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devel / comp.arch.embedded / Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

SubjectAuthor
* UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
+* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
| `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
|  +- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|  `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
+* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
| `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|  +- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
|   +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Andrew Smallshaw
|   |+* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   ||`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|   || `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Tauno Voipio
|   | +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Ulf Samuelsson
|   | |`- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Tauno Voipio
|   | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |  +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Tauno Voipio
|   |  |+* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Ulf Samuelsson
|   |  ||`- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Tauno Voipio
|   |  |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |  | `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|   |   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   |    `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|   |     `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|    `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
|     `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
|      `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
 `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
   |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
   | |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | | +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Dimiter_Popoff
   | | |`- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   | |  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | |   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
   | |    `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
   |  `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |    +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313David Brown
   |    |`- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Dimiter_Popoff
   |    `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
   |     |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     | +* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |     | |`* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     | | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |     | |  `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     | `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
   |     |  `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |     `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |      `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |       `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   |        `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz
   |         +- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Grant Edwards
   |         `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
   `* Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313Rick C
    `- Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313pozz

Pages:123
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<u3a831$3q8st$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=1569&group=comp.arch.embedded#1569

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 09:24:17 +0200
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 by: pozz - Mon, 8 May 2023 07:24 UTC

Il 08/05/2023 08:37, David Brown ha scritto:
> On 07/05/2023 23:21, pozz wrote:
>> Il 05/05/2023 20:37, Rick C ha scritto:
>>> On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>>> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto:
>>>> [...]
>>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>>>>
>>>>> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with
>>>>> cameras
>>>>> - is tiny.
>>>> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are
>>>> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their
>>>> exact name, similar to high power buzzers.
>>>>> I really think something must be wrong with the card if it
>>>>> is susceptible to interference from such cables.  Oscillators -
>>>>> crystal
>>>>> or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor.
>>>>> These
>>>>> are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built
>>>>> into the microcontroller.  But if these are missing, your oscillator
>>>>> could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence.
>>>
>>> You are talking about exactly like a buzzer, but with a clapper for
>>> the bell.  A mechanical switch interrupts the current to the coil and
>>> very likely arcs on opening and closing, generating significant EMI.
>>> Perhaps you could convince them to add a capacitor like they used in
>>> automotive spark systems?  The spark should be in the right place.
>>>
>>
>> Ok, thanks for suggestion.
>
> Another thing to check is exactly where the noise gets into your system.
>  Maybe it is actually coming in through wires (such as power supply
> wires) connected to your box, rather than directly from the bell wire to
> the PCB traces.  Do you have any connecting wires that might be run
> parallel to the bell wire, acting as antenna?  If so, try a capacitor on
> those lines as a simple EMC filter.

My board is not so sensitive. You need to put the cables near my plastic
enclosure, exactly over the resonator. If you route the cables far from
the resonator/oscillator pins, the problem disappears, even if I tie all
the cables together (ring cables and 12Vdc power supply cables of my board).

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 09:38:10 +0200
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 by: pozz - Mon, 8 May 2023 07:38 UTC

Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>>
>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead?
>>>
>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used.
>>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon.
>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains
>> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary
>> switch out of the door.
>>
>> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
>> Search for AM5048
>
> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions.

So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? Here 99% of house
doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you
use directly the mains cables without additional hw.

The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but
momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room.

> A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button.
>

In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near
the door, inside the apartment.

Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are
"inside" the wall ([1] just as an example).

Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton
that activates the buzzer.

