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computers / news.admin.hierarchies / microsoft.* hierarchy

SubjectAuthor
* microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE
+* Re: microsoft.* hierarchyRuss Allbery
|`* Re: microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE
| +* Re: microsoft.* hierarchyRuss Allbery
| |`- Re: microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE
| +* Re: microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE
| |+* Re: microsoft.* hierarchybje
| ||`- Re: microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE
| |`- Re: microsoft.* hierarchyRuss Allbery
| `* Re: microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE
|  `* Re: microsoft.* hierarchyAdam H. Kerman
|   `* Re: microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE
|    `* Re: microsoft.* hierarchyAdam H. Kerman
|     +- Re: microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE
|     `- Re: microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE
`* Re: microsoft.* hierarchyRink
 `- Re: microsoft.* hierarchyJulien_ÉLIE

1
Subject: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:31 UTC
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.niel.me!news.gegeweb.eu!gegeweb.org!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.176.143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 12:31:05 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:31:10 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: news.trigofacile.com; posting-account="julien"; posting-host="176.143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr:176.143.2.105";
logging-data="10178"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@trigofacile.com"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0
X-Mozilla-News-Host: snews://news.individual.net:563
Content-Language: fr
View all headers
Hi all,

As we speak of historic hierarchies (net.*), the microsoft.* one has also been stalled since 2009 when the msnews.microsoft.com server was shut down.
Nonetheless, the newsgroups are still in the wide, and some of them are active.
So maybe microsoft.* should remain in control.ctl but the comment adapted?


# Control articles for that hierarchy are not issued by Microsoft itself
# but by a Usenet active participant in order to improve the quality of
# the propagation of Microsoft newsgroups.  Their official URL is:
# http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/list/en-us/default.aspx

=> I suggest to make it unmanaged and remove PGP key & administrative stuff.  Unless someone has a better advice about that?

Web forums https://answers.microsoft.com/ are now used by Microsoft.

I doubt the PGP key will ever serve again.  Its purpose was to propagate changes made to the official newsgroups from msnews.microsoft.com.

I still have the private key, though, and will consider deleting it.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Open the black window and type text, to fix the network. »


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 03:05 UTC
References: 1
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 20:05:30 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87zgvar8n9.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: hope.eyrie.org;
logging-data="23059"; mail-complaints-to="news@eyrie.org"
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:BtJnuczMVIPiDSx8Gt+7ePxttXw=
View all headers
Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

As we speak of historic hierarchies (net.*), the microsoft.* one has
also been stalled since 2009 when the msnews.microsoft.com server was
shut down.  Nonetheless, the newsgroups are still in the wide, and some
of them are active.  So maybe microsoft.* should remain in control.ctl
but the comment adapted?

# Control articles for that hierarchy are not issued by Microsoft itself
# but by a Usenet active participant in order to improve the quality of
# the propagation of Microsoft newsgroups.  Their official URL is:
# http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/list/en-us/default.aspx

=> I suggest to make it unmanaged and remove PGP key & administrative
stuff.  Unless someone has a better advice about that?

Well, I think it's partly up to you whether you want to continue to
maintain the hierarchy.  If you don't, then making it unmanaged makes
sense, and I can understand why you may not want to take on management of
the hierarchy rather than just relaying Microsoft's group list.

That said, it's still in active use, so having a source of a canonical
group list is useful.  So would pruning out the groups that no one is
using if anyone felt like doing that.  Obviously, you don't have to take
that on and anyone who does that doesn't even need to use the same private
key (we can always update configurations later), but it might be an easier
transition to keep using the same one.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 19:25 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.176.143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 21:25:16 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <sbd7n2$fee$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<87zgvar8n9.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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Injection-Info: news.trigofacile.com; posting-account="julien"; posting-host="176.143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr:176.143.2.105";
logging-data="15822"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@trigofacile.com"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0
In-Reply-To: <87zgvar8n9.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
Content-Language: fr
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Hi Russ,

As we speak of historic hierarchies (net.*), the microsoft.* one has
also been stalled since 2009 when the msnews.microsoft.com server was
shut down.  Nonetheless, the newsgroups are still in the wide, and some
of them are active.  So maybe microsoft.* should remain in control.ctl
but the comment adapted?

