I ran across this keyboard

https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/

and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464
keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if
anyone has any experience with it.

Jeff Coffield
www.digitalsynergyinc.com

On 11/4/2021 12:14 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
> I ran across this keyboard
>
> https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/
>
> and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464
> keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if
> anyone has any experience with it.

I don't know it, but the fact that there is only 5 keys over
the arrow keys does not appeal to me.

Arne

On 11/04/2021 09:51 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 11/4/2021 12:14 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
>> I ran across this keyboard
>>
>> https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/
>>
>> and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464
>> keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if
>> anyone has any experience with it.
>
> I don't know it, but the fact that there is only 5 keys over
> the arrow keys does not appeal to me.
>
> Arne
>
The picture I am looking at shows 7 keys above the arrow keys.

Jeff

On 2021-11-04, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 11/4/2021 12:14 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
>> I ran across this keyboard
>>
>> https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/
>>
>> and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464
>> keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if
>> anyone has any experience with it.
>
> I don't know it, but the fact that there is only 5 keys over
> the arrow keys does not appeal to me.
>

Agreed, very strongly. (Note that the Insert button is actually on the
top row of the keyboard where the function keys are.)

If Jeffrey is thinking of buying that, then I think a normal high-quality
PC keyboard would probably be better as it's much closer in layout to
a DEC keyboard than the above keyboard is.

I have used both emacs in EDT keypad mode and EVE on VMS exclusively
from a PC keyboard for over 15 years and it works very well indeed.

In fact, I actually prefer a high-quality PC keyboard over a DEC
keyboard because my fingers "flow" over the PC keyboard much easier
and I still remember just how much less effort there was typing on
a good PC keyboard compared to a DEC keyboard.

I might upset a few people around here saying this, but in other words,
I found the ergonomics of a high-quality PC keyboard to actually be
better than a DEC keyboard.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-11-04, Jeffrey H. Coffield <jeffrey@digitalsynergyinc.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 11/04/2021 09:51 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 11/4/2021 12:14 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
>>> I ran across this keyboard
>>>
>>> https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/
>>>
>>> and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464
>>> keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if
>>> anyone has any experience with it.
>>
>> I don't know it, but the fact that there is only 5 keys over
>> the arrow keys does not appeal to me.
>>
>> Arne
>>
> The picture I am looking at shows 7 keys above the arrow keys.
>

That's the same picture I am looking at, but only 5 of those keys are
where the editing keypad is on a DEC keyboard. The other two are on
the same row as the function keys.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 11/4/2021 3:13 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
>
>
> On 11/04/2021 09:51 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 11/4/2021 12:14 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
>>> I ran across this keyboard
>>>
>>> https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/
>>>
>>> and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464
>>> keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if
>>> anyone has any experience with it.
>>
>> I don't know it, but the fact that there is only 5 keys over
>> the arrow keys does not appeal to me.
>>
>> Arne
>>
> The picture I am looking at shows 7 keys above the arrow keys.

Below is the keyboard my son uses for gaming. While I've never used it on a VMS system, I like the feel of
it the few times I've used it on his Windows system.

When my LK keyboard stock runs out, this is the next keyboard I'll buy.

https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Categories/Products/Gaming-Keyboards/Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboards/K68-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard-%E2%80%94-Red-LED-%E2%80%94-CHERRY%C2%AE-MX-Red/p/CH-9102020-NA

--

-- Rob

On 11/4/2021 3:13 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
>
>
> On 11/04/2021 09:51 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 11/4/2021 12:14 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
>>> I ran across this keyboard
>>>
>>> https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/
>>>
>>> and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464
>>> keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if
>>> anyone has any experience with it.
>>
>> I don't know it, but the fact that there is only 5 keys over
>> the arrow keys does not appeal to me.
>
> The picture I am looking at shows 7 keys above the arrow keys.

Yes, but two of them I count as F-keys.

I like 2 rows 3 cols below the F-keys above the arrows.

That is just me. YMMV.