[1]
https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=1571&group=comp.arch.embedded#1571

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From: dp...@tgi-sci.com (Dimiter_Popoff)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 13:46:37 +0300
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 by: Dimiter_Popoff - Mon, 8 May 2023 10:46 UTC

On 5/8/2023 9:34, David Brown wrote:
> On 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
>>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains
>>>>> power (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>>>
>>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the
>>>> dead?
>>>>
>>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also
>>>> used. I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think
>>>> that's uncommon.
>>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common
>>> mains voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a
>>> momentary switch out of the door.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
>>> Search for AM5048
>>
>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
>> precautions.  A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on
>> a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring.  A door bell uses
>> much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions.  I
>> have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the
>> door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the
>> button.
>>
>
> Guessing from the URL, he could be in Romania, or a country near enough
> to use Romanian webshops.
>
> I have no idea about the regulations here in Norway, but I know our
> doorbell has a transformer in the fuse cupboard, so it does not have
> high voltage mains out to the bell.  Driving mains to the doorbell
> sounds like a safety nightmare.  (Mind you, it's one way to deal with
> annoying kids that ring the bell and run away...)

Similar here (Bulgaria). When I was a kid starting to try to put
together this or that a "doorbell transformer" was a popular
option to make some sort of power supply. I think they had a few
outputs at the secondary, starting at 6V or something.
But even so if the buzzer has nasty solenoids and switches it
can cause plenty of interference, who knows.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 14:12:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Grant Edwards - Mon, 8 May 2023 14:12 UTC

On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote:
> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
>
>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
>> precautions.
>
> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?

Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of
far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and
avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Mon, 8 May 2023 14:32 UTC

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
> > On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> >> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
> >>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
> >>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
> >>>
> >>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead?
> >>>
> >>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used..
> >>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon..
> >> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains
> >> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary
> >> switch out of the door.
> >>
> >> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
> >> Search for AM5048
> >
> > I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions.
> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?

LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this.

https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ

The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge.

> Here 99% of house
> doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you
> use directly the mains cables without additional hw.

Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling).

> The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but
> momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room.

I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10

The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well.

https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/

The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first.

> > A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button.
> >
> In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near
> the door, inside the apartment.
>
> Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are
> "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example).
>
> Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton
> that activates the buzzer.
>
> [1]
> https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg

The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button.

https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button

These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell.

https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0

Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button.

I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button.

--

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<u3b739$3q8ss$2@dont-email.me>

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 18:13:30 +0200
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 by: pozz - Mon, 8 May 2023 16:13 UTC

Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
>>
>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
>>> precautions.
>>
>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
>
> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of
> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and
> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc.

I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and
simpler not having it at all.

Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for
example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes.
Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used
to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with
push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a
RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements
in a frame like this.

[1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<u3b7su$3qvmt$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 18:27:11 +0200
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 by: pozz - Mon, 8 May 2023 16:27 UTC

Il 08/05/2023 16:32, Rick C ha scritto:
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
>>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
>>>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>>>>
>>>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead?
>>>>>
>>>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used.
>>>>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon.
>>>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains
>>>> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary
>>>> switch out of the door.
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
>>>> Search for AM5048
>>>
>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions.
>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
>
> LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ

The price on this link is 23 euros, I think a 230Vac doorbell costs less.

> The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge.

Here they usually route the doorbell 230Vac cables together with other
cable of electrical system (lightning...) using the same junction boxes.

>> Here 99% of house
>> doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you
>> use directly the mains cables without additional hw.
>
> Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling).

See [1]. That is a 3-modules frame that can be installed in the wall.
It's already compatible with 230Vac push-buttons. With one of this you
can have the push-button for an outdoor lamp, a push-button for the
doorbell and a keytag reader for anti-burglar system (for example).

You don't need an additional substantial mounting dedicated for doorbell
pushbutton.

>> The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but
>> momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room.
>
> I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box.

Yes, of course. The same box used for a switch that turns on a light.
There's no need to add a dedicated box for doorbell.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10
>
> The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well.
>
> https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/
>
> The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first.
>
>
>>> A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button.
>>>
>> In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near
>> the door, inside the apartment.
>>
>> Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are
>> "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example).
>>
>> Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton
>> that activates the buzzer.
>>
>> [1]
>> https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg
>
> The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button
>
> These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell.
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0
>
> Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button.