# Control articles for that hierarchy are not issued by Microsoft itself
# but by a Usenet active participant in order to improve the quality of
# the propagation of Microsoft newsgroups.  Their official URL is:
# http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/list/en-us/default.aspx

=> I suggest to make it unmanaged and remove PGP key & administrative
stuff.  Unless someone has a better advice about that?

Well, I think it's partly up to you whether you want to continue to
maintain the hierarchy.  If you don't, then making it unmanaged makes
sense, and I can understand why you may not want to take on management of
the hierarchy rather than just relaying Microsoft's group list.

I have not sent any control message since 2009 for the microsoft.* hierarchy.  Major products like latest Windows 10, upcoming Windows 11, Office 365, Teams, Edge, etc. do not have their dedicated newsgroup.

Well, there are (at least) two choices:
- making the hierarchy unmanaged, without syncable server and PGP stuff, but of course still listing it in control.ctl and ftp.isc.org newsgroups file;
- trying to give it a new impulse and sending control messages to create newsgroups from the products seen in the new Microsoft Community web forums https://answers.microsoft.com/

For the second choice, it would need a bit of initial work to elaborate the list of such groups, and decide the languages for which to create them besides English.
And of course a bit of analysis too of the current newsgroups (which one are still active, in which language).  Some of them are no longer relevant and can be removed.

Maybe I could send a message in a few active newsgroups to probe what still existing users want.  The may already have an idea of useful newsgroups to create.

Surely a better strategy than giving up :-)
At least not before having tried something.



That said, it's still in active use, so having a source of a canonical
group list is useful.  So would pruning out the groups that no one is
using if anyone felt like doing that.  Obviously, you don't have to take
that on and anyone who does that doesn't even need to use the same private
key (we can always update configurations later), but it might be an easier
transition to keep using the same one.

Sounds good.  Using the same key seems better, though its initial goal changes from just syncing the Microsoft news server list.


P.-S.:  I wonder whether gnu.* couldn't similarly be checked and updated.  As well as perl.* or linux.* list of mailing-list gateways.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« I had some words with my wife, and she had some paragraphs with me. »
   (Sigmund Freud)


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 20:07 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 13:07:59 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <877didu50g.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<87zgvar8n9.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <sbd7n2$fee$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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logging-data="7048"; mail-complaints-to="news@eyrie.org"
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Cancel-Lock: sha1:zccMzE7Q5H4ekwFRu+DRNk1YlfY=
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Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

P.-S.:  I wonder whether gnu.* couldn't similarly be checked and
updated.  As well as perl.* or linux.* list of mailing-list gateways.

I think Marco still actively maintains linux.*, although I may be wrong.

perl.* and gnu.* used to be mailing list gateways (the latter used
Mailman), but I'm not sure if anyone kept that running.  gnu.* used to use
my news server but stopped a long time ago.  IIRC, mailing list senders
were complaining about getting spam and thought it was due to Usenet.

I created a key for gnu.* eons ago and was going to help maintain it, but
then never finished the project and it's long-since defunct.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:51 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.nntp4.net!news.gegeweb.eu!gegeweb.org!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.san13-h02-176-143-2-105.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:51:19 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <sbheqt$r0t$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<87zgvar8n9.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <sbd7n2$fee$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Injection-Info: news.trigofacile.com; posting-account="julien"; posting-host="san13-h02-176-143-2-105.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr:176.143.2.105";
logging-data="27677"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@trigofacile.com"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0
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Hi all,

- trying to give it a new impulse and sending control messages to create newsgroups from the products seen in the new Microsoft Community web forums https://answers.microsoft.com/

I'm wondering whether there couldn't be legal issues with that (maintaining a list of microsoft.public.* newsgroup names matching Microsoft products, now that the officiel msnews.microsoft.com server is no longer here).

