Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?

In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>
> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?

6" to 8" should be long enough. Lube up!

In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>
> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?

3

don't mess with it

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>
said:

> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>
>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>
> 3
>
> don't mess with it

Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear the same
as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your traffic stand-out,
as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.

Stainless Steel Rat

Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>
>said:
>
>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>
>> 3
>>
>> don't mess with it
>
>Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear the same
>as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your traffic stand-out,
>as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.

How will they know?

On 1/19/2024 4:41 AM, Yamn Remailer wrote:

> Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>
>> said:
>>
>>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>>
>>> 3
>>>
>>> don't mess with it
>>
>> Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear the same
>> as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your traffic stand-out,
>> as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.
>
> How will they know?

A standard Tor circuit length is 3 hops.

Change that, and your traffic is differentiated from all other
traffic.

The point is to blend in, not stand out.

Easy for an adversary to determine this.

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 07:41:31 -0500, Yamn Remailer <remailer@domain.invalid> wrote:
>Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>>On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>
>>said:
>>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>>
>>> 3
>>> don't mess with it
>>
>>Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear the same
>>as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your traffic stand-out,
>>as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.
>
>How will they know?

tor browser default seems to be three, but couldn't many tor users
also be using non-standard settings, four, five, or whatever . . .?
also, casual users (e.g. yours truly) may not be so concerned with
maximal anonymity compared with serious users of these technologies,
thereby increasing the random pool of non-standard tor setting users

>
> Changing the circuit length makes your traffic stand-out,
> as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.
>
¿ How can someone to know if an encrypted message will do
3 or 4 o N hops?

Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:
>On 1/19/2024 4:41 AM, Yamn Remailer wrote:
>> Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>
>>> said:
>>>
>>>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>>>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>>>
>>>> 3
>>>>
>>>> don't mess with it
>>>
>>> Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear the same
>>> as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your traffic stand-out,
>>> as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.
>>
>> How will they know?
>
>
>A standard Tor circuit length is 3 hops.
>
>Change that, and your traffic is differentiated from all other
>traffic.
>
>The point is to blend in, not stand out.
>
>Easy for an adversary to determine this.

How?

On 1/19/2024 1:41 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:
>> On 1/19/2024 4:41 AM, Yamn Remailer wrote:
>>> Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>
wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio
<nobody@dizum.com>
>>>> said:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>>>>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>> don't mess with it
>>>>
>>>> Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear
the same
>>>> as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your traffic
stand-out,
>>>> as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.
>>>
>>> How will they know?
>>
>>
>> A standard Tor circuit length is 3 hops.
>>
>> Change that, and your traffic is differentiated from all other
>> traffic.
>>
>> The point is to blend in, not stand out.
>>
>> Easy for an adversary to determine this.
>
> How?

The traffic is completely observable by a global passive adversary such
as the NSA or the GCHQ.
Correlation and timing attacks are non-trivial for them to do.

Good anonymity is all about minimizing risk.

It's best to leave the Tor default settings alone.

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 22:40:07 +0000, Yamn3 Remailer wrote:
>On 1/19/2024 1:41 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
>> Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:
>>> On 1/19/2024 4:41 AM, Yamn Remailer wrote:
>>>> Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>
>wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio
><nobody@dizum.com>
>>>>> said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>>>>>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>> don't mess with it
>>>>>
>>>>> Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear
>the same
>>>>> as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your traffic
>stand-out,
>>>>> as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.
>>>>
>>>> How will they know?
>>>
>>>
>>> A standard Tor circuit length is 3 hops.
>>>
>>> Change that, and your traffic is differentiated from all other
>>> traffic.
>>>
>>> The point is to blend in, not stand out.
>>>
>>> Easy for an adversary to determine this.
>>
>> How?
>
>
>The traffic is completely observable by a global passive adversary such
>as the NSA or the GCHQ.
>Correlation and timing attacks are non-trivial for them to do.

The longer the circuit the higher and more variable latency,
which makes correlation and timing attacks more difficult.

In article <20240119.224007.6f8655c2@mixmin.net> Yamn3 Remailer wrote:

> The traffic is completely observable by a global passive adversary such
> as the NSA or the GCHQ.
> Correlation and timing attacks are non-trivial for them to do.

Isn't the risk of being compromized by a circuit of 3 cooperating
Tor nodes very much higher than a successful "non-trivial" timing
correlation attack?

