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devel / comp.arch.embedded / Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

SubjectAuthor
* UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
+* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
| `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
|  +- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|  `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
+* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
| `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|  +- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
|   +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Andrew Smallshaw
|   |+* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   ||`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|   || `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Tauno Voipio
|   | +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Ulf Samuelsson
|   | |`- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Tauno Voipio
|   | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |  +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Tauno Voipio
|   |  |+* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Ulf Samuelsson
|   |  ||`- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Tauno Voipio
|   |  |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |  | `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|   |   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |    `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|   |     `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|    `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|     `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|      `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
 `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
   |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
   | |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | | +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Dimiter_Popoff
   | | |`- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   | |  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | |   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
   | |    `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
   |  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |    +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
   |    |`- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Dimiter_Popoff
   |    `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
   |     |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     | +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |     | |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     | | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |     | |  `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
   |     |  `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |      `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |       `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |        `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |         +- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
   |         `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
    `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz

Pages:123
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<u2gg2e$2ejus$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=1537&group=comp.arch.embedded#1537

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 15:01:02 +0200
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 by: David Brown - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 13:01 UTC

On 27/04/2023 18:02, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:28:29 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 27/04/2023 02:10, Rick C ha scritto:

>>> I don't see where you have a choice, unless you want to add a
>>> crystal to the ATtiny. Can the SAM chip send a clock? You can use
>>> an SPI port instead of a UART, or just send a clock to use for
>>> the bit rate clock in the UART?
>> No, this isn't an option.
>
> You can't add a crystal? Then the two workable choices would appear
> to be calibration of each unit over temperature, or a real time
> calibration from the data rate of the incoming data. I can't think
> of any other solutions. Adding the crystal seems the simple route.
>

Perhaps he already has the boards produced - adding a crystal is then a
rather difficult task! Even if the design is not completed, the Tiny is
a very small, cheap and low power family. Adding a crystal makes the
design bigger, more expensive and uses more power - assuming there are
suitable pins free for connecting a crystal. Now, a small, cheap
crystal might be $0.50 and just a few square millimetres, but so is a
small AVR Tiny. I don't know why the OP is using a a Tiny, but if it is
for good technical or economic reasons, adding a crystal would work
against it.

Trial-and-error, as I suggested earlier, is another workable choice.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=1540&group=comp.arch.embedded#1540

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From: tauno.vo...@notused.fi.invalid (Tauno Voipio)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 17:26:35 +0300
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 by: Tauno Voipio - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 14:26 UTC

On 28.4.2023 12.10, Ulf Samuelsson wrote:
> Den 2023-04-28 kl. 10:43, skrev Tauno Voipio:
>> On 28.4.2023 10.21, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 3:00:45 AM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>>>> On 28.4.2023 3.45, Rick C wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 1:19:01 PM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>>>>>> On 27.4.2023 16.28, Andrew Smallshaw wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-04-27, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Il 27/04/2023 02:10, Rick C ha scritto:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't see where you have a choice, unless you want to add a
>>>>>>>>> crystal to the ATtiny. Can the SAM chip send a clock? You can
>>>>>>>>> use an SPI port instead of a UART, or just send a clock to use
>>>>>>>>> for the bit rate clock in the UART?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, this isn't an option.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other option would be to adopt a Manchester-encoded (self
>>>>>>> clocking) signal. Wouldn't be true RS485 but would pass through
>>>>>>> transceivers and cabling at sensible baud rates. Manchester coding
>>>>>>> is fine provided the clocks are within 2:1 of each other. You will
>>>>>>> need to bit-bang the interface though, the UART won't handle it.
>>>>>> I doubt that the ATTiny can handle Manchester coding at the requested
>>>>>> bit rate, and it may be difficult for the SAM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In 2016, I made a processor unit using AT91SAM4E for IEC H1
>>>>>> Manchester
>>>>>> coded bus at 31.25 kbit/s. The trick was to innovatively use the
>>>>>> timer
>>>>>> counter units of the chip. A timer used to measure the times between
>>>>>> pulse edges could be used to receive and decode the incoming data,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> a timer running at half of the bit rate (15.625 kbit/s) could be used
>>>>>> to send the data. The receiver needed to respond to interrupts at the
>>>>>> incoming edge rate, and the transmitter needed to respond at the
>>>>>> outgoing bit rate.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's if the entire job is handled in software, perhaps. The USART
>>>>> can be used to send the bits as characters at the transmitter. A
>>>>> USART can be used to handle the reception with software seeking
>>>>> edges. I don't think that would be a huge burden at 38.4 kbps. But
>>>>> then, I'm more used to FPGA work.
>>>> Had to bit-bang. The USART cannot create or detect IEC H1 standard
>>>> address marker octets.
>>>
>>> I did a Google search and this didn't return anything useful.  So I
>>> don't know for certain what an IEC H1 standard address marker octet
>>> is, but if I'm specifying the waveform, rather than relying on the
>>> hardware to do the Manchester encoding, I can't see a reason why I
>>> could not transmit any given waveform.  Can you point me to something
>>> that describes these marker octets?
>>
>> The H1 bus is an industrial fieldbus and technical information about
>> it has been notoriously difficult to access.
>>
>> The Manchester coding in the H1 bus is sent as current variations,
>> which are converted into voltage variations for receiving.
>>
>> I'll show the more positive voltage with a plus sign and the less
>> positive voltage with a minus sign.
>>
>> A state pair takes one bit time (32 us) with the change at the middle.
>>
>> A data bit of '1' is sent as +-
>> A data bit of '0' is sent as -+
>>
>> There are two intentional miscodings for delimiters:
>>
>> A coding N+ is sent as ++
>> A coding N- is sent as --
>>
>> A frame starts with a preamble of alternating 0's and 1's:
>>
>> 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0
>>
>> After preamble a start delimiter is sent:
>>
>> 1 N+ N- 1 0 N- N+ 0
>>
>> The packet content follows, with most significant bit first.
>>
>> After last data octet an end delimiter is sent:
>>
>> 1 N+ N- N+ N- 1 0 1
>>
>> After the packet the transmitter is switched off, so the line
>> will stay halfway between the + and - states.
>>
>> The processor chip Manchester coders could not be twisted to
>> handle the start end end delimiters correctly.
>>
>
> If the bus speed is known, this packet seems overkill.
> It can be used to detect the BAUD rate.
>
> The Atmel USART is designed to use a 9-bit mode for packet data, with
> the 9th bit set for addresses.
>
> /Ulf.
>
>

