear the
> very origins, the driving model, may be long lost by this time. I have
> a number of very early textbooks on Operating Systems and none of them
> describe features common in VMS or RSX.

Which features were you thinking of, as a matter of interest?

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 05/13/2021 07:25 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 5/13/2021 9:06 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 5/13/21 8:52 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 5/13/2021 8:21 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> I have become very curious about the ancestry of VMS. (I am
>>>> going to look into some others, but for VMS I do have this
>>>> outlet for information!)
>>>>
>>>> Both Primos and Unix came from people recently working on
>>>> Multics. Primos went in the same direction as Multics while
>>>> Unix appeared to go in a very different direction.
>>>>
>>>> VMS is more similar to Primos than Unix. I have seen it said
>>>> that RSX-11 was the immediate parent of VMS. Was that true?
>>>> Given that, what is the ancestry going back even further?
>>>> Where did VMS actually get its start paradigm-wise?
>>>>
>>>> Anybody here have any of this information?
>>>
>>> The story in Wikipedia is:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> In April 1975, Digital Equipment Corporation embarked on a hardware
>>> project, code named Star, to design a 32-bit virtual address extension
>>> to its PDP-11 computer line. A companion software project, code named
>>> Starlet, was started in June 1975 to develop a totally new operating
>>> system, based on RSX-11M, for the Star family of processors. These two
>>> projects were tightly integrated from the beginning. Gordon Bell was
>>> the VP lead on the VAX hardware and its architecture. Roger Gourd was
>>> the project lead for the Starlet program, with software engineers Dave
>>> Cutler (who would later lead development of Microsoft's Windows NT),
>>> Dick Hustvedt, and Peter Lipman acting as the technical project
>>> leaders, each having responsibility for a different area of the
>>> operating system. The Star and Starlet projects culminated in the
>>> VAX-11/780 computer and the VAX/VMS operating system. The Starlet name
>>> survived in VMS as a name of several of the main system libraries,
>>> including STARLET.OLB and STARLET.MLB.
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX-11
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> RSX-11 is a discontinued family of multi-user real-time operating
>>> systems for PDP-11 computers created by Digital Equipment Corporation.
>>> In widespread use through the late 1970s and early 1980s, RSX-11 was
>>> influential in the development of later operating systems such as VMS
>>> and Windows NT.
>>> ...
>>> RSX-11 began as a port to the PDP-11 architecture of the earlier
>>> RSX-15 operating system for the PDP-15 minicomputer, first released in
>>> 1971. The main architect for RSX-15 (later renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis
>>> “Dan” Brevik.
>>> ...
>>> The porting effort first produced small paper tape based real-time
>>> executives (RSX-11A, RSX-11C) which later gained limited support for
>>> disks (RSX-11B). RSX-11B then evolved into the fully fledged RSX-11D
>>> disk-based operating system, which first appeared on the PDP-11/40 and
>>> PDP-11/45 in early 1973. The project leader for RSX-11D up to version
>>> 4 was Henry Krejci. While RSX-11D was being completed, Digital set out
>>> to adapt it for a small memory footprint giving birth to RSX-11M,
>>> first released in 1973. From 1971 to 1976 the RSX-11M project was
>>> spearheaded by noted operating system designer Dave Cutler, then at
>>> his first project. Principles first tried in RSX-11M appear also in
>>> later designs led by Cutler, DEC's VMS and Microsoft's Windows NT.
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-15#RSX-15
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> RSX-15 was released by DEC in 1971. The main architect for RSX-15
>>> (later renamed XVM/RSX) was Dennis "Dan" Brevik.
>>>
>>> Once XVM/RSX was released, DEC facilitated that "a PDP-15 can be
>>> field-upgraded to XVM" but it required "the addition of the XM15
>>> memory processor."
>>>
>>> The RSX-11 operating system began as a port of RSX-15 to the PDP-11,
>>> although it later diverged significantly in terms of design and
>>> functionality.
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> All before my time.
>>>
>>> But I do remember that VAX and VMS VAX had some PDP-11 and RSX-11
>>> compatibility mode features.
>>>
>>> Arne
>>
>>
>> Thank you. That takes me back a little bit further. But I fear the
>> very origins, the driving model, may be long lost by this time. I
>> have a number of very early textbooks on Operating Systems and none
>> of them describe features common in VMS or RSX. It's really just
>> curiosity, but I wondered where some of the concepts originated.
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> Looking at it from a different perspective ....
>
> Back in 1974 I was introduced to a PDP11/40 running RSTS V04b. At the
> time, the only supported language was Basic+, an interpreter.
>
> Where RSTS came from, I don't know, but what I was told was that David
> Hart of Evens, Griffith, and Hart wrote the original Basic+. David is
> no longer with us, but, perhaps John Santos might have some information
> of the earlier days.
>
> While DEC ended up with RSTS and Basic+, what it seemed like to me is
> that the software people at DEC considered RSX as a proper OS and RSTS
> "that other thing". Perhaps where their NIH started, or, perhaps they
> already embraced that concept.
>
> I wasn't a user of RSX at the time, so I really don't have any memories
> of it on the PDP11.
>
> Some time after 1974, don't know exactly when, DEC produced some type of
> RSX subsystem for RSTS, which allowed MACRO-11, and other RSX languages
> to run on RSTS. These included BP2 (Basic Plus 2) which was a compiled
> version of Basic Plus.
>
> When VAX and VMS came along, VMS inherited much from RSX, as that seemed
> to be the preferred choice for the DEC software people. VAX and VMS was
> aimed at the scientific market initially. Only when DEC wanted into the
> business market did they start incorporating capabilities from RSTS,
> since RSTS was heavily used in the business market.
>
> So yeah, VMS was based initially on RSX, and later had RSTS capabilities
> added. The result was something better than the sum of RSX and RSTS.
>
> I never heard any stories of where RSTS came from ...
>