On 19 Jan 2024, Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> posted some
news:05dae771a95cfcc8d1c26f7fabec960a@remailer.paranoici.org:

>>
>> Changing the circuit length makes your traffic stand-out,
>> as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.
>>
> � How can someone to know if an encrypted message will do
> 3 or 4 o N hops?

You don't care how many hops an encrypted message takes. You only care
that it leaves and gets delivered reliably.

On 19 Jan 2024, Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> posted some
news:78ed755f17b5cd49ece8a11e5c14c21c@dizum.com:

> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 22:40:07 +0000, Yamn3 Remailer wrote:
>>On 1/19/2024 1:41 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>
>>> Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:
>>>> On 1/19/2024 4:41 AM, Yamn Remailer wrote:
>>>>> Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>
>>wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio
>><nobody@dizum.com>
>>>>>> said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>>>>>>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't mess with it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic
>>>>>> appear
>>the same
>>>>>> as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your
>>>>>> traffic
>>stand-out,
>>>>>> as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.
>>>>>
>>>>> How will they know?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A standard Tor circuit length is 3 hops.
>>>>
>>>> Change that, and your traffic is differentiated from all other
>>>> traffic.
>>>>
>>>> The point is to blend in, not stand out.
>>>>
>>>> Easy for an adversary to determine this.
>>>
>>> How?
>>
>>
>>The traffic is completely observable by a global passive adversary
>>such as the NSA or the GCHQ.
>>Correlation and timing attacks are non-trivial for them to do.
>
> The longer the circuit the higher and more variable latency,
> which makes correlation and timing attacks more difficult.

Your performance goes to Hell and you stick out like a pig with an
orange cone on your head.

If I'm looking, maybe I don't care about everyone else. I only care
about those using circuits like you and where you are going. Why?
Because you stand out like a hammer thumb and it's obvious you are up to
something. So if I can't get you, I'll try and ID what you're going to.

On 19 Jan 2024, D <J@M> posted some
news:7acdb55d4e85fef4f6ad1d4ca3164779@dizum.com:

> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 07:41:31 -0500, Yamn Remailer
> <remailer@domain.invalid> wrote:
>>Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>
>>wrote:
>>>On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio
>>><nobody@dizum.com> said:
>>>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>>>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>>>
>>>> 3
>>>> don't mess with it
>>>
>>>Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear
>>>the same as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your
>>>traffic stand-out, as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone
>>>else's.
>>
>>How will they know?

The client negotiates a separate set of encryption keys for each hop along
the circuit to ensure that each hop can't trace these connections as they
pass through.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/FNhRK.png

> tor browser default seems to be three, but couldn't many tor users
> also be using non-standard settings, four, five, or whatever . . .?
> also, casual users (e.g. yours truly) may not be so concerned with
> maximal anonymity compared with serious users of these technologies,
> thereby increasing the random pool of non-standard tor setting users

Certainly, but to what benefit?

The goal is to blend in with the rest of the packet scrum.

Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:

>The client negotiates a separate set of encryption keys for each hop along
>the circuit to ensure that each hop can't trace these connections as they
>pass through.
>
>https://i.stack.imgur.com/FNhRK.png

So tell us how Router B will know that it is Router B and not Router D.

>
>> tor browser default seems to be three, but couldn't many tor users
>> also be using non-standard settings, four, five, or whatever . . .?
>> also, casual users (e.g. yours truly) may not be so concerned with
>> maximal anonymity compared with serious users of these technologies,
>> thereby increasing the random pool of non-standard tor setting users
>
>Certainly, but to what benefit?
>
>The goal is to blend in with the rest of the packet scrum.

The goal is not to be deanonymized by a circuit with all hops owned by
the same operator, as then you're T-O-A-S-T.

In article <f96a9c30fb381c537345798ea0db2a95@dizum.com> Nomen Nescio
wrote:
>On 19 Jan 2024, Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> posted some
>news:78ed755f17b5cd49ece8a11e5c14c21c@dizum.com:

>> The longer the circuit the higher and more variable latency,
>> which makes correlation and timing attacks more difficult.
>
>Your performance goes to Hell

Nope. Performance is great. Try to watch YT videos through chains of
5+ nodes and you'll see.

> and you stick out like a pig with an
>orange cone on your head.

You still have to tell us which characteristics make such connections
stick out.

>
>If I'm looking, maybe I don't care about everyone else. I only care
>about those using circuits like you and where you are going. Why?
>Because you stand out like a hammer thumb

Once again, how?

