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computers / news.software.readers / Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

SubjectAuthor
* betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
+* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Adam H. Kerman
|`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
| `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Adam H. Kerman
|  `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
+* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?The Doctor
|`- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 +* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Russ Allbery
 |`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 | +* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Ray Banana
 | |`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 | | `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |  `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
 | |   `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |    `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Julien ÉLIE
 | |     +* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 | |     |`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Russ Allbery
 | |     | `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Olivier Miakinen
 | |     +- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Olivier Miakinen
 | |     `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      +- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Olivier Miakinen
 | |      +* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Ray Banana
 | |      |+* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 | |      ||`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?J.B. Nicholson
 | |      || +- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 | |      || `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      ||  `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?issdr
 | |      |+* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
 | |      ||`- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 | |      |`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      | +* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
 | |      | |`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Jakob Bohm
 | |      | | `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      | |  `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Jakob Bohm
 | |      | |   `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      | +* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 | |      | |+* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      | ||`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 | |      | || `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      | |+* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Jakob Bohm
 | |      | ||+* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      | |||`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Jakob Bohm
 | |      | ||| `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      | |||  `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Jakob Bohm
 | |      | |||   `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      | ||`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
 | |      | || `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Jakob Bohm
 | |      | ||  `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
 | |      | |`* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?J.B. Nicholson
 | |      | | +* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 | |      | | |`- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?J.B. Nicholson
 | |      | | `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Matija Nalis
 | |      | `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Russ Allbery
 | |      |  `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Frank Slootweg
 | |      `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Julien ÉLIE
 | `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?Russ Allbery
 |  `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH
 `* Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?candycanearter07
  `- Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?VanguardLH

Pages:123
betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<uftnus$2voq4$1@dont-email.me>

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From: no...@thanks.net (candycanearter07)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2023 03:06:52 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: candycanearter07 - Sun, 8 Oct 2023 08:06 UTC

Hi,
For cross-posts, is there any way to automatically mark the message read
in the other groups its posted to once I read it?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<uftpcc$303mh$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2023 08:31:08 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Adam H. Kerman - Sun, 8 Oct 2023 08:31 UTC

candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:

>For cross-posts, is there any way to automatically mark the message read
>in the other groups its posted to once I read it?

Look at the Xref: header. It has the server's article number in each
newsgroup in the crosspost. This will allow your newsreader to update
its list of read articles in each newsgroup in the crosspost.

Check your newsreader's settings. Otherwise you'll have to ask in the
betterbird developer's support forum.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ufu3jb$2msr$25@gallifrey.nk.ca>

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From: doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2023 11:25:31 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: NetKnow News
Message-ID: <ufu3jb$2msr$25@gallifrey.nk.ca>
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X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
Originator: doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
 by: The Doctor - Sun, 8 Oct 2023 11:25 UTC

In article <uftnus$2voq4$1@dont-email.me>,
candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:
>Hi,
>For cross-posts, is there any way to automatically mark the message read
>in the other groups its posted to once I read it?

Yes AFAIK. Which newsware are you using?

>--
>user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b
An oil stain on the carpet is not removed by picking up the litter. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

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From: no...@thanks.net (candycanearter07)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2023 06:27:47 -0500
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 by: candycanearter07 - Sun, 8 Oct 2023 11:27 UTC

On 10/8/23 03:31, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Check your newsreader's settings. Otherwise you'll have to ask in the
> betterbird developer's support forum.

I looked, couldn't find anything in settings.

https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.thunderbird/c/S5tSRiGR0w8
Seems that the solution proposed is "use filters and check cross posting
manually" which kinda sucks. It almost makes me want to switch to Claws,
but that one is broken too (doesn't display newsgroup list in subscribe
menu)
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ufu3ti$2voq5$1@dont-email.me>

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From: no...@thanks.net (candycanearter07)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2023 06:30:58 -0500
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 by: candycanearter07 - Sun, 8 Oct 2023 11:30 UTC

On 10/8/23 06:25, The Doctor wrote:
> Yes AFAIK. Which newsware are you using?

Stated in Subject, Betterbird.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ufurb6$386el$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2023 18:10:46 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Adam H. Kerman - Sun, 8 Oct 2023 18:10 UTC

candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:
>On 10/8/23 03:31, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>Check your newsreader's settings. Otherwise you'll have to ask in the
>>betterbird developer's support forum.