I believe RSX and RSTE were predated by RT-11 which heavily influenced
CP/M and later DOS. TSX-11 (which ran on RT-11) was considered a cheaper
version of RSTS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT-11

Jeff

On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 11:55:34 AM UTC-4, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2021 09:06:33 -0400, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> > Thank you. That takes me back a little bit further. But I fear the
> > very origins, the driving model, may be long lost by this time. I have
> > a number of very early textbooks on Operating Systems and none of them
> > describe features common in VMS or RSX.
> Which features were you thinking of, as a matter of interest?

When I took a micro-architecture class in college (~1983), the concept of an
I/O interrupt completely baffled about half the students. The programming
assignments on PCs running CP/M, though I had been using RSX-11M on
an 11/44 for a couple years.

On 2021-05-13, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you. That takes me back a little bit further. But I fear the
> very origins, the driving model, may be long lost by this time. I
> have a number of very early textbooks on Operating Systems and none
> of them describe features common in VMS or RSX. It's really just
> curiosity, but I wondered where some of the concepts originated.
>

At one point, there used to be a couple of timeline documents available
online, one about VMS and one about the history of DEC itself.

I wonder if they have been lost to time ?

I had a look for the one about the history of DEC, but couldn't find it.

I did find this however, which might be useful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Digital_Equipment_Corporation

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> I have become very curious about the ancestry of VMS. (I am
> going to look into some others, but for VMS I do have this
> outlet for information!)
>
> Both Primos and Unix came from people recently working on
> Multics. Primos went in the same direction as Multics while
> Unix appeared to go in a very different direction.
>
> VMS is more similar to Primos than Unix. I have seen it said
> that RSX-11 was the immediate parent of VMS. Was that true?
> Given that, what is the ancestry going back even further?
> Where did VMS actually get its start paradigm-wise?
>
> Anybody here have any of this information?

Early on, I noticed some similarities between VMS and Xerox CP-V.

At a conference 15 or 20 years ago, I ran into Andy Goldstein and asked
him about this.

He said that, yes, there were 1 or 2 members of the Xerox CP-V
development team on the VMS development team, but he didn't remember
what they were responsible for.

This is all anecdotal.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.

Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com
Fax: 817-237-3074

On Thu, 13 May 2021 09:25:17 -0700, David Jones wrote:

> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 11:55:34 AM UTC-4, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 May 2021 09:06:33 -0400, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>> > Thank you. That takes me back a little bit further. But I fear the
>> > very origins, the driving model, may be long lost by this time. I
>> > have a number of very early textbooks on Operating Systems and none
>> > of them describe features common in VMS or RSX.
>> Which features were you thinking of, as a matter of interest?
>
> When I took a micro-architecture class in college (~1983), the concept
> of an I/O interrupt completely baffled about half the students. The
> programming assignments on PCs running CP/M, though I had been using
> RSX-11M on an 11/44 for a couple years.

I/O interrupts were ther back in the 1960s, and possibly earlier. I
started teaching OD theory and practice in 1978, and it was an absolute
given.

We had an interesting assignment which required students (using a 68000
board) to handle interrupts and time black-white transitions from a basic
bar code reader, then work out a threshold and decode the value.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Bill
>Gunshannon via Info-vax
>Sent: May-13-21 9:21 AM
>To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>Cc: Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com>
>Subject: [Info-vax] OS Ancestry
>
>
>I have become very curious about the ancestry of VMS. (I am going to look
>into some others, but for VMS I do have this outlet for information!)
>
>Both Primos and Unix came from people recently working on Multics. Primos
>went in the same direction as Multics while Unix appeared to go in a very
>different direction.
>
>VMS is more similar to Primos than Unix. I have seen it said that RSX-11
was
>the immediate parent of VMS. Was that true?
>Given that, what is the ancestry going back even further?
>Where did VMS actually get its start paradigm-wise?
>
>Anybody here have any of this information?
>
>bill
>

A few history links of interest:

VAX / VMS Timeline: (click on year)
<http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/timeline/tmlnhome.htm>
<http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/timeline/32-bit.htm>

VMS Release History:
<http://www.polarhome.com/vms/vms_hist.html>

VMS Clusters:
<http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.74.727&rep=rep1&ty
pe=pdf>

VMS vs UNIX (Neil's site)
<http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vms_vs_unix.html>
<
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/Windows-NT_is_VMS_re-implemented.html#
forward>

Dave Cutler storey from '98
<https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story>

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:23:17 AM UTC-4, Dave Froble wrote:
>
> Back in 1974 I was introduced to a PDP11/40 running RSTS V04b. At the
> time, the only supported language was Basic+, an interpreter.
>
> Where RSTS came from, I don't know, but what I was told was that David
> Hart of Evens, Griffith, and Hart wrote the original Basic+. David is
> no longer with us, but, perhaps John Santos might have some information
> of the earlier days.

Tim Hart, not David. Tim also wrote the first LISP compiler. He hired me out of college in 1978 and I’m still at EGH.
A great friend, mentor and boss.

>
> While DEC ended up with RSTS and Basic+, what it seemed like to me is
> that the software people at DEC considered RSX as a proper OS and RSTS
> "that other thing". Perhaps where their NIH started, or, perhaps they
> already embraced that concept.
>
> I wasn't a user of RSX at the time, so I really don't have any memories
> of it on the PDP11.
>
> Some time after 1974, don't know exactly when, DEC produced some type of
> RSX subsystem for RSTS, which allowed MACRO-11, and other RSX languages
> to run on RSTS. These included BP2 (Basic Plus 2) which was a compiled
> version of Basic Plus.

I think the first macro-11 ran under an RT-11-emulating RTS (Run Time System)

>
> When VAX and VMS came along, VMS inherited much from RSX, as that seemed
> to be the preferred choice for the DEC software people. VAX and VMS was
> aimed at the scientific market initially. Only when DEC wanted into the
> business market did they start incorporating capabilities from RSTS,
> since RSTS was heavily used in the business market.
>
> So yeah, VMS was based initially on RSX, and later had RSTS capabilities
> added. The result was something better than the sum of RSX and RSTS.
>
> I never heard any stories of where RSTS came from ...
>
> --
> David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> 170 Grimplin Road
> Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 5/13/2021 7:42 PM, Jonathan wrote:
> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:23:17 AM UTC-4, Dave Froble wrote:
>>
>> Back in 1974 I was introduced to a PDP11/40 running RSTS V04b. At the
>> time, the only supported language was Basic+, an interpreter.
>>
>> Where RSTS came from, I don't know, but what I was told was that David
>> Hart of Evens, Griffith, and Hart wrote the original Basic+. David is
>> no longer with us, but, perhaps John Santos might have some information
>> of the earlier days.
>
> Tim Hart, not David. Tim also wrote the first LISP compiler. He hired me out of college in 1978 and I’m still at EGH.
> A great friend, mentor and boss.