The packet structure and coding is set in the standard. An USART cannot
create the bit patterns, even with fictive data, as there are fixed
start and stop bit patterns.

--

-TV

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 23:41 UTC

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:51:33 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> On 28/04/2023 02:45, Rick C wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 1:19:01 PM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>
> >> In 2016, I made a processor unit using AT91SAM4E for IEC H1
> >> Manchester coded bus at 31.25 kbit/s. The trick was to innovatively
> >> use the timer counter units of the chip. A timer used to measure
> >> the times between pulse edges could be used to receive and decode
> >> the incoming data, and a timer running at half of the bit rate
> >> (15.625 kbit/s) could be used to send the data. The receiver needed
> >> to respond to interrupts at the incoming edge rate, and the
> >> transmitter needed to respond at the outgoing bit rate.
> >
> > That's if the entire job is handled in software, perhaps. The USART
> > can be used to send the bits as characters at the transmitter. A
> > USART can be used to handle the reception with software seeking
> > edges. I don't think that would be a huge burden at 38.4 kbps. But
> > then, I'm more used to FPGA work.
> >
> You certainly /can/ do this kind of thing in software on a Tiny.
> However, it might be a challenge depending on other factors. If the
> device already has high-precision timing requirements for another task,
> doing two of them can get complicated. If you need to deal with a lot
> of noise on the lines, that too is messy.

I don't think you understand the issues. If there is a lot of noise, the project is dead in the water regardless. Fix your noise problems.

This does not impose "high-precision timing requirements" on the CPU. The only requirements are to handle the data without dropping. It's NOT bit banging, so there is lots of time to handle the data.

If the CPU is overloaded, then you picked the wrong CPU. Get a faster one.

Why are you bringing in all this silliness? It's almost as if you've never done design work.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 28 Apr 2023 23:44 UTC

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 9:01:09 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> On 27/04/2023 18:02, Rick C wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:28:29 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> >> Il 27/04/2023 02:10, Rick C ha scritto:
>
> >>> I don't see where you have a choice, unless you want to add a
> >>> crystal to the ATtiny. Can the SAM chip send a clock? You can use
> >>> an SPI port instead of a UART, or just send a clock to use for
> >>> the bit rate clock in the UART?
> >> No, this isn't an option.
> >
> > You can't add a crystal? Then the two workable choices would appear
> > to be calibration of each unit over temperature, or a real time
> > calibration from the data rate of the incoming data. I can't think
> > of any other solutions. Adding the crystal seems the simple route.
> >
> Perhaps he already has the boards produced - adding a crystal is then a
> rather difficult task! Even if the design is not completed, the Tiny is
> a very small, cheap and low power family. Adding a crystal makes the
> design bigger, more expensive and uses more power - assuming there are
> suitable pins free for connecting a crystal. Now, a small, cheap
> crystal might be $0.50 and just a few square millimetres, but so is a
> small AVR Tiny. I don't know why the OP is using a a Tiny, but if it is
> for good technical or economic reasons, adding a crystal would work
> against it.
>
> Trial-and-error, as I suggested earlier, is another workable choice.

Yes, trial and error. I believe that's the design process recommended by NASA.

WTF are you talking about? If he's designed the board without considering the requirements, that's a failure of the first order. If someone imposed new requirements on the design, that's a perfect justification to respin the board.

Once again, not rocket science.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2023 17:59:53 +0200
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 by: David Brown - Sat, 29 Apr 2023 15:59 UTC

On 29/04/2023 01:44, Rick C wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 9:01:09 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>> On 27/04/2023 18:02, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:28:29 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>>> Il 27/04/2023 02:10, Rick C ha scritto:
>>
>>>>> I don't see where you have a choice, unless you want to add a
>>>>> crystal to the ATtiny. Can the SAM chip send a clock? You can use
>>>>> an SPI port instead of a UART, or just send a clock to use for
>>>>> the bit rate clock in the UART?
>>>> No, this isn't an option.
>>>
>>> You can't add a crystal? Then the two workable choices would appear
>>> to be calibration of each unit over temperature, or a real time
>>> calibration from the data rate of the incoming data. I can't think
>>> of any other solutions. Adding the crystal seems the simple route.
>>>
>> Perhaps he already has the boards produced - adding a crystal is then a
>> rather difficult task! Even if the design is not completed, the Tiny is
>> a very small, cheap and low power family. Adding a crystal makes the
>> design bigger, more expensive and uses more power - assuming there are
>> suitable pins free for connecting a crystal. Now, a small, cheap
>> crystal might be $0.50 and just a few square millimetres, but so is a
>> small AVR Tiny. I don't know why the OP is using a a Tiny, but if it is
>> for good technical or economic reasons, adding a crystal would work
>> against it.
>>
>> Trial-and-error, as I suggested earlier, is another workable choice.
>
> Yes, trial and error. I believe that's the design process recommended by NASA.
>

Feel free to try /reading/ posts before making comments about them that
show you up your ignorance.