>I looked, couldn't find anything in settings.

>https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.thunderbird/c/S5tSRiGR0w8
>Seems that the solution proposed is "use filters and check cross posting
>manually" which kinda sucks. It almost makes me want to switch to Claws,
>but that one is broken too (doesn't display newsgroup list in subscribe
>menu)

Betterbird is being actively developed, doing bug fixes that Mozilla has
ignored for decades, sometimes.

What happens if you start with a fresh profile rather than importing
your Thunderbird profile?

betterbird.eu

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ufuvce$2voq5$3@dont-email.me>

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From: no...@thanks.net (candycanearter07)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
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 by: candycanearter07 - Sun, 8 Oct 2023 19:19 UTC

On 10/8/23 13:10, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> What happens if you start with a fresh profile rather than importing
> your Thunderbird profile?
>
> betterbird.eu

I'll try to remember later today.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<1qnm7s6fh6uot$.dlg@v.nguard.lh>

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
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 by: VanguardLH - Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:32 UTC

candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:

> For cross-posts, is there any way to automatically mark the message read
> in the other groups its posted to once I read it?

Note that article numbers are independently assigned at each NNTP
server. There is no synchronization of article numbers across NNTP
servers. Hence there is no cross-posting across servers. If you are
seeing the same article in multiple newsgroups, but the newsgroups are
subscribed on different servers, it was a multi-post, not a cross-post.

To tracking cross-posting means having to track article numbers. When
cross-posted, only a single copy of a post is sent to the server, and
the server adds pointers to the same article based on the Newsgroups
header. More efficient to have multiple pointers to the same article.

Alas, the client won't have the indexing to know about pointers to
multiple newsgroups for the same article. The client only has the
Message-ID to track across its local store of messages, so it is
possible to connect cross-posts across multiple newsgroups. That would
require the "mark as read" action to scan all the subscribed newsgroups
to find the same MID value. How many newsgroups to which a message was
cross-posted wouldn't be an impact on performance, but the number of
subscribed newsgroups would impact performance in how many newsgroups
the client would have to search. You can delete a message in one
newsgroup, but it remains in another newsgroup. The client isn't
creating pointers to articles across newsgroups as does the server.

Rather than search across many subscribed newsgroups, the client could
use the Xref header, if present, to determine in which newsgroups a
message got cross-posted. That would shorten the time for "mark as
read" to find the other copies of the message. Clicking on a button,
and having to wait for the action to complete, is counter ease-of-use.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1036
Section 2.2.13

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43278

A problem noted there is that the client may not yet have populated the
other newsgroups into which a message got cross-posted. The "mark as
read" action would be stalled by however long it takes for the client to
retrieve all messages (well, those that cover the cross-posted article)
in the Xref newsgroups before they could also get marked as read. You'd
punch the "read as mark" button while in one newsgroup, but have to wait
for its commit to complete until all other Xref newsgroups got polled,
and newsgroups aren't polled in the same order as Xref. It's almost as
if "read as mark" would have to act as a post-retrieve-all-subscribed-
newsgroups action; i.e., you couldn't mark any message as read until all
subscribed newsgroups got retrieved. The same for when marking as
unread.

From this 22-year old bug, implementing the read state across multiple
newsgroups for cross-posted messages doesn't seem that easy a task.
Your request isn't new. About a year ago, this ticket changed from
minor (problem worth reporting & fixing, but do not interfere with
normal work or use) to S4 (Important, but not that much. May get fixed
someday).

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/Fields/Severity
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/Fields/Priority

Per this ticket, doesn't look like any dev is still interested in
implementing the feature. Interest died out. Since Betterbird is a
fork of Thunderbird, and since the feature request faded in Thunderbird,
my guess is nothing for it showed up in Betterbird.

One suggestion in the ticket was to order the folders (newsgroup) as to
how you visit them, and use rules in following folders that were
dependent those on you already visiting the prior folders. You visit
the top folder, mark as read, then visit the 2nd folder, and a rule
checks the prior folder for read state, and so on. However, this
requires you always visit the folders in top-down order, and never
bounce around the folders. See bugzillaroid's post 114 of 5 years ago.
I do bounce around the folders since I only want to visit those
newsgroups that show new/unread messages. No point for me to visit
newsgroups with no new messages (that survived filtering).

