The next conference call for the Open Source on OpenVMS community is
scheduled for Thursday, 16 September at 08:00 EDT.
Brett Cameron, VMS Software Inc. Chief Solutions Officer, will be joining us
to discuss recent open source releases as well as upcoming packages. We
will also discuss and explore with Brett how the Open Source On OpenVMS
community can get involved with efforts in this arena. Over the past few
years Bill Pedersen has worked with VSI and Brett providing insight and
demonstrable technology in the porting of the most recent versions of Samba
and soon to be available PostgreSQL I64.
This conference call is hosted, courtesy of Jouk Jansen on
<https://gavotte.nano.tudelft.nl:8443/OpenVMS> Jitsi.
You can review prior call here
<https://sourceforge.net/p/vms-ports/discussion/call_topics/> .
We hope to have your involvement and participation!!!
Thank you!
Best,
Bill.
Bill Pedersen
864 490 8863

In article <mailman.5.1631235599.20579.info-vax_rbnsn.com@rbnsn.com>,
<pedersen@ccsscorp.com> writes:

> The next conference call for the Open Source on OpenVMS community is
> scheduled for Thursday, 16 September at 08:00 EDT.

> We hope to have your involvement and participation!!!

I hope to find the time to participate more in the future, not just in
the conference call but also actually doing something.

Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
huge number of people. Much of it was developed on VMS. (Leslie
Lamport wrote it while at DEC, but perhaps in Tops-20 and not VMS. In
any case, along with (UN)ZIP it is one of the most portable programs.)
It is still under active development and, amazingly, is better at many
things than more modern software. I'm still using a [TEXMF...] tree
put together by Ralf Gärtner from a freeware disk from a quarter of a
century ago. From time to time I've added some missing packages and so
on, and it is good enough. However, it would be nice to be able to
easily update it, or even do a fresh install.

Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.

Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <mailman.5.1631235599.20579.info-vax_rbnsn.com@rbnsn.com>,
> <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> writes:
>
>> The next conference call for the Open Source on OpenVMS community is
>> scheduled for Thursday, 16 September at 08:00 EDT.
>
>> We hope to have your involvement and participation!!!
>
> I hope to find the time to participate more in the future, not just in
> the conference call but also actually doing something.
>
> Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
> huge number of people. Much of it was developed on VMS. (Leslie
> Lamport wrote it while at DEC, but perhaps in Tops-20 and not VMS. In
> any case, along with (UN)ZIP it is one of the most portable programs.)
> It is still under active development and, amazingly, is better at many
> things than more modern software. I'm still using a [TEXMF...] tree
> put together by Ralf Gärtner from a freeware disk from a quarter of a
> century ago. From time to time I've added some missing packages and so
> on, and it is good enough. However, it would be nice to be able to
> easily update it, or even do a fresh install.
>
> Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
> distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
> a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
> be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.
>
Good idea Phillip. Texlive on OpenVMS would be best, since than it will
be "compatible" with linux systems and one will be able to exchange all
documents.Writing documents is always collaborating with others
(probably not on OpenVMS)

Hope to "see" you next thursday.

Jouk

In article <shf7r3$14pf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Joukj
<joukj@hrem.nano.tudelft.nl> writes:

> > Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
> > distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
> > a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
> > be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.
> >
> Good idea Phillip. Texlive on OpenVMS would be best, since than it will
> be "compatible" with linux systems

I looked at this a while back and seemed to remember that various GNU
utilities were used for packaging and so on. Probably most of those
(and other non-GNU third-party stuff such as (UN)ZIP) run on VMS, so I
don't think that it is a big problem. Disk are cheap these days, so it
shouldn't be a problem to have the whole distribution locally. It is
pruned down to fit on a DVD, though; there is more at CTAN (mostly
documentation and fonts which most users don't need). Apparently there
are some low-bandwidth users who prefer the DVD rather than downloading
from CTAN.

> and one will be able to exchange all
> documents.Writing documents is always collaborating with others
> (probably not on OpenVMS)

Once LaTeX is up and running on VMS, compatibility is not a problem.
I've been using LaTeX on VMS for almost 30 years and it is no problem to
process a document from elsewhere or have someone process my documents.
I convert to PostScript then to PDF and both of those are portable
formats. So both input and output formats are portable. The problem is
an inital install on VMS, and some sort of automatic update. The
freeware CD with [TEXMF...] put together by Ralf Gärtner might be a good
starting point.

One caveat is that TeX has now forked and there are various versions
(though not allowed to be called TeX). One has better justification.
(Knuth's---good---idea was that a given input document should always
produce identical output with TeX, which is why some variations can't be
called TeX). One allows UTF-8 input characters. That might be a
problem on VMS. DEC MCS is pretty close, but probably not close enough.
But the conventional TeX with only 7-bit-ASCII input is still supported.

