https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs

Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.

John

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 3:46:09 PM UTC-7, John Dallman wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
>
> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
> clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
>
> John

This is the most exciting news I've seen from VSI in quite a while. I hope there will be a kit like when Be released their x86 port that developers can buy at a reasonable price with the appropriate licenses.

John Dallman wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing,"

Who is that living in the "dirty basement"?

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 06:01:50 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> John Dallman wrote:
>
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
> > Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing,"
> Who is that living in the "dirty basement"?

There wouldn't be much point in a $300 board if the OS license is $$$'s

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 3:46:09 PM UTC-7, John Dallman wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
>
> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
> clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
>
> John

Congratulations on this work.
This being c.o.v., where would it be w/o a peanut gallery?
o Operating scripts in DCL? It's one tool. I could also sharpen pencils with a cheese grater. "When the only tool you have is a hammer..."
o Security on the GPIO interface? Maybe ACLs? or somesuch to harden that a bit. Security isn't mentioned much in this presentation. Which is a real omission given the zeigeist of insecure IoT .

and finally:
Who will contribute to this effort given the tooling available on OVMS? Knowing what I do about Rust, it's just too painful to contemplate developing system software in C or assembler. See also, the concurrent discussions about other DECset tools.
I have to admit that I haven't been following VMS Software as closely as I should, but I see real a software development boostrapping problem here. I mean this to be apropos of a comment by Mark Mothersbaugh regarding the instruments used by Devo. Something to effect of "Imagine what we'd sound like if we used better instruments..."

On 2021-06-01, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
>
> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
> clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
>
> John

Does anyone really think that this is a viable market for VMS ?

How many times more expensive than the US$300 board will VMS be
to run on that board in a commercial environment ?

Why would someone learn VMS for this instead of just using an
established bare metal or RTOS alternative ?

Will you need to renew the VMS licence every year to keep your
embedded application running ?

This is exactly the kind of application use that VAXELN was designed
for a generation ago (ie: VMS didn't cut it even back then) and for
which multiple well-established dedicated RTOS options exist these days
if you need something larger than a bare metal program.

This is an example of the kind of thing that's available for free these days:

https://www.rtems.org/

An example of a technical issue:

If you are doing GPIO operations then you need a dedicated RTOS or
bare metal program which then talks to a larger system unless you
are doing something with very low bandwidth that can tolerate a high
degree of jitter.

What kind of jitter are you going to see if you try driving the GPIO
pins directly from VMS ?

Even ignoring jitter, then at what kind of rate will you be able
to drive the GPIO pins directly from VMS ?

You will not be doing hard realtime with this setup.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 2:05:38 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-06-01, John Dallman <j...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
> >
> > Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
> > clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
> >
> > John
> Does anyone really think that this is a viable market for VMS ?
>
> How many times more expensive than the US$300 board will VMS be
> to run on that board in a commercial environment ?
>
> Why would someone learn VMS for this instead of just using an
> established bare metal or RTOS alternative ?
>
> Will you need to renew the VMS licence every year to keep your
> embedded application running ?
>
> This is exactly the kind of application use that VAXELN was designed
> for a generation ago (ie: VMS didn't cut it even back then) and for
> which multiple well-established dedicated RTOS options exist these days
> if you need something larger than a bare metal program.
>
> This is an example of the kind of thing that's available for free these days:
>
> https://www.rtems.org/
>
> An example of a technical issue:
>
> If you are doing GPIO operations then you need a dedicated RTOS or
> bare metal program which then talks to a larger system unless you
> are doing something with very low bandwidth that can tolerate a high
> degree of jitter.
>
> What kind of jitter are you going to see if you try driving the GPIO
> pins directly from VMS ?
>
> Even ignoring jitter, then at what kind of rate will you be able
> to drive the GPIO pins directly from VMS ?
>
> You will not be doing hard realtime with this setup.
>
> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

the license can be incorporated into the price as a one time license purchase good for the life of the device

On 6/2/2021 4:27 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 2:05:38 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> Will you need to renew the VMS licence every year to keep your
>> embedded application running ?

