PC's broke. The big one. I was - fortunately - able to salvage the
data (includingly, most importantly, my Usenet archive, but also less
essential stuff like work-files and email ;-) but I'm back to the
older PC for the nonce until I fix my main.

Not sure what's going on with it, though. I rebooted and it got stuck
on a blackscreen. All following reboots either hung, BSOD'd before it
reached the desktop, or dumped me into the 'recovery environment'. My
initial guess was bad RAM, but all the tests show no problem. I've
yanked the HDD, peripherals, even the GPU*.. no change.

I'd suspect the PSU, except the power rails all show stable. I'm not
seeing abnormal temperatures on the CPU. The fans are all doing
they're thing. The PC will run code - it actually boots Linux from a
LiveCD with no problem - but any attempt to run Windows - whether from
the HDD, from a USB stick, or a WinPE DVD - and it hangs. It doesn't
like Windows 11**. It's a different BSOD everytime too (which sounds
like a RAM issue, except the RAM passes all its tests).

I'll try more diagnostics later but I'm running out of ideas. It has
to be either the motherboard, CPU, RAM, or PSU, and unfortunately I
don't have any replacements at hand to swap in for testing. I'm
hesitant to buy a replacement until I have some idea what the problem
is.

Not really the way I wanted this day to go...

* the motherboard has built-in onboard video
** I can relate ;-)

On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> PC's broke. The big one. I was - fortunately - able to salvage the
> data (includingly, most importantly, my Usenet archive, but also less
> essential stuff like work-files and email ;-) but I'm back to the
> older PC for the nonce until I fix my main.
>
> Not sure what's going on with it, though. I rebooted and it got stuck
> on a blackscreen. All following reboots either hung, BSOD'd before it
> reached the desktop, or dumped me into the 'recovery environment'. My
> initial guess was bad RAM, but all the tests show no problem. I've
> yanked the HDD, peripherals, even the GPU*.. no change.
>
> I'd suspect the PSU, except the power rails all show stable. I'm not
> seeing abnormal temperatures on the CPU. The fans are all doing
> they're thing. The PC will run code - it actually boots Linux from a
> LiveCD with no problem - but any attempt to run Windows - whether from
> the HDD, from a USB stick, or a WinPE DVD - and it hangs. It doesn't
> like Windows 11**. It's a different BSOD everytime too (which sounds
> like a RAM issue, except the RAM passes all its tests).
>
> I'll try more diagnostics later but I'm running out of ideas. It has
> to be either the motherboard, CPU, RAM, or PSU, and unfortunately I
> don't have any replacements at hand to swap in for testing. I'm
> hesitant to buy a replacement until I have some idea what the problem
> is.
>
>
> Not really the way I wanted this day to go...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * the motherboard has built-in onboard video
> ** I can relate ;-)
>
Given what you describe sounds like the Win11 install possibly got
corrupted. Have you tried re-formatting the HDD and reinstalling the OS?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> > PC's broke. The big one. I was - fortunately - able to salvage the
> > data (includingly, most importantly, my Usenet archive, but also less
> > essential stuff like work-files and email ;-) but I'm back to the
> > older PC for the nonce until I fix my main.
> >
> > Not sure what's going on with it, though. I rebooted and it got stuck
> > on a blackscreen. All following reboots either hung, BSOD'd before it
> > reached the desktop, or dumped me into the 'recovery environment'. My
> > initial guess was bad RAM, but all the tests show no problem. I've
> > yanked the HDD, peripherals, even the GPU*.. no change.
> >
> > I'd suspect the PSU, except the power rails all show stable. I'm not
> > seeing abnormal temperatures on the CPU. The fans are all doing
> > they're thing. The PC will run code - it actually boots Linux from a
> > LiveCD with no problem - but any attempt to run Windows - whether from
> > the HDD, from a USB stick, or a WinPE DVD - and it hangs. It doesn't
> > like Windows 11**. It's a different BSOD everytime too (which sounds
> > like a RAM issue, except the RAM passes all its tests).
> >
> > I'll try more diagnostics later but I'm running out of ideas. It has
> > to be either the motherboard, CPU, RAM, or PSU, and unfortunately I
> > don't have any replacements at hand to swap in for testing. I'm
> > hesitant to buy a replacement until I have some idea what the problem
> > is.
> >
> >
> > Not really the way I wanted this day to go...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > * the motherboard has built-in onboard video
> > ** I can relate ;-)
> >
> Given what you describe sounds like the Win11 install possibly got
> corrupted. Have you tried re-formatting the HDD and reinstalling the OS?