Does Tbird poll all newsgroups, and retrieve all new message in every
one (shown as a folder in the tree pane)? Or does it poll a newsgroup
only when the folder (newsgroup) is selected in the tree?

There is a German forum for Betterbird at:

https://www.thunderbird-mail.de/forum/board/91-betterbird/

They would probably know better the capabilities of that Tbird fork,
like if that project added read-state by MessageID (or article number
via Xref) across newsgroups. Get ready with Google Translate.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<87y1g5yxux.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 09:25:58 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87y1g5yxux.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sat, 14 Oct 2023 16:25 UTC

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> writes:

> Rather than search across many subscribed newsgroups, the client could
> use the Xref header, if present, to determine in which newsgroups a
> message got cross-posted.

Indeed, this is what essentially every client does and what they should
do.

> That would shorten the time for "mark as read" to find the other copies
> of the message.

It makes it essentially instantaneous, since it means the reader doesn't
have to find other copies at all. It already knows exactly which article
numbers to mark as read.

> A problem noted there is that the client may not yet have populated the
> other newsgroups into which a message got cross-posted. The "mark as
> read" action would be stalled by however long it takes for the client to
> retrieve all messages (well, those that cover the cross-posted article)
> in the Xref newsgroups before they could also get marked as read.

The client shouldn't have to retrieve articles to mark them as read. The
standard representation on the client that goes all the way back to the
very early days of Usenet is called a "newsrc". It holds a list of groups
(often both the unsubscribed and the subscribed groups so that read
articles are tracked properly if someone later subscribes to the group)
and a list of read articles by number in each group. In text form, it
looks something like this:

rec.arts.sf.misc! 1-14774,14786,14789
rec.arts.sf.reviews! 1-2534
rec.arts.sf.written: 1-876513
news.answers! 1-199359,213516,215735
news.announce.newusers! 1-4399
news.newusers.questions! 1-645661
news.groups.questions! 1-32676
news.software.readers! 1-95504,137265,137274,140059,140091,140117
alt.test! 1-1441498

":" indicates a subscribed newsgroup and "!" indicates an unsubscribed
newsgroup. This is a widely-used standard format that can be read by
multiple newsreaders so that you can switch between, say, trn and tin
freely and keep the same read article information.

Marking an article as read in the crossposted groups is as simple as
reading the group and article number pairs from the Xref header of the
article that was just read and adding the corresponding numbers to the
list of read articles in each group, coalescing ranges where needed. It
doesn't require any server operations and is extremely fast with any sort
of reasonable data structure on the client.

Usually the client couples this with a LIST ACTIVE command at each
startup, which very efficiently returns the full list of groups on the
server and the high and low water marks for each one. This allows the
client to discover new groups and to coalesce article ranges once articles
have expired and the low water mark moves forward.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<w29h803rmpn4.dlg@v.nguard.lh>

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:49:11 -0500
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 by: VanguardLH - Sat, 14 Oct 2023 17:49 UTC

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> writes:
>
>> Rather than search across many subscribed newsgroups, the client could
>> use the Xref header, if present, to determine in which newsgroups a
>> message got cross-posted.
>
> Indeed, this is what essentially every client does and what they should
> do.

Except that only tells you (the client) in which newsgroups an article
was cross-posted. You would still need the Message-ID value to find the
matching article in each of those newsgroups. Searching takes time.

From the bug ticket, there was a suggestion to change the records in the
MSF database files to add the MID to each message, so it could be SQL
searched by a field in a record in the message database (for each
folder) instead of having to search through the messages themselves.
The change would require dumping the old MSF databases to begin building
new ones. As I recall, there was some resistance to changing the record
structure, and require building new MSF files.

>> A problem noted there is that the client may not yet have populated the
>> other newsgroups into which a message got cross-posted. The "mark as
>> read" action would be stalled by however long it takes for the client to
>> retrieve all messages (well, those that cover the cross-posted article)
>> in the Xref newsgroups before they could also get marked as read.
>
> The client shouldn't have to retrieve articles to mark them as read. The
> standard representation on the client that goes all the way back to the
> very early days of Usenet is called a "newsrc". It holds a list of groups
> (often both the unsubscribed and the subscribed groups so that read
> articles are tracked properly if someone later subscribes to the group)
> and a list of read articles by number in each group. In text form, it
> looks something like this:
>
> rec.arts.sf.misc! 1-14774,14786,14789

Does Thunderbird currently store the article numbers of messages in its
MSF database files? The article number came from the server, but that
doesn't mean the client retains that info. One of the posters in the
bug ticket said some info in Xref was superfluous to Tbird. The Xref
would show the newsgroups where the message was cross-posted, but the
article number would get discarded as superfluous which hints article
numbers are not in a field for a record in the message database for a
message. I don't know the structure (fields) in the records in the MSF
message database files. I suppose I could do an SQLite query to find
out what fields are defined in the records, but I'm not so motivated,
especially since I gave up on Tbird over 3 years ago after many trials,
the last one of which was 6 months before I had to find something
better.