> WTF are you talking about? If he's designed the board without considering the requirements, that's a failure of the first order. If someone imposed new requirements on the design, that's a perfect justification to respin the board.
>
> Once again, not rocket science.
>

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2023 18:01:46 +0200
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 by: David Brown - Sat, 29 Apr 2023 16:01 UTC

On 29/04/2023 01:41, Rick C wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:51:33 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>> On 28/04/2023 02:45, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 1:19:01 PM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> In 2016, I made a processor unit using AT91SAM4E for IEC H1
>>>> Manchester coded bus at 31.25 kbit/s. The trick was to
>>>> innovatively use the timer counter units of the chip. A timer
>>>> used to measure the times between pulse edges could be used to
>>>> receive and decode the incoming data, and a timer running at
>>>> half of the bit rate (15.625 kbit/s) could be used to send the
>>>> data. The receiver needed to respond to interrupts at the
>>>> incoming edge rate, and the transmitter needed to respond at
>>>> the outgoing bit rate.
>>>
>>> That's if the entire job is handled in software, perhaps. The
>>> USART can be used to send the bits as characters at the
>>> transmitter. A USART can be used to handle the reception with
>>> software seeking edges. I don't think that would be a huge burden
>>> at 38.4 kbps. But then, I'm more used to FPGA work.
>>>
>> You certainly /can/ do this kind of thing in software on a Tiny.
>> However, it might be a challenge depending on other factors. If
>> the device already has high-precision timing requirements for
>> another task, doing two of them can get complicated. If you need to
>> deal with a lot of noise on the lines, that too is messy.
>
>
> I don't think you understand the issues. If there is a lot of noise,
> the project is dead in the water regardless. Fix your noise
> problems.
>
> This does not impose "high-precision timing requirements" on the CPU.
> The only requirements are to handle the data without dropping. It's
> NOT bit banging, so there is lots of time to handle the data.
>
> If the CPU is overloaded, then you picked the wrong CPU. Get a
> faster one.
>
> Why are you bringing in all this silliness? It's almost as if you've
> never done design work.
>

Have you heard the saying that it is better to keep quite and be thought
a fool, rather than opening your mouth and proving it? Do you think the
OP would have started this discussion if "just use a better
microcontroller" were a viable option?

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Sun, 30 Apr 2023 09:37 UTC

On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 12:01:52 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> On 29/04/2023 01:41, Rick C wrote:
> > On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:51:33 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> >> On 28/04/2023 02:45, Rick C wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 1:19:01 PM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio
> >>> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> In 2016, I made a processor unit using AT91SAM4E for IEC H1
> >>>> Manchester coded bus at 31.25 kbit/s. The trick was to
> >>>> innovatively use the timer counter units of the chip. A timer
> >>>> used to measure the times between pulse edges could be used to
> >>>> receive and decode the incoming data, and a timer running at
> >>>> half of the bit rate (15.625 kbit/s) could be used to send the
> >>>> data. The receiver needed to respond to interrupts at the
> >>>> incoming edge rate, and the transmitter needed to respond at
> >>>> the outgoing bit rate.
> >>>
> >>> That's if the entire job is handled in software, perhaps. The
> >>> USART can be used to send the bits as characters at the
> >>> transmitter. A USART can be used to handle the reception with
> >>> software seeking edges. I don't think that would be a huge burden
> >>> at 38.4 kbps. But then, I'm more used to FPGA work.
> >>>
> >> You certainly /can/ do this kind of thing in software on a Tiny.
> >> However, it might be a challenge depending on other factors. If
> >> the device already has high-precision timing requirements for
> >> another task, doing two of them can get complicated. If you need to
> >> deal with a lot of noise on the lines, that too is messy.
> >
> >
> > I don't think you understand the issues. If there is a lot of noise,
> > the project is dead in the water regardless. Fix your noise
> > problems.
> >
> > This does not impose "high-precision timing requirements" on the CPU.
> > The only requirements are to handle the data without dropping. It's
> > NOT bit banging, so there is lots of time to handle the data.
> >
> > If the CPU is overloaded, then you picked the wrong CPU. Get a
> > faster one.
> >
> > Why are you bringing in all this silliness? It's almost as if you've
> > never done design work.
> >
> Have you heard the saying that it is better to keep quite and be thought
> a fool, rather than opening your mouth and proving it? Do you think the
> OP would have started this discussion if "just use a better
> microcontroller" were a viable option?