Try it on another drive with a new OS (Windows, Linux, etc.). You can install or use a live bootable media.
--
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." --Proverbs 3:5-6. "Trust no one" except God!
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On Tue, 05 Mar 2024 18:31:28 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Not really the way I wanted this day to go...

Yeah, I understand that. My computer not working is the equivalent of
my car not starting in the morning. Ugh.

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:37:08 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>> PC's broke.

>Given what you describe sounds like the Win11 install possibly got
>corrupted. Have you tried re-formatting the HDD and reinstalling the OS?

That was my first guess. Windows hosing itself isn't quite as common
as it used to be, but it's still an overly complicated system
(especially given its dependence on the registry).

But given that I've pulled the HDDs and the problem still persists, I
think I can rule that one out.

On 3/6/2024 7:33 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:37:08 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>>> PC's broke.
>
>> Given what you describe sounds like the Win11 install possibly got
>> corrupted. Have you tried re-formatting the HDD and reinstalling the OS?
>
> That was my first guess. Windows hosing itself isn't quite as common
> as it used to be, but it's still an overly complicated system
> (especially given its dependence on the registry).
>
> But given that I've pulled the HDDs and the problem still persists, I
> think I can rule that one out.

I assume you tried pulling the memory out that you put in?

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

Which memory tester did you use? memtest86? memtest86+? Heavy stress tests?

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> PC's broke. The big one. I was - fortunately - able to salvage the
> data (includingly, most importantly, my Usenet archive, but also less
> essential stuff like work-files and email ;-) but I'm back to the
> older PC for the nonce until I fix my main.

> Not sure what's going on with it, though. I rebooted and it got stuck
> on a blackscreen. All following reboots either hung, BSOD'd before it
> reached the desktop, or dumped me into the 'recovery environment'. My
> initial guess was bad RAM, but all the tests show no problem. I've
> yanked the HDD, peripherals, even the GPU*.. no change.

> I'd suspect the PSU, except the power rails all show stable. I'm not
> seeing abnormal temperatures on the CPU. The fans are all doing
> they're thing. The PC will run code - it actually boots Linux from a
> LiveCD with no problem - but any attempt to run Windows - whether from
> the HDD, from a USB stick, or a WinPE DVD - and it hangs. It doesn't
> like Windows 11**. It's a different BSOD everytime too (which sounds
> like a RAM issue, except the RAM passes all its tests).

> I'll try more diagnostics later but I'm running out of ideas. It has
> to be either the motherboard, CPU, RAM, or PSU, and unfortunately I
> don't have any replacements at hand to swap in for testing. I'm
> hesitant to buy a replacement until I have some idea what the problem
> is.

> Not really the way I wanted this day to go...

> * the motherboard has built-in onboard video
> ** I can relate ;-)

--
"When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." --Genesis 3:6. Bad Eve! Tues. got little a slammy thanks to iOS v17.4.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

> I'll try more diagnostics later but I'm running out of ideas. It has
> to be either the motherboard, CPU, RAM, or PSU, and unfortunately I
> don't have any replacements at hand to swap in for testing. I'm
> hesitant to buy a replacement until I have some idea what the problem
> is.

Isn't that the thing? Now that PCs are kinda mature, no one has spare
parts for anything relevant. Last time I had a PC problem, a few years
ago, my "spare parts" were in the form of classic PCI cards! I.e.,
completely useless for a motherboard with only PCI Express slots. Had
some old RAM sitting around too, probably DDR2, also useless for a DDR3
motherboard.