Likewise, if someone pops up and maintain an apple.* hierarchy with Apple product names, I am unsure it will receive a great welcome when they hear of it.  Though I may be wrong about that.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Aliud est celare, aliud tacere. »


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: bje...@ripco.com
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Ripco Communications Inc.
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:14 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net!news.ripco.com!.POSTED.shell3.ripco.com!not-for-mail
From: bje...@ripco.com
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:14:46 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Ripco Communications Inc.
Message-ID: <sbhjn6$s25$1@remote6hme0.ripco.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com> <87zgvar8n9.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <sbd7n2$fee$1@news.trigofacile.com> <sbheqt$r0t$1@news.trigofacile.com>
Injection-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:14:46 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: remote6hme0.ripco.com; posting-host="shell3.ripco.com:66.146.219.74";
logging-data="28741"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@remote6hme0.ripco.com"
User-Agent: tin/2.4.2-20171224 ("Lochhead") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.10 (i86pc))
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Julien ?LIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:

I'm wondering whether there couldn't be legal issues with that
(maintaining a list of microsoft.public.* newsgroup names matching
Microsoft products, now that the officiel msnews.microsoft.com server is
no longer here).


For what it's worth, not exactly the same thing but close, years ago one of
our clients registered the domain name microsoftsucks.com or
microsoftsux.com and within 2 days of creation we received legal threats.

They were not from MS directly but some lawyer firm that claimed to handle
trademark enforcement on behalf of them.

What was odd was, they couldn't do anything about us owning the domain but
claimed any services (email, web site) that were created would bring down
the rath of Redmond upon us. So we could have the domain name, just couldn't
use it for anything.

So it sat here for years, more than a decade with an empty zone record.

So they do seem touchy about it.

-bruce
bje@ripco.com


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:05 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.niel.me!news.gegeweb.eu!gegeweb.org!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.176-143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:05:06 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <sbhmli$5c3$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<87zgvar8n9.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <sbd7n2$fee$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<sbheqt$r0t$1@news.trigofacile.com> <sbhjn6$s25$1@remote6hme0.ripco.com>
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logging-data="5507"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@trigofacile.com"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0
In-Reply-To: <sbhjn6$s25$1@remote6hme0.ripco.com>
Content-Language: fr
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Hi Bruce,

Julien ?LIE

Oh, another encoding issue :-)


I'm wondering whether there couldn't be legal issues with that
(maintaining a list of microsoft.public.* newsgroup names matching
Microsoft products, now that the officiel msnews.microsoft.com server is
no longer here).

For what it's worth, not exactly the same thing but close, years ago one of
our clients registered the domain name microsoftsucks.com or
microsoftsux.com and within 2 days of creation we received legal threats.

Thanks for your message.
It shows they are monitoring the use of their mark.


So they do seem touchy about it.

The difference here is that these domain names are defaming.  I don't know how sensitive they would be for a public Usenet apple.* hierarchy or for new microsoft.* newsgroups with Office365, Teams, Windows 11 names.
And moreover if they read offensive discussions in these (unmoderated) newsgroups.
One could argue there already are public web sites with similar forums; yet, moderation and removal of messages are possible in such centralized forums...

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Je ne voudrais tout de même pas que Cléopâtre m'ait dans le nez ! »
   (César)


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Rink
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:12 UTC
References: 1
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rink.hof...@planet.nl (Rink)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:12:11 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 58
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logging-data="20540"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18m2FldDwdaUn6eujEZFj5scGrbiBmC3p0="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
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Op 15-6-2021 om 12:31 schreef Julien ÉLIE:
Hi all,

As we speak of historic hierarchies (net.*), the microsoft.* one has also been stalled since 2009 when the msnews.microsoft.com server was shut down.
Nonetheless, the newsgroups are still in the wide, and some of them are active.
So maybe microsoft.* should remain in control.ctl but the comment adapted?