Arne

Den 2021-11-04 kl. 20:20, skrev Simon Clubley:
> On 2021-11-04, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 11/4/2021 12:14 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
>>> I ran across this keyboard
>>>
>>> https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/
>>>
>>> and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464
>>> keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if
>>> anyone has any experience with it.
>>
>> I don't know it, but the fact that there is only 5 keys over
>> the arrow keys does not appeal to me.
>>
>
> Agreed, very strongly. (Note that the Insert button is actually on the
> top row of the keyboard where the function keys are.)
>
> If Jeffrey is thinking of buying that, then I think a normal high-quality
> PC keyboard would probably be better as it's much closer in layout to
> a DEC keyboard than the above keyboard is.
>
> I have used both emacs in EDT keypad mode and EVE on VMS exclusively
> from a PC keyboard for over 15 years and it works very well indeed.
>
> In fact, I actually prefer a high-quality PC keyboard over a DEC
> keyboard because my fingers "flow" over the PC keyboard much easier
> and I still remember just how much less effort there was typing on
> a good PC keyboard compared to a DEC keyboard.
>
> I might upset a few people around here saying this, but in other words,
> I found the ergonomics of a high-quality PC keyboard to actually be
> better than a DEC keyboard.
>
> Simon.
>

Don't know about high quality, and I am maybe not that fuzzy about it.
I simply buy a couple of some cheap BT keyboard/mouse combo, use one
and put the other away as a replacement. Currently using this one.
Mine says K540, not sure about the difference to this MK540...

https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/combos/mk540-advanced-wireless-keyboard-mouse.920-008671.html

I have no trouble with EDT, it is just that fourth key in the right-most
column on the keypad that I can't remember what it was in EDT.
I haven't use a "DEC keyboard" in 30 years.

And since my OpenVMS consulting is probably 20% VMS and 80% traditional
PC work, I want a PC keyboard.

Jan-Erik.

On 11/4/2021 11:14 AM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
> I ran across this keyboard
>
> https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/
>
> and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464 keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with it.
>
> Jeff Coffield
> www.digitalsynergyinc.com

It's not cheap, but this is an excellent keyboard with a nearly perfect VT220 layout.

http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/viewer/2.jpg

Amazon - $139 US https://www.amazon.com/Matias-Tactile-Pro-Keyboard-Mac/dp/B003N3HFI6

It's labeled for the Mac but will work on Windows PC. They have a Windows PC version but the keypad is missing the "+" key like all PC keyboard. Only the Mac version has the full size keypad.

There is a Win/Mac aluminum keyboard which has the right layout, but I don't like the flat, thin keys. http://matias.ca/aluminum/wireless/

--
John H. Reinhardt

Rob,

Speaking of your stock of LK keyboards…

I have the word processing version of LK45x in which several of the rubber domes have been crushed flat. I paid almost nothing for it, cleaned out a possibly decades-old soft drink spill at one end, generally cleaned up, and repaired some damaged traces, but I can’t think of a way to fix the problem of the crushed domes except to replace the whole rubber sheet.

Do you happen to have a similar keyboard that you can’t use for some reason, but that has a good dome sheet?

On 2021-11-04, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>
> Don't know about high quality, and I am maybe not that fuzzy about it.
> I simply buy a couple of some cheap BT keyboard/mouse combo, use one
> and put the other away as a replacement. Currently using this one.
> Mine says K540, not sure about the difference to this MK540...
>
> https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/combos/mk540-advanced-wireless-keyboard-mouse.920-008671.html
>

Looks like a nice keyboard (although I prefer wired over wireless).

> I have no trouble with EDT, it is just that fourth key in the right-most
> column on the keypad that I can't remember what it was in EDT.
> I haven't use a "DEC keyboard" in 30 years.
>

"Delete Word". I've never missed it.

> And since my OpenVMS consulting is probably 20% VMS and 80% traditional
> PC work, I want a PC keyboard.
>

Yes. :-) In my case, I needed the same solution for Windows, Linux and
VMS systems, so switching exclusively to a PC keyboard was the obvious
choice, especially given that VMS systems are usually accessed through
one of the first two systems anyway.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 05/11/2021 18:29, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-11-04, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>>
>> Don't know about high quality, and I am maybe not that fuzzy about it.
>> I simply buy a couple of some cheap BT keyboard/mouse combo, use one
>> and put the other away as a replacement. Currently using this one.
>> Mine says K540, not sure about the difference to this MK540...
>>
>> https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/combos/mk540-advanced-wireless-keyboard-mouse.920-008671.html
>>
>
> Looks like a nice keyboard (although I prefer wired over wireless).
>
>> I have no trouble with EDT, it is just that fourth key in the right-most
>> column on the keypad that I can't remember what it was in EDT.
>> I haven't use a "DEC keyboard" in 30 years.
>>
>
> "Delete Word". I've never missed it.
>

