In article <d23329ff5a.harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk>,
Harriet Bazley <harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:

> So the most painless way to add the key data would be to re-sort your
> index into page number order within each source, and then simply start
> at the beginning of the book and enter each key manually as you come to
> it. Still a lot of typing, but far less than attempting to look up
> each piece in their current alphabetical order.

Of course!

I have kept the stages for each "book" so that I can easily edit and
re-concatenate-and-re-sort. I would add the keys in the CSV files and
re-make the sheet.

All of this was done under RISC OS though, which is really the point.
I used my favourite familiar software on an OS I understand to make me
"productive", giving me a result which may be of use to others.

All this despite RISC OS being unable to display many of the scores
themselves.

You may have noticed I've also learned to do stuff you can see on your
'phone!

Fed-up with all those messages from Google about my legacy "Petit Four"
site designed before we had smartphones!

Who would ever have imagined?

I like to tell the tale of my father who had heard of these things called
"laundromats" in the USA after the war, but dismissed them as an investment
idea, saying "taking your washing to a shop would never catch-on".

Who would ever have imagined? I expect people whose families are now
rather well-off.

But soon that'll be so far in the past as a story it will be greeted by
blank stares. We may even be there already.

Best wishes,
John

In article <54b127ff5a.chris@mytardis>,
Chris Hughes <news13@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore

Thank you, Chris! Very helpful.

John

I have now tried PMS and find it excellent so far!

I have succeeded with the first example eventually. But caution!

I exported the example text from the PDF manual <emphatic>to avoid typing
errors</emphatic> only to encounter my first error!

Usual problem experienced when downloading PHP scripts; character ambiguity!

What should have been an apostrophe in the PDF manual was actually a sexed
leading quote - very difficult to spot!

I thought I should mention it here in case others, enthused by this thread,
fall at the first hurdle because of it!

I'm pleased to see it's based on ABC, something I've recently looked into
from a slightly different angle (whistle players), and the basics seem
delightfully simple!

Thanks to all contributors.

Best wishes,
John

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

>
> I have now tried PMS and find it excellent so far!
>
> I have succeeded with the first example eventually. But caution!
>
> I exported the example text from the PDF manual <emphatic>to avoid typing
> errors</emphatic> only to encounter my first error!
>
> Usual problem experienced when downloading PHP scripts; character ambiguity!
>
> What should have been an apostrophe in the PDF manual was actually a
> sexed leading quote - very difficult to spot!

Note that !PMS actually does funny things with apostrophes in text:

"The quote character � [CHR$(180)] and the grave accent character `
[CHR$(96)] are converted into (single) closing and opening quote
characters, respectively, except when using the music or Symbol fonts. A
closing quote character is the same as an apostrophe."

>
> I thought I should mention it here in case others, enthused by this thread,
> fall at the first hurdle because of it!
>
> I'm pleased to see it's based on ABC, something I've recently looked into
> from a slightly different angle (whistle players), and the basics seem
> delightfully simple!

Yes, it's definitely reminiscent of ABC notation, which I played around
with quite a bit at one point. Albeit a cross between ABC and LaTeX!
:-p

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

It is better to be deceived by a friend, than to suspect him.

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

>
> I have now tried PMS and find it excellent so far!
>

N.B. I have a 'PMS' StrongED mode that does some colouring (e.g.
highlighting comments and [slur]/[endslur] markings) and folds
individual staves, which can be convenient when you start getting
multiple parts per file. I would e-mail it to you, but your adress
appears to be a spam-bin.

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Don't hate yourself in the morning - sleep till noon.

In message <5abd3fff5a.harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk>
Harriet Bazley <harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:

> On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
> John Williams (News) wrote:

>>
>> I have now tried PMS and find it excellent so far!
>>
Nice;

>>
>> I thought I should mention it here in case others, enthused by this thread,
>> fall at the first hurdle because of it!
>>
>> I'm pleased to see it's based on ABC, something I've recently looked into
>> from a slightly different angle (whistle players), and the basics seem
>> delightfully simple!

> Yes, it's definitely reminiscent of ABC notation, which I played around
> with quite a bit at one point. Albeit a cross between ABC and LaTeX!
>:-p

Just for me,
>>I'm pleased to see it's based on ABC
Tell you about the source, or the syntax used by !PMS ?

The source is entirely in C and well documented, I think we should be able
to retrieve syntax information from it to make a StongEd manual, it's just
an idea...

Good idea to have a PMS mode with StrongEd, I'm interested...

--
Jean-Michel

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

> In message <f3e8ccfe5a.harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk>
> Harriet Bazley <harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:

> > I think half the problem is the manual, or at least the PostScript
> > version of it - I simply can't *find* features because the relevant data
> > is spread across multiple sections.

[snip]

> You will be able to write a hints_tips manual, Rhapsody has one

I could theoretically write an article for Archive, like the one I did
on constructing a pronunciation dictionary for the modern eSpeak, but
I'm not sure that there is any point in writing about the obscure
features of a program (PMS) that most readers won't use or even have
heard of. You would need to write a whole series of articles starting
from the basics before working up to the complexities - and I don't have
the energy to do that.