If you have only a doorbell pushbutton outdoor, yes it could be simpler.
However here usually installs a "normal" in-the-wall 3-modules box, so
you can have multiples commodities: doorbell push-button, button for a
light and so on. This box is already compatible for 230Vac signals.

> I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button.
>

[1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Mon, 8 May 2023 18:39 UTC

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
> > On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
> >>
> >>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
> >>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
> >>> precautions.
> >>
> >> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
> >
> > Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of
> > far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and
> > avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc.
> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and
> simpler not having it at all.

LOL You don't seem to understand. You either have the transformer as a separate entity, or its functionality is incorporated in something more expensive, because it is rated for 240V.

> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for
> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes.

I think you mean "lighting". But you can't lump the doorbell with anything else. At least not in existing construction. It is all irrelevant. Do what you wish. Spend the money on 240V wiring at a dollar a foot and high voltage boxes. That's your choice. But the fact is, the low voltage doorbell is much cheaper to install.

> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used
> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with
> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a
> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements
> in a frame like this.

You put your outside lights on an outside switch? Doesn't happen here, at least not at the front door.

> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png

Your photo looks like an indoor switch. Outdoor switches are typically much more robust and sealed from the elements. Which one is the doorbell switch? Or is all this inside the front door and a visitor opens the door to ring the bell?

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Mon, 8 May 2023 18:52 UTC

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:29:21 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> Il 08/05/2023 16:32, Rick C ha scritto:
> > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> >> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
> >>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> >>>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
> >>>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
> >>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used.
> >>>>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon.
> >>>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains
> >>>> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary
> >>>> switch out of the door.
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
> >>>> Search for AM5048
> >>>
> >>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions.
> >> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
> >
> > LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this.
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ
> The price on this link is 23 euros, I think a 230Vac doorbell costs less.

Yeah, Amazon is often the highest price for various items. The transformer is as little as $8 in local stores.

> > The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge.
> Here they usually route the doorbell 230Vac cables together with other
> cable of electrical system (lightning...) using the same junction boxes.

"Routing" typically needs no boxes. You still need a box for the button and for the bell. I'm sure you are not grasping the simplicity of a low voltage doorbell.

> >> Here 99% of house
> >> doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you
> >> use directly the mains cables without additional hw.
> >
> > Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling).
> See [1]. That is a 3-modules frame that can be installed in the wall.
> It's already compatible with 230Vac push-buttons. With one of this you
> can have the push-button for an outdoor lamp, a push-button for the
> doorbell and a keytag reader for anti-burglar system (for example).

Is it for outdoor use??? The only items I found were the 12V power supply.

> You don't need an additional substantial mounting dedicated for doorbell
> pushbutton.

I have no idea what you are describing. No one I've ever known has high voltage light switches mounted next to the front door with or without a bell button. In fact, it's not allowed to mix low voltage and high voltage in the same box.

> >> The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but
> >> momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room.
> >
> > I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box.
> Yes, of course. The same box used for a switch that turns on a light.
> There's no need to add a dedicated box for doorbell.

You keep saying that, but you have to put in an unsightly and obtrusive high voltage box, next to your front door. If you want to put other high voltage switches in that, fine, but it doesn't change the need for the high voltage box for the doorbell button.

> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10
> >
> > The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well.
> >
> > https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/
> >
> > The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first.
> >
> >
> >>> A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button.
> >>>
> >> In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near
> >> the door, inside the apartment.
> >>
> >> Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are
> >> "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example).
> >>
> >> Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton
> >> that activates the buzzer.
> >>
> >> [1]
> >> https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg
> >
> > The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button.
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button
> >
> > These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell.
> >
> > https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0
> >
> > Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button.
> If you have only a doorbell pushbutton outdoor, yes it could be simpler.
> However here usually installs a "normal" in-the-wall 3-modules box, so
> you can have multiples commodities: doorbell push-button, button for a
> light and so on. This box is already compatible for 230Vac signals.
> > I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button.
> >
> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png

Why do you keep showing pictures of indoor switches? This has nothing to do with the outside doorbell button.

