On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 15:44:56 +0200, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

>On 15/07/2021 14:48, George Neuner wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:58:53 -0700, Stephen Fuld
>> <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I am using Thunderbird (latest version). There is an option in the
>>> account compose options to use HTML. I do NOT have that checked. Other
>>> than that, I don't know how to do what you want me to. If anyone can
>>> help, please do. But I should note that I think others in this group
>>> use Google groups, and, in general, no one else does what your system does.
>>>
>>> I am willing to experiment, but I don't know what to try.
>>
>> *Disclaimer* I have never played with these settings.
>>
>> In the general Options under Composition there is a "Send Options"
>> button. It allows you to declare mail domains that expect messages to
>> be in plain text. Also you can control what to do when a message has
>> multiple recipients that expect different formats.
>>
>> Perhaps if you set Google / Gmail as a text domain? But you probably
>> would have to prevent TBird from also sending in HTML format.
>>
>
>That all applies to email, not Usenet. When you post to a newsserver,
>you are not sending to google or a gmail account.

In TBird it /can/ apply to NN posts also: all that matters is what
domain is being addressed.

>His posts are in plain text, not HTML - there is nothing wrong with his
>settings as far as I can see. It is google groups that is broken.

I know Google Groups is broken.

The issue here is what TBird does for NNTP. Certainly HTML /can/ be
sent via NNTP, and by default TBird sends /email/ in both text and
HTML format.

What I don't know - and can't seem to find out easily - is whether
Tbird does the same for NNTP. If so, Google could be confused even
more than usual. I don't use Tbird for NNTP [I use a dedicated
client] so I don't know what TBird does with it.

George

On 7/15/2021 9:05 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 15/07/2021 16:57, Stephen Fuld wrote:
>> On 7/15/2021 6:53 AM, luke.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 2:44:59 PM UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> His posts are in plain text, not HTML - there is nothing wrong with his
>>>> settings as far as I can see. It is google groups that is broken.
>>>
>>> you can see online what happened:
>>>
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/comp.arch/c/0n9Ko6wjmHU/m/KNjd3pSKAAAJ
>>>
>>> steven replied to me, but look carefully: my text starting "MSRPC" is
>>> not properly indented, it appears in a subtly different font and colour.
>>>
>>> replying to that, google groups via a mobile chrome browser was unable
>>> to cope, and crushed the indentation.
>>>
>>> i suspect therefore it is a unique interaction: not one factor but two.
>>>
>>> i find there is no problem with indentation replying to *anyone
>>> else's* messages: it appears to be a unique interaction between
>>> Thunderbird and google groups when used with chrome on mobile.
>>
>>
>> Thanks to all who replied.  I agree with David that the options George
>> referred to are for e-mail, not newsgroups.  And for newsgroups, there
>> is no "domain" to put in the text list.
>>
>> Luke may be right that it is some weird interaction.  Can someone else
>> using Thunderbird reply so Luke can see test his hypothesis?
>>
>> In the mean time, since no one else seems to have a problem with my
>> posts, and there isn't an obvious change to make, I am not going to
>> change anything.  But I will double check any of Luke's replies to my
>> posts to see if the attributions are correct.
>>
>
> I've looked a bit closer now - it was helpful that Luke pointed out
> exactly which part he had written but which appeared as /your/ text in
> your post.
>
> There is nothing wrong with your Thunderbird settings. But you made an
> error when replying to Luke. You were trying to snip some of his reply,
> including the start of the paragraph containing "MSRPC...", and only
> keeping that part. Unfortunately, you also deleted the ">" indent
> symbol and thus the bit you left was formatted as coming from you, not Luke.
>
> So nothing dramatic or complicated is going on - you just deleted a
> character too much.

Thank you! I appreciate the extra effort you went to on this. And I
apologize to Luke for me error.

> Of course, the blame still lies with the idiotic and broken google
> groups - if it followed Usenet standards and got its line lengths and
> paragraphs formatted correctly, you would not have been faced with a
> single big line but a proper quoted paragraph, and you'd have seen the
> mistake immediately.
>
> Luke, if at all possible, /please/ get a proper newsreader and proper
> newsserver. (I realise it may not be possible.)