Sorry about the name. It's been many years. I met Tim once when I was
at your offices, getting some lessons from John. Hope things are going
well for you guys.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:

[ snip ]

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC-PLUS

> <quote>
> BASIC-PLUS is an extended dialect of the BASIC programming language that
> was developed by Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) for use on its
> RSTS/E time-sharing operating system for the PDP-11 series of 16-bit
> minicomputers in the early 1970s through the 1980s.
>
> BASIC-PLUS was based on BASIC-8 for the TSS/8, itself based very closely
> on the original Dartmouth BASIC. BASIC-PLUS added a number of new
> structures, as well as features from JOSS concerning conditional
> statements and formatting. In turn, BASIC-PLUS was the version on which
> the original Microsoft BASIC was patterned.

Wrong.

Microsoft BASIC (originally "Altair BASIC") was based on the BASIC for the
PDP-10 (later rechristened the "DECsystem-10" when a new processor, the KI-10,
was introducec). Bill Gates and Paul Allen learned BASIC first on a GE-635
running GECOS (on the GE Information Systems network), then expanded their use
on a PDP-10 in Seattle.

DISCLAIMER: I worked for Paul Allen for 15 years, building his computer museum,
and was a first reader for his autobiography, so I'm very well aware of where
he learned BASIC. In point of fact, neither of them ever programmed on a
PDP-11 (personal communication from PGA).

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

On 5/13/2021 9:14 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>
> [ snip ]
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC-PLUS
>
>> <quote>
>> BASIC-PLUS is an extended dialect of the BASIC programming language that
>> was developed by Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) for use on its
>> RSTS/E time-sharing operating system for the PDP-11 series of 16-bit
>> minicomputers in the early 1970s through the 1980s.
>>
>> BASIC-PLUS was based on BASIC-8 for the TSS/8, itself based very closely
>> on the original Dartmouth BASIC. BASIC-PLUS added a number of new
>> structures, as well as features from JOSS concerning conditional
>> statements and formatting. In turn, BASIC-PLUS was the version on which
>> the original Microsoft BASIC was patterned.
>
> Wrong.
>
> Microsoft BASIC (originally "Altair BASIC") was based on the BASIC for the
> PDP-10 (later rechristened the "DECsystem-10" when a new processor, the KI-10,
> was introducec). Bill Gates and Paul Allen learned BASIC first on a GE-635
> running GECOS (on the GE Information Systems network), then expanded their use
> on a PDP-10 in Seattle.
>
> DISCLAIMER: I worked for Paul Allen for 15 years, building his computer museum,
> and was a first reader for his autobiography, so I'm very well aware of where
> he learned BASIC. In point of fact, neither of them ever programmed on a
> PDP-11 (personal communication from PGA).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_BASIC

explains where the story come from.

<quote>
The Altair BASIC interpreter was developed by Microsoft founders Paul
Allen and Bill Gates using a self-made Intel 8080 emulator running on a
PDP-10 minicomputer.[1] The MS dialect is patterned on Digital Equipment
Corporation's BASIC-PLUS on the PDP-11, which Gates had used in high
school.[2] The first versions supported integer math only, but Monte
Davidoff convinced them that floating-point arithmetic was possible, and
wrote a library which became the Microsoft Binary Format.
</quote>

2. Manes, Stephen (1993). Gates. Doubleday. p. 61. ISBN 9780385420754.

Arne

=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:

> On 5/13/2021 9:14 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> Microsoft BASIC (originally "Altair BASIC") was based on the BASIC for the
>> PDP-10 (later rechristened the "DECsystem-10" when a new processor, the KI-10,
>> was introducec). Bill Gates and Paul Allen learned BASIC first on a GE-635
>> running GECOS (on the GE Information Systems network), then expanded their use
>> on a PDP-10 in Seattle.