I did find this in your catalog.

bronze bell 12 Va.c. - 5 VA - 80 dB

--

Rick C.

-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<u3bhcv$7go$1@reader2.panix.com>

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 19:09:19 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Grant Edwards - Mon, 8 May 2023 19:09 UTC

On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote:
> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
>> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
>>>
>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
>>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
>>>> precautions.
>>>
>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
>>
>> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of
>> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and
>> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc.
>
> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and
> simpler not having it at all.

It's hard to see how the installed cost could cheaper. Using 16V
allows use of much cheaper wire, you don't need to install junction
boxes or conduit, the routing requirements for mains voltages don't
apply, and you don't need a certified electrician to do the work.

> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for
> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes.

There's a junction box on the outside of the house for light switches?

> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used
> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with
> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a
> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements
> in a frame like this.
>
> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png

Those switches are on the outside of the house and one of them is the
doorbell button?

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Tue, 9 May 2023 16:52:23 +0200
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 by: pozz - Tue, 9 May 2023 14:52 UTC

Il 08/05/2023 20:52, Rick C ha scritto:
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:29:21 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 08/05/2023 16:32, Rick C ha scritto:
>>> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
>>>>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>>>>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
>>>>>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
>>>>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used.
>>>>>>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon.
>>>>>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains
>>>>>> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary
>>>>>> switch out of the door.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
>>>>>> Search for AM5048
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions.
>>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
>>>
>>> LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this.
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ
>> The price on this link is 23 euros, I think a 230Vac doorbell costs less.
>
> Yeah, Amazon is often the highest price for various items. The transformer is as little as $8 in local stores.
>
>
>>> The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge.
>> Here they usually route the doorbell 230Vac cables together with other
>> cable of electrical system (lightning...) using the same junction boxes.
>
> "Routing" typically needs no boxes. You still need a box for the button and for the bell. I'm sure you are not grasping the simplicity of a low voltage doorbell.

I don't want to defend installations that THEY do here where I live. I'm
just describing what usually happens.

In the apartment there are already "in-wall" tubes and junction boxes
for mains distribution and frames for lights switches. In this case, I
think it's worth it to "waste" one module to install a 230Vac buzzer
inside and one module to install a 230Vac pushbutton to activate the
buzzer outside. During installation of mains circuits you already have
230Vac cables and you can use them for doorbell too.

The prices of 230Vac and 12Vac doorbells are similar (see [1] and [2]),
with the plus you can avoid an additional power supply/transformer, even
if it is cheap.

>>>> Here 99% of house
>>>> doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you
>>>> use directly the mains cables without additional hw.
>>>
>>> Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling).
>> See [1]. That is a 3-modules frame that can be installed in the wall.
>> It's already compatible with 230Vac push-buttons. With one of this you
>> can have the push-button for an outdoor lamp, a push-button for the
>> doorbell and a keytag reader for anti-burglar system (for example).
>
> Is it for outdoor use??? The only items I found were the 12V power supply.

Sorry for misunderstanding. It isn't for outdoor use, it is usually
installed "out of the door" of the apartment, but inside a
multi-apartment building.
Of course, in isolated building where the doorbell switch is really
outdoor, you can't use that.

>> You don't need an additional substantial mounting dedicated for doorbell
>> pushbutton.
>
> I have no idea what you are describing. No one I've ever known has high voltage light switches mounted next to the front door with or without a bell button. In fact, it's not allowed to mix low voltage and high voltage in the same box.

When the apartment is one of many in a building (condominium), there's
usually a public light on the common part of the floor (balcony?
landing?) inside the building. And you could want to switch on when you
are outside your apartment. Both the light button and doorbell button
are 230Vac, so no mixing.

