Good day,
Hived off from the PrintPDF thread...

I selected one small item (!FontMenu) to work on from the updated list,
and singularly that downloaded and installed on this VRPC-DL RISC OS 6.20
machine to HostFS::HardDisc4.$.Apps.Font without any errors.

As noted in the other place, I have a couple of questions. :-)

Q1:

Where is the configuration that gives me a writable into which I can
specify the directory I want the item(s) installed?

Q2:
I do not *ever* want this app to install anything anywhere other than the
place I configure it to be done in.?

Q3:
That means *Never Ever* in "HostFS::HardDisc4.$.Apps."

Thanks :-)

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

In message <59daec6c70dave@triffid.co.uk>
on 18 Apr 2022 Dave wrote:

> I selected one small item (!FontMenu) to work on from the updated list, and
> singularly that downloaded and installed on this VRPC-DL RISC OS 6.20
> machine to HostFS::HardDisc4.$.Apps.Font without any errors.
>
> As noted in the other place, I have a couple of questions. :-)
>
> Q1:
>
> Where is the configuration that gives me a writable into which I can
> specify the directory I want the item(s) installed?

Not all packages can be configured like this. It depends on whether the
package maintainer has indicated that the applications are safe to move from
their default locations. In this case, the package maintainer has not
flagged !FontMenu as safe to move.

You can tell this because when you double click on the package in PackMan, no
components are shown in the area just above the Install button, and when you
click to Install, the next window shows "No configurable components".

Bu contrast, try FTPc. You will see that in both dialogue boxes something
appears in the components area, and in the Install window you have an area
showing "Boot options" and an icon you can drag to define the location it
should be installed to. If a package has several components they can often
be dragged individually to different locations.

> Q2: I do not *ever* want this app to install anything anywhere other than
> the place I configure it to be done in.?

I understand that sentiment. I quite agree! Fortunately the packages I've
tried installing have all allowed me to move them during the installation
process.

The original packaging system insisted on everything going in subdirectories
of Apps. A packaging system has to know where everything is so that it can
be updated and uninstalled when required, and the original tools took the
easy approach of forcing eveyrthing to be in particular locations. This
affected uptake of the system as a lot of users did not like that. Alan
Buckley has put in a lot of work to make the system more flexible, and I
think it will now suit a lot more people. It does depend on the packages
being constructed properly though. This is because for some packages they
really do have to go in particular places if they are going to work.

An email to the package maintainer for FontMenu (Richard Swetman - his
details can be seen by double-clicking the package) might deal with the issue
for FontMenu. He may have just failed to specify the fact that the
application is safe to move when he created the package. I made this mistake
for one or two of the packages I was creating over the weekend, but I spotted
it before I released them.

Hope that helps explain it!

--
Matthew Phillips
Durham

In message <1a35f4da59.Matthew@sinenomine.co.uk>
Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <59daec6c70dave@triffid.co.uk>
> on 18 Apr 2022 Dave wrote:
[snip]

> > Q2: I do not *ever* want this app to install anything anywhere other
> > than the place I configure it to be done in.?
>
> I understand that sentiment. I quite agree! Fortunately the packages
> I've tried installing have all allowed me to move them during the
> installation process.
[snip]

For this reason I thought I might start using PackMan as it seems to be
being pushed and does announce updates. My experience was that it still
leaves abandoned directories in $.Apps.

If Apps was intended as a dump for any application that didn't have a
fixed home, why have the 'Add to Apps' config?

In article <1a35f4da59.Matthew@sinenomine.co.uk>,
Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <59daec6c70dave@triffid.co.uk>
> on 18 Apr 2022 Dave wrote:

> > I selected one small item (!FontMenu) to work on from the updated
> > list, and singularly that downloaded and installed on this VRPC-DL
> > RISC OS 6.20 machine to HostFS::HardDisc4.$.Apps.Font without any
> > errors.
> >
> > As noted in the other place, I have a couple of questions. :-)
> >
> > Q1:
> >
> > Where is the configuration that gives me a writable into which I can
> > specify the directory I want the item(s) installed?

> Not all packages can be configured like this. It depends on whether the
> package maintainer has indicated that the applications are safe to move
> from their default locations. In this case, the package maintainer has
> not flagged !FontMenu as safe to move.

> You can tell this because when you double click on the package in
> PackMan, no components are shown in the area just above the Install
> button, and when you click to Install, the next window shows "No
> configurable components".

> By contrast, try FTPc. You will see that in both dialogue boxes
> something appears in the components area, and in the Install window you
> have an area showing "Boot options" and an icon you can drag to define
> the location it should be installed to. If a package has several
> components they can often be dragged individually to different locations.

I've noted what you've written and that does indeed work as you describe.

Shame that the same can't be done with singular Apps like FontMenu.

> > Q2: I do not *ever* want this app to install anything anywhere other
> > than the place I configure it to be done in.?

> I understand that sentiment. I quite agree! Fortunately the packages
> I've tried installing have all allowed me to move them during the
> installation process.