To eliminate having to rebuild MSF files, seems a field could be added
to the end of the record for the article number. If the field were
missing in a record, an SQL query on an article number would miss those
without a field holding the article number. The flag state for
cross-posted messages would be inconsistent at first until all records
got updated to add the new field. I don't know if SQLite requires
records to all have the same fields in every record (the same structure
for all records), or if some records could have missing fields. The SQL
query would be by field name, not by field position (within a record).

I don't recall Tbird uses .rc files, but I don't have an instance of
Tbird to check if it has any. Tbird seems first designed as an e-mail
client, and newsgroups were tacked on. Rather than have a combo client
(e-mail + newsgroups), perhaps they should slice apart the
functionality, so they can focus on fixing or enhancing an e-mail client
separate of fixing or enhancing a newsreader.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<slrnuilnm3.3uvei.rayban@raybanana.net>

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From: ray...@raybanana.net (Ray Banana)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 18:32:35 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Ray Banana - Sat, 14 Oct 2023 18:32 UTC

* VanguardLH wrote:
> Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
>> The client shouldn't have to retrieve articles to mark them as read. The
>> standard representation on the client that goes all the way back to the
>> very early days of Usenet is called a "newsrc". It holds a list of groups
>> (often both the unsubscribed and the subscribed groups so that read
>> articles are tracked properly if someone later subscribes to the group)
>> and a list of read articles by number in each group. In text form, it
>> looks something like this:
>>
>> rec.arts.sf.misc! 1-14774,14786,14789
>
> Does Thunderbird currently store the article numbers of messages in its
> MSF database files?

Not in the MSF files, but in the *.rc files.

> I don't recall Tbird uses .rc files

From my news.eternal-september.org.rc file:
--------------------------------------------
eternal-september.config: 1-958
eternal-september.grouprequests: 1-690
eternal-september.info: 1-64
eternal-september.moderated: 1-27,29
eternal-september.newusers: 1-1366
eternal-september.nocems: 1-27
eternal-september.talk: 1-1515
eternal-september.test: 1-10382,10397,10502,10503,10544,10546-10548
eternal-september.where.are.all.the.newsgroups: 1-2
control.checkgroups: 1-1649
control.newgroup: 1-875
control.rmgroup: 1-865
alt.de.test: 1-6609
uk.d-i-y: 1-1261447
eternal-september.support: 1-15165,15204-15209,15434,15438,15448-15450

This is what Russ was talking about and I can confirm that marking
a crossposted article as read in one group (or simply opening it)
also marks the article as read in all groups it was crossposted to.
It has been like that for more than 15 years, IIRC.

--
Пу́тін — хуйло́
http://www.eternal-september.org

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<87jzrpyr41.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 11:51:42 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87jzrpyr41.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sat, 14 Oct 2023 18:51 UTC

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> writes:

> Except that only tells you (the client) in which newsgroups an article
> was cross-posted. You would still need the Message-ID value to find the
> matching article in each of those newsgroups. Searching takes time.

If a news reader needs the message ID to mark an article as read, it's
doing something fairly odd.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

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From: no...@thanks.net (candycanearter07)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 17:29:32 -0500
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 by: candycanearter07 - Sat, 14 Oct 2023 22:29 UTC

On 10/14/23 05:32, VanguardLH wrote:
> Does Tbird poll all newsgroups, and retrieve all new message in every
> one (shown as a folder in the tree pane)? Or does it poll a newsgroup
> only when the folder (newsgroup) is selected in the tree?