# Control articles for that hierarchy are not issued by Microsoft itself
# but by a Usenet active participant in order to improve the quality of
# the propagation of Microsoft newsgroups.  Their official URL is:
# http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/list/en-us/default.aspx

=> I suggest to make it unmanaged and remove PGP key & administrative stuff.  Unless someone has a better advice about that?

Web forums https://answers.microsoft.com/ are now used by Microsoft.

I doubt the PGP key will ever serve again.  Its purpose was to propagate changes made to the official newsgroups from msnews.microsoft.com.

I still have the private key, though, and will consider deleting it.





I do not understand what you suggest
(because I do not know enough about control.ctl, PGP, keys, unmanaged, etc.),
but I only want to say that the newsgroup
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
still is *THE* most busiest English language newsgroup about Windows-XP.

In 2021 per month: 100, 104, 86, 61, 315 messages.
In june 2021 already 298 messages.
Thousands of newsgroups will be jealous about those figures  :-)


I remember that I had installed the microsoft newsserver.
When they switched off, we simply followed all
microsoft.* newsgroups on other newsservers.
I thought it was in 2013, but Wikipedia says june 2010.

If I understand correctly, you want to introduce new microsoft.* newsgroups?

Main English language newsgroups for other Windows OS are:
alt.windows7.general
alt.comp.os.windows-8
alt.comp.os.windows-10

For me (and a lot of other people) webforums are no alternative to usenet.

Rink



Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 16:19 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.san13-h02-176-143-2-105.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:19:26 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <sbi5ie$o04$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com> <sbhn2u$k1s$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 16:19:26 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: news.trigofacile.com; posting-account="julien"; posting-host="san13-h02-176-143-2-105.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr:176.143.2.105";
logging-data="24580"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@trigofacile.com"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0
In-Reply-To: <sbhn2u$k1s$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: fr
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Hi Rink,

but I only want to say that the newsgroup
     microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
still is *THE* most busiest English language newsgroup about Windows-XP.

In 2021 per month: 100, 104, 86, 61, 315 messages.
In june 2021 already 298 messages.
Thousands of newsgroups will be jealous about those figures  :-)

Yup, the most active newsgroups over the last year (July 2020-June 2021) are:

microsoft.public.windowsxp.general 2083
microsoft.public.it.office.excel 1579
microsoft.public.fr.excel 1363
microsoft.public.de.money 609
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion 487
microsoft.public.de.excel 338
microsoft.public.fr.outlook 335
microsoft.public.excel.programming 323
microsoft.public.excel.misc 254
microsoft.public.outlook.general 253
microsoft.public.fr.windows.server 204
microsoft.public.word.docmanagement 122
microsoft.public.fr.office 107
microsoft.public.excel.worksheet.functions 107
microsoft.public.excel 104
microsoft.public.es.excel 93
microsoft.public.fr.windowsxp 80
microsoft.public.adsi.general 76
microsoft.public.nntp.test 63
microsoft.public.nl.office.excel 58
microsoft.public.scripting.vbscript 55
microsoft.public.es.word 54
microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support 51
microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.aspnet.caching 45
microsoft.public.powerpoint 43
microsoft.public.it.office.access 43
microsoft.public.outlook 42
microsoft.public.test.here 38
microsoft.public.fr.access 36
microsoft.public.word.pagelayout 35
microsoft.public.word.newusers 30
microsoft.public.fr.word 30
microsoft.public.access 28
microsoft.public.mac.office.word 26
microsoft.public.greatplains 26
microsoft.public.es.access 26
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp 26
microsoft.public.windows.server.general 22
microsoft.public.excel.setup 21
microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion 20

And there are also spams in most of them...
So basically, there are not many real active newsgroups left in the hierarchy!