David, that wasn't a reply to the OP, that was to your silly speculation.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Wed, 3 May 2023 18:16:43 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: pozz - Wed, 3 May 2023 16:16 UTC

Il 26/04/2023 16:56, pozz ha scritto:
> I'd like to use async UART to let these MCUs communicate.
> The protocol will be request-response with the request generated by the
> SAM MCU. The baudrate will be 38400bps.
>
> I'd like to use internal oscillator of ATtiny4313, while the SAM will
> use an external 32.768kHz crystal (that is multiplied by internal PLL to
> reach 48MHz).
>
> I'm not sure if this scenario can work well. My concerns are related to
> the internal oscillator of ATtiny4313 that hasn't a good accuracy over
> temperature and life.
>
> The tiny MCU will be supplied by 3.3V and its temperature will be in the
> range 0-80°C.

I want to thank all the ones that spent some time to reply and give
suggestions. As usual, they are valuable for me.

I'm working on a board that is already in production. It was chosen a
tiny for its low cost.
The possibility to mount and use an external ceramic resonator is
available. Moreover it has been really mounted on around 1k boards that
are working now.

However a few customers reported a problem in a few installations: the
tiny blocks and only a power cycle is able to restart.

After some tests, we found that the problem is radiated noise on the
pins of the tiny oscillator. When power cables are near the board and
some specific load are connected to these cables, the noise generated is
capable to block the tiny.

We tried to replace the ceramic resonator with a quartz crystal without
success. We tried to strenghten the GND connection between the
resonator/quartz and the single GND pin of the SOIC20, without success.

The only change that seems effective in avoiding blocks is using the
internal oscillator.

This is the story.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Wed, 3 May 2023 16:40 UTC

On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> Il 26/04/2023 16:56, pozz ha scritto:
> > I'd like to use async UART to let these MCUs communicate.
> > The protocol will be request-response with the request generated by the
> > SAM MCU. The baudrate will be 38400bps.
> >
> > I'd like to use internal oscillator of ATtiny4313, while the SAM will
> > use an external 32.768kHz crystal (that is multiplied by internal PLL to
> > reach 48MHz).
> >
> > I'm not sure if this scenario can work well. My concerns are related to
> > the internal oscillator of ATtiny4313 that hasn't a good accuracy over
> > temperature and life.
> >
> > The tiny MCU will be supplied by 3.3V and its temperature will be in the
> > range 0-80°C.
> I want to thank all the ones that spent some time to reply and give
> suggestions. As usual, they are valuable for me.
>
> I'm working on a board that is already in production. It was chosen a
> tiny for its low cost.
> The possibility to mount and use an external ceramic resonator is
> available. Moreover it has been really mounted on around 1k boards that
> are working now.
>
> However a few customers reported a problem in a few installations: the
> tiny blocks and only a power cycle is able to restart.
>
> After some tests, we found that the problem is radiated noise on the
> pins of the tiny oscillator. When power cables are near the board and
> some specific load are connected to these cables, the noise generated is
> capable to block the tiny.
>
> We tried to replace the ceramic resonator with a quartz crystal without
> success. We tried to strenghten the GND connection between the
> resonator/quartz and the single GND pin of the SOIC20, without success.
>
> The only change that seems effective in avoiding blocks is using the
> internal oscillator.
>
> This is the story.

So I assume there is a reason why you can't route the power wires away from the ATtiny board?

I think you have been provided with all the possibilities for how to use the internal oscillator. It rather comes down to "pick one". Are any more appealing than the others? If you tell us what you don't like about it, maybe we can help refine the solution?

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Thu, 4 May 2023 10:34:19 +0200
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 by: pozz - Thu, 4 May 2023 08:34 UTC

Il 03/05/2023 18:40, Rick C ha scritto:
> On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 26/04/2023 16:56, pozz ha scritto:
>>> I'd like to use async UART to let these MCUs communicate.
>>> The protocol will be request-response with the request generated by the
>>> SAM MCU. The baudrate will be 38400bps.
>>>
>>> I'd like to use internal oscillator of ATtiny4313, while the SAM will
>>> use an external 32.768kHz crystal (that is multiplied by internal PLL to
>>> reach 48MHz).
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if this scenario can work well. My concerns are related to
>>> the internal oscillator of ATtiny4313 that hasn't a good accuracy over
>>> temperature and life.
>>>
>>> The tiny MCU will be supplied by 3.3V and its temperature will be in the
>>> range 0-80°C.
>> I want to thank all the ones that spent some time to reply and give
>> suggestions. As usual, they are valuable for me.
>>
>> I'm working on a board that is already in production. It was chosen a
>> tiny for its low cost.
>> The possibility to mount and use an external ceramic resonator is
>> available. Moreover it has been really mounted on around 1k boards that
>> are working now.
>>
>> However a few customers reported a problem in a few installations: the
>> tiny blocks and only a power cycle is able to restart.
>>
>> After some tests, we found that the problem is radiated noise on the
>> pins of the tiny oscillator. When power cables are near the board and
>> some specific load are connected to these cables, the noise generated is
>> capable to block the tiny.
>>
>> We tried to replace the ceramic resonator with a quartz crystal without
>> success. We tried to strenghten the GND connection between the
>> resonator/quartz and the single GND pin of the SOIC20, without success.
>>
>> The only change that seems effective in avoiding blocks is using the
>> internal oscillator.
>>
>> This is the story.
>
> So I assume there is a reason why you can't route the power wires away from the ATtiny board?

It depends. In some cases it is possible, in other cases it isn't. The
installer isn't usually competent, so it routes cables as he wants. In
some cases, too near my board. After some weeks or months, he complains
the board has blocked. And he is my customer...

