Windows11 will not tolerate my motherboard because it lacks that chip.
I suspect this old machine and Win10 will outlive me, so I'm not very
serious about shopping for a pre-built machine and I'm kinda scared to
attempt a build (mostly because of the old-age frailities I've picked
since I built the last one, but also because of the money - I'm
finally fully retired now (89) and the inflation is kinda terrifying).

But.. I've been looking around a little anyway, mostly at pre-builts,
but in trying to study their components I find many modern
motherboards say they will only 'support' Windows10. That's a
deal-breaker (only one of many: no external cd rom, no front usb
ports, some seem to lack a harddrive bay???)

Anyway, like I said, I think the FIRST thing I want to consider is
whether it'll run WinXP and go from there. Do you guys have any advice
on how far back (in time) in motherboards I must look to assure it'll
have drivers to run XP?
And of course have Win11 capability, those M sockets for ssd's, 32GB
RAM, a popup boot menu etc etc.

On 3/28/2024 2:44 PM, crasso@nycap.rr.com wrote:
> Windows11 will not tolerate my motherboard because it lacks that chip.
> I suspect this old machine and Win10 will outlive me, so I'm not very
> serious about shopping for a pre-built machine and I'm kinda scared to
> attempt a build (mostly because of the old-age frailities I've picked
> since I built the last one, but also because of the money - I'm
> finally fully retired now (89) and the inflation is kinda terrifying).
>
> But.. I've been looking around a little anyway, mostly at pre-builts,
> but in trying to study their components I find many modern
> motherboards say they will only 'support' Windows10. That's a
> deal-breaker (only one of many: no external cd rom, no front usb
> ports, some seem to lack a harddrive bay???)
>
> Anyway, like I said, I think the FIRST thing I want to consider is
> whether it'll run WinXP and go from there. Do you guys have any advice
> on how far back (in time) in motherboards I must look to assure it'll
> have drivers to run XP?
> And of course have Win11 capability, those M sockets for ssd's, 32GB
> RAM, a popup boot menu etc etc.
>

Windows 11 prefers a CPU with hardware MBEC support.
Which at the time of Windows 11, specified "no more than three year old processors".

However, Windows 11 disk drive, if stuck in an older computer, still boots.
When a Win11 version comes out which requires POPCNT instruction (not available
on E8400), then the boot of transferred disk drives will be amended a bit.

Windows 11 could use fTPM (BIOS TPM emulator), or it can use a physical
TPM module (many form factors and pinouts - maybe a 14 pin one has three
different pinouts on the market). My computer store, no longer has the TPM
module that fits my B550 board. There is no particular reason, TPM modules
must be "cycled" this often in design. (Changed, to fuck with the customers.)

*******

Win7 worked up to Skylake, with Microsoft blessing. Drivers can be
missing on later stuff.

For WinXP, you would need older-still kit, and a used system is the most
likely to be accessible. Video drivers could be a problem on WinXP,
and you might need an older video card. I have three that might work,
the 7900 or so from NVidia (PCIe), the HD6450 from AMD (PCIe), and
I have an FX5200 PCI (a horrible option, but useful in its time
for temporary usage). The 7900 spanned WinXP thru early Win10, but
I doubt today there is a WDDM driver of new enough vintage.

Generally speaking, a WinXP machine won't span far enough forward to cover
Win11. That's a bit too much of a stretch. Maybe you could span
say, Win8 thru Win11 hardware wise. Or you could span WinXP thru Win10
(which I've done with an E8400 and X48). The 7900 video card, was from
the BFG going-out-of-business sale, and the video card might have
been $65 brand new in box. Only one shipment of those showed up
and I could only get one of them. The video card in the computer
right now, is a "single-shipment" deal as well, could not go back
to the computer store and get a second one. Some people would
term the things I buy, as junk, and they'd be pretty close :-)

But on motherboards, I don't think there's that much interest
in keeping junk around. Just as production of DDR3 chips stopped
last year, and this behavior is also a bit weird, compared to the
duration of production of some older types. The world is more of
a "here and now" place. Less depth of stock. Less TigerDirect.

I would point you at a refurb, like my Optiplex 780, as that's
an E7500 Core2 and a Q45. That's likely to run WinXP from a driver
perspective. I don't know if that was released with Vista or
with Win7, as the shipping OS. The Q45 is roughly the same
vintage as my X48 (and it ran WinXP). The Optiplex 780 in Mid-Tower
is likely easier to repair, and the smaller ones (USFF), I don't like
the small stuff, because of the trouble in finding a decent
video card that even remotely fits. Sure, you can use the Q45...
for your screen saver.

The machine had DisplayPort, but it's not
DP++ and cannot be passively converted to HDMI with a $7 cable.
But I got an active converter, and it's proved useful a number
of times now for little projects, so not a waste of money at all.
For example, the HDMI on my new monitor didn't work right,
but driving the monitor using the DP to HDMI active adapter
worked just great. That's why I've recommended to people in the
past, to stock a few cheap active converters at home, to cover
"issues" with the shit you buy.

For the "E7500 Core2 and Q45", that refused to upgrade to
Win10 22H2. 21H2 was fine. The installer didn't say anything, but
I think the available driver might have been XDDM all that time,
and eventually they dropped XDDM support and wanted some
version of WDDM only. I stuck the HD6450 in the machine (13 watt
card), and it has an early WDDM driver, good enough to get
22H2 to install.

I only give little hints like this, to suggest how many rough
edges this stuff has. It takes a lot of "research", to make
absolutely sure a used or old setup, is really worth the money.
It helps if the machines are "regular size", so more video card
options are available.

When my X48 died, I couldn't find a trustworthy exact replacement.