On 9/10/2021 12:40 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <mailman.5.1631235599.20579.info-vax_rbnsn.com@rbnsn.com>,
> <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> writes:
>> The next conference call for the Open Source on OpenVMS community is
>> scheduled for Thursday, 16 September at 08:00 EDT.
>
>> We hope to have your involvement and participation!!!
>
> I hope to find the time to participate more in the future, not just in
> the conference call but also actually doing something.
>
> Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
> huge number of people.

Depends on what you consider huge number.

There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.

But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
Google Docs etc..

> Much of it was developed on VMS. (Leslie
> Lamport wrote it while at DEC, but perhaps in Tops-20 and not VMS. In
> any case, along with (UN)ZIP it is one of the most portable programs.)
> It is still under active development and, amazingly, is better at many
> things than more modern software. I'm still using a [TEXMF...] tree
> put together by Ralf Gärtner from a freeware disk from a quarter of a
> century ago. From time to time I've added some missing packages and so
> on, and it is good enough. However, it would be nice to be able to
> easily update it, or even do a fresh install.
>
> Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
> distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
> a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
> be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.

Pascal or C version of the tools?

Arne

In article <shfk82$1fce$1@gioia.aioe.org>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajh�j)
wrote:
> On 9/10/2021 12:40 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> > Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
> > by a huge number of people.
>
> Depends on what you consider huge number.
>
> There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
> universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
>
> But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
> Google Docs etc..

Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.

John

In article <shfk82$1fce$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
<arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:

> > Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
> > huge number of people.
>
> Depends on what you consider huge number.
>
> There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
> universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.

True. However, probably more people use LaTeX than, say, Python.

> > Two approaches are worth considering. One would be getting the TeXLive
> > distribution to build out of the box on VMS. The other would be to have
> > a minimal distribution which would automatically fetch anything found to
> > be missing from a CTAN mirror somewhere.
>
> Pascal or C version of the tools?

I think that the C version of TeX is officially compatible to the
original. On the other hand, on VMS there is no reason not to use
Pascal.

In article <memo.20210910204720.9608F@jgd.cix.co.uk>, jgd@cix.co.uk
(John Dallman) writes:

> > > Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
> > > by a huge number of people.
> >
> > Depends on what you consider huge number.
> >
> > There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
> > universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
> >
> > But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
> > Google Docs etc..
>
> Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
> substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.

Indeed.

On 9/10/21 3:46 PM, John Dallman wrote:
> In article <shfk82$1fce$1@gioia.aioe.org>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
> wrote:
>> On 9/10/2021 12:40 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
>>> by a huge number of people.
>>
>> Depends on what you consider huge number.
>>
>> There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
>> universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
>>
>> But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
>> Google Docs etc..
>
> Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
> substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.

Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS.
And updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.

bill

Den 2021-09-11 kl. 14:27, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
> On 9/10/21 3:46 PM, John Dallman wrote:
>> In article <shfk82$1fce$1@gioia.aioe.org>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
>> wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2021 12:40 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>> Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
>>>> by a huge number of people.
>>>
>>> Depends on what you consider huge number.
>>>
>>> There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
>>> universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
>>>
>>> But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
>>> Google Docs etc..
>>
>> Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
>> substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
>
> Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS. And
> updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
> VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.
>
> bill
>

My *guess* is that there are way better and more efficient LaTeX tools
available for common desktop systems today, Windows, Linux or some Mac.
More then 99% of the LaTeX users probably have one of these already.

I have a very hard time seing why LaTeX should have any priority for VMS.

In article <iq3lmfFjiduU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:

> >>> Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
> >>> by a huge number of people.
> >>
> >> Depends on what you consider huge number.
> >>
> >> There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
> >> universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
> >>
> >> But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
> >> Google Docs etc..
> >
> > Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
> > substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
>
> Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS.
> And updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
> VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.

Well, I still use it. I'm probably not the only one, but I agree, VMS
is rare in academia these days.

One reason DEC was so successful back in the day is because it was
present in academia. Maybe VSI should try to get that market back, or
at least expand what is left of it by a significant factor.

Alternatively, modern LaTeX on VMS would make it easier for non-academic
users to use LaTeX.

In article <shi7uf$3h1$1@dont-email.me>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=c3=b6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>
writes:

> My *guess* is that there are way better and more efficient LaTeX tools
> available for common desktop systems today, Windows, Linux or some Mac.
> More then 99% of the LaTeX users probably have one of these already.