Specifically in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, people seem to frequently complain about posts for more recent Windows versions than XP.  It is true that they are clearly missing in the microsoft.* hierarchy.



I remember that I had installed the microsoft newsserver.
When they switched off, we simply followed all
microsoft.* newsgroups on other newsservers.
I thought it was in 2013, but Wikipedia says june 2010.

It was in 2010:
   http://www.rxs-enterprises.org/fp/newsgroup-closure.aspx

"All public newsgroups will eventually be closed between June 1, 2010 and October 1, 2010. Microsoft will be closing newsgroups in a phased approach, starting with the least active newsgroups and moving eventually to more active ones throughout the course of the next six months."



If I understand correctly, you want to introduce new microsoft.* newsgroups?

It is currently at the state of a thought.



Main English language newsgroups for other Windows OS are:
     alt.windows7.general
     alt.comp.os.windows-8
     alt.comp.os.windows-10

For me (and a lot of other people) webforums are no alternative to usenet.

I totally understand.

There aren't many active newsgroups left in the microsoft.* hierarchy. The question of using alt.* is good (a Windows 11 newsgroup can be "created" there if needed, as well as other newsgroups).
If microsoft.public.windows-8, microsoft.public.windows-10 and microsoft.public.windows-11 existed, would they be used?  If people are already accustomed to alt.comp.os.windows-8 and like, I am unsure adding another newsgroup would be good...

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Je ne voudrais tout de même pas que Cléopâtre m'ait dans le nez ! »
   (César)


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 16:20 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:20:04 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87czs3xr2j.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<87zgvar8n9.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <sbd7n2$fee$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

I'm wondering whether there couldn't be legal issues with that
(maintaining a list of microsoft.public.* newsgroup names matching
Microsoft products, now that the officiel msnews.microsoft.com server is
no longer here).

I am quite dubious there's a *winning* legal issue, given that this is an
example of a trademark being used in precisely the way that it was
intended to be used.  The groups are for discussing the Microsoft products
identified with the trademarks used in the group names, so there is no
market confusion.

Of course, as is always the case with legal anything, being on the correct
side mostly doesn't matter because the process of being sued is
sufficiently awful that no one would want to stick around and win the
resulting case.

I don't think Microsoft would care enough to complain, particularly given
that they started the newsgroups themselves and they've been around for
years (so there's also a principle of estoppel involved).  I'm sure there
are unofficial Microsoft product forums all over the place (Reddit, for
instance) that use trademarks routinely and no one cares.  But without an
official contact at Microsoft, there's always some level of uncertainty.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 12:38 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.176.143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 14:38:32 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <sbuuge$ub8$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Responding to myself,

Maybe I could send a message in a few active newsgroups to probe what still existing users want.  They may already have an idea of useful newsgroups to create.

In the thread "Survey about microsoft.* newsgroups" in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (<news:sbi7j3$r53$1@news.trigofacile.com>), 4 persons answered.

Basically, they do not see any point in creating new newsgroups in microsoft.* because they already have newsgroups in alt.* for new Microsoft products.
A few legacy newsgroups like the one for Windows XP are still used in the microsoft.* hierarchy.  People don't mind reading newsgroups from different hierarchies (alt.*, microsoft.*, comp.*, local ones...) in their news reader.

Note to Jason:  they spoke about the difficulty to add groups to comp.* (a hierarchy which would otherwise have been likely to be used to discuss current Microsoft products).  There are still Windows 95 newsgroups in comp.*; hope the new Big Eight board will give more freshness to the hierarchy.

Currently, they prefer to go on adding groups in alt.* that suit their needs.


And the other point for microsoft.* is the removal of dead groups (where no one would respond to a question posted to them, even though they seem empty).  There is no consensus.  It is either "no, don't touch the hierarchy" or "why not, if dead, a clean up would be good".