Sorry, no hints as to what to do. Buying cheap used HW for replacements
and/or testing isn't necessarily a good idea either. I tried to upgrade
my old file server to Xeon from a low end Celeron but that Xeon was
badd. Not so bad the system wouldn't boot but otherwise... At least I
didn't lose any data.

OTOH, my cheap ass Haswell refresh motherboard and CPU served me well
for two or three years. And those were shipped without even an
antistatic bag... Well, I've learned since then that those bags have a
shortish shelf life so it's actually fairly unreasonable to ask a random
seller to procure a fresh motherboard sized antistatic bag.

On 07/03/2024 10:15, Anssi Saari wrote:
> Isn't that the thing? Now that PCs are kinda mature, no one has spare
> parts for anything relevant. Last time I had a PC problem, a few years
> ago, my "spare parts" were in the form of classic PCI cards! I.e.,
> completely useless for a motherboard with only PCI Express slots. Had
> some old RAM sitting around too, probably DDR2, also useless for a DDR3
> motherboard.

Welcome to the world of future proof which is anything but. When I do my
big refreshes I just know that it will be MB + RAM + CPU. Also probably
the GPU as that still tends to be that thing that drives when I do an
upgrade. PSU, generally ok. Storage that should be ok, at least for the
moment as I don't see SATA going away anytime soon.

On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 11:06:10 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 3/6/2024 7:33 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:37:08 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>
>>>> PC's broke.
>>
>>> Given what you describe sounds like the Win11 install possibly got
>>> corrupted. Have you tried re-formatting the HDD and reinstalling the OS?
>>
>> That was my first guess. Windows hosing itself isn't quite as common
>> as it used to be, but it's still an overly complicated system
>> (especially given its dependence on the registry).
>>
>> But given that I've pulled the HDDs and the problem still persists, I
>> think I can rule that one out.
>
>I assume you tried pulling the memory out that you put in?

You assume correctly. More precisely, I tested each RAM module
seperately (since I don't have any other compatible DDR5 modules to
test in their place). The problem remained. It is possible that both
modules are faulty but, I think, unlikely.

I'd suspect overclocking issues except, well, I'm not overclocking
(just because I'm terrified of stuff like this happening. I fried a
CPU once in the Pentium days ;-). But a recent report indicated that
Intel 13/14900K are apparently sensitive to overclocking, so maybe
even running at its intended speed is a bit too much for it.

(I'm trying to figure out how to underclock the CPU; the BIOS is not
particularly helpful. It has waaaay too many options all too similarly
named. Oh, for a simple selection of jumpers on the motherboard ;-).

But it's really down to only four compoents: motherboard, CPU, RAM or
PSU. The latter two seemingly are fine (the former based on RAM tests,
the latter based on testing individual rails). That leaves me with two
potentially very expensive replacements. But I won't be doing either
until I can figure out which one...

<grumble>

On 3/7/2024 4:34 AM, JAB wrote:
> On 07/03/2024 10:15, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> Isn't that the thing? Now that PCs are kinda mature, no one has spare
>> parts for anything relevant. Last time I had a PC problem, a few years
>> ago, my "spare parts" were in the form of classic PCI cards! I.e.,
>> completely useless for a motherboard with only PCI Express slots. Had
>> some old RAM sitting around too, probably DDR2, also useless for a DDR3
>> motherboard.
>
> Welcome to the world of future proof which is anything but. When I do my
> big refreshes I just know that it will be MB + RAM + CPU. Also probably
> the GPU as that still tends to be that thing that drives when I do an
> upgrade. PSU, generally ok. Storage that should be ok, at least for the
> moment as I don't see SATA going away anytime soon.

I think you mean planned obsolesce.

Also NVMe replacing SATA especially on laptops.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

Mike S <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote at 14:52 this Wednesday (GMT):
> On Tue, 05 Mar 2024 18:31:28 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Not really the way I wanted this day to go...
>
> Yeah, I understand that. My computer not working is the equivalent of
> my car not starting in the morning. Ugh.