> the license can be incorporated into the price as a one time license purchase good for the life of the device

You must have missed a thread here.

Arne

On 6/2/2021 2:05 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-06-01, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
>>
>> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
>> clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
>>
>> John
>
> Does anyone really think that this is a viable market for VMS ?

Apparently someone thinks it might be.

> How many times more expensive than the US$300 board will VMS be
> to run on that board in a commercial environment ?

Since pricing for such a use doesn't yet exist, how can anyone answer
that question?

> Why would someone learn VMS for this instead of just using an
> established bare metal or RTOS alternative ?

Someone who knows VMS and doesn't know your RTOS ...

Someone who wants to use Basic ...

> Will you need to renew the VMS licence every year to keep your
> embedded application running ?

See above concerning cost ...

> This is exactly the kind of application use that VAXELN was designed
> for a generation ago (ie: VMS didn't cut it even back then) and for
> which multiple well-established dedicated RTOS options exist these days
> if you need something larger than a bare metal program.

I could imagine a situation where what VMS can do makes a particular
task much easier. It really would depend on several things, including
the task requirements, what VSI has to do the job, and such.

> This is an example of the kind of thing that's available for free these days:
>
> https://www.rtems.org/
>
> An example of a technical issue:
>
> If you are doing GPIO operations then you need a dedicated RTOS or
> bare metal program which then talks to a larger system unless you
> are doing something with very low bandwidth that can tolerate a high
> degree of jitter.
>
> What kind of jitter are you going to see if you try driving the GPIO
> pins directly from VMS ?
>
> Even ignoring jitter, then at what kind of rate will you be able
> to drive the GPIO pins directly from VMS ?
>
> You will not be doing hard realtime with this setup.

How often is hard real time actually needed?

How often is a more robust environment needed?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 02/06/2021 23:08, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 6/2/2021 4:27 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 2:05:38 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> Will you need to renew the VMS licence every year to keep your
>>> embedded application running ?
>
>> the license can be incorporated into the price as a one time license
>> purchase good for the life of the device
>
> You must have missed a thread here.
>
> Arne
>
>
They would surely need a different model for the IOT

--
Chris

On 6/2/2021 4:25 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 6:46:09 PM UTC-4, John Dallman wrote:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
>>
>> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
>> clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
>>
>> John
>
> who is porting the browser?
>

What makes you think a browser is needed?

There has been a history of VMS running in a closet somewhere, not
looked at for months at a time. Something that doesn't need a lot of
hand holding. Something that doesn't run on "clicks".

Perhaps there are some tasks where VMs would be a good fit.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Den 2021-06-03 kl. 00:18, skrev Dave Froble:
> On 6/2/2021 4:25 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 6:46:09 PM UTC-4, John Dallman wrote:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
>>>
>>> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
>>> clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
>>>
>>> John
>>
>> who is porting the browser?
>>
>
> What makes you think a browser is needed?
>
> There has been a history of VMS running in a closet somewhere, not looked
> at for months at a time.  Something that doesn't need a lot of hand
> holding.  Something that doesn't run on "clicks".
>
> Perhaps there are some tasks where VMs would be a good fit.
>

This box would run a web server, not a browser, of course. You use
the box for some embedded thing and access it for support and
configuration using your browser on your standard desktop.

On 02/06/2021 23:42, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2021-06-03 kl. 00:18, skrev Dave Froble:
>> On 6/2/2021 4:25 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 6:46:09 PM UTC-4, John Dallman wrote:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
>>>>
>>>> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
>>>> clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>
>>> who is porting the browser?
>>>
>>
>> What makes you think a browser is needed?
>>
>> There has been a history of VMS running in a closet somewhere, not
>> looked at for months at a time.  Something that doesn't need a lot of
>> hand holding.  Something that doesn't run on "clicks".
>>
>> Perhaps there are some tasks where VMs would be a good fit.
>>
>
> This box would run a web server, not a browser, of course. You use
> the box for some embedded thing and access it for support and
> configuration using your browser on your standard desktop.