To put into a nutshell, I am under the impression people got used to using other hierarchies than microsoft.* and it is not obvious that there is a wish to resurrect it...

--
Julien ÉLIE

« The most effective way to remember your wife's birthday is to forget
   it once… » (Nash)


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Adam H. Kerman
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 15:07 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 15:07:15 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <sbv772$2n3$2@dont-email.me>
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Julien <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:

Responding to myself,

Maybe I could send a message in a few active newsgroups to probe what

newsgroups to create.

In the thread "Survey about microsoft.* newsgroups" in
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
(<news:sbi7j3$r53$1@news.trigofacile.com>), 4 persons answered.

Basically, they do not see any point in creating new newsgroups in
microsoft.* because they already have newsgroups in alt.* for new
Microsoft products.
A few legacy newsgroups like the one for Windows XP are still used in
the microsoft.* hierarchy.  People don't mind reading newsgroups from
different hierarchies (alt.*, microsoft.*, comp.*, local ones...) in
their news reader.

The issue would have been the same for both comp.* and alt.*. Even if
those of us outside the discussion taking place observed that new groups
in comp.* and alt.* were specifically redundant of counterpart groups
already in microsoft.public.*, the Microsoft News administrator had no
ability to thwart a proposal to create a group in an international
hierarchy.

Julien, you did too good a job convincing people that microsoft.public.*
would be a nonviable hierarchy once the Microsoft News server was taken
off line, so no one made any serious attempts to start groups for
subsequent Microsoft products there. You took that option off the table.

Note to Jason:  they spoke about the difficulty to add groups to comp.*
(a hierarchy which would otherwise have been likely to be used to
discuss current Microsoft products).  There are still Windows 95
newsgroups in comp.*; hope the new Big Eight board will give more
freshness to the hierarchy.

Currently, they prefer to go on adding groups in alt.* that suit their
needs.

fwiw, the group names in alt.comp.* are reasonably good. A redundant
group in comp.* for Windows 11 would be a bad thing at this point.

And the other point for microsoft.* is the removal of dead groups (where
no one would respond to a question posted to them, even though they seem
empty).  There is no consensus.  It is either "no, don't touch the
hierarchy" or "why not, if dead, a clean up would be good".

Rmgroups are not now and never have been a known method of starting
viable discussion in groups not being removed.

To put into a nutshell, I am under the impression people got used to
using other hierarchies than microsoft.* and it is not obvious that
there is a wish to resurrect it...

It's a moot issue, Julien. You made it so.


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 07:37 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.gegeweb.eu!gegeweb.org!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.176-143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 09:37:07 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <sc1178$5ea$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<87zgvar8n9.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <sbd7n2$fee$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Hi Adam,

Julien, you did too good a job convincing people that microsoft.public.*
would be a nonviable hierarchy once the Microsoft News server was taken
off line, so no one made any serious attempts to start groups for
subsequent Microsoft products there. You took that option off the table.

We're speaking of discussions that took place more than a decade ago.
I am not under the impression I "took that option off the table".  I just sent a final checkgroups for the remaining ~500 groups still active, that is to say the last ones that remained in msnews.microsoft.com several months.  There were more than ~1700 groups, most of them without traffic, and I still think it was a good move from Microsoft to clean and rationalize that huge list before stopping their news server.
I then left the list of groups as-is, clearly stating that the PGP key was initially created and trusted for the "replication" of the list of newsgroups present in the Microsoft's news server.
If somebody wanted to go on "maintaining" the hierarchy and give it another life, he could have taken that path (<news:hs9i8m$ia$1@news.trigofacile.com> amongst other articles I sent).

As guessed in 2010, it was not bound to happen.  You even said "the chances of someone reviving a brand-specific customer support hierarchy after abandoned by the manufacturer are only slightly better than Microsoft writing a decent newsreader" (<news:hs9sf6$emq$2@news.albasani.net>).