I have managed to install WinXP on my X79 machine... but the
screen ran at 800x600 (no driver for video). Which is hardly useful.
I had to make up a little driver floppy and F6 that in. An
Asmedia SATA card I happen to have, has a WinXP driver. I had
to scout around my junk pile, to figure that out. Big smile on my
face, when I insert the CD in the machine, and the stupid thing
has a WinXP driver folder. Surprise! But not hearly as lucky on
video. I think the video card barely got a Win7 driver (one driver),
and the card doesn't go back further than that.

Lots of calculating and scheming to do, that's for sure.
Not an easy job (labor intensive, time waster).

Paul

<crasso@nycap.rr.com> wrote:

> Windows11 will not tolerate my motherboard because it lacks that chip.

There are 2 ways to supply TPM support: a TPM chip, or BIOS firmware.
While my mobo has a TPM slot, it also has Intel's PTT (Platform Trust
Technology) code in its BIOS to emulate the chip. AMD has their fTPM
BIOS code. You may have to go into the BIOS to enable this feature.

I purposely did not fab my host to include a TPM module. I also went
into BIOS to deliberately disable Intel PTT. This ensures I am not
bothered by Windows Update offering me to upgrade to Windows 11. Easy
kill switch. If I sometime later (probably Windows 12 more likely than
Windows 11) decide to upgrade from Windows 10, I go into the BIOS to
re-enable Intel PTT, and allow the upgrade. If I want to revert, I
would have to first disable Intel PTT in BIOS, and then restore to the
image backup before I started all this.

> I suspect this old machine and Win10 will outlive me, so I'm not very
> serious about shopping for a pre-built machine and I'm kinda scared to
> attempt a build (mostly because of the old-age frailities I've picked
> since I built the last one, but also because of the money - I'm
> finally fully retired now (89) and the inflation is kinda terrifying).

Since you did not identify your mobo (brand and model), no way anyone
else can check if it has a setting for Intel PTT or AMD fTPM. Read the
mobo's manual. It should mention this option if supported.

As Paul mentioned, there may be other requirements than just TPM, like
which CPUs are supported by Windows 11 as well as RAM minimum. See:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/windows-processor-requirements

Maybe PC Health Check might provide some guidance:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/how-to-use-the-pc-health-check-app-9c8abd9b-03ba-4e67-81ef-36f37caa7844

I don't have that app installed on Windows 10 to see what it reports.

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 17:04:20 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 3/28/2024 2:44 PM, crasso@nycap.rr.com wrote:
>> Windows11 will not tolerate my motherboard because it lacks that chip.
>> I suspect this old machine and Win10 will outlive me, so I'm not very
>> serious about shopping for a pre-built machine and I'm kinda scared to
>> attempt a build (mostly because of the old-age frailities I've picked
>> since I built the last one, but also because of the money - I'm
>> finally fully retired now (89) and the inflation is kinda terrifying).
>>
>> But.. I've been looking around a little anyway, mostly at pre-builts,
>> but in trying to study their components I find many modern
>> motherboards say they will only 'support' Windows10. That's a
>> deal-breaker (only one of many: no external cd rom, no front usb
>> ports, some seem to lack a harddrive bay???)
>>
>> Anyway, like I said, I think the FIRST thing I want to consider is
>> whether it'll run WinXP and go from there. Do you guys have any advice
>> on how far back (in time) in motherboards I must look to assure it'll
>> have drivers to run XP?
>> And of course have Win11 capability, those M sockets for ssd's, 32GB
>> RAM, a popup boot menu etc etc.
>>
>
>Windows 11 prefers a CPU with hardware MBEC support.
>Which at the time of Windows 11, specified "no more than three year old processors".
>
>However, Windows 11 disk drive, if stuck in an older computer, still boots.
>When a Win11 version comes out which requires POPCNT instruction (not available
>on E8400), then the boot of transferred disk drives will be amended a bit.

That's very interesting. Should I acquire a Win11 laptop I might try
cloning it onto my boot drive. I imagine I'd soon get crosswise of
usoft, as the one user aspect they're interested in is one of them
cheating them out of a nickel.
>
>Windows 11 could use fTPM (BIOS TPM emulator), or it can use a physical
>TPM module (many form factors and pinouts - maybe a 14 pin one has three
>different pinouts on the market). My computer store, no longer has the TPM
>module that fits my B550 board. There is no particular reason, TPM modules
>must be "cycled" this often in design. (Changed, to fuck with the customers.)
>
>*******
>
>Win7 worked up to Skylake, with Microsoft blessing. Drivers can be
>missing on later stuff.
>
>For WinXP, you would need older-still kit, and a used system is the most
>likely to be accessible. Video drivers could be a problem on WinXP,
>and you might need an older video card. I have three that might work,
>the 7900 or so from NVidia (PCIe), the HD6450 from AMD (PCIe), and
>I have an FX5200 PCI (a horrible option, but useful in its time
>for temporary usage). The 7900 spanned WinXP thru early Win10, but
>I doubt today there is a WDDM driver of new enough vintage.
>
>Generally speaking, a WinXP machine won't span far enough forward to cover
>Win11. That's a bit too much of a stretch. Maybe you could span
>say, Win8 thru Win11 hardware wise. Or you could span WinXP thru Win10

Yep, I stuggled Win10 onto mine with an XP, Win7, Win10 triple boot.