>>>> The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but
>>>> momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room.
>>>
>>> I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box.
>> Yes, of course. The same box used for a switch that turns on a light.
>> There's no need to add a dedicated box for doorbell.
>
> You keep saying that, but you have to put in an unsightly and obtrusive high voltage box, next to your front door. If you want to put other high voltage switches in that, fine, but it doesn't change the need for the high voltage box for the doorbell button.

I don't think this[3] is worse than this[4]. Of course, it depends on
personal taste.

>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10
>>>
>>> The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well.
>>>
>>> https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/
>>>
>>> The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button.
>>>>>
>>>> In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near
>>>> the door, inside the apartment.
>>>>
>>>> Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are
>>>> "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example).
>>>>
>>>> Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton
>>>> that activates the buzzer.
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg
>>>
>>> The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button.
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button
>>>
>>> These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell.
>>>
>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0
>>>
>>> Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button.
>> If you have only a doorbell pushbutton outdoor, yes it could be simpler.
>> However here usually installs a "normal" in-the-wall 3-modules box, so
>> you can have multiples commodities: doorbell push-button, button for a
>> light and so on. This box is already compatible for 230Vac signals.
>>> I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button.
>>>
>> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png
>
> Why do you keep showing pictures of indoor switches? This has nothing to do with the outside doorbell button.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Tue, 9 May 2023 17:04:01 +0200
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 by: pozz - Tue, 9 May 2023 15:04 UTC

Il 08/05/2023 20:39, Rick C ha scritto:
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
>>> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
>>>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
>>>>> precautions.
>>>>
>>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
>>>
>>> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of
>>> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and
>>> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc.
>> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and
>> simpler not having it at all.
>
> LOL You don't seem to understand. You either have the transformer as a separate entity, or its functionality is incorporated in something more expensive, because it is rated for 240V.

See [1] and [2]. The prices are the same.

>> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for
>> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes.
>
> I think you mean "lighting".

Yes, sorry.

> But you can't lump the doorbell with anything else. At least not in existing construction. It is all irrelevant. Do what you wish. Spend the money on 240V wiring at a dollar a foot and high voltage boxes. That's your choice. But the fact is, the low voltage doorbell is much cheaper to install.

I don't want to spend any money for any doorbells ;-)
This is what I see, I'm not an expert of mains distribution in buildings
and apartments.

I'm only supposing that in a new house, where you already have 230Vac
tubes and junction boxes and you need one or more light push-buttons out
of the door (not outdoor), you can share everything and possibly share
some money, considering that 230Vac and 12Vac buzzers are similar in price.

>> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used
>> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with
>> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a
>> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements
>> in a frame like this.
>
> You put your outside lights on an outside switch? Doesn't happen here, at least not at the front door.
>
>
>> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png
>
> Your photo looks like an indoor switch. Outdoor switches are typically much more robust and sealed from the elements. Which one is the doorbell switch? Or is all this inside the front door and a visitor opens the door to ring the bell?

I was thinking to a typical situation here, an apartment in a
condominium, a bigger multi-houses building. Your doorbell pushbutton is
inside the building and you often need to switch on a lamp.

[1] https://amzn.eu/d/8iPOXgt
[2] https://amzn.eu/d/b31Lcre

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

<u3dnkf$7v64$3@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
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 by: pozz - Tue, 9 May 2023 15:08 UTC

Il 08/05/2023 21:09, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
>>> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
>>>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
>>>>> precautions.
>>>>
>>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
>>>
>>> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of
>>> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and
>>> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc.
>>
>> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and
>> simpler not having it at all.
>
> It's hard to see how the installed cost could cheaper. Using 16V
> allows use of much cheaper wire, you don't need to install junction
> boxes or conduit, the routing requirements for mains voltages don't
> apply, and you don't need a certified electrician to do the work.

Yes, of course. Anyway, most of the time the doorbell is installed by
the certified electrician during a renovation or during construction of
a new building. In this case, you already have a lot of cables and you
can share already present conduits and junction boxes.

>> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for
>> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes.
>
> There's a junction box on the outside of the house for light switches?

Only the frame for push-buttons. Junction boxes are inside the house. On
the floor of 2-3 apartments, it could be a junction box for common
assets, such as common lights, antennas, elevator and so on.

>> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used
>> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with
>> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a
>> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements
>> in a frame like this.
>>
>> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png
>
> Those switches are on the outside of the house and one of them is the
> doorbell button?

Outside, not outdoor. Yes, one of this is the pushbutton of the doorbell.

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Tue, 9 May 2023 15:10:57 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Grant Edwards - Tue, 9 May 2023 15:10 UTC

On 2023-05-09, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Is it for outdoor use??? The only items I found were the 12V power
>> supply.
>
> Sorry for misunderstanding. It isn't for outdoor use, it is usually
> installed "out of the door" of the apartment, but inside a
> multi-apartment building. Of course, in isolated building where the
> doorbell switch is really outdoor, you can't use that.

Ah, OK. we're talking about doorbells for single-family, detached
houses. There's typically a chime mounted on a wall in a central
location and one or more buttons (two is very common) wired to that
chime.

You're talking about apartment buildings. Here in the US, apartment
buildings don't use the 16V doorbells we've been describing. They
usually have buzzer/intercom/remote-door-lock systems that are
completely different than a "doorbell".

--
Grant

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Tue, 9 May 2023 21:29 UTC

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:53:52 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> Il 08/05/2023 20:52, Rick C ha scritto:
> > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:29:21 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> >> Il 08/05/2023 16:32, Rick C ha scritto:
> >>> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> >>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
> >>>>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> >>>>>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
> >>>>>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power
> >>>>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used.
> >>>>>>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon.
> >>>>>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains
> >>>>>> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary
> >>>>>> switch out of the door.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf
> >>>>>> Search for AM5048
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions.
> >>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
> >>>
> >>> LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ
> >> The price on this link is 23 euros, I think a 230Vac doorbell costs less.
> >
> > Yeah, Amazon is often the highest price for various items. The transformer is as little as $8 in local stores.
> >
> >
> >>> The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge.
> >> Here they usually route the doorbell 230Vac cables together with other
> >> cable of electrical system (lightning...) using the same junction boxes.
> >
> > "Routing" typically needs no boxes. You still need a box for the button and for the bell. I'm sure you are not grasping the simplicity of a low voltage doorbell.
> I don't want to defend installations that THEY do here where I live. I'm
> just describing what usually happens.
>
> In the apartment there are already "in-wall" tubes and junction boxes
> for mains distribution and frames for lights switches. In this case, I
> think it's worth it to "waste" one module to install a 230Vac buzzer
> inside and one module to install a 230Vac pushbutton to activate the
> buzzer outside. During installation of mains circuits you already have
> 230Vac cables and you can use them for doorbell too.

I haven't seen you post anything that would be used outside. Worse, you have not explained why there would be a gang switch box outside where the doorbell button would be. Others have asked the same thing, and as far as I can tell, you ignore them as well.

> The prices of 230Vac and 12Vac doorbells are similar (see [1] and [2]),

You are picking one line item from a single catalog. Price out all the parts required.

> with the plus you can avoid an additional power supply/transformer, even
> if it is cheap.

I don't know what you are talking about. Sorry. You seem to be addressing doorbells with buttons inside your house. We just don't have much of that in the US.

> >>>> Here 99% of house
> >>>> doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you
> >>>> use directly the mains cables without additional hw.
> >>>
> >>> Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling).
> >> See [1]. That is a 3-modules frame that can be installed in the wall.
> >> It's already compatible with 230Vac push-buttons. With one of this you
> >> can have the push-button for an outdoor lamp, a push-button for the
> >> doorbell and a keytag reader for anti-burglar system (for example).
> >
> > Is it for outdoor use??? The only items I found were the 12V power supply.
> Sorry for misunderstanding. It isn't for outdoor use, it is usually
> installed "out of the door" of the apartment, but inside a
> multi-apartment building.
> Of course, in isolated building where the doorbell switch is really
> outdoor, you can't use that.