Yeah, it sucks.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
> On 3/7/2024 4:34 AM, JAB wrote:
>> On 07/03/2024 10:15, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>> Isn't that the thing? Now that PCs are kinda mature, no one has spare
>>> parts for anything relevant. Last time I had a PC problem, a few years
>>> ago, my "spare parts" were in the form of classic PCI cards! I.e.,
>>> completely useless for a motherboard with only PCI Express slots. Had
>>> some old RAM sitting around too, probably DDR2, also useless for a DDR3
>>> motherboard.
>>
>> Welcome to the world of future proof which is anything but. When I do
>> my big refreshes I just know that it will be MB + RAM + CPU. Also
>> probably the GPU as that still tends to be that thing that drives when
>> I do an upgrade. PSU, generally ok. Storage that should be ok, at
>> least for the moment as I don't see SATA going away anytime soon.
>
> I think you mean planned obsolesce.
>

Not sure I agree on that as I can see why for components to advance it's
problematic if they are 'hamstrung' by what specification they can use.
To me planned obsolescent is more about building things that will fail
coupled with when they make it hard to repair them. One that has annoyed
me though is my better half's Kindle can basically only be used to
connect to our own router as the underlying protocols have moved on and
the Kindle hasn't.

Not something I'd argue about though.

I'd also say that with fast moving technologies I kinda accept that what
I bought five years ago will be showing its age.

> Also NVMe replacing SATA especially on laptops.
>

Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon so
it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means that
you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is part of
the MB - do they do that as it sounds exactly like the type of thing
Apple would do.

On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
> On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:

> Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon so
> it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means that
> you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is part of
> the MB - do they do  that as it sounds exactly like the type of thing
> Apple would do.

Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
been doing that on iphones for some time.

I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers
over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop. To get
them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
screw. I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.

HP is also supplying very off brand NVMe storage that is causing
bluescreens, so we've been having to replace them.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 09:46:44 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 11:06:10 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 3/6/2024 7:33 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:37:08 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>
>>>>> PC's broke.

So it looks like it /is/ an overclocking issue. Which is annoying
because I don't overclock.

My motherboard, on the other hand, DOES.

I was aware, of course, that ASUS motherboards supported overclocking.
I was also, in fact, aware that this option was enabled by default.
However, I had - wisely, I thought - disabled this feature as soon as
I got the PC. There's an option - almost the first option in the BIOS,
actually - called "AI Overclock Tuner" that I made sure was disabled
from the start.

Unfortunately, this was not the only option restricting the BIOS from
overclocking the CPU. There were a number of other options - labeled
'Multicore Enhancement' or 'CPU Optimizations' and similar - that
would automatically ramp up CPU frequency past the specced frequency
as CPU utilization rose. These were all enabled by default, and -
lacking clear definitions on what they did in the manual - I left them
alone. These settings often ramped the CPU up to 300MHz beyond the
rated speed of the CPU. In the beginning, this didn't cause any issue
but eventually this behavior started causing memory issues (first
noticed as corrupt ZIP archives) and, finally, with the computer
BSODing whenever Windows tried to boot.

Figuring out which options it was safe to disable was a challenge;
there is no clear documentation. But even with all the 'turbo mode'
features disabled, I was still running into problems, because many of
the default CPU settings were set scarily high.

Example: The 13900K & 14900K processors are rated by Intel
for a 'long duration power limit' (basically, 'normal mode
power usage') of 125W. The BIOS default? 253W. The
'short duration power limit' (where the CPU ramps up briefly
for 'turbo mode', usually lasting only a few seconds) has
a specified limit of 253W. The BIOS default?

4096W.

Jesus-fucking-Christ, ASUS!

I had to manually set a large number of options to fit within Intel's
recommended standards. Once I did that, my PC started to reliably boot
again, to the point where I could start stress-testing the new
settings to ensure stability.

Normally, I don't have a problem with ASUS but now I see why other
people here have issue with them.