[snip]

> > The good news is that the first violins were so impressed by my
> > rewritten 'readable' second violin part that they want me to do them one
> > as well - I said it would be relatively easy, because it is almost
> > identical in terms of rhythm and ornament to the second violin part, and
> > I assumed it would just be a matter of plugging different note values
> > into a copy of the stave I'd already constructed.
>
> Can you send me the !Rhapsody version and the !PMS version in PDF or Draw
> to compare, please.

Unfortunately there isn't any Rhapsody version - I had to make a
decision as to which program I was going to use in order to avoid
duplicating effort, and I started off in PMS.

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

We are the knights who say "NI!"

On 7 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

> The source is entirely in C and well documented, I think we should be able
> to retrieve syntax information from it to make a StongEd manual, it's just
> an idea...

It would be possible to construct a 'lookup' StrongHelp manual indexed
by keyword, but I'm not sure how useful that would be - the various
keywords are already in the index of the PDF manual. The problem for me
is in finding *which* keyword/option setting makes it possible to do
which task....

I suppose StrongHelp would make it possible to have various sub-pages
included under multiple different headings, so that you could include
all the different keywords controlling slurs in their various different
categories, for example, and then have a master page on 'slurs' that
includes all that information in the same place. But turning a
two-hundred-page manual into a StrongHelp file organised along different
lines would be a massive job, and not one I feel inclined to embark
upon for software I use only about once a year. I did do that once,
for GNU awk about twenty years ago, and when it came to trying to update
my version with the new features/global variables introduced by a recent
later port of the program, I'm afraid I lost enthusiasm less than
halfway through. :-(

> Good idea to have a PMS mode with StrongEd, I'm interested...
>

Sent.

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

We will release no software before its time.

In message <a5e5bcff5a.harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk>
Harriet Bazley <harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:

> On 7 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
> Jean-Michel wrote:

>> The source is entirely in C and well documented, I think we should be able
>> to retrieve syntax information from it to make a StongEd manual, it's just
>> an idea...

> It would be possible to construct a 'lookup' StrongHelp manual indexed
> by keyword, but I'm not sure how useful that would be - the various
> keywords are already in the index of the PDF manual. The problem for me
> is in finding *which* keyword/option setting makes it possible to do
> which task....
I've been thinking about StrongEd, and I'm going to do some testing ( C
library). But for PMS I think the syntax is in the source.

> I suppose StrongHelp would make it possible to have various sub-pages
> included under multiple different headings, so that you could include
> all the different keywords controlling slurs in their various different
> categories, for example, and then have a master page on 'slurs' that
> includes all that information in the same place. But turning a
> two-hundred-page manual into a StrongHelp file organised along different
> lines would be a massive job, and not one I feel inclined to embark
> upon for software I use only about once a year. I did do that once,
> for GNU awk about twenty years ago, and when it came to trying to update
> my version with the new features/global variables introduced by a recent
> later port of the program, I'm afraid I lost enthusiasm less than
> halfway through. :-(

Some time ago I contacted Rick Griffin and he modified his version of
MakeHelp to work with Python 3.8 , thanks to him.
If you want an overview look at the StrongEd C99 manual.
The link on the manual no longer works, but I can provide it.

>> Good idea to have a PMS mode with StrongEd, I'm interested...
> Sent.
Merci
I would have to little test with PMS on a few terms from the PDF file and
the source.

--
Jean-Michel

In article <54b127ff5a.chris@mytardis>,
Chris Hughes <news13@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore

Thanks to Chris I successfully downloaded this and have started using it.

Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has a
RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the paper
manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been scanned,
making it rather difficult to follow. One could even say "odd"!

I am hoping that someone has either (unlikely) a version with the even
pages as well, or (more likely) a paper version which they could scan or
photograph the even pages for me so that I could reconstruct a useable
manual.

I have the full PMW manual, wich is comprehensive, but is post-RISC OS
version, so does not address the particular specifics of the RISC OS
version pre-dating this release.

If we (someone?) could help provide a full version, the PlingStore version
could be updated.

And I could learn about the mysteries of the MIDI output!

My address is invalid here, but we could address that with a later post if
anyone posts that they can help.

John

On 12 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

> In article <54b127ff5a.chris@mytardis>,
> Chris Hughes <news13@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore
>
> Thanks to Chris I successfully downloaded this and have started using it.
>
> Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has a
> RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the paper
> manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been scanned,
> making it rather difficult to follow. One could even say "odd"!

That's certainly odd; the version I have is *not* a scanned copy but a
PDF generated directly out of the original document (or at least, it
contains text and not JPEG images of the pages), and it very definitely
has both left- and right-hand pages present...

Is this the "RISC OS PMS/pdf" file?

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Those who can't write, write manuals.

In article <6550ca81$0$7528$426a74cc@news.free.fr>,
John Williams (News) <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has
> a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the
> paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been
> scanned, making it rather difficult to follow. One could even say "odd"!