You can set it to poll every x minutes and/or when you boot up TB. It
does always poll when you open a folder, I believe.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ofkn3js6yvvh$.dlg@v.nguard.lh>

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 18:19:47 -0500
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 by: VanguardLH - Sat, 14 Oct 2023 23:19 UTC

Ray Banana <rayban@raybanana.net> wrote:

> * VanguardLH wrote:
>> Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
>>> The client shouldn't have to retrieve articles to mark them as read. The
>>> standard representation on the client that goes all the way back to the
>>> very early days of Usenet is called a "newsrc". It holds a list of groups
>>> (often both the unsubscribed and the subscribed groups so that read
>>> articles are tracked properly if someone later subscribes to the group)
>>> and a list of read articles by number in each group. In text form, it
>>> looks something like this:
>>>
>>> rec.arts.sf.misc! 1-14774,14786,14789
>>
>> Does Thunderbird currently store the article numbers of messages in its
>> MSF database files?
>
> Not in the MSF files, but in the *.rc files.
>
>> I don't recall Tbird uses .rc files
>
> From my news.eternal-september.org.rc file:
> --------------------------------------------
> eternal-september.config: 1-958
> eternal-september.grouprequests: 1-690
> eternal-september.info: 1-64
> eternal-september.moderated: 1-27,29
> eternal-september.newusers: 1-1366
> eternal-september.nocems: 1-27
> eternal-september.talk: 1-1515
> eternal-september.test: 1-10382,10397,10502,10503,10544,10546-10548
> eternal-september.where.are.all.the.newsgroups: 1-2
> control.checkgroups: 1-1649
> control.newgroup: 1-875
> control.rmgroup: 1-865
> alt.de.test: 1-6609
> uk.d-i-y: 1-1261447
> eternal-september.support: 1-15165,15204-15209,15434,15438,15448-15450
>
> This is what Russ was talking about and I can confirm that marking
> a crossposted article as read in one group (or simply opening it)
> also marks the article as read in all groups it was crossposted to.
> It has been like that for more than 15 years, IIRC.

If all that were doable in other e-mail clients, seems inane that Tbird
hasn't accomplied the same feat for a 22-year old bug ticket. Comes
back to me thinking Tbird was first designed to be an e-mail client, and
newsgroups got tacked on.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<19v0iuuy2obny.dlg@v.nguard.lh>

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 18:21:21 -0500
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 by: VanguardLH - Sat, 14 Oct 2023 23:21 UTC

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> writes:
>
>> Except that only tells you (the client) in which newsgroups an article
>> was cross-posted. You would still need the Message-ID value to find the
>> matching article in each of those newsgroups. Searching takes time.
>
> If a news reader needs the message ID to mark an article as read, it's
> doing something fairly odd.

Yeah, that's what I felt when reading the 20-year old Tbird bug ticket
that seems to have petered out about a year ago. Seems the devs were
building a Rube Goldberg scheme.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<1plrow6oleq2u.dlg@v.nguard.lh>

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 18:23:20 -0500
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 by: VanguardLH - Sat, 14 Oct 2023 23:23 UTC

candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:

> On 10/14/23 05:32, VanguardLH wrote:
>> Does Tbird poll all newsgroups, and retrieve all new message in every
>> one (shown as a folder in the tree pane)? Or does it poll a newsgroup
>> only when the folder (newsgroup) is selected in the tree?
>
> You can set it to poll every x minutes and/or when you boot up TB. It
> does always poll when you open a folder, I believe.

That's probably why someone in the bug ticket that mentioned their
scheme of using rules based on the prior newsgroup visited would have to
open the folder in the same order as the rules. Bouncing around would
mean unvisited newsgroups would not get the read-flag updated.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

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From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: 15 Oct 2023 12:34:46 GMT
Organization: NOYB
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Sun, 15 Oct 2023 12:34 UTC