Yeah, that makes more sense. In the US, older apartments that were made from a single family dwelling, have a number of low voltage buttons on the outside of the main door, or just inside in a foyer. More modern apartments have no doorbells.
You just knock on the doors. Works pretty well. We have these things called, "knockers".

> >> You don't need an additional substantial mounting dedicated for doorbell
> >> pushbutton.
> >
> > I have no idea what you are describing. No one I've ever known has high voltage light switches mounted next to the front door with or without a bell button. In fact, it's not allowed to mix low voltage and high voltage in the same box.
> When the apartment is one of many in a building (condominium), there's
> usually a public light on the common part of the floor (balcony?
> landing?) inside the building. And you could want to switch on when you
> are outside your apartment. Both the light button and doorbell button
> are 230Vac, so no mixing.

Even in such apartments, we just use low voltage doorbells for all the reasons that have been explained to you. Every part of the system is a lower cost than a 240V bell system. It requires no special consideration for the wiring and can be done by the kid next door, rather than under supervision of a licensed electrician. I don't know why you can't understand this simple matter.

> >>>> The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but
> >>>> momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box.
> >> Yes, of course. The same box used for a switch that turns on a light.
> >> There's no need to add a dedicated box for doorbell.
> >
> > You keep saying that, but you have to put in an unsightly and obtrusive high voltage box, next to your front door. If you want to put other high voltage switches in that, fine, but it doesn't change the need for the high voltage box for the doorbell button.
> I don't think this[3] is worse than this[4]. Of course, it depends on
> personal taste.

Sorry, I don't know what 3 and 4 are.

> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10
> >>>
> >>> The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/
> >>>
> >>> The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button.
> >>>>>
> >>>> In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near
> >>>> the door, inside the apartment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are
> >>>> "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example).
> >>>>
> >>>> Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton
> >>>> that activates the buzzer.
> >>>>
> >>>> [1]
> >>>> https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg
> >>>
> >>> The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button
> >>>
> >>> These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0
> >>>
> >>> Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button.
> >> If you have only a doorbell pushbutton outdoor, yes it could be simpler.
> >> However here usually installs a "normal" in-the-wall 3-modules box, so
> >> you can have multiples commodities: doorbell push-button, button for a
> >> light and so on. This box is already compatible for 230Vac signals.
> >>> I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button.
> >>>
> >> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png
> >
> > Why do you keep showing pictures of indoor switches? This has nothing to do with the outside doorbell button.
> See above for the misunderstanding.
> > I did find this in your catalog.
> >
> > bronze bell 12 Va.c. - 5 VA - 80 dB
> Yes, I never said there aren't low voltage buzzers, but they aren't
> frequently used here.


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Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Tue, 9 May 2023 21:32 UTC

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 11:06:29 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> Il 08/05/2023 20:39, Rick C ha scritto:
> > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
> >> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
> >>> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
> >>>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
> >>>>> precautions.
> >>>>
> >>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
> >>>
> >>> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of
> >>> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and
> >>> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc.
> >> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and
> >> simpler not having it at all.
> >
> > LOL You don't seem to understand. You either have the transformer as a separate entity, or its functionality is incorporated in something more expensive, because it is rated for 240V.
> See [1] and [2]. The prices are the same.
> >> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for
> >> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes.
> >
> > I think you mean "lighting".
> Yes, sorry.
> > But you can't lump the doorbell with anything else. At least not in existing construction. It is all irrelevant. Do what you wish. Spend the money on 240V wiring at a dollar a foot and high voltage boxes. That's your choice. But the fact is, the low voltage doorbell is much cheaper to install.
> I don't want to spend any money for any doorbells ;-)
> This is what I see, I'm not an expert of mains distribution in buildings
> and apartments.
>
> I'm only supposing that in a new house, where you already have 230Vac
> tubes and junction boxes and you need one or more light push-buttons out
> of the door (not outdoor), you can share everything and possibly share
> some money, considering that 230Vac and 12Vac buzzers are similar in price.