>(which I've done with an E8400 and X48). The 7900 video card, was from
>the BFG going-out-of-business sale, and the video card might have
>been $65 brand new in box. Only one shipment of those showed up
>and I could only get one of them. The video card in the computer
>right now, is a "single-shipment" deal as well, could not go back
>to the computer store and get a second one. Some people would
>term the things I buy, as junk, and they'd be pretty close :-)
>
>But on motherboards, I don't think there's that much interest
>in keeping junk around. Just as production of DDR3 chips stopped
>last year, and this behavior is also a bit weird, compared to the
>duration of production of some older types. The world is more of
>a "here and now" place. Less depth of stock. Less TigerDirect.
>
>I would point you at a refurb, like my Optiplex 780, as that's
>an E7500 Core2 and a Q45. That's likely to run WinXP from a driver
>perspective. I don't know if that was released with Vista or
>with Win7, as the shipping OS. The Q45 is roughly the same
>vintage as my X48 (and it ran WinXP). The Optiplex 780 in Mid-Tower
>is likely easier to repair, and the smaller ones (USFF), I don't like
>the small stuff, because of the trouble in finding a decent
>video card that even remotely fits. Sure, you can use the Q45...
>for your screen saver.
>
>The machine had DisplayPort, but it's not
>DP++ and cannot be passively converted to HDMI with a $7 cable.
>But I got an active converter, and it's proved useful a number
>of times now for little projects, so not a waste of money at all.
>For example, the HDMI on my new monitor didn't work right,
>but driving the monitor using the DP to HDMI active adapter
>worked just great. That's why I've recommended to people in the
>past, to stock a few cheap active converters at home, to cover
>"issues" with the shit you buy.
>
>For the "E7500 Core2 and Q45", that refused to upgrade to
>Win10 22H2. 21H2 was fine. The installer didn't say anything, but
>I think the available driver might have been XDDM all that time,
>and eventually they dropped XDDM support and wanted some
>version of WDDM only. I stuck the HD6450 in the machine (13 watt
>card), and it has an early WDDM driver, good enough to get
>22H2 to install.
>
>I only give little hints like this, to suggest how many rough
>edges this stuff has. It takes a lot of "research", to make
>absolutely sure a used or old setup, is really worth the money.
>It helps if the machines are "regular size", so more video card
>options are available.

And also, if you read between my lines, I kinda got a stupid yen for a
blazing fast new computer. Maybe I'm trying to talk myself into it,
instead of just poking around and learning stuff 'just in case' I pull
the trigger. As Vanguard suggested, it might be wise to wait till
Win12, when they really get serious about strangling my Win10.

Also, now that Win10 is on there I hardly boot it except to perform
updates. Win7 browser is working fine so far.
>
>When my X48 died, I couldn't find a trustworthy exact replacement.
>
>I have managed to install WinXP on my X79 machine... but the
>screen ran at 800x600 (no driver for video). Which is hardly useful.
>I had to make up a little driver floppy and F6 that in. An
>Asmedia SATA card I happen to have, has a WinXP driver. I had
>to scout around my junk pile, to figure that out. Big smile on my
>face, when I insert the CD in the machine, and the stupid thing
>has a WinXP driver folder. Surprise! But not hearly as lucky on
>video. I think the video card barely got a Win7 driver (one driver),
>and the card doesn't go back further than that.
>
>Lots of calculating and scheming to do, that's for sure.
>Not an easy job (labor intensive, time waster).
>
> Paul

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 16:55:01 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

><crasso@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Windows11 will not tolerate my motherboard because it lacks that chip.
>
>There are 2 ways to supply TPM support: a TPM chip, or BIOS firmware.
>While my mobo has a TPM slot, it also has Intel's PTT (Platform Trust
>Technology) code in its BIOS to emulate the chip. AMD has their fTPM
>BIOS code. You may have to go into the BIOS to enable this feature.
>
>I purposely did not fab my host to include a TPM module. I also went
>into BIOS to deliberately disable Intel PTT. This ensures I am not
>bothered by Windows Update offering me to upgrade to Windows 11. Easy
>kill switch. If I sometime later (probably Windows 12 more likely than
>Windows 11) decide to upgrade from Windows 10, I go into the BIOS to
>re-enable Intel PTT, and allow the upgrade. If I want to revert, I
>would have to first disable Intel PTT in BIOS, and then restore to the
>image backup before I started all this.

I like your idea about waiting for Win12.
>
>> I suspect this old machine and Win10 will outlive me, so I'm not very
>> serious about shopping for a pre-built machine and I'm kinda scared to
>> attempt a build (mostly because of the old-age frailities I've picked
>> since I built the last one, but also because of the money - I'm
>> finally fully retired now (89) and the inflation is kinda terrifying).
>
>Since you did not identify your mobo (brand and model), no way anyone
>else can check if it has a setting for Intel PTT or AMD fTPM. Read the
>mobo's manual. It should mention this option if supported.

Sorry, mb is Abit IP35 Pro XE. cpu is Intel Core 2 Duo E8400. Both
circa 2008. 8gigs of DDR2 ram. Pretty sure I can't massage the BIOS
into acceptance. I'm pretty familiar with it after 15 years.
>
>As Paul mentioned, there may be other requirements than just TPM, like
>which CPUs are supported by Windows 11 as well as RAM minimum. See:
>
>https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications
>https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/windows-processor-requirements
>
>Maybe PC Health Check might provide some guidance:
>
>https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/how-to-use-the-pc-health-check-app-9c8abd9b-03ba-4e67-81ef-36f37caa7844
>
>I don't have that app installed on Windows 10 to see what it reports.

No I never d/l'd it either, Maybe I'll take a look. Win10 tells me I'm
not fit for Win11 everytime I do updates.

"John B. Smith" <crasso@verizon.net> wrote:

> Abit IP35 Pro XE.

Many mobos are designed for use by non-expert consumers (aka boobs).
They may give few options. I hate those type of mobos as you are ousted
from control. They're designed for simple setups where users never
intrude on the BIOS settings.

I found an online manual for that mobo at:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/205153/Abit-Ip35-Pro.html

A search on "tpm" has no hits.

TPM was introduced in 2009. Your mobo is older, so probably has no
support for TPM as a hardware module or firmware in BIOS.

On 3/28/2024 9:07 PM, John B. Smith wrote:

> And also, if you read between my lines, I kinda got a stupid yen for a
> blazing fast new computer. Maybe I'm trying to talk myself into it,
> instead of just poking around and learning stuff 'just in case' I pull
> the trigger. As Vanguard suggested, it might be wise to wait till
> Win12, when they really get serious about strangling my Win10.
>
> Also, now that Win10 is on there I hardly boot it except to perform
> updates. Win7 browser is working fine so far.

At this point, W12 will use an NPU.

The keyboard will have a CoPilot button on it.

Perhaps you might talk to your computer (like
it was Alexa, "turn on this or that").

You can wait for Intel to get its shit together,
and maybe a more recent CPU will have a second-gen
NPU inside it. As well as a small GPU of course.
The NPU Intel is currently shipping seems to be
a smallish multiply-accumulate unit (perhaps
capable of matrix multiplication, which has been
used for neural networks). There's likely a bit more
glue needed in the thing, to catch up with AMD.

You can think of the launch objective to be
"any AI command a smartphone can support,
we want to support that on a desktop".

That would include, making modifications to a
picture in Paint. "remove Tom from my family photo"
That sort of thing. The NPU could help with photo
manipulation.

As near as I can tell, these things don't have
tight coupling, so the NPU can live in the CPU or not
(but just because Intel and AMD are having a battle
with NVidia, and they will try and remove the
low end part of the market from the grasp of NVidia).

TPM
|
GPU---CPU---NPU [do not have to be inside the same package]

Keyboard-with-CoPilot-Button [dream on, twits]

Because there is a rent seeking behavior implied, and
these companies will be showing Bezos how to run Alexa,
the CoPilot button is a form of "daily advertising".
They could not rely on Acer printing "now with CoPilot"
on that little plate that goes on the corner of
the laptop. Having a CoPilot key will serve that function.

They would call the button "the Bing button", but the
marketing men told them "No".

Longer queries you make, will be sent to the Microsoft
datacenter, and might take ten seconds to service. The
queries might live in a device with 1TB of memory, whereas
the NPU activity on your own machine, is estimated to
need 8GB of memory. Which is why W12 has a 16GB minimum
memory requirement. When it really only "needs" about
2.6GB . Deallocating the NPU system memory, means you
can't turn the lights on and off in the room,
using your W12 computer.

To run a model which is similar to the 1TB thing,
I've been looking at various shoot-from-the-hip efforts,
and someone thinks that 256GB might do it for a fuller
local execution model. But that's really just echoing
that DDR5 recently got to the point of supporting
256GB on four modules, and that is the
"striking distance value for a desktop".

NPU ??? ???
| | |
8GB 256GB 1TB+

Every computer. More capable Datacenter (rental)
Relatively lame local model. Queries.

"remove Tom from "Hallucinate "write me some C code
family photo" a beer bong" to create world peace"

This is the recently consumed content, as part of making projections.
The fear involved here is, if the CPU does not have an NPU, the
add-in NPU card might be too expensive for what it will be doing
(doing the "small" model).

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/xdna.html

https://www.engadget.com/intel-unveils-core-ultra-its-first-chips-with-npus-for-ai-work-150021289.html

Their standalone card appears to be an FPGA, since it is on a
Xilinx web page! Yikes! Automatically, the card is over $1000 then.
(The largest FPGA always costs $1000. One FPGA on the card.)

https://www.xilinx.com/applications/data-center/v70.html

You can see this topic is "too unripe" for consumer planning.
You could already remove Tom from the family photo, using
your smartphone, and you would not need W12 at all then.

Paul

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 20:36:23 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>"John B. Smith" <crasso@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Abit IP35 Pro XE.
>
>Many mobos are designed for use by non-expert consumers (aka boobs).
>They may give few options. I hate those type of mobos as you are ousted
>from control. They're designed for simple setups where users never
>intrude on the BIOS settings.

Actually I thought that the Ip35 Pro had a better BIOS manual than the
other pcs I had before I decided to build that one. But what do I
know?
>
>I found an online manual for that mobo at:
>
>https://www.manualslib.com/manual/205153/Abit-Ip35-Pro.html
>
>A search on "tpm" has no hits.
>
>TPM was introduced in 2009. Your mobo is older, so probably has no
>support for TPM as a hardware module or firmware in BIOS.

I was kinda attracted to this pre-built
https://www.newegg.com/yeyian-ypi-pg49kfc-47y1n-phoenix-glass/p/N82E16883630052?Item=N82E16883630052

So as an exercise to begin educating myself I tried to download a
manual for that ASUS Z790 mb. Its bigger brother says ASUS Z790 D5
Wifi. Couldn't find an exact match for that on the ASUS site. But this
seems close
https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1700/PRIME%20Z790-A%20WIFI/E21270_PRIME_Z790-A_WIFI_UM_V3_WEB.pdf?model=PRIME%20Z790-A%20WIFI

They give a brief discussion of the BIOS then encourage you to scan a
Q code to download a BIOS manual? I ashamed to say I don't even know
how to do that. Why make it hard? My old machine's mb manual had
pages of BIOS stuff in it. I can't find any BIOS manual on their site.
Some closely guarded ASUS secret of something?

Another mb did have a pic of the initial BIOS screen – very busy, but
no info about the further menus available. It does say don't mess with
it without an expert to hold your hand.