Surely not - it would be ssh and the CLI - DCL!

--
Chris

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 6:18:44 PM UTC-4, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 6/2/2021 4:25 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 6:46:09 PM UTC-4, John Dallman wrote:
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
> >>
> >> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
> >> clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
> >>
> >> John
> >
> > who is porting the browser?
> >
> What makes you think a browser is needed?
>
> There has been a history of VMS running in a closet somewhere, not
> looked at for months at a time. Something that doesn't need a lot of
> hand holding. Something that doesn't run on "clicks".
>
> Perhaps there are some tasks where VMs would be a good fit.
> --
> David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> 170 Grimplin Road
> Vanderbilt, PA 15486

because then OpenVMS becomes available to the common user (desktop) apps
with the ad pitch being "eliminate ransomware, malware and security tools for good"

On 6/2/2021 7:32 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 6:18:44 PM UTC-4, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 6/2/2021 4:25 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 6:46:09 PM UTC-4, John Dallman wrote:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H6AJigJnNs
>>>>
>>>> Running VMS on small systems for "edge computing," which is given the
>>>> clearest explanation I've encountered for that term.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>
>>> who is porting the browser?
>>>
>> What makes you think a browser is needed?
>>
>> There has been a history of VMS running in a closet somewhere, not
>> looked at for months at a time. Something that doesn't need a lot of
>> hand holding. Something that doesn't run on "clicks".
>>
>> Perhaps there are some tasks where VMs would be a good fit.
>> --
>> David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
>> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
>> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
>> 170 Grimplin Road
>> Vanderbilt, PA 15486
>
> because then OpenVMS becomes available to the common user (desktop) apps
> with the ad pitch being "eliminate ransomware, malware and security tools for good"
>

You are aware that is not the topic of this thread?

Oh, wait, it's Bob, he doesn't care ...

I must observe that at this time, ransomware is a rather good friend to
VMS. Caviets are IT people would need to be aware of VMS, and, it may
someday be a target. But not today.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2021-06-02, ultr...@gmail.com <ultradwc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> because then OpenVMS becomes available to the common user (desktop) apps
> with the ad pitch being "eliminate ransomware, malware and security tools for good"

Don't go there Bob. Seriously.

VMS is missing the required desktop applications.

VMS is missing security protections common in other operating systems.

Anyone saying the above does not have a clue about what is required
on the desktop or what is standard on other operating systems when
it comes to security.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Den 2021-06-03 kl. 14:11, skrev Simon Clubley:
> On 2021-06-02, ultr...@gmail.com <ultradwc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> because then OpenVMS becomes available to the common user (desktop) apps
>> with the ad pitch being "eliminate ransomware, malware and security tools for good"
>
> Don't go there Bob. Seriously.
>
> VMS is missing the required desktop applications.
>
> VMS is missing security protections common in other operating systems.
>
> Anyone saying the above does not have a clue about what is required
> on the desktop or what is standard on other operating systems when
> it comes to security.
>
> Simon.
>

Right!

And this new "gadget" is (of course) not even targeted at the "desktop".

It is an embedded/IoT thing that will be managed over a web interface
and othervise just run by itself. Sure, it will have an CLI interface
also, but that is not suitable for beeing in this market segment.

On 2021-06-02, Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote:
> On 02/06/2021 23:08, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 6/2/2021 4:27 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 2:05:38 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> Will you need to renew the VMS licence every year to keep your
>>>> embedded application running ?
>>
>>> the license can be incorporated into the price as a one time license
>>> purchase good for the life of the device
>>
>> You must have missed a thread here.
>>
>> Arne
>>
>>
> They would surely need a different model for the IOT
>

This is VSI management we are talking about. Based on what has happened
so far, I'm not convinced they will think like that.