You literally know nothing of the issues of wiring high voltage vs. low voltage. You keep talking about the buttons in a catalog, without understanding how they are used. I can't spend any more time trying to explain it to you. So, you may hold your ideas dear.

> >> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used
> >> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with
> >> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a
> >> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements
> >> in a frame like this.
> >
> > You put your outside lights on an outside switch? Doesn't happen here, at least not at the front door.
> >
> >
> >> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png
> >
> > Your photo looks like an indoor switch. Outdoor switches are typically much more robust and sealed from the elements. Which one is the doorbell switch? Or is all this inside the front door and a visitor opens the door to ring the bell?
> I was thinking to a typical situation here, an apartment in a
> condominium, a bigger multi-houses building. Your doorbell pushbutton is
> inside the building and you often need to switch on a lamp.
> [1] https://amzn.eu/d/8iPOXgt
> [2] https://amzn.eu/d/b31Lcre

Ok, Enjoy.

--

Rick C.

-+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313

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From: pozzu...@gmail.com (pozz)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313
Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 08:55:57 +0200
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 by: pozz - Wed, 10 May 2023 06:55 UTC

Il 09/05/2023 23:32, Rick C ha scritto:
> On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 11:06:29 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>> Il 08/05/2023 20:39, Rick C ha scritto:
>>> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote:
>>>> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto:
>>>>> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are
>>>>>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety
>>>>>>> precautions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of
>>>>> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and
>>>>> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc.
>>>> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and
>>>> simpler not having it at all.
>>>
>>> LOL You don't seem to understand. You either have the transformer as a separate entity, or its functionality is incorporated in something more expensive, because it is rated for 240V.
>> See [1] and [2]. The prices are the same.
>>>> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for
>>>> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes.
>>>
>>> I think you mean "lighting".
>> Yes, sorry.
>>> But you can't lump the doorbell with anything else. At least not in existing construction. It is all irrelevant. Do what you wish. Spend the money on 240V wiring at a dollar a foot and high voltage boxes. That's your choice. But the fact is, the low voltage doorbell is much cheaper to install.
>> I don't want to spend any money for any doorbells ;-)
>> This is what I see, I'm not an expert of mains distribution in buildings
>> and apartments.
>>
>> I'm only supposing that in a new house, where you already have 230Vac
>> tubes and junction boxes and you need one or more light push-buttons out
>> of the door (not outdoor), you can share everything and possibly share
>> some money, considering that 230Vac and 12Vac buzzers are similar in price.
>
> You literally know nothing of the issues of wiring high voltage vs. low voltage. You keep talking about the buttons in a catalog, without understanding how they are used. I can't spend any more time trying to explain it to you. So, you may hold your ideas dear.

I don't know how we are fighting for this kind of arguments. I don't
want to convince you, I'm not a professinal electrician and for me is
good what you write. Keep on with embedded things.

>>>> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used
>>>> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with
>>>> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a
>>>> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements
>>>> in a frame like this.
>>>
>>> You put your outside lights on an outside switch? Doesn't happen here, at least not at the front door.
>>>
>>>
>>>> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png
>>>
>>> Your photo looks like an indoor switch. Outdoor switches are typically much more robust and sealed from the elements. Which one is the doorbell switch? Or is all this inside the front door and a visitor opens the door to ring the bell?
>> I was thinking to a typical situation here, an apartment in a
>> condominium, a bigger multi-houses building. Your doorbell pushbutton is
>> inside the building and you often need to switch on a lamp.
>> [1] https://amzn.eu/d/8iPOXgt
>> [2] https://amzn.eu/d/b31Lcre
>
> Ok, Enjoy.
>

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