I had assumed that all releases would be the same, but it appears that
Harriet's version has both odd and even pages, and she has kindly sent it
to me.

John

In message <6550d4e7$0$3001$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
"John Williams (News)" <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <6550ca81$0$7528$426a74cc@news.free.fr>,
> John Williams (News) <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>> Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has
>> a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the
>> paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been
>> scanned, making it rather difficult to follow. One could even say "odd"!

> I had assumed that all releases would be the same, but it appears that
> Harriet's version has both odd and even pages, and she has kindly sent it
> to me.

John, I have just downloaded PMS361 from PlingStore, and within the Manual
folder are two PMW manual's plus the QercusArticle.

The RISC OS PMS/pdf manual does have odd and even pages (just remember to
widen the PDF window or scroll the bottom bar to see the pages. This
manual seems to be a simplified manual.

The PMW/pdf file is a full manual with a Contents at the front etc.
(totalling 213 pages)

--
Chris Hughes

In article <6550ca81$0$7528$426a74cc@news.free.fr>,
John Williams (News) <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has
> a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the
> paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been
> scanned

It turns out that a combination of my stupidity, thinking about too many
things at once, and using an unfamiliar PDF reader have led to me being
totally in error over this.

I apologise to anyone whose time I have wasted.

I shall reflect more carefully in future before posting nonsense!

John

On 12 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

> In article <6550ca81$0$7528$426a74cc@news.free.fr>,
> John Williams (News) <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has
> > a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the
> > paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been
> > scanned
>
> It turns out that a combination of my stupidity, thinking about too many
> things at once, and using an unfamiliar PDF reader have led to me being
> totally in error over this.
>
I did wonder about that, but assumed that since you were missing the
*left-hand* pages it couldn't be a case of not having opened the window
to show the full spread...!

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

It is impossible to enjoy idling thoroughly unless one has plenty of work to do

On 12 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Chris Hughes wrote:

[snip]

> John, I have just downloaded PMS361 from PlingStore, and within the Manual
> folder are two PMW manual's plus the QercusArticle.
>
> The RISC OS PMS/pdf manual does have odd and even pages (just remember to
> widen the PDF window or scroll the bottom bar to see the pages. This
> manual seems to be a simplified manual.
>
> The PMW/pdf file is a full manual with a Contents at the front etc.
> (totalling 213 pages)

The RISC OS manual deals with how to use the PMS desktop application,
which gives you an interactive graphical interface to things that the
Linux version can only handle by supplying additional arguments on the
command line, or can't handle at all, like live playback as opposed to
saving out MIDI files.

The final chapter also explains that the PostScript files saved out by
!PMS don't actually display properly unless you prepend a copy of the
PMS-Music fonts to them, a little detail which tripped me up!

The main 'PMW' manual deals with how to use the command-line version
from Linux, and the RISC OS instructions are to ignore the first four
chapters of this, since they are replaced by the RISC OS-specific
instructions in the separate manual. :-)

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Hypocrisy is underrated.

In message <6550ca81$0$7528$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
"John Williams (News)" <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <54b127ff5a.chris@mytardis>,
> Chris Hughes <news13@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

>> PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore

>

> And I could learn about the mysteries of the MIDI output!

Listening to a PMS score in MIDI is possible with the RISC OS version.

1) Download Synth Module, a standalone MIDI synthesiser (Pete Everret)
http://www.forever.onmypc.net/

Module to load to listen to Maestro, PMS and Rhapsody, very good.

2) Add MIDI instructions to PMS script
 ex-1: (for your Snowman score)
midichannel 1 "violin"
1 is the channel (16 possible)
violin instrument name
 ex-2: Viola + piano
midichannel 1 "viola"
midichannel 2 "piano" 2-3

The numbers 2 and 3 correspond to the staves which must use this channel,
therefore those of the piano.
If this number is not specified this will be the first stave.

Note: channel 10 is reserved for percussion.
Each note represents a different instrument, you must specify channel 10 ,
stave number and the note (number or name).
 ex-3 from manual
midichannel 10 5 "#60"
midichannel 10 6 "triangle"

I recommend downloading the latest version of PMS (5.21) because the
manual is indexed and this makes searching much easier.

Pete's module is GM compatible (standard: General MIDI), you can easily
find the list of instruments and percussions.

--
Jean-Michel

On 13 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

[snip]

> I recommend downloading the latest version of PMS (5.21) because the
> manual is indexed and this makes searching much easier.

Do you mean the Linux-only version?

The RISC OS version on PlingStore (3.61P) has a fully indexed manual....

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Please all, and you will please none.

In message <1f959a025b.harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk>
Harriet Bazley <harriet@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:

> On 13 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
> Jean-Michel wrote:

> [snip]

>> I recommend downloading the latest version of PMS (5.21) because the
>> manual is indexed and this makes searching much easier.

> Do you mean the Linux-only version?

> The RISC OS version on PlingStore (3.61P) has a fully indexed manual....

Yes, but with the latest version 5.21 the links in the index pages work
with !PDF. This makes searching much easier.

--
Jean-Michel