Not tools, just LaTeX itself. EDT is fine as an editor. :-)

> I have a very hard time seing why LaTeX should have any priority for VMS.

It doesn't have to have a priority, but it would be relatively easy to
do.

On 9/11/21 8:54 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <iq3lmfFjiduU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>>> Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used
>>>>> by a huge number of people.
>>>>
>>>> Depends on what you consider huge number.
>>>>
>>>> There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
>>>> universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
>>>>
>>>> But there are billions of people using MS Office, LibreOffice,
>>>> Google Docs etc..
>>>
>>> Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
>>> substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
>>
>> Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS.
>> And updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
>> VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.
>
> Well, I still use it. I'm probably not the only one, but I agree, VMS
> is rare in academia these days.

And what part of academia are you in? Does your University have VMS
machines in its data center? I used VMS right up until the pushed me
out the door at my University. Sadly, that did not constitute use
of VMS in academia.

>
> One reason DEC was so successful back in the day is because it was
> present in academia. Maybe VSI should try to get that market back, or
> at least expand what is left of it by a significant factor.

Snowballs chance in hell. What possible reason would they have to go
back to VMS now? What academic tools (SPSS, Matlab, etc.) are even
still available on VMS? The days of Professors writting their own
applications iun Fortran and Pascal are long past.

>
> Alternatively, modern LaTeX on VMS would make it easier for non-academic
> users to use LaTeX.
>

Why on earth would any non-academic want to use Latex? A more likely
scenario is that academia will stop requiring Latex and go with DOCX
like everyone else in the world.

bill

In article <iq3o6bFk2mqU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:

> >>> Pick the low-hanging fruit first? Getting LaTeX going will be
> >>> substantially simpler than porting Libre Office or a full-fat web browser.
> >>
> >> Only real problem with that is no one in academia is still using VMS.
> >> And updating Tex/LaTex (yes, updating as it was always available on
> >> VMS in the past) is not going to bring anyone back.
> >
> > Well, I still use it. I'm probably not the only one, but I agree, VMS
> > is rare in academia these days.
>
> And what part of academia are you in? Does your University have VMS
> machines in its data center? I used VMS right up until the pushed me
> out the door at my University. Sadly, that did not constitute use
> of VMS in academia.

I consider myself part of academia, but use VMS at home. :-)

> Why on earth would any non-academic want to use Latex?

Because it's better.

> A more likely
> scenario is that academia will stop requiring Latex and go with DOCX
> like everyone else in the world.

Unlikely. At least in some fields, essentially all articles are written
in LaTeX.

On 9/11/2021 6:55 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <shfk82$1fce$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
>>> huge number of people.
>>
>> Depends on what you consider huge number.
>>
>> There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
>> universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
>
> True. However, probably more people use LaTeX than, say, Python.

Not likely.

Number of Python developers is usually estimated around 10 million.

Arne

On 2021-09-11, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 9/11/2021 6:55 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <shfk82$1fce$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> Something to think about: LaTeX and associated software is used by a
>>>> huge number of people.
>>>
>>> Depends on what you consider huge number.
>>>
>>> There must be hundreds of thousands of people using Tex/LaTex at
>>> universities particular at math and natural sciences departments.
>>
>> True. However, probably more people use LaTeX than, say, Python.
>
> Not likely.
>
> Number of Python developers is usually estimated around 10 million.
>

And to expand on that, there are a lot more people using Python than
some people might think because Python is used as the scripting language
in a number of major applications.

These applications have a scripting language built in to allow automation
of some functionality and to allow people to add new features to the
application.

For example, one such major application is Blender:

https://docs.blender.org/api/current/info_overview.html

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:10:38 AM UTC+12, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> A more likely scenario is that academia will stop requiring Latex and go with DOCX
> like everyone else in the world.

Please, not that nonstandard “standard” that is ISO 29500 that nobody is actually able to implement correctly, not even Microsoft!

Jupyter notebooks are quite popular in certain circles, as a teaching and research tool. They have in-built interactivity, and do a decent rendition of mathematical formulas, as well as embedding of other media types. And they can include code in a range of languages, not just Python.

In article <27cfa04d-87e7-480e-b4ff-1348aecb7f31n@googlegroups.com>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Lawrence_D'Oliveiro?= <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:10:38 AM UTC+12, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > A more likely scenario is that academia will stop requiring Latex and go
> with DOCX
> > like everyone else in the world.
>
> Please, not that nonstandard \_standard_/ that is ISO 29500
> that nobody is actually able to implement correctly, not even Microsoft!

I seriously doubt that many fields of academia (physics, maths, etc.)
will abandon LaTeX for DOCX.