> I think you have been provided with all the possibilities for how to use the internal oscillator. It rather comes down to "pick one". Are any more appealing than the others? If you tell us what you don't like about it, maybe we can help refine the solution?

At the moment we are deciding what could be the best solution.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<u301it$1pqtq$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=1554&group=comp.arch.embedded#1554

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Thu, 4 May 2023 12:31:57 +0200
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 by: David Brown - Thu, 4 May 2023 10:31 UTC

On 04/05/2023 10:34, pozz wrote:
> Il 03/05/2023 18:40, Rick C ha scritto:
>> On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>> Il 26/04/2023 16:56, pozz ha scritto:
>>>> I'd like to use async UART to let these MCUs communicate.
>>>> The protocol will be request-response with the request generated by the
>>>> SAM MCU. The baudrate will be 38400bps.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to use internal oscillator of ATtiny4313, while the SAM will
>>>> use an external 32.768kHz crystal (that is multiplied by internal
>>>> PLL to
>>>> reach 48MHz).
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if this scenario can work well. My concerns are related to
>>>> the internal oscillator of ATtiny4313 that hasn't a good accuracy over
>>>> temperature and life.
>>>>
>>>> The tiny MCU will be supplied by 3.3V and its temperature will be in
>>>> the
>>>> range 0-80°C.
>>> I want to thank all the ones that spent some time to reply and give
>>> suggestions. As usual, they are valuable for me.
>>>
>>> I'm working on a board that is already in production. It was chosen a
>>> tiny for its low cost.
>>> The possibility to mount and use an external ceramic resonator is
>>> available. Moreover it has been really mounted on around 1k boards that
>>> are working now.
>>>
>>> However a few customers reported a problem in a few installations: the
>>> tiny blocks and only a power cycle is able to restart.
>>>
>>> After some tests, we found that the problem is radiated noise on the
>>> pins of the tiny oscillator. When power cables are near the board and
>>> some specific load are connected to these cables, the noise generated is
>>> capable to block the tiny.
>>>
>>> We tried to replace the ceramic resonator with a quartz crystal without
>>> success. We tried to strenghten the GND connection between the
>>> resonator/quartz and the single GND pin of the SOIC20, without success.
>>>
>>> The only change that seems effective in avoiding blocks is using the
>>> internal oscillator.
>>>
>>> This is the story.
>>
>> So I assume there is a reason why you can't route the power wires away
>> from the ATtiny board?
>
> It depends. In some cases it is possible, in other cases it isn't. The
> installer isn't usually competent, so it routes cables as he wants. In
> some cases, too near my board. After some weeks or months, he complains
> the board has blocked. And he is my customer...
>
>
>> I think you have been provided with all the possibilities for how to
>> use the internal oscillator.  It rather comes down to "pick one".  Are
>> any more appealing than the others?  If you tell us what you don't
>> like about it, maybe we can help refine the solution?
>
> At the moment we are deciding what could be the best solution.
>
>

Do you do EMC testing for radiation emission and susceptibility? I
don't know what the rules and regulations are like where you are, but
any finished product (as distinct from prototype or test systems) made
here in Europe should be EMC certified. If radiated noise from "normal"
power cables killed a card, that would be a failure in the certification.

Or is it the surrounding system that is bad? Maybe there is something
truly terrible connected to these power cables?

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<e95e34cc-b602-4644-8ff8-d6abfe61cbc5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Thu, 4 May 2023 13:21 UTC

On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 4:34:25 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> Il 03/05/2023 18:40, Rick C ha scritto:
> > On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> >> Il 26/04/2023 16:56, pozz ha scritto:
> >>> I'd like to use async UART to let these MCUs communicate.
> >>> The protocol will be request-response with the request generated by the
> >>> SAM MCU. The baudrate will be 38400bps.
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to use internal oscillator of ATtiny4313, while the SAM will
> >>> use an external 32.768kHz crystal (that is multiplied by internal PLL to
> >>> reach 48MHz).
> >>>
> >>> I'm not sure if this scenario can work well. My concerns are related to
> >>> the internal oscillator of ATtiny4313 that hasn't a good accuracy over
> >>> temperature and life.
> >>>
> >>> The tiny MCU will be supplied by 3.3V and its temperature will be in the
> >>> range 0-80°C.
> >> I want to thank all the ones that spent some time to reply and give
> >> suggestions. As usual, they are valuable for me.
> >>
> >> I'm working on a board that is already in production. It was chosen a
> >> tiny for its low cost.
> >> The possibility to mount and use an external ceramic resonator is
> >> available. Moreover it has been really mounted on around 1k boards that
> >> are working now.
> >>
> >> However a few customers reported a problem in a few installations: the
> >> tiny blocks and only a power cycle is able to restart.
> >>
> >> After some tests, we found that the problem is radiated noise on the
> >> pins of the tiny oscillator. When power cables are near the board and
> >> some specific load are connected to these cables, the noise generated is
> >> capable to block the tiny.
> >>
> >> We tried to replace the ceramic resonator with a quartz crystal without
> >> success. We tried to strenghten the GND connection between the
> >> resonator/quartz and the single GND pin of the SOIC20, without success..
> >>
> >> The only change that seems effective in avoiding blocks is using the
> >> internal oscillator.
> >>
> >> This is the story.
> >
> > So I assume there is a reason why you can't route the power wires away from the ATtiny board?
> It depends. In some cases it is possible, in other cases it isn't. The
> installer isn't usually competent, so it routes cables as he wants. In
> some cases, too near my board. After some weeks or months, he complains
> the board has blocked. And he is my customer...
> > I think you have been provided with all the possibilities for how to use the internal oscillator. It rather comes down to "pick one". Are any more appealing than the others? If you tell us what you don't like about it, maybe we can help refine the solution?
> At the moment we are deciding what could be the best solution.