On 3/29/2024 9:31 PM, crasso@nycap.rr.com wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 20:36:23 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>> "John B. Smith" <crasso@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Abit IP35 Pro XE.
>>
>> Many mobos are designed for use by non-expert consumers (aka boobs).
>> They may give few options. I hate those type of mobos as you are ousted
>>from control. They're designed for simple setups where users never
>> intrude on the BIOS settings.
>
> Actually I thought that the Ip35 Pro had a better BIOS manual than the
> other pcs I had before I decided to build that one. But what do I
> know?
>>
>> I found an online manual for that mobo at:
>>
>> https://www.manualslib.com/manual/205153/Abit-Ip35-Pro.html
>>
>> A search on "tpm" has no hits.
>>
>> TPM was introduced in 2009. Your mobo is older, so probably has no
>> support for TPM as a hardware module or firmware in BIOS.
>
> I was kinda attracted to this pre-built
> https://www.newegg.com/yeyian-ypi-pg49kfc-47y1n-phoenix-glass/p/N82E16883630052?Item=N82E16883630052
>
> So as an exercise to begin educating myself I tried to download a
> manual for that ASUS Z790 mb. Its bigger brother says ASUS Z790 D5
> Wifi. Couldn't find an exact match for that on the ASUS site. But this
> seems close
> https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1700/PRIME%20Z790-A%20WIFI/E21270_PRIME_Z790-A_WIFI_UM_V3_WEB.pdf?model=PRIME%20Z790-A%20WIFI
>
> They give a brief discussion of the BIOS then encourage you to scan a
> Q code to download a BIOS manual? I ashamed to say I don't even know
> how to do that. Why make it hard? My old machine's mb manual had
> pages of BIOS stuff in it. I can't find any BIOS manual on their site.
> Some closely guarded ASUS secret of something?
>
> Another mb did have a pic of the initial BIOS screen – very busy, but
> no info about the further menus available. It does say don't mess with
> it without an expert to hold your hand.
>

There is a proportionality between retail price and the
number of pages in the manual. Cheap=35 pages Stratospheric=200 pages

The way it works now with UEFI, is a number of motherboard models share
the same BIOS manual.

*******
Section 3.1 Page 61 of 80 of the PDF manual E21270_PRIME_Z790-A_WIFI_UM_V3_WEB.pdf [6,484,356 bytes]

( https://www.baeldung.com/linux/read-qr-codes Utility to use is mentioned )

WSL/WSLg (running in a Terminal in Windows 11 Home, D: is my scratch drive).

/mnt/d$ sudo apt install zbar-tools

/mnt/d$ zbarimg QRCode-test.bmp
QR-Code:https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/13MANUAL/PRIME_PROART_TUF_GAMING_INTEL_700_Series_BIOS_EM_WEB_EN.pdf
scanned 1 barcode symbols from 1 images in 0.01 seconds

That's what it takes to convert a QR code.
Find a utility. WSL is "various levels of pain in the ass"
to get running. For example, at one point there was
a claim "we've set it up for humans now", and my response
to that was "oh no you dinnit!". It was still a
shockingly bad experience. (There are necessary settings
in the BIOS, in Programs and Features:Windows Features,
potentially a driver, and so on.)

But in terms of time to do it, after shooting a screenshot
and editing off the material around the QR, the converter
didn't have a problem.

QR codes are interesting, in that they have redundancy.
You can rip about 25 percent of the image away, if it
was a sheet of paper, and it would still scan. There might
even be a simple CRC check as well. The tool could tell
you it's not able to convert, depending on what kind
of distortion is involved. Based on Carlos flatbed scanner
experience the other day, scanning paper copies of QR
might actually fail. Depends on just how defective the
scanner is that day. Cameras can have distortion too,
and need some compensation for the optics, to make
the resulting image square. On a smartphone, the tool doing
the reading and using the smartphone camera, is likely already
programmed with the details of the optical path. For
seamless conversion. Whereas if "Wally In Windows" is doing
it, nothing is prepared for Wally most of the time. Wally
has to be "smarter than the average bear" :-) Builds character.

Converting a PDF to an image, is relatively simple, and
not likely to ruin the "squareness" of everything. That's
why this worked for me.

Paul

On 3/29/2024 9:31 PM, crasso@nycap.rr.com wrote:

> I was kinda attracted to this pre-built
> https://www.newegg.com/yeyian-ypi-pg49kfc-47y1n-phoenix-glass/p/N82E16883630052?Item=N82E16883630052

Do any computer stores near you, do builds ?

Some, in the "services" section of their web site, have
prices such as

Price for basic hardware assembly: $100

Price for basic hardware assembly + Win11: $200

These are prices over material cost of the components.

Now, not all local computer stores are "reputable",
and this option only makes sense if you've done business
before with them, and they're "square dealers".

Mine for example, gives 30 days return on a certain
number of hardware types. Some items are "manufacturer
warranty only" kind of thing. I don't care, as long
as they tell me in advance what their policy is.

When a $60 HDD I bought, was DOA when I got it home,
there was no problem getting a swap for another one.
A lot less work than wrapping the stinker of a drive
up and shipping it back somewhere. That's my first DOA,
in over thirty hard drive purchases (and 100% of the
drives are supposed to be tested, too). The store no longer
sells big HDD, so the dinky drives are all they carry.

*******

In terms of core count, a 6C 12T is about as much as
basic Windows gets an advantage from. Some of the
6C 12T processors, are cooled by straight aluminum coolers
(no copper, not even any heatpipes). The processors
are relatively low power, because the clock rate best
case might only be 4.5GHz turbo.