Since he said Chrome on a tiny device, I assume he is using Android. I
know nothing about what apps may be available for a newsreader under
Android (I know the situation with IOS isn't good). But as long as you
only want the text newsgroups, there is at least one good, free
solution, Eternal September. I am a happy, long time user, but have no
other connection with it. There are probably others.

--
- Stephen Fuld
(e-mail address disguised to prevent spam)

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 6:25:19 PM UTC+1, Stephen Fuld wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 9:05 AM, David Brown wrote:
> > So nothing dramatic or complicated is going on - you just deleted a
> > character too much.
> Thank you! I appreciate the extra effort you went to on this.

likewise, David.

> And I apologize to Luke for me error.

it may be more involved: the original de-attribution was before the
one you looked at, David.

> Since he said Chrome on a tiny device, I assume he is using Android.

with google play entirely disabled. it's a 6 year old Asia Samsung N9005,
i currently only install apps with F-Droid, now.

l.

EricP wrote:
> MitchAlsup wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 11:25:13 AM UTC-5, EricP wrote:
>> <<<<<<<
>>> Convert double/single source might be a signalled Nan.
>>> Convert double to single might overflow exponent or underflow. On
>>> x86/x64 those can trigger exceptions.
>> <<<<<<<
>> Yes, any reasonable HW must perform these "little diversions" within the
>> name of convert...........
>
> I didn't want the possibility of FP stores to throw conversion exceptions
> as the x86 can do. That gets into nasty things like the LSQ having to
> sync with and query the FPU control register trap flags.
>
> If a down-convert store of fp64 to fp32 or fp16 value overflows then
> it saturates to the max value representable at the dest size
> (it could saturate to infinity but that didn't seem correct),
> or underflows to zero.

Rather the opposite:

Overflow has to go to Inf, underflow to Zero!

(At least if you want to claim ieee754 compliancy.)
>
> If one doesn't want that behavior then one does a down-conversion check
> beforehand which may trigger exceptions.
>
ok.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

On 7/15/2021 7:57 AM, Stephen Fuld wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 6:53 AM, luke.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 2:44:59 PM UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
>>
>>> His posts are in plain text, not HTML - there is nothing wrong with his
>>> settings as far as I can see. It is google groups that is broken.
>>
>> you can see online what happened:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/comp.arch/c/0n9Ko6wjmHU/m/KNjd3pSKAAAJ
>>
>> steven replied to me, but look carefully: my text starting "MSRPC" is
>> not properly indented, it appears in a subtly different font and colour.
>>
>> replying to that, google groups via a mobile chrome browser was unable
>> to cope, and crushed the indentation.
>>
>> i suspect therefore it is a unique interaction: not one factor but two.
>>
>> i find there is no problem with indentation replying to *anyone
>> else's* messages: it appears to be a unique interaction between
>> Thunderbird and google groups when used with chrome on mobile.
>
>
> Thanks to all who replied.  I agree with David that the options George
> referred to are for e-mail, not newsgroups.  And for newsgroups, there
> is no "domain" to put in the text list.
>
> Luke may be right that it is some weird interaction.  Can someone else
> using Thunderbird reply so Luke can see test his hypothesis?
>
> In the mean time, since no one else seems to have a problem with my
> posts, and there isn't an obvious change to make, I am not going to
> change anything.  But I will double check any of Luke's replies to my
> posts to see if the attributions are correct.
>
>
>

I use Thunderbird, and he hasn't reported any issues when he has
responded to my posts. However, I go through eternal-september, so the
problem may indeed be Google Groups.

On 7/15/2021 2:42 PM, Ivan Godard wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 7:57 AM, Stephen Fuld wrote:
>> On 7/15/2021 6:53 AM, luke.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 2:44:59 PM UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> His posts are in plain text, not HTML - there is nothing wrong with his
>>>> settings as far as I can see. It is google groups that is broken.
>>>
>>> you can see online what happened:
>>>
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/comp.arch/c/0n9Ko6wjmHU/m/KNjd3pSKAAAJ
>>>
>>> steven replied to me, but look carefully: my text starting "MSRPC" is
>>> not properly indented, it appears in a subtly different font and colour.
>>>
>>> replying to that, google groups via a mobile chrome browser was
>>> unable to cope, and crushed the indentation.
>>>
>>> i suspect therefore it is a unique interaction: not one factor but two.
>>>
>>> i find there is no problem with indentation replying to *anyone
>>> else's* messages: it appears to be a unique interaction between
>>> Thunderbird and google groups when used with chrome on mobile.
>>
>>
>> Thanks to all who replied.  I agree with David that the options George
>> referred to are for e-mail, not newsgroups.  And for newsgroups, there
>> is no "domain" to put in the text list.
>>
>> Luke may be right that it is some weird interaction.  Can someone else
>> using Thunderbird reply so Luke can see test his hypothesis?
>>
>> In the mean time, since no one else seems to have a problem with my
>> posts, and there isn't an obvious change to make, I am not going to
>> change anything.  But I will double check any of Luke's replies to my
>> posts to see if the attributions are correct.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I use Thunderbird, and he hasn't reported any issues when he has
> responded to my posts. However, I go through eternal-september, so the
> problem may indeed be Google Groups.