Obviously my CPU never actually had 4096W pumped into it (as evidenced
by the fact that it's not a pile of ash). Not only can't my PSU
provide that much juice, but I am sure that the voltage was probably
throttled by hardware elsewhere on the board. The 4096W seems to me to
just be the motherboard's equivalent of 'this option isn't being
limited at all by the software'. It's still careless.

(It does speak volumes on the reliability and overhead built into
Intel's -K class processors that they survived this carelessness,
though.It's why I overpay for the -K class processors in the first
place, so that if something like this does happen, I'm provided some
modicum of protection.)

ASUS is completely to blame for this fiasco. Its 'enhancements' and
'optimizations' rode the CPU too heavily. It disguised the fact that
it was overclocking the CPU under misleading BIOS setting names. Even
when those features were disabled, its voltage settings were
carelessly high. It lacked documentation explaining what those
settings did.

I might have come to a quicker solution to this problem had ASUS BIOS
not been so misleading. Overclocking issues were one of the first
things I considered, after all. But the obvious settings were disabled
in the BIOS, so it /couldn't/ be an overclocking problem. Except, as
it turns out, it was.

My PC isn't fully functional yet, but at least now I'm on track to
getting it back into working order again. The current plan is to find
a stable CPU ratio (it looks like its rated 5500 will be sufficient;
its only if it goes above that do problems start showing up), then
stress test it for a while to ensure it can maintain stability at that
speed. Only after that will I reinstall the other hardware, NVMes, and
check the status of the OS. It'll probably take a week or so but in
time, I will be back on my main PC again.

Eventually I'll have to decide if I want to replace the motherboard
and CPU. But if I can get it stable, it may be a while before that
happens, even if I'm forced to underclock it a bit. CPU/motherboards
are expensive!

But if I do replace, my next motherboard definitely won't be an ASUS.

On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 07:27:45 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
>> On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
>
>> Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon so
>> it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means that
>> you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is part of
>> the MB - do they do  that as it sounds exactly like the type of thing
>> Apple would do.
>
>Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
>it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
>been doing that on iphones for some time.
>
>I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers
>over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
>any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
>bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop. To get
>them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
>tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
>screw. I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
>with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.

IIRC, there are (or were, it's been a while since I looked) of cheap
laptops - many of which are Chromebooks - which have either soldered
the M.2 NVMe boards directly to the motherboard, or embedded the NVMe
chips directly into the motherboard. Either way, upgrading (or
replacing) your storage is an impossibility.

Of course, these were all $200 laptops, so such behavior isn't
unexpected. But it's already being done.

I'm not opposed to M.2 NVMe mounts. M.2 is, after all, faster since it
directly accesses PCIE (even if most drives can't match the interface
speed yet). It's smaller form-factor has advantages too. You can also
more easily apply cooling directly to the M.2 sticks.

But neither am I gung-ho for the format. If it's there, I'll take
advantage of it. But it's not a necessity. SATA is still more than
capable of handling ordinary use-cases... and backwards compatibility
is always welcome.