Maybe gaming uses 8 cores.

Maybe compressing files with 7ZIP, uses (at most) 32 cores.

When you get a monster chip, those will throttle if
they get too hot. Now you need a $120.00 air cooler
or (if you listen to their advice), water cooling
for the new CPU. Using a decent cooler, allows
the closed loop cooling system to work in a stable
manner. The BIOS will adjust the fan speed for you.

When you do a build at a local computer store, they
should be able to print off various "levels" of
computers for you. An "email" PC. A "gamer" PC.
A "God" PC. Each with a different price. There is
some room for substitution, if you want a
different case. If you don't like their 850W PSU
choice, you may be able to select another brand.
The staff actually know which brands and units
have a high defect rate, and they might whisper
"don't take that one, we've got returns on those"
and they can help you pick a better one.

Nobody is going to cool VCore properly for you,
so you have to plan ahead and buy a case with the
room for experimentation. For low-power 6C 12T
systems, this would normally not be an issue.

The problem with "super-remote" hand-builds, is
the response you get when there is trouble. I've
talked to people who have been treated in an outrageous
manner before. It's not a pleasant topic.

There's a few pictures here, of builds.

https://www.microcenter.com/search/builds.aspx

Paul

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:42:52 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 3/29/2024 9:31 PM, crasso@nycap.rr.com wrote:
>
>> I was kinda attracted to this pre-built
>> https://www.newegg.com/yeyian-ypi-pg49kfc-47y1n-phoenix-glass/p/N82E16883630052?Item=N82E16883630052
>
>Do any computer stores near you, do builds ?

I've been meaning to check that, but have been too lazy. It's a small
town, only a couple of them. They don't advertise builds. And as yet I
don't really KNOW what I want yet.
>
>Some, in the "services" section of their web site, have
>prices such as
>
>Price for basic hardware assembly: $100
>
>Price for basic hardware assembly + Win11: $200
>
>These are prices over material cost of the components.
>
>Now, not all local computer stores are "reputable",
>and this option only makes sense if you've done business
>before with them, and they're "square dealers".
>
>Mine for example, gives 30 days return on a certain
>number of hardware types. Some items are "manufacturer
>warranty only" kind of thing. I don't care, as long
>as they tell me in advance what their policy is.
>
>When a $60 HDD I bought, was DOA when I got it home,
>there was no problem getting a swap for another one.
>A lot less work than wrapping the stinker of a drive
>up and shipping it back somewhere. That's my first DOA,
>in over thirty hard drive purchases (and 100% of the
>drives are supposed to be tested, too). The store no longer
>sells big HDD, so the dinky drives are all they carry.
>
>*******
>
>In terms of core count, a 6C 12T is about as much as
>basic Windows gets an advantage from. Some of the
>6C 12T processors, are cooled by straight aluminum coolers
>(no copper, not even any heatpipes). The processors
>are relatively low power, because the clock rate best
>case might only be 4.5GHz turbo.

6 cores 12 threads, thank you Google Search. I'm a bit nervous about
liquid cooling anyway. 4GHz sounds like a lot to me anyway. I'm
running a shade over 3GHz, I think. Though CPU-Z only shows core at a
little over 2. Abit has a Guru and let's you play with overclocking. I
blew the machine up multiple times and had to Restore before I finally
gave up on it. The 3.2GHz figure comes from that Guru.
>
>Maybe gaming uses 8 cores.

Solitaire is my game. Don't need a fancy graphics board either, but
putting it on the cpu chip makes me nervous. i'd rather replace a
board I think.
>
>Maybe compressing files with 7ZIP, uses (at most) 32 cores.
>
>When you get a monster chip, those will throttle if
>they get too hot. Now you need a $120.00 air cooler
>or (if you listen to their advice), water cooling
>for the new CPU. Using a decent cooler, allows
>the closed loop cooling system to work in a stable
>manner. The BIOS will adjust the fan speed for you.
>
>When you do a build at a local computer store, they
>should be able to print off various "levels" of
>computers for you. An "email" PC. A "gamer" PC.
>A "God" PC. Each with a different price. There is
>some room for substitution, if you want a
>different case. If you don't like their 850W PSU
>choice, you may be able to select another brand.
>The staff actually know which brands and units
>have a high defect rate, and they might whisper
>"don't take that one, we've got returns on those"
>and they can help you pick a better one.
>
>Nobody is going to cool VCore properly for you,
>so you have to plan ahead and buy a case with the
>room for experimentation. For low-power 6C 12T
>systems, this would normally not be an issue.

For years, I think back when my psu started going bad, I started
leaving the left side cover off, I'd have to hunt to find it now.
Replacement psu is 850watts. I learned here that they lose a bit of
power each year and did NOT want to replace it again.
Do you think with a more powerful cpu and a few on board ssds, would a
new build have to wear the side panel all the time or could I leave it
open to my computer room. I find it a great convenience not to have to
remove the damn panel all the time.
>
>The problem with "super-remote" hand-builds, is
>the response you get when there is trouble. I've
>talked to people who have been treated in an outrageous
>manner before. It's not a pleasant topic.
>
>There's a few pictures here, of builds.
>
>https://www.microcenter.com/search/builds.aspx

Hot damn! That last is going to keep me entertained for months.
Hopefully without hemmoraging my savings into NewEgg.
>
> Paul

On 3/30/2024 3:09 PM, crasso@nycap.rr.com wrote:
> For years, I think back when my psu started going bad, I started
> leaving the left side cover off, I'd have to hunt to find it now.
> Replacement psu is 850watts. I learned here that they lose a bit of
> power each year and did NOT want to replace it again.
> Do you think with a more powerful cpu and a few on board ssds, would a
> new build have to wear the side panel all the time or could I leave it
> open to my computer room. I find it a great convenience not to have to
> remove the damn panel all the time.