They are more likely to worry about people using them for normal data
processing use to try and get around the time-limited licences if they
change the licencing model for the IoT devices.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 6/3/2021 8:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-06-02, ultr...@gmail.com <ultradwc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> because then OpenVMS becomes available to the common user (desktop) apps
>> with the ad pitch being "eliminate ransomware, malware and security tools for good"
>
> Don't go there Bob. Seriously.

Why not? It might work for some people.

> VMS is missing the required desktop applications.

"Required" might not be easy to specify. Lots of different
"requirements" out there.

> VMS is missing security protections common in other operating systems.

You mean all those "secure" systems that are constantly being hacked,
invaded with ransomware and such. Are those the "common security
protections" you're talking about?

Perhaps I'd rather be not as "secure" ...

> Anyone saying the above does not have a clue about what is required
> on the desktop or what is standard on other operating systems when
> it comes to security.

"Standard" as in "known how to hack"? Perhaps it's time for another
direction?

Ok, I'll admit, I don't use VMS on the desktop. Got to have my WEENDOZE
bloatware.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 6/3/21 06:39, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 6/3/2021 8:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2021-06-02, ultr...@gmail.com <ultradwc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> because then OpenVMS becomes available to the common user (desktop) apps
>>> with the ad pitch being "eliminate ransomware, malware and security tools for good"
>>
>> Don't go there Bob. Seriously.
>
> Why not? It might work for some people.
>
>> VMS is missing the required desktop applications.
>
> "Required" might not be easy to specify. Lots of different "requirements" out there.
>
>> VMS is missing security protections common in other operating systems.
>
> You mean all those "secure" systems that are constantly being hacked, invaded with ransomware and such. Are those the "common security protections" you're talking about?
>
> Perhaps I'd rather be not as "secure" ...
>
>> Anyone saying the above does not have a clue about what is required
>> on the desktop or what is standard on other operating systems when
>> it comes to security.
>
> "Standard" as in "known how to hack"? Perhaps it's time for another direction?
>
> Ok, I'll admit, I don't use VMS on the desktop. Got to have my WEENDOZE bloatware.
>
Apple turned an also-ran Unix into a global desktop & mobile OS. Remember when the VAX instruction set was designed for VMS? And yet only Apple seems to understand the combination of hardware and software is what drives sales.. Other than MacOS, I can't think of a major OS that's been ported to so many different ISA. It's sad that the owners of VMS never understood that sales/engineering dynamic. So many Dilbert cartoons, so little time...

On 6/3/2021 10:45 AM, plugh wrote:
> Apple turned an also-ran Unix into a global desktop & mobile OS.
> Remember when the VAX instruction set was designed for VMS? And yet
> only Apple seems to understand the combination of hardware and
> software is what drives sales. Other than MacOS, I can't think of a
> major OS that's been ported to so many different ISA. It's sad that
> the owners of VMS never understood that sales/engineering dynamic. So
> many Dilbert cartoons, so little time...

I am not sure that I see your point.

Apple exited the server market 10 years ago, because that market
wanted x86-64 and Linux.

Apple is making truckloads of money selling phones with an
OS that deep down has a few Unix things.

So should VSI exit the server OS market, rewrite most of
VMS for phone and start production of phones?

I do not have much faith in that business plan.

Arne

On 6/3/2021 11:03 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 6/3/2021 10:45 AM, plugh wrote:
>> Apple turned an also-ran Unix into a global desktop & mobile OS.
>> Remember when the VAX instruction set was designed for VMS? And yet
>> only Apple seems to understand the combination of hardware and
>> software is what drives sales. Other than MacOS, I can't think of a
>> major OS that's been ported to so many different ISA. It's sad that
>> the owners of VMS never understood that sales/engineering dynamic. So
>> many Dilbert cartoons, so little time...
>
> I am not sure that I see your point.

His point is, when narrow minded thinking is not involved, many things
are possible.

"Can't" never accomplished anything ...

Not every "try" is a winner, but not trying is guaranteed to fail.

I know that you're tired of my "stories" by now, or at least you should
be. But brace yourself, here comes another one.