On 3/8/2024 8:20 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 09:46:44 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 11:06:10 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/6/2024 7:33 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:37:08 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> PC's broke.
>
>
> So it looks like it /is/ an overclocking issue. Which is annoying
> because I don't overclock.
>
> My motherboard, on the other hand, DOES.
>
> I was aware, of course, that ASUS motherboards supported overclocking.
> I was also, in fact, aware that this option was enabled by default.
> However, I had - wisely, I thought - disabled this feature as soon as
> I got the PC. There's an option - almost the first option in the BIOS,
> actually - called "AI Overclock Tuner" that I made sure was disabled
> from the start.
>
> Unfortunately, this was not the only option restricting the BIOS from
> overclocking the CPU. There were a number of other options - labeled
> 'Multicore Enhancement' or 'CPU Optimizations' and similar - that
> would automatically ramp up CPU frequency past the specced frequency
> as CPU utilization rose. These were all enabled by default, and -
> lacking clear definitions on what they did in the manual - I left them
> alone. These settings often ramped the CPU up to 300MHz beyond the
> rated speed of the CPU. In the beginning, this didn't cause any issue
> but eventually this behavior started causing memory issues (first
> noticed as corrupt ZIP archives) and, finally, with the computer
> BSODing whenever Windows tried to boot.
>
> Figuring out which options it was safe to disable was a challenge;
> there is no clear documentation. But even with all the 'turbo mode'
> features disabled, I was still running into problems, because many of
> the default CPU settings were set scarily high.
>
> Example: The 13900K & 14900K processors are rated by Intel
> for a 'long duration power limit' (basically, 'normal mode
> power usage') of 125W. The BIOS default? 253W. The
> 'short duration power limit' (where the CPU ramps up briefly
> for 'turbo mode', usually lasting only a few seconds) has
> a specified limit of 253W. The BIOS default?
>
> 4096W.
>
> Jesus-fucking-Christ, ASUS!
>
>
> I had to manually set a large number of options to fit within Intel's
> recommended standards. Once I did that, my PC started to reliably boot
> again, to the point where I could start stress-testing the new
> settings to ensure stability.
>
> Normally, I don't have a problem with ASUS but now I see why other
> people here have issue with them.
>
>
> Obviously my CPU never actually had 4096W pumped into it (as evidenced
> by the fact that it's not a pile of ash). Not only can't my PSU
> provide that much juice, but I am sure that the voltage was probably
> throttled by hardware elsewhere on the board. The 4096W seems to me to
> just be the motherboard's equivalent of 'this option isn't being
> limited at all by the software'. It's still careless.
>
> (It does speak volumes on the reliability and overhead built into
> Intel's -K class processors that they survived this carelessness,
> though.It's why I overpay for the -K class processors in the first
> place, so that if something like this does happen, I'm provided some
> modicum of protection.)
>
> ASUS is completely to blame for this fiasco. Its 'enhancements' and
> 'optimizations' rode the CPU too heavily. It disguised the fact that
> it was overclocking the CPU under misleading BIOS setting names. Even
> when those features were disabled, its voltage settings were
> carelessly high. It lacked documentation explaining what those
> settings did.
>
> I might have come to a quicker solution to this problem had ASUS BIOS
> not been so misleading. Overclocking issues were one of the first
> things I considered, after all. But the obvious settings were disabled
> in the BIOS, so it /couldn't/ be an overclocking problem. Except, as
> it turns out, it was.
>
> My PC isn't fully functional yet, but at least now I'm on track to
> getting it back into working order again. The current plan is to find
> a stable CPU ratio (it looks like its rated 5500 will be sufficient;
> its only if it goes above that do problems start showing up), then
> stress test it for a while to ensure it can maintain stability at that
> speed. Only after that will I reinstall the other hardware, NVMes, and
> check the status of the OS. It'll probably take a week or so but in
> time, I will be back on my main PC again.
>
> Eventually I'll have to decide if I want to replace the motherboard
> and CPU. But if I can get it stable, it may be a while before that
> happens, even if I'm forced to underclock it a bit. CPU/motherboards
> are expensive!
>
> But if I do replace, my next motherboard definitely won't be an ASUS.
>
Congratulations on the impressive detective work.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 3/8/2024 7:27 AM, Justisaur wrote:
> On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
>> On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
>
>> Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
>> so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means
>> that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
>> part of the MB - do they do  that as it sounds exactly like the type
>> of thing Apple would do.
>
> Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
> it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
> been doing that on iphones for some time.
>
> I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers
> over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
> any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
> bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop.  To get
> them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
> tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
> screw.  I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
> with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
>
Non-standard is the new standard, didn't you know? :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote at 21:48 this Friday (GMT):
> On 3/8/2024 7:27 AM, Justisaur wrote:
>> On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
>>
>>> Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
>>> so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means
>>> that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
>>> part of the MB - do they do  that as it sounds exactly like the type
>>> of thing Apple would do.
>>
>> Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
>> it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
>> been doing that on iphones for some time.
>>
>> I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers
>> over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
>> any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
>> bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop.  To get
>> them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
>> tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
>> screw.  I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
>> with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
>>
> Non-standard is the new standard, didn't you know? :P