Not wanting to stray off of you OP, or hijack it, but this does bring a
question to mind. I have always been of the impression that one might
think it is going to get more air if the side covers is off, but in
reality this is not true. The fans are placed and the tower is built
with air holes with proper circulation in mind. It blows over the right
places.
Is it true that leaving them off, though appearing to open it up to more
air, in a way actually restricts air as you are no longer are really
taking advantage of the fan circulation as the designer intended? It's
kind of a pressure related question. If you increase area, the pressure
necessary to get any volume of movement would need to be greatly
increased. Since that is not happening, are you in effect losing
capacity from the fan?

--
Stand With Israel!

On 3/30/2024 4:09 PM, crasso@nycap.rr.com wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:42:52 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/29/2024 9:31 PM, crasso@nycap.rr.com wrote:
>>
>>> I was kinda attracted to this pre-built
>>> https://www.newegg.com/yeyian-ypi-pg49kfc-47y1n-phoenix-glass/p/N82E16883630052?Item=N82E16883630052
>>
>> Do any computer stores near you, do builds ?
>
> I've been meaning to check that, but have been too lazy. It's a small
> town, only a couple of them. They don't advertise builds. And as yet I
> don't really KNOW what I want yet.
>>
>> Some, in the "services" section of their web site, have
>> prices such as
>>
>> Price for basic hardware assembly: $100
>>
>> Price for basic hardware assembly + Win11: $200
>>
>> These are prices over material cost of the components.
>>
>> Now, not all local computer stores are "reputable",
>> and this option only makes sense if you've done business
>> before with them, and they're "square dealers".
>>
>> Mine for example, gives 30 days return on a certain
>> number of hardware types. Some items are "manufacturer
>> warranty only" kind of thing. I don't care, as long
>> as they tell me in advance what their policy is.
>>
>> When a $60 HDD I bought, was DOA when I got it home,
>> there was no problem getting a swap for another one.
>> A lot less work than wrapping the stinker of a drive
>> up and shipping it back somewhere. That's my first DOA,
>> in over thirty hard drive purchases (and 100% of the
>> drives are supposed to be tested, too). The store no longer
>> sells big HDD, so the dinky drives are all they carry.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> In terms of core count, a 6C 12T is about as much as
>> basic Windows gets an advantage from. Some of the
>> 6C 12T processors, are cooled by straight aluminum coolers
>> (no copper, not even any heatpipes). The processors
>> are relatively low power, because the clock rate best
>> case might only be 4.5GHz turbo.
>
> 6 cores 12 threads, thank you Google Search. I'm a bit nervous about
> liquid cooling anyway. 4GHz sounds like a lot to me anyway. I'm
> running a shade over 3GHz, I think. Though CPU-Z only shows core at a
> little over 2. Abit has a Guru and let's you play with overclocking. I
> blew the machine up multiple times and had to Restore before I finally
> gave up on it. The 3.2GHz figure comes from that Guru.
>>
>> Maybe gaming uses 8 cores.
>
> Solitaire is my game. Don't need a fancy graphics board either, but
> putting it on the cpu chip makes me nervous. i'd rather replace a
> board I think.
>>
>> Maybe compressing files with 7ZIP, uses (at most) 32 cores.
>>
>> When you get a monster chip, those will throttle if
>> they get too hot. Now you need a $120.00 air cooler
>> or (if you listen to their advice), water cooling
>> for the new CPU. Using a decent cooler, allows
>> the closed loop cooling system to work in a stable
>> manner. The BIOS will adjust the fan speed for you.
>>
>> When you do a build at a local computer store, they
>> should be able to print off various "levels" of
>> computers for you. An "email" PC. A "gamer" PC.
>> A "God" PC. Each with a different price. There is
>> some room for substitution, if you want a
>> different case. If you don't like their 850W PSU
>> choice, you may be able to select another brand.
>> The staff actually know which brands and units
>> have a high defect rate, and they might whisper
>> "don't take that one, we've got returns on those"
>> and they can help you pick a better one.
>>
>> Nobody is going to cool VCore properly for you,
>> so you have to plan ahead and buy a case with the
>> room for experimentation. For low-power 6C 12T
>> systems, this would normally not be an issue.
>
> For years, I think back when my psu started going bad, I started
> leaving the left side cover off, I'd have to hunt to find it now.
> Replacement psu is 850watts. I learned here that they lose a bit of
> power each year and did NOT want to replace it again.
> Do you think with a more powerful cpu and a few on board ssds, would a
> new build have to wear the side panel all the time or could I leave it
> open to my computer room. I find it a great convenience not to have to
> remove the damn panel all the time.
>>
>> The problem with "super-remote" hand-builds, is
>> the response you get when there is trouble. I've
>> talked to people who have been treated in an outrageous
>> manner before. It's not a pleasant topic.
>>
>> There's a few pictures here, of builds.
>>
>> https://www.microcenter.com/search/builds.aspx
>
> Hot damn! That last is going to keep me entertained for months.
> Hopefully without hemmoraging my savings into NewEgg.
>>
>> Paul

You can leave the side off if you want.

But you have to think a bit about how things work, and
what the box needs.

The big heatsink on the CPU, leaves a cloud of warm air
near its exhaust side. If the air is ingested by the big CPU
cooler, then the CPU does not get quite as much cooling.
There will only be a big cloud of hot air, if you run 7ZIP
compression on some files. Your cooling system should always
be ready to handle max load (like, when you are away from
your desk and it is still running).

One objective then, is to move the cloud out of the way.