I too use eternal-september.

--
- Stephen Fuld
(e-mail address disguised to prevent spam)

On 15/07/2021 19:19, George Neuner wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 15:44:56 +0200, David Brown
> <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
>> On 15/07/2021 14:48, George Neuner wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:58:53 -0700, Stephen Fuld
>>> <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am using Thunderbird (latest version). There is an option in the
>>>> account compose options to use HTML. I do NOT have that checked. Other
>>>> than that, I don't know how to do what you want me to. If anyone can
>>>> help, please do. But I should note that I think others in this group
>>>> use Google groups, and, in general, no one else does what your system does.
>>>>
>>>> I am willing to experiment, but I don't know what to try.
>>>
>>> *Disclaimer* I have never played with these settings.
>>>
>>> In the general Options under Composition there is a "Send Options"
>>> button. It allows you to declare mail domains that expect messages to
>>> be in plain text. Also you can control what to do when a message has
>>> multiple recipients that expect different formats.
>>>
>>> Perhaps if you set Google / Gmail as a text domain? But you probably
>>> would have to prevent TBird from also sending in HTML format.
>>>
>>
>> That all applies to email, not Usenet. When you post to a newsserver,
>> you are not sending to google or a gmail account.
>
> In TBird it /can/ apply to NN posts also: all that matters is what
> domain is being addressed.

It may be that Thunderbird can send in HTML to newsgroups. But I don't
know what domain settings you would use in the "Send options" box to do
that, as Usenet posts do not send to a domain. Certainly if you are
using, say, news.eternal-september.org as the news server then your
posts have no connection to Google domains when they are sent.

>
>> His posts are in plain text, not HTML - there is nothing wrong with his
>> settings as far as I can see. It is google groups that is broken.
>
> I know Google Groups is broken.
>
> The issue here is what TBird does for NNTP. Certainly HTML /can/ be
> sent via NNTP, and by default TBird sends /email/ in both text and
> HTML format.

Thunderbird sends in both HTML and plain text if you send an email in
HTML, and the receiver email address is not in the "HTML domains" list
(empty by default), and you have the appropriate option for sending in
both formats enabled (it is by default).

So if you have your email set up to send HTML, then /email/ will go in
both formats (unless you hold down shift while clicking "Write",
"Reply", etc., - then you get plain text if HTML is your standard, or
HTML if plain text is your standard). AFAIK, the standard for Usenet
posts is always plain text. But then, I always make sure I have plain
text for normal emails.

>
> What I don't know - and can't seem to find out easily - is whether
> Tbird does the same for NNTP. If so, Google could be confused even
> more than usual. I don't use Tbird for NNTP [I use a dedicated
> client] so I don't know what TBird does with it.
>

All the posts here have been plain text, as far as I have seen. But it
is possible that my server (news.eternal-september.org - the same as
Stephen and many others here) automatically converts any HTML posts to
plain text, and that has thrown me off. It would be surprising, to me
at least, if the server passed on HTML for feeds to other news servers
(including Google) but stripped it for its own client connections.

What Stephen could do here is look in the "Sent" folder of his "Local
folders", where Thunderbird (by default) stores posts sent to the news
server. Using ctrl-U on one of these, he could see the exact source of
the post sent to the server - then we would know for sure if he had sent
HTML or plain text.