>> DISCLAIMER: I worked for Paul Allen for 15 years, building his computer museum,
>> and was a first reader for his autobiography, so I'm very well aware of where
>> he learned BASIC. In point of fact, neither of them ever programmed on a
>> PDP-11 (personal communication from PGA).

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_BASIC

> explains where the story come from.

> <quote>
> The Altair BASIC interpreter was developed by Microsoft founders Paul
> Allen and Bill Gates using a self-made Intel 8080 emulator running on a
> PDP-10 minicomputer.[1] The MS dialect is patterned on Digital Equipment
> Corporation's BASIC-PLUS on the PDP-11, which Gates had used in high
> school.[2] The first versions supported integer math only, but Monte
> Davidoff convinced them that floating-point arithmetic was possible, and
> wrote a library which became the Microsoft Binary Format.
> </quote>

> 2. Manes, Stephen (1993). Gates. Doubleday. p. 61. ISBN 9780385420754.

I stand by my access to the authors of MS BASIC rather than an third party who
does not understand that BASIC for the PDP-11

*DID NOT EXIST WHEN THEY WERE IN HIGH SCHOOL*.

Wikipedia is very often wrong.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

On 5/14/2021 2:18 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 5/13/2021 9:14 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>
>> [ snip ]
>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC-PLUS
>>
>>> <quote>
>>> BASIC-PLUS is an extended dialect of the BASIC programming language that
>>> was developed by Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) for use on its
>>> RSTS/E time-sharing operating system for the PDP-11 series of 16-bit
>>> minicomputers in the early 1970s through the 1980s.
>>>
>>> BASIC-PLUS was based on BASIC-8 for the TSS/8, itself based very closely
>>> on the original Dartmouth BASIC. BASIC-PLUS added a number of new
>>> structures, as well as features from JOSS concerning conditional
>>> statements and formatting. In turn, BASIC-PLUS was the version on which
>>> the original Microsoft BASIC was patterned.
>>
>> Wrong.
>>
>> Microsoft BASIC (originally "Altair BASIC") was based on the BASIC for
>> the
>> PDP-10 (later rechristened the "DECsystem-10" when a new processor,
>> the KI-10,
>> was introducec). Bill Gates and Paul Allen learned BASIC first on a
>> GE-635
>> running GECOS (on the GE Information Systems network), then expanded
>> their use
>> on a PDP-10 in Seattle.
>>
>> DISCLAIMER: I worked for Paul Allen for 15 years, building his
>> computer museum,
>> and was a first reader for his autobiography, so I'm very well aware
>> of where
>> he learned BASIC. In point of fact, neither of them ever programmed on a
>> PDP-11 (personal communication from PGA).
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_BASIC
>
> explains where the story come from.
>
> <quote>
> The Altair BASIC interpreter was developed by Microsoft founders Paul
> Allen and Bill Gates using a self-made Intel 8080 emulator running on a
> PDP-10 minicomputer.[1] The MS dialect is patterned on Digital Equipment
> Corporation's BASIC-PLUS on the PDP-11, which Gates had used in high
> school.[2] The first versions supported integer math only, but Monte
> Davidoff convinced them that floating-point arithmetic was possible, and
> wrote a library which became the Microsoft Binary Format.
> </quote>
>
> 2. Manes, Stephen (1993). Gates. Doubleday. p. 61. ISBN 9780385420754.
>
> Arne
>
>

Not everything on Wikipedia is correct. I've found things about me that
were incorrect.

As for Gates and Allen, I remember their work on that version of Basic.
The reason I remember it so well, is because they didn't use bytes for
some things, they used nibbles. Memory was rather valuable in those days.