> and it's obvious you are up to
>something.

An unrealistic assumption after it has become very easy for a Tor user
to go for longer, more secure circuits by simply selecting a higher
number from a pulldown menu.

Btw, the now defunct Advanced Onion Router (AdvOR) also had such an
option.
<https://www.te-home.net/data_files/work/advor/advor_screen_25.png>
<https://www.te-home.net/?do=work&id=advor>
<https://github.com/advor/advor>

> So if I can't get you, I'll try and ID what you're going to.

Keep on trying.

CU (expecting you miss me)

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 06:03:36 -0000 (UTC), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:
>On 19 Jan 2024, D <J@M> posted some news:7acdb55d4e85fef4f6ad1d4ca3164779@dizum.com:
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 07:41:31 -0500, Yamn Remailer <remailer@domain.invalid> wrote:
>>>Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> said:
>>>>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>>>>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>>>> 3
>>>>> don't mess with it
>>>>Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear
>>>>the same as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your
>>>>traffic stand-out, as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone
>>>>else's.
>>>How will they know?
>
>The client negotiates a separate set of encryption keys for each hop along
>the circuit to ensure that each hop can't trace these connections as they
>pass through.
>https://i.stack.imgur.com/FNhRK.png
>
>> tor browser default seems to be three, but couldn't many tor users
>> also be using non-standard settings, four, five, or whatever . . .?
>> also, casual users (e.g. yours truly) may not be so concerned with
>> maximal anonymity compared with serious users of these technologies,
>> thereby increasing the random pool of non-standard tor setting users
>
>Certainly, but to what benefit?
>The goal is to blend in with the rest of the packet scrum.

nice image (using Tor Browser 13.0.8)
https://i.stack.imgur.com/FNhRK.png
(FNhRK.png / 42.62 kb / 4427 uc)

writing as a casual but experienced user of remailers, tor, etc.,
this "blend in or die" convention seems authoritarian, religious
like a papal bull; reverse-psychology suggests that's deliberate,
in this case, knowing that a significant percentage of tor users
will test using more than three nodes at unpredictable intervals,
thereby muddying the waters; also, if serious tor users disagree
on this three-hop sacred cow, then only those onion-router gurus
could be qualified to debate the issue; if most say "use only 3",
then probably that is the safest advise; remailer chains seem to
work similarly, e.g. a random chain of five (* * * * *) reliable
mix or yamn remailers may be common, but so is using shorter and
longer chains (i typically use only two, * exit w/custom "from");

On 1/20/2024 3:58 AM, 6-Hopper wrote:

>> If I'm looking, maybe I don't care about everyone else. I only care
>> about those using circuits like you and where you are going. Why?
>> Because you stand out like a hammer thumb
>
> Once again, how?

Once again, all Internet traffic is completely observable to a
nation-state adversary who has unlimited resources.

Haven't you read the Snowden docs?

Why don't you get that?

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 12:58:07 +0100 (CET), 6-Hopper <6-hopper@tor.example> wrote:
>In article <f96a9c30fb381c537345798ea0db2a95@dizum.com> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>On 19 Jan 2024, Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> posted some
>>news:78ed755f17b5cd49ece8a11e5c14c21c@dizum.com:
>>> The longer the circuit the higher and more variable latency,
>>> which makes correlation and timing attacks more difficult.
>>Your performance goes to Hell
>Nope. Performance is great. Try to watch YT videos through chains of
>5+ nodes and you'll see.
>> and you stick out like a pig with an
>>orange cone on your head.
>You still have to tell us which characteristics make such connections
>stick out.
>>If I'm looking, maybe I don't care about everyone else. I only care
>>about those using circuits like you and where you are going. Why?
>>Because you stand out like a hammer thumb
>Once again, how?
>> and it's obvious you are up to
>>something.
>An unrealistic assumption after it has become very easy for a Tor user
>to go for longer, more secure circuits by simply selecting a higher
>number from a pulldown menu.
>Btw, the now defunct Advanced Onion Router (AdvOR) also had such an
>option.
><https://www.te-home.net/data_files/work/advor/advor_screen_25.png>
><https://www.te-home.net/?do=work&id=advor>
><https://github.com/advor/advor>
>
>> So if I can't get you, I'll try and ID what you're going to.
>
>Keep on trying.
>CU (expecting you miss me)

(using Tor Browser 13.0.8)
https://www.te-home.net/data_files/work/advor/advor_screen_25.png
(advor_screen_25.png / 22.10 kb / 361 uc)

https://www.te-home.net/?do=work&id=advor
>AdvOR, formerly known as AdvTOR or Advanced Tor, is a client for OR network and
>is intended to be an improved alternative for Tor + Vidalia + Privoxy/Polipo
>bundle for Windows users. Before trying Advanced Onion Router, try the original
>Tor client and read the available documentation to get familiar with Onion Routing
>and OR network. You may find Vidalia easier to use. Some of the improvements of
>Advanced Onion Router include support for HTTP(S) proxy on same SOCKS4/SOCKS5 port,
>a user interface which makes all Tor available options more accessible, local
>banlist for forbidden addresses and the ability to "force" a program and its
>extensions and plugins to use the Tor proxy regardless of its configured proxy
>settings. More features will be added in next versions.
> GitHub https://github.com/advor/advor
> Plugins https://www.te-home.net/?do=work&id=aorplug
>Screenshots
>More screenshots
>...
>Files
>File Version Date Comments Get
>AdvOR 0.3.1.5 0.3.1.5 2017-11-05 14:06 12 Get
>https://www.te-home.net/?do=work&id=advor&file=164
(advor-0.3.1.5.zip / 5.23 MB), extracted . . .
(advor-0.3.1.5\AdvOR / 12.9 MB / 78 Files, 8 Folders)
(OR network > Router restrictions > Circuit length: 1-10 routers)
>...
>Copyright
>(c) 2009-2024 Albu Cristian
[end quoted excerpt]

> Once again, all Internet traffic is completely observable to a
> nation-state adversary who has unlimited resources.

We're all doomed! All of us will die! No chance to escape!

> Why don't you get that?

Got it.

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:40:11 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:
>On 1/20/2024 3:58 AM, 6-Hopper wrote:
>>In article <f96a9c30fb381c537345798ea0db2a95@dizum.com> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>> If I'm looking, maybe I don't care about everyone else. I only care
>>> about those using circuits like you and where you are going. Why?
>>> Because you stand out like a hammer thumb
>>
>> Once again, how?
>
>Once again, all Internet traffic is completely observable to a
>nation-state adversary who has unlimited resources.

and you would know this . . . how?! no one with top secret clearance
would be discussing any thing at any time with any one without first
they have a sit down with the bosses; therefore, if you are actually
a made guy, the fact that you're posting in this public forum proves
that you are propagating disinformation, lying, your lips are moving

Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:

> A standard Tor circuit length is 3 hops.
>
> Change that, and your traffic is differentiated from all other
> traffic.

That's nonsense. Tor communication doesn't leak the path length.
Each transmitted cell has 512 bytes in size, and due to symmetric
multilayer encryption only the targeted Tor router knows, whether
it's a control or relay cell and which command it contains. There's
even the option of a leaky-pipe circuit topology, where a stream's
edge could be any hop within the circuit. So what you try to make
us believe doesn't hold water.

Thus, if you as a Tor guy fear longer circuits would stress the
network, that's a problem of the past. And if you as a TLA guy fear
your life's getting harder with stronger anonymity, shut up and get
lost!

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:23:02 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:
>> Once again, all Internet traffic is completely observable to a
>> nation-state adversary who has unlimited resources.
>
>We're all doomed! All of us will die! No chance to escape!
>
>> Why don't you get that?
>
>Got it.

from the beginning, all that exists in the magnetic flux of temporality is
continually dying, like usenet has been dying since the day it was created
some forty-four years ago; mostly fearmongers populate the inhabited earth,
tied to the mortal body in a continual state of dying from cradle to grave;
it is they who invented the protection racket, and made aliens of the dead

On 1/19/24 13:41, Yamn Remailer wrote:
> Stainless Steel Rat <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>
>> said:
>>
>>> In article <20240118.222812.1833a80e@yamn.paranoici.org>
>>> Anonymous <nobody@yamn.paranoici.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Tor - Cfg - Circuit Length?
>>>
>>> 3
>>>
>>> don't mess with it
>>
>> Precisely. The point of using a Tor is to make your traffic appear the same
>> as everyone else's. Changing the circuit length makes your traffic stand-out,
>> as it is no longer using 3 hops like everyone else's.
>
> How will they know?
>

Your entry node knows the circuit length. This protects the Tor network
against circuit lengths of 9999999999.

This was previously the cause of a severe deanonymization vulnerability
in Tor - "the RELAY_EARLY bug".