So, here, I just wish to recall I never said microsoft.public.* would be a nonviable hierarchy, nor I took that option off the table...

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Sometimes in love you must accept the fact that what makes the person
   you cared about happy might on the other hand leave you so lonely. »


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Adam H. Kerman
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 14:02 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 14:02:48 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <sc1nq8$b89$2@dont-email.me>
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X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
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Julien <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:

Hi Adam,

Julien, you did too good a job convincing people that microsoft.public.*
would be a nonviable hierarchy once the Microsoft News server was taken
off line, so no one made any serious attempts to start groups for
subsequent Microsoft products there. You took that option off the table.

We're speaking of discussions that took place more than a decade ago.
I am not under the impression I "took that option off the table".  I
just sent a final checkgroups for the remaining ~500 groups still
active, that is to say the last ones that remained in
msnews.microsoft.com several months.

I thought I recalled you had sent rmgroups for the remaining groups.
My error. I apologize.

. . .


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 14:57 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.nntp4.net!news.gegeweb.eu!gegeweb.org!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.176.143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 16:57:55 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <sc1r1j$6kg$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<sbuuge$ub8$1@news.trigofacile.com> <sbv772$2n3$2@dont-email.me>
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Hi Adam,

Julien, you did too good a job convincing people that microsoft.public.*
would be a nonviable hierarchy once the Microsoft News server was taken
off line, so no one made any serious attempts to start groups for
subsequent Microsoft products there. You took that option off the table.

We're speaking of discussions that took place more than a decade ago.
I am not under the impression I "took that option off the table".  I
just sent a final checkgroups for the remaining ~500 groups still
active, that is to say the last ones that remained in
msnews.microsoft.com several months.

I thought I recalled you had sent rmgroups for the remaining groups.
My error. I apologize.

No problem!
It is true that we discussed several options at that time, amongst which were sending rmgroups for the remaining groups.  That path was not taken (thanks to the share of your point of view, as well as others, at that time, pros and cons).

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Le cercle n'est qu'une ligne droite revenue à son point de départ. »
   (San-Antonio)


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 08:09 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.niel.me!news.gegeweb.eu!gegeweb.org!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.176.143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:09:38 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <scm647$b86$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Hi Russ,

P.-S.:  I wonder whether gnu.* couldn't similarly be checked and
updated.  As well as perl.* or linux.* list of mailing-list gateways.

I think Marco still actively maintains linux.*, although I may be wrong.

Checkgroups for linux.* are sent from time to time.  Last one a few months ago, in January 2021.
However, no changes since 2004; that's why I wonder whether the list was up-to-date (no new mailing-list to gateway, or new groups or defunct ones to remove?)


I created a key for gnu.* eons ago and was going to help maintain it, but
then never finished the project and it's long-since defunct.

Then shouldn't gnu.* marked as unmanaged or defunct?

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Vti, non abuti. »


Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 08:28 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.nntp4.net!news.gegeweb.eu!gegeweb.org!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.176-143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies
Subject: Re: microsoft.* hierarchy
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:28:09 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <scm76u$clk$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <sa9vhe$9u2$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<sbuuge$ub8$1@news.trigofacile.com> <sbv772$2n3$2@dont-email.me>
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Hi Adam,

I just sent a final checkgroups for the remaining ~500 groups still
active, that is to say the last ones that remained in
msnews.microsoft.com several months.

I thought I recalled you had sent rmgroups for the remaining groups.

The question now is whether a bit more of house-keeping should be done, to resume the list to ~100 groups or so (at least on news servers still honouring these control messages).  It may make the hierarchy more readable and usable for possible newcomers.

Too bad there are not many general newsgroups (components usually contain the version: "windows98", "windowsxp", etc. and not "windows.98" or "windows.xp") so a general catch-all newsgroup cannot be preserved. And I am unsure creating such general groups would be a good thing anyway at that time.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Vti, non abuti. »


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