I can also say that there is much difference between that Basic and
Basic Plus.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 5/14/2021 7:11 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> On 5/13/2021 9:14 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
>>> Microsoft BASIC (originally "Altair BASIC") was based on the BASIC for the
>>> PDP-10 (later rechristened the "DECsystem-10" when a new processor, the KI-10,
>>> was introducec). Bill Gates and Paul Allen learned BASIC first on a GE-635
>>> running GECOS (on the GE Information Systems network), then expanded their use
>>> on a PDP-10 in Seattle.
>
>>> DISCLAIMER: I worked for Paul Allen for 15 years, building his computer museum,
>>> and was a first reader for his autobiography, so I'm very well aware of where
>>> he learned BASIC. In point of fact, neither of them ever programmed on a
>>> PDP-11 (personal communication from PGA).
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_BASIC
>
>> explains where the story come from.
>
>> <quote>
>> The Altair BASIC interpreter was developed by Microsoft founders Paul
>> Allen and Bill Gates using a self-made Intel 8080 emulator running on a
>> PDP-10 minicomputer.[1] The MS dialect is patterned on Digital Equipment
>> Corporation's BASIC-PLUS on the PDP-11, which Gates had used in high
>> school.[2] The first versions supported integer math only, but Monte
>> Davidoff convinced them that floating-point arithmetic was possible, and
>> wrote a library which became the Microsoft Binary Format.
>> </quote>
>
>> 2. Manes, Stephen (1993). Gates. Doubleday. p. 61. ISBN 9780385420754.
>
> I stand by my access to the authors of MS BASIC rather than an third party who
> does not understand that BASIC for the PDP-11
>
> *DID NOT EXIST WHEN THEY WERE IN HIGH SCHOOL*.
>
> Wikipedia is very often wrong.

And in this case it claims that Basic+ goes back to 1970
and Bill Gates graduated high school in 1973.

Arne

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Bill
>Gunshannon via Info-vax
>Sent: May-13-21 9:21 AM
>To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>Cc: Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com>
>Subject: [Info-vax] OS Ancestry
>
>
>I have become very curious about the ancestry of VMS. (I am going to look
>into some others, but for VMS I do have this outlet for information!)
>
>Both Primos and Unix came from people recently working on Multics. Primos
>went in the same direction as Multics while Unix appeared to go in a very
>different direction.
>
>VMS is more similar to Primos than Unix. I have seen it said that RSX-11
was
>the immediate parent of VMS. Was that true?
>Given that, what is the ancestry going back even further?
>Where did VMS actually get its start paradigm-wise?
>
>Anybody here have any of this information?
>
>bill
>

Another pretty good link for those looking for VMS history:

<http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/Bell_Retrospective_PDP11_paper_
c1998.htm>

"A Retrospective on What We Have Learned From the PDP-11:
What Else Did We Need to Know That Could Have Been Useful in the Design of
the VAX-11 to Make Alpha Easier?

"VMS is the Architecture That Mattered. not PDP-11, VAX, or Alpha"

Gordon Bell
Senior Researcher, Microsoft Corp.
Bay Area Research Center, San Francisco, CA

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:

> And in this case it claims that Basic+ goes back to 1970
> and Bill Gates graduated high school in 1973.

I repeat: Neither Bill Gates nor Paul Allen programmed on a PDP-11, in high
school or after graduation.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

On 2021-05-15, <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Another pretty good link for those looking for VMS history:
>
><http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/Bell_Retrospective_PDP11_paper_
> c1998.htm>
>
> "A Retrospective on What We Have Learned From the PDP-11:
> What Else Did We Need to Know That Could Have Been Useful in the Design of
> the VAX-11 to Make Alpha Easier?
>
> "VMS is the Architecture That Mattered. not PDP-11, VAX, or Alpha"
>

From that link:

| Thus, our real oversight was not understanding that VMS should have been
| built on the C machine for portability across any architecture.

This. 5 zillion times this. VMS could have become like Unix in dominance
if this had been the case.

Want to move VMS to a new architecture in this setup ? It would have been
a comparable effort to what is involved in porting Linux to yet another
architecture, instead of the current effort that is involved.

VMS was designed at too low of an abstraction level.