:dw in Vi - or Vim although I hate them, but have had to use them

--
Chris

On 11/05/21 23:13, Chris Townley wrote:
> On 05/11/2021 18:29, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2021-11-04, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Don't know about high quality, and I am maybe not that fuzzy about it.
>>> I simply buy a couple of some cheap BT keyboard/mouse combo, use one
>>> and put the other away as a replacement. Currently using this one.
>>> Mine says K540, not sure about the difference to this MK540...
>>>
>>> https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/combos/mk540-advanced-wireless-keyboard-mouse.920-008671.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Looks like a nice keyboard (although I prefer wired over wireless).
>>
>>> I have no trouble with EDT, it is just that fourth key in the right-most
>>> column on the keypad that I can't remember what it was in EDT.
>>> I haven't use a "DEC keyboard" in 30 years.
>>>
>>
>> "Delete Word". I've never missed it.
>>
>
> :dw in Vi - or Vim although I hate them, but have had to use them
>

i've been using a Sun layout pc keyboard, with 2 columns of five keys
at the left hand end and 6 x 4 at the keypad end. The computer thinks
is is an Apple Extended Keyboard, but really like the progressive key
response and action. The later usb Sun keyboards all have the same feel.
That after using lk... ps2 kbd on an Alphastation for over 10 years.
Never failed, but crude feel in comparison...

Chris

Simon Clubley schrieb am 05.11.2021 um 19:29:
> On 2021-11-04, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>
>> I have no trouble with EDT, it is just that fourth key in the right-most
>> column on the keypad that I can't remember what it was in EDT.
>> I haven't use a "DEC keyboard" in 30 years.
>>
>
> "Delete Word". I've never missed it.

I miss it - sort of - in the sense that I use this functionality regularly.

The two terminal emulators I use most (PuTTY, and the old VT320e from
the Multia era) use <Shift/+ for "delete word", and I got used to this
option.

Don't remember whether this also works with a keyboard directly
connected to an Alpha or to a "real" VT terminal, i.e. whether it's
built into EVE or into the terminal emulators.

Hans.

I miss it badly. The beauty and elegance of the EDT family of editors is that DEL L, DEL W, DEL C, and DEL SEL, all had their own buffers from which one could UNDELETE later, anywhere, once, or <GOLD>N times. I struggle with all other editors to achive this productivity. So, it's not just about deleting a word, it's that you can then easily reuse it.
Some editors use Ctrl+T to delete the next word, great, but it's awkward - I need two hands for this - compared to a dedicated keypad key.

In article <3dc63091-9f4e-4698-9932-09bdc98e030en@googlegroups.com>, Slo
<slovuj@gmail.com> writes:

> I miss it badly. The beauty and elegance of the EDT family of editors is
> that DEL L, DEL W, DEL C, and DEL SEL, all had their own buffers from
> which one could UNDELETE later, anywhere, once, or <GOLD>N times. I
> struggle with all other editors to achive this productivity. So, it's
> not just about deleting a word, it's that you can then easily reuse it.

Right. And the DEL C buffer is the same as the rubout <×| buffer.

> Some editors use Ctrl+T to delete the next word, great, but it's awkward
> - I need two hands for this - compared to a dedicated keypad key.

Right. EDT is by far the most efficient editor. And it is much more
than just the EDT keypad.

On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 11:55:36 PM UTC+13, Slo wrote:
> The beauty and elegance of the EDT family of editors is that DEL L, DEL W, DEL C, and
> DEL SEL, all had their own buffers from which one could UNDELETE later, anywhere,
> once, or <GOLD>N times.

Emacs already works this way. Text-deletion commands with “kill” in their name (e.g. kill-word, backward-kill-word, kill-line, kill-region) put the deleted text into the yank buffer, and CTRL/Y copies this text at the insertion point.

Basically, anything you might want to do, Emacs either already does it, or can be made to do it. ;)

On 07/11/2021 22:01, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 11:55:36 PM UTC+13, Slo wrote:
>> The beauty and elegance of the EDT family of editors is that DEL L, DEL W, DEL C, and
>> DEL SEL, all had their own buffers from which one could UNDELETE later, anywhere,
>> once, or <GOLD>N times.
>
> Emacs already works this way. Text-deletion commands with “kill” in their name (e.g. kill-word, backward-kill-word, kill-line, kill-region) put the deleted text into the yank buffer, and CTRL/Y copies this text at the insertion point.
>
> Basically, anything you might want to do, Emacs either already does it, or can be made to do it. ;)
>

For anybody brought up on VMS Ctrl-Y is hardly the best to recover...