Perhaps you can add an enclosure to your board so cables can not be so near? You could make it look like an EMI shield. Heck, a simple piece of plexiglass mounted a half inch from your board should do the job. Also, it is perfectly acceptable to specify that nothing be within some distance of your board. That is not an unusual thing for sensitive circuits.

BTW, do you get the same sort of hang condition if you bring other metal near the oscillators? It may not be an EMI issue at all, but rather a capacitive effect on the oscillator circuit. They often are sensitive to the details of the parasitic values. If you have a resistor in series with the crystal, this might need to be reduced in value, or increased. What circuit does the manufacturer recommend for the oscillator?

Can you provide more detail on the nature of the hang? Does the oscillator stop working? Does the frequency shift? Can you measure any of this? Just saying "without success" isn't much to go on.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=1556&group=comp.arch.embedded#1556

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 10:51:52 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: pozz - Fri, 5 May 2023 08:51 UTC

Il 04/05/2023 12:31, David Brown ha scritto:
> On 04/05/2023 10:34, pozz wrote:
>> Il 03/05/2023 18:40, Rick C ha scritto:
>>> On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>>> Il 26/04/2023 16:56, pozz ha scritto:
>>>>> I'd like to use async UART to let these MCUs communicate.
>>>>> The protocol will be request-response with the request generated by
>>>>> the
>>>>> SAM MCU. The baudrate will be 38400bps.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to use internal oscillator of ATtiny4313, while the SAM will
>>>>> use an external 32.768kHz crystal (that is multiplied by internal
>>>>> PLL to
>>>>> reach 48MHz).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure if this scenario can work well. My concerns are
>>>>> related to
>>>>> the internal oscillator of ATtiny4313 that hasn't a good accuracy over
>>>>> temperature and life.
>>>>>
>>>>> The tiny MCU will be supplied by 3.3V and its temperature will be
>>>>> in the
>>>>> range 0-80°C.
>>>> I want to thank all the ones that spent some time to reply and give
>>>> suggestions. As usual, they are valuable for me.
>>>>
>>>> I'm working on a board that is already in production. It was chosen a
>>>> tiny for its low cost.
>>>> The possibility to mount and use an external ceramic resonator is
>>>> available. Moreover it has been really mounted on around 1k boards that
>>>> are working now.
>>>>
>>>> However a few customers reported a problem in a few installations: the
>>>> tiny blocks and only a power cycle is able to restart.
>>>>
>>>> After some tests, we found that the problem is radiated noise on the
>>>> pins of the tiny oscillator. When power cables are near the board and
>>>> some specific load are connected to these cables, the noise
>>>> generated is
>>>> capable to block the tiny.
>>>>
>>>> We tried to replace the ceramic resonator with a quartz crystal without
>>>> success. We tried to strenghten the GND connection between the
>>>> resonator/quartz and the single GND pin of the SOIC20, without success.
>>>>
>>>> The only change that seems effective in avoiding blocks is using the
>>>> internal oscillator.
>>>>
>>>> This is the story.
>>>
>>> So I assume there is a reason why you can't route the power wires
>>> away from the ATtiny board?
>>
>> It depends. In some cases it is possible, in other cases it isn't. The
>> installer isn't usually competent, so it routes cables as he wants. In
>> some cases, too near my board. After some weeks or months, he
>> complains the board has blocked. And he is my customer...
>>
>>
>>> I think you have been provided with all the possibilities for how to
>>> use the internal oscillator.  It rather comes down to "pick one".
>>> Are any more appealing than the others?  If you tell us what you
>>> don't like about it, maybe we can help refine the solution?
>>
>> At the moment we are deciding what could be the best solution.
>>
>
> Do you do EMC testing for radiation emission and susceptibility?  I
> don't know what the rules and regulations are like where you are, but
> any finished product (as distinct from prototype or test systems) made
> here in Europe should be EMC certified.  If radiated noise from "normal"
> power cables killed a card, that would be a failure in the certification.

Yes, of course. This problem happens only on the field in a few
installations where cables are routed near my product, that is small and
in a plastic enclosure.

> Or is it the surrounding system that is bad?  Maybe there is something
> truly terrible connected to these power cables?

The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
(230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<u32gn1$2963m$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=1557&group=comp.arch.embedded#1557

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 11:02:25 +0200
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 by: pozz - Fri, 5 May 2023 09:02 UTC