Ivan Godard wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 7:57 AM, Stephen Fuld wrote:
>> On 7/15/2021 6:53 AM, luke.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Thanks to all who replied.  I agree with David that the options
>> George referred to are for e-mail, not newsgroups.  And for
>> newsgroups, there is no "domain" to put in the text list.
>>
>> Luke may be right that it is some weird interaction.  Can someone
>> else using Thunderbird reply so Luke can see test his hypothesis?
>>
>> In the mean time, since no one else seems to have a problem with my
>> posts, and there isn't an obvious change to make, I am not going to
>> change anything.  But I will double check any of Luke's replies to my
>> posts to see if the attributions are correct.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I use Thunderbird, and he hasn't reported any issues when he has
> responded to my posts. However, I go through eternal-september, so the
> problem may indeed be Google Groups.

I have used SeaMonkey since it was first forked out from the original
Mozilla all-in-one project, the mail/news part is more or less the same
as Thunderbird.

I'm confident Google Groups is the culprit.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

On 7/16/2021 1:07 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 15/07/2021 19:19, George Neuner wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 15:44:56 +0200, David Brown
>> <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/07/2021 14:48, George Neuner wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:58:53 -0700, Stephen Fuld
>>>> <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am using Thunderbird (latest version). There is an option in the
>>>>> account compose options to use HTML. I do NOT have that checked. Other
>>>>> than that, I don't know how to do what you want me to. If anyone can
>>>>> help, please do. But I should note that I think others in this group
>>>>> use Google groups, and, in general, no one else does what your system does.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am willing to experiment, but I don't know what to try.
>>>>
>>>> *Disclaimer* I have never played with these settings.
>>>>
>>>> In the general Options under Composition there is a "Send Options"
>>>> button. It allows you to declare mail domains that expect messages to
>>>> be in plain text. Also you can control what to do when a message has
>>>> multiple recipients that expect different formats.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps if you set Google / Gmail as a text domain? But you probably
>>>> would have to prevent TBird from also sending in HTML format.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That all applies to email, not Usenet. When you post to a newsserver,
>>> you are not sending to google or a gmail account.
>>
>> In TBird it /can/ apply to NN posts also: all that matters is what
>> domain is being addressed.
>
> It may be that Thunderbird can send in HTML to newsgroups. But I don't
> know what domain settings you would use in the "Send options" box to do
> that, as Usenet posts do not send to a domain. Certainly if you are
> using, say, news.eternal-september.org as the news server then your
> posts have no connection to Google domains when they are sent.
>
>>
>>> His posts are in plain text, not HTML - there is nothing wrong with his
>>> settings as far as I can see. It is google groups that is broken.
>>
>> I know Google Groups is broken.
>>
>> The issue here is what TBird does for NNTP. Certainly HTML /can/ be
>> sent via NNTP, and by default TBird sends /email/ in both text and
>> HTML format.
>
> Thunderbird sends in both HTML and plain text if you send an email in
> HTML, and the receiver email address is not in the "HTML domains" list
> (empty by default), and you have the appropriate option for sending in
> both formats enabled (it is by default).
>
> So if you have your email set up to send HTML, then /email/ will go in
> both formats (unless you hold down shift while clicking "Write",
> "Reply", etc., - then you get plain text if HTML is your standard, or
> HTML if plain text is your standard). AFAIK, the standard for Usenet
> posts is always plain text. But then, I always make sure I have plain
> text for normal emails.
>
>>
>> What I don't know - and can't seem to find out easily - is whether
>> Tbird does the same for NNTP. If so, Google could be confused even
>> more than usual. I don't use Tbird for NNTP [I use a dedicated
>> client] so I don't know what TBird does with it.
>>
>
> All the posts here have been plain text, as far as I have seen. But it
> is possible that my server (news.eternal-september.org - the same as
> Stephen and many others here) automatically converts any HTML posts to
> plain text, and that has thrown me off. It would be surprising, to me
> at least, if the server passed on HTML for feeds to other news servers
> (including Google) but stripped it for its own client connections.
>
> What Stephen could do here is look in the "Sent" folder of his "Local
> folders", where Thunderbird (by default) stores posts sent to the news
> server. Using ctrl-U on one of these, he could see the exact source of
> the post sent to the server - then we would know for sure if he had sent
> HTML or plain text.

Done. See below:

From: Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 15:11:00 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.12.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <scqa39$mab$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

In the third line from the bottom, it clearly says text/plain

--
- Stephen Fuld
(e-mail address disguised to prevent spam)