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> Ray Banana <rayban@raybanana.net> wrote:
>
> > * VanguardLH wrote:
> >> Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
> >>> The client shouldn't have to retrieve articles to mark them as read. The
> >>> standard representation on the client that goes all the way back to the
> >>> very early days of Usenet is called a "newsrc". It holds a list of groups
> >>> (often both the unsubscribed and the subscribed groups so that read
> >>> articles are tracked properly if someone later subscribes to the group)
> >>> and a list of read articles by number in each group. In text form, it
> >>> looks something like this:
> >>>
> >>> rec.arts.sf.misc! 1-14774,14786,14789
> >>
> >> Does Thunderbird currently store the article numbers of messages in its
> >> MSF database files?
> >
> > Not in the MSF files, but in the *.rc files.
> >
> >> I don't recall Tbird uses .rc files
> >
> > From my news.eternal-september.org.rc file:
> > --------------------------------------------
> > eternal-september.config: 1-958
> > eternal-september.grouprequests: 1-690
> > eternal-september.info: 1-64
> > eternal-september.moderated: 1-27,29
> > eternal-september.newusers: 1-1366
> > eternal-september.nocems: 1-27
> > eternal-september.talk: 1-1515
> > eternal-september.test: 1-10382,10397,10502,10503,10544,10546-10548
> > eternal-september.where.are.all.the.newsgroups: 1-2
> > control.checkgroups: 1-1649
> > control.newgroup: 1-875
> > control.rmgroup: 1-865
> > alt.de.test: 1-6609
> > uk.d-i-y: 1-1261447
> > eternal-september.support: 1-15165,15204-15209,15434,15438,15448-15450
> >
> > This is what Russ was talking about and I can confirm that marking
> > a crossposted article as read in one group (or simply opening it)
> > also marks the article as read in all groups it was crossposted to.
> > It has been like that for more than 15 years, IIRC.
>
> If all that were doable in other e-mail clients, seems inane that Tbird
> hasn't accomplied the same feat for a 22-year old bug ticket. Comes
> back to me thinking Tbird was first designed to be an e-mail client, and
> newsgroups got tacked on.

What Ray is saying, is that Thunderbird *does* already mark
crossposted articles as read. I.e. Thunderbird does use a 'newsrc' style
file, as does any other newreader on the planet. The file just isn't
named '[.]newsrc', but <server_name>.rc. So while there may be some old
bug report, it's doubtful that Thunderbird is generally not marking
crossposted articles as read.

So basically the questions are: 1) under which circumstances does
Thunderbird - allegedly - not do what it should do or/and 2) does - as
the OP (candycanearter07) implies - Betterbird do something different
than Thunderbird?

Like you (and Ray), I don't use Thunderbird as my regular newsreader,
so it would be nice if some people who *do* use Thunderbird on a regular
basis, can confirm if this alleged 'bug' - Thunderbird does (sometimes)
not mark crossposted articles as read - exists at all or that it's just
and urban legend, FUD, etc..

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ugh6ae$cvr5$3@dont-email.me>

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From: no...@thanks.net (candycanearter07)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 12:08:30 -0500
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 by: candycanearter07 - Sun, 15 Oct 2023 17:08 UTC

On 10/15/23 07:34, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Like you (and Ray), I don't use Thunderbird as my regular newsreader,
> so it would be nice if some people who *do* use Thunderbird on a regular
> basis, can confirm if this alleged 'bug' - Thunderbird does (sometimes)
> not mark crossposted articles as read - exists at all or that it's just
> and urban legend, FUD, etc..

It usually doesn't work, but lately I haven't noticed it.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ughha2.nhc.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

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From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: 15 Oct 2023 18:16:14 GMT
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:16 UTC

In news.software.nntp candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:
> On 10/15/23 07:34, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Like you (and Ray), I don't use Thunderbird as my regular newsreader,
> > so it would be nice if some people who *do* use Thunderbird on a regular
> > basis, can confirm if this alleged 'bug' - Thunderbird does (sometimes)
> > not mark crossposted articles as read - exists at all or that it's just
> > and urban legend, FUD, etc..
>
> It usually doesn't work, but lately I haven't noticed it.

Please stop snipping too much context!

With your response you imply that you experienced this problem in
Thunderbird, but in reality you probably experienced it in Betterbird.

So the questions stands: What do *Thunderbird* users experience?

>

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ughfd8$aigv$1@news.trigofacile.com>

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 21:43:36 +0200
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Sun, 15 Oct 2023 19:43 UTC

Hi Frank,

> So the questions stands: What do *Thunderbird* users experience?

As a user of Thunderbird, and reading both news.software.readers and
news.software.nntp, I confirm that when I read (and mark as so) an
article in this thread either in news.software.readers or
news.software.nntp first, it still shows up unread in the other newsgroup.
I'm using the latest version of Thunderbird (115.3.2), and this bug was
present in previous versions too.

My .rc file is named "newsrc-servername" (newsrc-news.trigofacile.com)
and seems normal, but not updated when a crossposted article is read in
one newsgroup.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« The best preparation for tomorrow is to do today's work superbly
well. » (William Osler)

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<6exiez3u5bjs$.dlg@v.nguard.lh>

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 20:46:09 -0500
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 by: VanguardLH - Mon, 16 Oct 2023 01:46 UTC

Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:

> As a user of Thunderbird, and reading both news.software.readers and
> news.software.nntp, I confirm that when I read (and mark as so) an
> article in this thread either in news.software.readers or
> news.software.nntp first, it still shows up unread in the other newsgroup.
> I'm using the latest version of Thunderbird (115.3.2), and this bug was
> present in previous versions too.
>
> My .rc file is named "newsrc-servername" (newsrc-news.trigofacile.com)
> and seems normal, but not updated when a crossposted article is read in
> one newsgroup.

That's why I mentioned the 22-year old article trying to figure out how
to sync read-flag status across multiple newsgroups. While old, looks
like the bug petered out only a year ago. To me, as a non-user, and
from Tbird user reports, read-status is not reflected across the
newsgroups to which the article was cross-posted.

From those I assume are more intimate with Tbird, it previously used the
Mork format (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mork_%28file_format%29) for
its message store. The read state is stored in the "flags" column. But
that doesn't mean the read-state migrates of MSF files for other
folders. Then they switched to SQlite; however, a database for one
folder will not automatically update fields in records in another
folder's database file.

The bug ticket proposed adding flags to the SQLite databases, but still
there would have to be synchonization between the separate folder
databases to update the flag states. The user could click on a folder,
but the sync hasn't yet completed the length of which would depend on
how many folders existed for all the subscribed newsgroups. The user
could visit a folder, the same message was not marked read, and they
sync may happen while viewing that folder, but the folder tree would
need to get refreshed which could produce flicker. It looked like they
were looking at sync between folder databases, but noted the change to
add fields for the flags would require replacing the old MSF files.

I don't how Tbird utilizes .rc files. Perhaps only some info is
extracted from there, like just the newsgroups, and not the article
numbers. Yeah, seems dumb to omit the article numbers which would tell
you which ones to look at in which newsgroups.

Is the Xref header really present all the time? From my reading, it is
added to an article by the server to which the client connects; i.e.,
the endpoint host in PATH adds the Xref header when the client retrieves
an article. Okay, I understand that, because article numbers are
independent on different NNTP servers (no sync on article numbers
between servers). The endpoint server to which the client know what are
its article numbers. Are users not happy with cross-post flagging
because the same post shows up in different folders (newsgroups), but
those newsgroups are polled from different servers? The article numbers
in Xref would be worthless for copies of the same post on different
servers. Could explain why the read-flag sometimes works across
newsgroups (retrieved from the same server) and sometimes not (retrieved
from different servers).

From RFC 2980, section 2.1.7, the 'list overview.fmt' shows the overview
headers that get sent by the server. Both ES, and my server
(individual.net) show "Xref:full". Do any NNTP servers not add this
overview header to a retrieved article? The same RFC says "Many
newsreaders work better if Xref: is one of the optional fields." I
never thought of it as an optional header.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5536.html#page-24 describes the syntax
of the Xref header, but that section 3.2.14 is under section 3.2 which
is titled "Optional Header Fields". Maybe the Xref header has become
ubiqitous in Usenet, but it is an optional header. What happens when a
client that relies on Xref (and .rc files) hits an endpoint server that
doesn't add Xref when the client retrieves an article? Maybe that's why
the Tbird devs didn't want to rely on an optional header.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<87wmvnqpb5.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 19:22:22 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
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 by: Russ Allbery - Mon, 16 Oct 2023 02:22 UTC

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> writes:

> From RFC 2980, section 2.1.7, the 'list overview.fmt' shows the overview
> headers that get sent by the server. Both ES, and my server
> (individual.net) show "Xref:full". Do any NNTP servers not add this
> overview header to a retrieved article? The same RFC says "Many
> newsreaders work better if Xref: is one of the optional fields." I
> never thought of it as an optional header.

Although it's technically optional, I'm fairly doubtful that any widely
used news server doesn't provide Xref headers and Xref in overview.

> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5536.html#page-24 describes the syntax
> of the Xref header, but that section 3.2.14 is under section 3.2 which
> is titled "Optional Header Fields". Maybe the Xref header has become
> ubiqitous in Usenet, but it is an optional header. What happens when a
> client that relies on Xref (and .rc files) hits an endpoint server that
> doesn't add Xref when the client retrieves an article?