Also, while he mentions BLISS, he skips over all the Macro-32 usage
and, based on discussions here, all the internal calling conventions
within the VMS kernel that requires those registers.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 5/17/2021 8:18 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-05-15, <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Another pretty good link for those looking for VMS history:
>>
>> <http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/Bell_Retrospective_PDP11_paper_
>> c1998.htm>
>>
>> "A Retrospective on What We Have Learned From the PDP-11:
>> What Else Did We Need to Know That Could Have Been Useful in the Design of
>> the VAX-11 to Make Alpha Easier?
>>
>> "VMS is the Architecture That Mattered. not PDP-11, VAX, or Alpha"
>
> From that link:
>
> | Thus, our real oversight was not understanding that VMS should have been
> | built on the C machine for portability across any architecture.
>
> This. 5 zillion times this. VMS could have become like Unix in dominance
> if this had been the case.
>
> Want to move VMS to a new architecture in this setup ? It would have been
> a comparable effort to what is involved in porting Linux to yet another
> architecture, instead of the current effort that is involved.
>
> VMS was designed at too low of an abstraction level.

But it is worth remembering that back then (second half 1970's) then
it was not common to write OS in C. Assembler and proprietary languages
was common. That changed in the next 10-15 years.

But that one would be better off if one was able to predict the
future 10 years out is rather obvious.

Arne

On 17/05/2021 13:22, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 5/17/2021 8:18 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2021-05-15, <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Another pretty good link for those looking for VMS history:
>>>
>>> <http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/Bell_Retrospective_PDP11_paper_
>>>
>>> c1998.htm>
>>>
>>> "A Retrospective on What We Have Learned From the PDP-11:
>>> What Else Did We Need to Know That Could Have Been Useful in the
>>> Design of
>>> the VAX-11 to Make Alpha Easier?
>>>
>>> "VMS is the Architecture That Mattered. not PDP-11, VAX, or Alpha"
>>
>>  From that link:
>>
>> | Thus, our real oversight was not understanding that VMS should have
>> been
>> | built on the C machine for portability across any architecture.
>>
>> This. 5 zillion times this. VMS could have become like Unix in dominance
>> if this had been the case.
>>
>> Want to move VMS to a new architecture in this setup ? It would have been
>> a comparable effort to what is involved in porting Linux to yet another
>> architecture, instead of the current effort that is involved.
>>
>> VMS was designed at too low of an abstraction level.
>
> But it is worth remembering that back then (second half 1970's) then
> it was not common to write OS in C. Assembler and proprietary languages
> was common. That changed in the next 10-15 years.
>
> But that one would be better off if one was able to predict the
> future 10 years out is rather obvious.
>
> Arne
>
Didn't Unix change that? Was it not built in C from day 1?

--
Chris Townley

On 5/17/21 8:59 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
> On 17/05/2021 13:22, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 5/17/2021 8:18 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-15, <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> <kemain.nospam@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Another pretty good link for those looking for VMS history:
>>>>
>>>> <http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/Bell_Retrospective_PDP11_paper_
>>>>
>>>> c1998.htm>
>>>>
>>>> "A Retrospective on What We Have Learned From the PDP-11:
>>>> What Else Did We Need to Know That Could Have Been Useful in the
>>>> Design of
>>>> the VAX-11 to Make Alpha Easier?
>>>>
>>>> "VMS is the Architecture That Mattered. not PDP-11, VAX, or Alpha"
>>>
>>>  From that link:
>>>
>>> | Thus, our real oversight was not understanding that VMS should have
>>> been
>>> | built on the C machine for portability across any architecture.
>>>
>>> This. 5 zillion times this. VMS could have become like Unix in dominance
>>> if this had been the case.
>>>
>>> Want to move VMS to a new architecture in this setup ? It would have
>>> been
>>> a comparable effort to what is involved in porting Linux to yet another
>>> architecture, instead of the current effort that is involved.
>>>
>>> VMS was designed at too low of an abstraction level.
>>
>> But it is worth remembering that back then (second half 1970's) then
>> it was not common to write OS in C. Assembler and proprietary languages
>> was common. That changed in the next 10-15 years.
>>
>> But that one would be better off if one was able to predict the
>> future 10 years out is rather obvious.
>>
>> Arne
>>
> Didn't Unix change that? Was it not built in C from day 1?
>

No, it started as PDP-7 Assembler and was originally called Unics,
a pun on Multics.

bill