Many years ago I took on a friend to run and grow one of my ventures. I
chose the wrong type of individual. Every time I suggested something
the business might be able to do, he always had reasons why "we can't do
that". The venture did not grow, and eventually I could not carry him
any more.

"Can't" will never accomplish anything.

Should work on a VMS based browser happen? Perhaps, and perhaps not.

Clear thinking on the worth of such a venture would be required. Can it
be done? For sure. Is it worth doing? Best guess is no. I've been
wrong before.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2021-06-03 04:09:27 +0000, Dave Froble said:

> I must observe that at this time, ransomware is a rather good friend to
> VMS. Caviets are IT people would need to be aware of VMS, and, it may
> someday be a target. But not today.

I've been involved in two cases of ransoming on OpenVMS. I expect there
have been others too, handled quietly. Been involved in OpenVMS
security breaches, too. Fun times. Not.

If you're not taking steps to secure your apps and source code and
data—WORM tapes, and/or off-site, and/or whatever—it's time to start
taking a very serious look around your data centers.

That some of these breaches involved the attackers investigating the
computer and network environment for weeks or months—before the data
encryption started—should scare all of us.

--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

On 6/3/2021 11:41 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 6/3/2021 11:03 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 6/3/2021 10:45 AM, plugh wrote:
>>> Apple turned an also-ran Unix into a global desktop & mobile OS.
>>> Remember when the VAX instruction set was designed for VMS? And yet
>>> only Apple seems to understand the combination of hardware and
>>> software is what drives sales. Other than MacOS, I can't think of a
>>> major OS that's been ported to so many different ISA. It's sad that
>>> the owners of VMS never understood that sales/engineering dynamic. So
>>> many Dilbert cartoons, so little time...
>>
>> I am not sure that I see your point.
>
> His point is, when narrow minded thinking is not involved, many things
> are possible.
>
> "Can't" never accomplished anything ...
>
> Not every "try" is a winner, but not trying is guaranteed to fail.
>
> I know that you're tired of my "stories" by now, or at least you should
> be.  But brace yourself, here comes another one.
>
> Many years ago I took on a friend to run and grow one of my ventures.  I
> chose the wrong type of individual.  Every time I suggested something
> the business might be able to do, he always had reasons why "we can't do
> that".  The venture did not grow, and eventually I could not carry him
> any more.
>
> "Can't" will never accomplish anything.
>
> Should work on a VMS based browser happen?  Perhaps, and perhaps not.
>
> Clear thinking on the worth of such a venture would be required.  Can it
> be done?  For sure.  Is it worth doing?  Best guess is no.  I've been
> wrong before.

I actually agree with that point.

I always liked the well-known quote:

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high
and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."

But it was not obvious to me that was the point of the
Apple story.

Arne

On 6/3/21 9:39 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 6/3/2021 8:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2021-06-02, ultr...@gmail.com <ultradwc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> because then OpenVMS becomes available to the common user (desktop) apps
>>> with the ad pitch being "eliminate ransomware, malware and security
>>> tools for good"
>>
>> Don't go there Bob. Seriously.
>
> Why not?  It might work for some people.
>
>> VMS is missing the required desktop applications.
>
> "Required" might not be easy to specify.  Lots of different
> "requirements" out there.
>
>> VMS is missing security protections common in other operating systems.
>
> You mean all those "secure" systems that are constantly being hacked,
> invaded with ransomware and such.  Are those the "common security
> protections" you're talking about?
>
> Perhaps I'd rather be not as "secure" ...

Either you don;lt understand any of this or you just haven't been paying
attention. The places being hit are, in most of the stated cases, not
using any of the accepted security practices.

Why are critical systems even on the Internet? Why do these people not
have backups to fall back on? (I worked in the CS Dept. of a University.
Not what most people would consider in any way critical.

My backup scheme would have allowed me to resume operations with no
more than a 4 hour loss of data. I did that with no additional budet
and running strictly COTS.)

bill