I think a fairly obvious thing to do would be to fall back on not updating
the read message indicator in crossposted groups if there's no Xref
header.

> Maybe that's why the Tbird devs didn't want to rely on an optional
> header.

If indeed Thunderbird doesn't mark crossposted messages as read in all
groups (it sounds from the recent messages like it doesn't, but I don't
use it so I don't know), another possibility is that this was an
intentional design choice. Thunderbird is primarily a mail reader, and in
the mail world, it's normal *not* to mark messages cross-posted to
multiple mailing lists as read in other mailing lists to which they're
sent. This is for somewhat obvious technical reasons (usually you receive
separate copies of the message for each list, and mail has no Xref
header), but it's also something mail users are used to.

It's possible that the original Thunderbird developers decided keeping the
typical mail behavior made more sense given their expected user base, or
at least was a good argument to not bother to implement crosspost
tracking.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ugim58$1sgi$1@cabale.usenet-fr.net>

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From: om+n...@miakinen.net (Olivier Miakinen)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 08:44:56 +0200
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 by: Olivier Miakinen - Mon, 16 Oct 2023 06:44 UTC

Bonjour Julien,

Le 15/10/2023 21:43, Julien ÉLIE a écrit :
>
> As a user of Thunderbird, and reading both news.software.readers and
> news.software.nntp, I confirm that when I read (and mark as so) an
> article in this thread either in news.software.readers or
> news.software.nntp first, it still shows up unread in the other newsgroup.

Thank you for the info about the latest version.

> I'm using the latest version of Thunderbird (115.3.2), and this bug was
> present in previous versions too.

This bug was already present in Netscape Communicator a.k.a. Netscape 4, then
in all flavors of Mozilla, and still in SeaMonkey.

About Thunderbird which is the only one I never used for newsgroups, because
it is still present now I suppose that it has always been present since the
split between various Mozilla products.

--
Olivier Miakinen

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

<ugiml5$1sit$1@cabale.usenet-fr.net>

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From: om+n...@miakinen.net (Olivier Miakinen)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 08:53:25 +0200
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 by: Olivier Miakinen - Mon, 16 Oct 2023 06:53 UTC

Hi Russ,

Le 16/10/2023 04:22, Russ Allbery a écrit :
>
> If indeed Thunderbird doesn't mark crossposted messages as read in all
> groups (it sounds from the recent messages like it doesn't, but I don't
> use it so I don't know), another possibility is that this was an
> intentional design choice. Thunderbird is primarily a mail reader, [...]

Though you may be right about the intentional design choice, then I suppose
it would have been made not in Thunderbird but in Netscape Messenger 4.x :
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape_Mail_%26_Newsgroups>.

--
Olivier Miakinen

Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?

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From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: betterbird: reading crossposts once?
Date: 16 Oct 2023 11:27:16 GMT
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Mon, 16 Oct 2023 11:27 UTC

Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:
> Hi Frank,
>
> > So the questions stands: What do *Thunderbird* users experience?
>
> As a user of Thunderbird, and reading both news.software.readers and
> news.software.nntp, I confirm that when I read (and mark as so) an
> article in this thread either in news.software.readers or
> news.software.nntp first, it still shows up unread in the other newsgroup.
> I'm using the latest version of Thunderbird (115.3.2), and this bug was
> present in previous versions too.
>
> My .rc file is named "newsrc-servername" (newsrc-news.trigofacile.com)
> and seems normal, but not updated when a crossposted article is read in
> one newsgroup.

Hi Julien,

From your response and other recent responses, it indeed seems that
this is a (very, very long standing) bug and - as Russ indicates -
perhaps even an ill-conceived 'design choice' (Jamie (Zawinski) was
known to have ... ahum ... 'special' ideas about how NetNews should
work :-().

But to be sure:

In the above mentioned context, are you reading both groups from the
same server? (Or better yet, perhaps you have configured only one server
in Thunderbird?)

I assume you read both groups from the same server, because you only
mention one .rc file and one servername, but need to be sure.

The reason for my question is obvious: Thunderbird should use article
numbers to mark articles are read in both groups, but (as you are of
course all too aware of), article numbers are server specific, so
marking crossposted articles are read across multiple servers is
(nearly) impossible.

Pages:123
server_pubkey.txt

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