Sadly, probably more common than you'd think.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 3/8/2024 5:31 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote at 21:48 this Friday (GMT):
>> On 3/8/2024 7:27 AM, Justisaur wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
>>>> On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
>>>> so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means
>>>> that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
>>>> part of the MB - do they do  that as it sounds exactly like the type
>>>> of thing Apple would do.
>>>
>>> Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
>>> it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
>>> been doing that on iphones for some time.
>>>
>>> I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers
>>> over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
>>> any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
>>> bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop.  To get
>>> them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
>>> tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
>>> screw.  I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
>>> with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
>>>
>> Non-standard is the new standard, didn't you know? :P
>
> Sadly, probably more common than you'd think.

As someone who used to work with 911 call centers, no, not really.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote at 01:50 this Saturday (GMT):
> On 3/8/2024 5:31 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote at 21:48 this Friday (GMT):
>>> On 3/8/2024 7:27 AM, Justisaur wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
>>>>> On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
>>>>> so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means
>>>>> that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
>>>>> part of the MB - do they do  that as it sounds exactly like the type
>>>>> of thing Apple would do.
>>>>
>>>> Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
>>>> it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
>>>> been doing that on iphones for some time.
>>>>
>>>> I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers
>>>> over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
>>>> any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
>>>> bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop.  To get
>>>> them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
>>>> tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
>>>> screw.  I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
>>>> with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
>>>>
>>> Non-standard is the new standard, didn't you know? :P
>>
>> Sadly, probably more common than you'd think.
>
> As someone who used to work with 911 call centers, no, not really.

Fair enough, it does feel like there are more IOT things with a
propriatary ecosystem tho.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 08/03/2024 15:27, Justisaur wrote:
> On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
>> On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
>
>> Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
>> so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means
>> that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
>> part of the MB - do they do  that as it sounds exactly like the type
>> of thing Apple would do.
>
> Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
> it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
> been doing that on iphones for some time.
>

I only realised hat Apple did that a few years ago when it sounded like
my sister-in-law's Mac Book was becoming RAM bound. No problems thought
I just get some more memory open up the slot, put it in and job done. It
was only when I looked into it I found that nah, nah, it's part of the
MB so that's it. I did out of curiosity check the difference in prices
when you purchase a new one and boy are they taking the pee.

Another thing they now do is code different components so even if you
replace one like for like you still have to pay money to Apple to get
things recoded or you have reduced functionality.

I did have some hopes that when the EU looked into this* they would be
tougher on what they were allowed to do, unfortunately not.

*Now I'm from the UK but one of the lies told during Brexit was that we
wouldn't be 'shackled' by EU Laws, pointing out this isn't what would
happen in reality was labelled part of project fear.

> I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers
> over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
> any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
> bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop.  To get
> them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
> tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
> screw.  I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
> with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
>
> HP is also supplying very off brand NVMe storage that is causing
> bluescreens, so we've been having to replace them.
>

On 08/03/2024 17:15, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> I'm not opposed to M.2 NVMe mounts. M.2 is, after all, faster since it
> directly accesses PCIE (even if most drives can't match the interface
> speed yet). It's smaller form-factor has advantages too. You can also
> more easily apply cooling directly to the M.2 sticks.
>

I did see some tests done comparing SDD vs NVMe and their conclusion the
paper advantage doesn't lead to any practical advantage.

On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 09:37:17 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 08/03/2024 15:27, Justisaur wrote:
>> On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
>>
>>> Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
>>> so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means
>>> that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
>>> part of the MB - do they do  that as it sounds exactly like the type
>>> of thing Apple would do.
>>
>> Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
>> it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
>> been doing that on iphones for some time.
>>
>
>I only realised hat Apple did that a few years ago when it sounded like
>my sister-in-law's Mac Book was becoming RAM bound. No problems thought
>I just get some more memory open up the slot, put it in and job done. It
>was only when I looked into it I found that nah, nah, it's part of the
>MB so that's it. I did out of curiosity check the difference in prices
>when you purchase a new one and boy are they taking the pee.