A way of doing that, is mounting a fan in the slot area,
blowing upwards, to disturb the cloud and blow it out
of the box near the top. One problem with mounting a
fan in that orientation, is that is hard on the bearing.
I wore out the previous cloud-remover, and had to replace
it with... more fans. The side is still off the case.

The hard drives need cooling. When I use HDD, they have a
private fan of their very own. This is to avoid surprises.
The SATA SSD sitting next to me, has no cooling. With
enough effort, you can take the chill off it, but it's not
really a thermal villain.

If I had an NVMe loaded, I don't have a blow-down cooler
on the CPU, so it does not get too much air. If the sled
was a PCIe Rev5 one, at 14000 MB/sec, then I would have to
look at cooling it. The controller chip would likely get
hot on that, as it does not appear that PCIe Rev5 logic
blocks are cool running. (The motherboard can also have
a regenerator, between CPU and NVMe slot, because signal
loss on Rev5 is pretty high when traveling through FR4 PCB
material. At work, we used to fix this with exotic
materials like Teflon dielectric on select layers.)

I did start with a blow-down cooler, a Noctua NH-C14S,
but that was a flop, because it just didn't have the
legs for a 224W CPU. I got a DeepCool AK620 Zero Dark
to replace it (rather than yet another Noctua equivalent),
a cooler with two fans, but it blows sideways and doesn't
cool things like my NVMe sled. I wanted some surface cooling,
like the VCore heatsinks, but the airflow wasn't there
for that using the Noctua. Changing out the fan, I could
have pushed more air through it.

https://www.deepcool.com/products/Cooling/cpuaircoolers/AK620-ZERO-DARK-High-Performance-CPU-Cooler-1700-AM5/2022/16124.shtml

[only some popup text says "260 watts" -- they're shy about anyone catching them]

I would prefer a theta-R rating for a cooler, rather
than these silly "watt ratings", because a watt rating
does not tell you what temperature the CPU hit
at 260W. Initially I did not believe a cooler this
small volumetrically, could cool that much power,
but it does seem to do a good job (224W at 60C or so).
At 260W, the CPU temperature would be getting up there,
but still not throttling. The Noctua C14S was only
about a 150W or so cooler, and it just wasn't quite
enough.

The exhaust fan on your case, could easily remove the
cloud, with out resorting to a "blow-upwards" fan as
a solution. The case I'm using, is from the year 2000, and
has a removable tray. And I like doing builds and just
flipping them into place with the tray... regardless
of how poor the cooling holes on the case are. If
I was using one of my Antec Sonata cases, those have
good sized holes on the back for exhaust. Your builder
would fit an exhaust fan, pretty well out of force of habit.

Since you don't need graphics at the moment, you can use the
integrated graphics. The motherboard should have one HDMI
and one DP connector hole.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark.html

On Thu, March 28, 2024, crasso wrote:

> Windows11 will not tolerate my motherboard because it lacks that chip.
> I suspect this old machine and Win10 will outlive me

That's Micro$oft for you. You will probably not not have that problem with
the most recent version of a good Linux distribution.

Mark

On 3/31/2024 5:45 AM, Mark Z wrote:
> On Thu, March 28, 2024, crasso wrote:
>
>> Windows11 will not tolerate my motherboard because it lacks that chip.
>> I suspect this old machine and Win10 will outlive me
>
> That's Micro$oft for you. You will probably not not have that problem with
> the most recent version of a good Linux distribution.
>
> Mark
>

The check for a TPM is done at install time.

During boot time, the OS is a lot more tolerant,
and effectively is running like Windows 10.

After WIndows 11 installer DVD checked for TPM, it
did not insist it be used. It couldn't, because
the BIOS setting had Secure Boot disabled :-)
Secure Boot is disabled, in order that I be able
to "run anything".

This USB preparation tool (ISO to USB stick) has
four tick boxes late in the setup, and one of them
defeats some of the hardware checks.

https://rufus.ie/en/

The problem with that, is when the next Upgrade install
comes in, it will fail to work, and then, you just
install with another Rufus. I have not been testing
continuous Rufus installation steps, to see that
everything works properly. But in principle, doing
a Repair Install with 24H2 when it arrives, should
Upgrade over the previous Rufus if used.

But that's basically one aspect of getting around the issue.

Linux too supports TPM and Secure Boot and uses a signed
shim to piggy back off the Microsoft setup. This presumably
avoids the need to mess with the MOK or other items on
that page in the BIOS. At one time on Ubuntu, we used to
get a "scary dialog to go right now to MOK and mess around".
Nope, not doing that, thanks. The distros have also stopped
doing that. And a new approach is being used in its place.

Even though I have two TPMs and I am running Windows 11 Home,
Secure Boot is not enabled and neither TPM is being used.
I don't use Bitlocker

manage-bde -status

Size: 682.04 GB
BitLocker Version: None
Conversion Status: Fully Decrypted
Percentage Encrypted: 0.0%
Encryption Method: None
Protection Status: Protection Off
Lock Status: Unlocked
Identification Field: None
Automatic Unlock: Disabled
Key Protectors: None Found <=== keeping a Bitlocker key inside a TPM

My TPM passed the install test, but has not been used since.
Neither do I use the TPM for Linux boot drives on this machine.

A Windows 10 or Windows 11 disk drive can be moved between
machines. This is unlike Win2K or WinXP, which would become
wobbly if you did that. But I don't know how the license
status field is handled when you do that. All I know is,
when I've done that by accident, there was no permanent damage.
Undoubtedly that leaves a bit of a mess in the Registry (ENUM section).

But generally speaking, the situation has a degree of tolerance
unlike the Microsoft of the past.

Paul