> The original packaging system insisted on everything going in
> subdirectories of Apps. A packaging system has to know where everything
> is so that it can be updated and uninstalled when required, and the
> original tools took the easy approach of forcing eveyrthing to be in
> particular locations. This affected uptake of the system as a lot of
> users did not like that. Alan Buckley has put in a lot of work to make
> the system more flexible, and I think it will now suit a lot more
> people. It does depend on the packages being constructed properly
> though. This is because for some packages they really do have to go in
> particular places if they are going to work.

> An email to the package maintainer for FontMenu (Richard Swetman - his
> details can be seen by double-clicking the package) might deal with the
> issue for FontMenu. He may have just failed to specify the fact that
> the application is safe to move when he created the package. I made
> this mistake for one or two of the packages I was creating over the
> weekend, but I spotted it before I released them.

> Hope that helps explain it!

Thank you for the above Matthew, it does indeed explain a lot.

FontMenu is really neither here nor there, I just picked on that to
download as a test...

Dave :-)

--

Dave Triffid

In message <mpro.rajf5u007e59400js@ypical.nospam.invalid>
on 18 Apr 2022 Frederick Bambrough wrote:

> For this reason I thought I might start using PackMan as it seems to be
> being pushed and does announce updates. My experience was that it still
> leaves abandoned directories in $.Apps.

I tried installing FontMenu earlier, which was forced into Apps.Fonts. After
removing it again via PackMan, the Fonts directory was deleted again, so it
certainly cleans up in some circumstances.

> If Apps was intended as a dump for any application that didn't have a
> fixed home, why have the 'Add to Apps' config?

There is a difference between Apps the directory on the hard drive and
Resources:$.Apps which is the virtual filesystem you access from Apps on the
iconbar.

In the standard boot sequence all applications in the immediate Apps
directory on the hard drive (but not its subdirectories) are added to
Resources:$.Apps and the user can choose to add other applications to
Resources:$.Apps which can be stored anywhere on the hard drive (or on other
filing systems). At various stages in RISC OS history some of the bundled
applcations have been ROM-based, and so !Edit, !Paint and !Draw were among
those applications appearing in Resources:$.Apps but when supplied in ROM
they will not have been anywhere on the hard drive.

The original instigator of the packaging project clearly felt that putting
everything in the Apps directory on the hard drive was the tidiest way to
keep things under control, but this ignored the fact that Acorn-issued hard
disc arrangements had for a long while had a number of other directories,
like Diversions, Printing, Utilities and users had followed suit and created
more.

On a Linux system, where packaging was first popularised, the packages get
installed in fixed locations, in fact in areas that cannot be written to
by the ordinary user. This makes it much easier for the packaging tools and
means there is much less risk of confusion.

--
Matthew Phillips
Durham

In message <6cb93bdb59.Matthew@sinenomine.co.uk>
Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <mpro.rajf5u007e59400js@ypical.nospam.invalid>
> on 18 Apr 2022 Frederick Bambrough wrote:
>
> > For this reason I thought I might start using PackMan as it seems to
> > be being pushed and does announce updates. My experience was that it
> > still leaves abandoned directories in $.Apps.
>
> I tried installing FontMenu earlier, which was forced into Apps.Fonts.
> After removing it again via PackMan, the Fonts directory was deleted
> again, so it certainly cleans up in some circumstances.
[snip]

I found that PackMan created the empty directories in $.Apps when
configured to install an application elsewhere.

In message <mpro.rak1pi00425vb014x@ypical.nospam.invalid>
Frederick Bambrough <freddie@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

> In message <6cb93bdb59.Matthew@sinenomine.co.uk>
> Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>> In message <mpro.rajf5u007e59400js@ypical.nospam.invalid>
>> on 18 Apr 2022 Frederick Bambrough wrote:
>>
>>> For this reason I thought I might start using PackMan as it seems to
>>> be being pushed and does announce updates. My experience was that it
>>> still leaves abandoned directories in $.Apps.
>>
>> I tried installing FontMenu earlier, which was forced into Apps.Fonts.
>> After removing it again via PackMan, the Fonts directory was deleted
>> again, so it certainly cleans up in some circumstances.
> [snip]

> I found that PackMan created the empty directories in $.Apps when
> configured to install an application elsewhere.

Has this issue been reported to the Packman developer? Its could be a bug
that not been reported by anyone yet.

If people do not report issue to the developers, they they don't get
fixed.

--
Chris Hughes
Don't miss this years Wakefield Show 21st May 2022 - we have move to
Cedar Court Hotel, Bradford
check the latest information at www.wakefieldshow.org.uk

In message <e8d97fdb59.chris@mytarbis.plus.com>
on 19 Apr 2022 Chris Hughes wrote:

> In message <mpro.rak1pi00425vb014x@ypical.nospam.invalid>
> Frederick Bambrough <freddie@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
>
> > I found that PackMan created the empty directories in $.Apps when
> > configured to install an application elsewhere.
>
> Has this issue been reported to the Packman developer? Its could be a bug
> that not been reported by anyone yet.
>
> If people do not report issue to the developers, they they don't get
> fixed.

I emailed Alan yesterday. He responded pretty quickly about another issue I
had noticed.

--
Matthew Phillips
Durham