Oh, yeah, Apple is famous for stuff like that. Come to think of it, at
least one edition of their MacMinis soldered the SDD/NVMe to the board
as well (I'm not sure if the chips themselves were integrated onto the
mainboard or if they just soldered the contacts of an SSD or NVMe
stick. Either way, you couldn't upgrade the storage).

But they did similar stuff with RAM. Arguably this was in line with
Steve Job's philosophy of a 'black box' electronic device that
end-users can just plug in and use. The conceit was that computers
should be as easy to use as a toaster; just plug them in and start
using it. No need to worry about how much memory or storage was
available, any more than you need to know what sort of fuse was in a
toaster or what light bulb was in your microwave oven. 'It just
worked'.

But it's a really stupid idea for PCs, which have such a wide array of
use-cases, and rarely is one PC completely interchangable with the
next, even for inexperienced users. People like having some
configurability to their devices.

The biggest advantage to this conceit is not for the end-user but for
the manufacturer. It greatly reduces manufacturing costs, for one
thing. If you do want to upgrade, the end user is also more likely to
go back to the manufacturer for help rather than trying to do it
himself (this also reduces tech support calls). And if the machine
breaks, the end user often has no alternative but to buy a whole new
machine rather than just swap out the busted component. It's all wins
for the manufacturer.

Fortunately, Apple isn't totally committed to the ideal, although they
do tend to swing back and forth over the years. I'd be more forgiving
of the attitude if Apple didn't charge a premium for their products. I
can accept extremely limited and locked down hardware if it's sold at
a cut-rate price, but Apple's prices suggest you're getting a more
capable machine than others, and too often their 'our way or the
highway' attitude is in opposition to that.

I think I may have digressed...

On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 13:46:50 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 3/8/2024 8:20 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>>>>> PC's broke.

>Congratulations on the impressive detective work.

Thanks... although I'm not sure it's deserved, given how long it took
me to figure it all out. ;-)

The primary PC is (mostly) back together now; all that's left is to
fasten the chassis covers and plug in the external peripherals. I'm
benchmarking and stress-testing it as I type this. It looks like my
computer is now 5-10% slower than it should compared to synthetic
benchmarks for its processor due to the underclocking. I may be able
to up the clock a bit, but at the moment I'm hesitant to experiment.
The difference reall isn't at all noticable anyway, except in
benchmarks. I doubt I'd notice it at all in games, especially as most
games are limited by their GPUs far more than their CPUs.

I probably could have solved this problem faster, except

a) since I had a functional backup PC, there was no essential need
for a fast solve,

b) I only had a limited amount of time every day to play
with the computers (made even shorter by how little
light gets into the study during winter months). At
most, I fiddled with the busted PC an hour a day tops,
and a lot of that time was spent just rebooting (usually
from a slow external CD-ROM drive),

and

c) the whole incident just annoyed me so much that I didn't
want to bother with it. Especially after I figured out
the it was the default settings of the motherboard that
had triggered the whole thing.

I have to (grudgingly) give kudos to Microsoft's operating system.
Despite the many, many, MANY BSODs and hard shutdowns the OS suffered
through - most of them at boot-up - when I finally did solve the
issue and reinstalled the HDD, Windows ran as if nothing had gone
awry. This despite the fact that - attempting to troubleshoot the
problem - I had instructed Windows to reset (and later do a clean
reinstall) in hopes that would solve the problem. But since the
hardware kept crashed the OS, it never got very far in that process.
Still, I fully expected I'd have to reinstall the OS. But nope,
Windows came through it all very cleanly.

So, current plan is more stress-testing, then finally button it all
up, copy all the files I worked on using the backup PC to the
hopefully-repaired primary, stress test some more and then finally
decide it's 'safe' to use it as my primary again. After which I can
hopefully put this whole nonsense episode behind me.