Il 04/05/2023 15:21, Rick C ha scritto:
> On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 4:34:25 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 03/05/2023 18:40, Rick C ha scritto:
>>> On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>>> Il 26/04/2023 16:56, pozz ha scritto:
>>>>> I'd like to use async UART to let these MCUs communicate.
>>>>> The protocol will be request-response with the request generated by the
>>>>> SAM MCU. The baudrate will be 38400bps.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to use internal oscillator of ATtiny4313, while the SAM will
>>>>> use an external 32.768kHz crystal (that is multiplied by internal PLL to
>>>>> reach 48MHz).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure if this scenario can work well. My concerns are related to
>>>>> the internal oscillator of ATtiny4313 that hasn't a good accuracy over
>>>>> temperature and life.
>>>>>
>>>>> The tiny MCU will be supplied by 3.3V and its temperature will be in the
>>>>> range 0-80°C.
>>>> I want to thank all the ones that spent some time to reply and give
>>>> suggestions. As usual, they are valuable for me.
>>>>
>>>> I'm working on a board that is already in production. It was chosen a
>>>> tiny for its low cost.
>>>> The possibility to mount and use an external ceramic resonator is
>>>> available. Moreover it has been really mounted on around 1k boards that
>>>> are working now.
>>>>
>>>> However a few customers reported a problem in a few installations: the
>>>> tiny blocks and only a power cycle is able to restart.
>>>>
>>>> After some tests, we found that the problem is radiated noise on the
>>>> pins of the tiny oscillator. When power cables are near the board and
>>>> some specific load are connected to these cables, the noise generated is
>>>> capable to block the tiny.
>>>>
>>>> We tried to replace the ceramic resonator with a quartz crystal without
>>>> success. We tried to strenghten the GND connection between the
>>>> resonator/quartz and the single GND pin of the SOIC20, without success.
>>>>
>>>> The only change that seems effective in avoiding blocks is using the
>>>> internal oscillator.
>>>>
>>>> This is the story.
>>>
>>> So I assume there is a reason why you can't route the power wires away from the ATtiny board?
>> It depends. In some cases it is possible, in other cases it isn't. The
>> installer isn't usually competent, so it routes cables as he wants. In
>> some cases, too near my board. After some weeks or months, he complains
>> the board has blocked. And he is my customer...
>>> I think you have been provided with all the possibilities for how to use the internal oscillator. It rather comes down to "pick one". Are any more appealing than the others? If you tell us what you don't like about it, maybe we can help refine the solution?
>> At the moment we are deciding what could be the best solution.
>
> Perhaps you can add an enclosure to your board so cables can not be so near? You could make it look like an EMI shield. Heck, a simple piece of plexiglass mounted a half inch from your board should do the job. Also, it is perfectly acceptable to specify that nothing be within some distance of your board. That is not an unusual thing for sensitive circuits.

Yes, we are thinking about this solutions too.

> BTW, do you get the same sort of hang condition if you bring other metal near the oscillators? It may not be an EMI issue at all, but rather a capacitive effect on the oscillator circuit. They often are sensitive to the details of the parasitic values. If you have a resistor in series with the crystal, this might need to be reduced in value, or increased.

No problem with capacitive loads.

> What circuit does the manufacturer recommend for the oscillator?

Ceramic resonator has three pins, two that goes to the oscillator pins
of the MCU and one is GND.

> Can you provide more detail on the nature of the hang? Does the oscillator stop working? Does the frequency shift? Can you measure any of this? Just saying "without success" isn't much to go on.

The program seems stopped. Sincerely I didn't measure the oscilator
frequency after the noise, so I don't know if it stopped completely
and/or it is disturbed only during the noise.

Anyway, the total effect seems a stopped program. I noticed that in some
cases, this noise generates strange behaviours: GPIO connected to LED
toggle without a reason and so on.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 12:59:47 +0200
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 by: David Brown - Fri, 5 May 2023 10:59 UTC

On 05/05/2023 10:51, pozz wrote:
> Il 04/05/2023 12:31, David Brown ha scritto:

>>
>> Do you do EMC testing for radiation emission and susceptibility?  I
>> don't know what the rules and regulations are like where you are, but
>> any finished product (as distinct from prototype or test systems) made
>> here in Europe should be EMC certified.  If radiated noise from
>> "normal" power cables killed a card, that would be a failure in the
>> certification.
>
> Yes, of course. This problem happens only on the field in a few
> installations where cables are routed near my product, that is small and
> in a plastic enclosure.
>
>
>> Or is it the surrounding system that is bad?  Maybe there is something
>> truly terrible connected to these power cables?
>
>
> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.

The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with cameras
- is tiny. I really think something must be wrong with the card if it
is susceptible to interference from such cables. Oscillators - crystal
or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor. These
are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built
into the microcontroller. But if these are missing, your oscillator
could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 18:01:41 +0200
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 by: pozz - Fri, 5 May 2023 16:01 UTC

Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto:
[...]
>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>
> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with cameras
> - is tiny.

In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are
digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their
exact name, similar to high power buzzers.

> I really think something must be wrong with the card if it
> is susceptible to interference from such cables.  Oscillators - crystal
> or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor.  These
> are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built
> into the microcontroller.  But if these are missing, your oscillator
> could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: dp...@tgi-sci.com (Dimiter_Popoff)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 19:52:00 +0300
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 by: Dimiter_Popoff - Fri, 5 May 2023 16:52 UTC

On 5/5/2023 19:01, pozz wrote:
> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto:
> [...]
>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>
>> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with
>> cameras - is tiny.
>
> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are
> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their
> exact name, similar to high power buzzers.

If it is some solenoid driven thing with a mechanical switch it may
cause all sorts of interference, depending also on luck - coincidence
between button being released, solenoid switch, sine wave peak etc.
Try to determine whether the interference which gets you is inductive
or capacitive, or if your board is powered off the same lines.
Things like that can be tricky to fix, you need to understand the nature
of what gets you first.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<9210a85c-3323-45ff-b1a6-a6d785aac81dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 5 May 2023 18:37 UTC

On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto:
> [...]
> >> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
> >> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
> >
> > The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with cameras
> > - is tiny.
> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are
> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their
> exact name, similar to high power buzzers.
> > I really think something must be wrong with the card if it
> > is susceptible to interference from such cables. Oscillators - crystal
> > or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor. These
> > are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built
> > into the microcontroller. But if these are missing, your oscillator
> > could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence.

You are talking about exactly like a buzzer, but with a clapper for the bell. A mechanical switch interrupts the current to the coil and very likely arcs on opening and closing, generating significant EMI. Perhaps you could convince them to add a capacitor like they used in automotive spark systems? The spark should be in the right place.

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 20:16:03 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Grant Edwards - Fri, 5 May 2023 20:16 UTC

On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote:

> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.

People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead?

Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used.
I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon.

--
Grant

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Sun, 7 May 2023 23:17:47 +0200
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 by: pozz - Sun, 7 May 2023 21:17 UTC

Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>
> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead?
>
> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used.
> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon.

They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains
voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary
switch out of the door.

[1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
Search for AM5048

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Sun, 7 May 2023 23:20:59 +0200
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 by: pozz - Sun, 7 May 2023 21:20 UTC

Il 05/05/2023 18:52, Dimiter_Popoff ha scritto:
> On 5/5/2023 19:01, pozz wrote:
>> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto:
>> [...]
>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>>
>>> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with
>>> cameras - is tiny.
>>
>> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are
>> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their
>> exact name, similar to high power buzzers.
>
> If it is some solenoid driven thing with a mechanical switch it may
> cause all sorts of interference, depending also on luck - coincidence
> between button being released, solenoid switch, sine wave peak etc.
> Try to determine whether the interference which gets you is inductive
> or capacitive, or if your board is powered off the same lines.
> Things like that can be tricky to fix,

I saw it... very well.

> you need to understand the nature of what gets you first.

I will try. It's much more simple to avoid the problem at all disabling
internal oscillator.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Sun, 7 May 2023 23:21:53 +0200
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 by: pozz - Sun, 7 May 2023 21:21 UTC

Il 05/05/2023 20:37, Rick C ha scritto:
> On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto:
>> [...]
>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>>
>>> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with cameras
>>> - is tiny.
>> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are
>> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their
>> exact name, similar to high power buzzers.
>>> I really think something must be wrong with the card if it
>>> is susceptible to interference from such cables. Oscillators - crystal
>>> or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor. These
>>> are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built
>>> into the microcontroller. But if these are missing, your oscillator
>>> could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence.
>
> You are talking about exactly like a buzzer, but with a clapper for the bell. A mechanical switch interrupts the current to the coil and very likely arcs on opening and closing, generating significant EMI. Perhaps you could convince them to add a capacitor like they used in automotive spark systems? The spark should be in the right place.
>

Ok, thanks for suggestion.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<31a5543f-eb84-4c30-9f9e-d230e55f22dan@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Sun, 7 May 2023 21:27 UTC

On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
> > On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
> >> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
> >
> > People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead?
> >
> > Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used.
> > I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon.
> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains
> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary
> switch out of the door.
>
> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
> Search for AM5048

I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions. A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button.

--

Rick C.

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Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<u3a56g$3q6th$1@dont-email.me>

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 08:34:56 +0200
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 by: David Brown - Mon, 8 May 2023 06:34 UTC

On 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C wrote:
> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains
>>>> power (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>>
>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the
>>> dead?
>>>
>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also
>>> used. I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think
>>> that's uncommon.
>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common
>> mains voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a
>> momentary switch out of the door.
>>
>> [1]
>> https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
>> Search for AM5048
>
> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
> precautions. A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on
> a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses
> much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I
> have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the
> door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the
> button.
>

Guessing from the URL, he could be in Romania, or a country near enough
to use Romanian webshops.

I have no idea about the regulations here in Norway, but I know our
doorbell has a transformer in the fuse cupboard, so it does not have
high voltage mains out to the bell. Driving mains to the doorbell
sounds like a safety nightmare. (Mind you, it's one way to deal with
annoying kids that ring the bell and run away...)

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 08:37:18 +0200
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 by: David Brown - Mon, 8 May 2023 06:37 UTC

On 07/05/2023 23:21, pozz wrote:
> Il 05/05/2023 20:37, Rick C ha scritto:
>> On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto:
>>> [...]
>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>>>
>>>> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with
>>>> cameras
>>>> - is tiny.
>>> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are
>>> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their
>>> exact name, similar to high power buzzers.
>>>> I really think something must be wrong with the card if it
>>>> is susceptible to interference from such cables.  Oscillators - crystal
>>>> or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor.
>>>> These
>>>> are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built
>>>> into the microcontroller.  But if these are missing, your oscillator
>>>> could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence.
>>
>> You are talking about exactly like a buzzer, but with a clapper for
>> the bell.  A mechanical switch interrupts the current to the coil and
>> very likely arcs on opening and closing, generating significant EMI.
>> Perhaps you could convince them to add a capacitor like they used in
>> automotive spark systems?  The spark should be in the right place.
>>
>
> Ok, thanks for suggestion.

Another thing to check is exactly where the noise gets into your system.
Maybe it is actually coming in through wires (such as power supply
wires) connected to your box, rather than directly from the bell wire to
the PCB traces. Do you have any connecting wires that might be run
parallel to the bell wire, acting as antenna? If so, try a capacitor on
those lines as a simple EMC filter.

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