--
Chris

On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 12:20:10 PM UTC+13, Chris Townley wrote:
> For anybody brought up on VMS Ctrl-Y is hardly the best to recover...

The fun doesn’t stop there: how about CTRL/S for forward search, CTRL/Q to literally enter the next character, CTRL/X as a prefix for multi-keystroke commands, CTRL/C as a prefix reserved for user-defined commands, CTRL/O to break a line, CTRL/U to enter a numeric argument ...

On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 1:07:12 AM UTC+1, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 12:20:10 PM UTC+13, Chris Townley wrote:
> > For anybody brought up on VMS Ctrl-Y is hardly the best to recover...
> The fun doesn’t stop there: how about CTRL/S for forward search, CTRL/Q to literally enter the next character, CTRL/X as a prefix for multi-keystroke commands, CTRL/C as a prefix reserved for user-defined commands, CTRL/O to break a line, CTRL/U to enter a numeric argument ...

I'm aware of Emac's power, but how does it manage to grab all those
CTRL combos from the terminal driver? Can't check now, does SET TERMINAL /PASSTHRU
exist? It's been a long time...
Way before Emacs, I was in love with Wordstar on CP/M and it's "cross" made
from CTRL+
QWER
ASDF
ZXC
(Gamers today use the same keys, but without CTRL, of course.)
That was extremly productive -- using the main keyboard for input
an total control. This layout was an option in many other tools at the
time. Sadly, the IDIOTS who designed the IBM PC
keyboard moved the CTRL key to the bottom left, making it
barely usable only for ^X ^C ^V ^D, most other commands now
require two hands.
At that point, I stopped using Wordstar on Windows; for some time, folks
would remap the Caps Lock key to CTRL, but eventually all software
using the cross died away -- because of some idiot keyboard designer,
who never touch-typed or programmed.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:41:01 AM UTC+13, Slo wrote:
> I'm aware of Emac's power, but how does it manage to grab all those
> CTRL combos from the terminal driver?

cfmakeraw, I guess <https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/manpages-dev/termios.3.en.html>.

And it does better than that: I just tried running it as a non-GUI app via an SSH session to a remote machine, and it was able to pick up the alt and meta key modifiers as well.

> That was extremly productive -- using the main keyboard for input
> an total control.

I like the fact that we have more keys available nowadays. For example, I have “+” and “-” on the numeric keypad defined to jump forward and backward between section-header comments.

What’s a section-header comment? Well, back in my early student days, I was exposed to a fair amount of PDP-11 assembly code which used “;+” and ”;-” to demarcate blocks of comments at the start of sections of code. I liked the idea so much, I use the convention to this day. In languages where the line-comment initiator is “#” (like Python or bash) I use “#+” and “#-”. But Emacs being Emacs, I can define a single pair of commands which will cope with all these possibilities (and others).

> ... for some time, folks would remap the Caps Lock key to CTRL, but eventually all
> software using the cross died away -- because of some idiot keyboard designer,
> who never touch-typed or programmed.

Don’t most editors allow you to remap key bindings, like Emacs does?

On 11/8/2021 6:23 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:41:01 AM UTC+13, Slo wrote:
>> ... for some time, folks would remap the Caps Lock key to CTRL, but eventually all
>> software using the cross died away -- because of some idiot keyboard designer,
>> who never touch-typed or programmed.
>
> Don’t most editors allow you to remap key bindings, like Emacs does?

It is a common feature.

But there are some limitations when using VT terminal (emulation)
compared to local application running on PC.

Arne

On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 15:23:57 -0800, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:41:01 AM UTC+13, Slo wrote:
>> I'm aware of Emac's power, but how does it manage to grab all those
>> CTRL combos from the terminal driver?
>
> cfmakeraw, I guess
> <https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/manpages-dev/termios.3.en.html>.
>
> And it does better than that: I just tried running it as a non-GUI app
> via an SSH session to a remote machine, and it was able to pick up the
> alt and meta key modifiers as well.

On VMS?

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:59 PM UTC+13, Bob Eager wrote:
> On VMS?

No.

Unless you want to revive my proposal for how to implement a VMS-compatible layer on top of Linux ...

On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 17:21:30 -0800, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:59 PM UTC+13, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On VMS?
>
> No.
>
> Unless you want to revive my proposal for how to implement a
> VMS-compatible layer on top of Linux ...

The question was about how raw terminal input is done on VMS.

Or perhaps you didn't read that bit.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor