On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 10:19:11 PM UTC-5, Michael Moroney wrote:
> On 11/21/2021 4:32 AM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about it now!
> That "someone" is myself. As to why did it "take so long", EDT was
> considered obsolete for decades. Nobody was actively maintaining it. I
> just recently posted some comments about fixing it. It was an unofficial
> fix, I just did it one day. But EDT fans may be happy to know that EDT
> was the first editor to run on x86. I forget why EVE/TPU took longer, it
> may have been a compiler bug that affected it but not EDT. A different
> problem prevented EDT from working out of the box however.

Thank you so much!!!!! I cannot thank you enough. Thank you again.

(^_^( (^_^( (^_^( (^_^( (^_^(

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 9:41:00 AM UTC-5, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> On 11/21/2021 10:19 PM, Michael Moroney wrote:
> > On 11/21/2021 4:32 AM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> BTW, why did it take so long for someone to fix the hard-coded 22-line
> >> limit on EDT? How long could it have taken? Well, I'm very happy about it
> >> now!
> >
> > That "someone" is myself. As to why did it "take so long", EDT was
> > considered obsolete for decades. Nobody was actively maintaining it. I just
> > recently posted some comments about fixing it. It was an unofficial fix, I
> > just did it one day. But EDT fans may be happy to know that EDT was the first
> > editor to run on x86. I forget why EVE/TPU took longer, it may have been a
> > compiler bug that affected it but not EDT. A different problem prevented EDT
> > from working out of the box however.
> Both editors were affected by the change on X86 where code is placed in 64-bit
> space by default. This default can be overriden with the LINK qualifier
> /SEGMENT_ATTRIBUTE=CODE=P0.
>
> The problem was that in both editors (and other areas of the operating system
> and layered products), certain data PSECTS were marked as EXECUTABLE. This
> worked on VAX, Alpha, and IA64, and was likely a VAX-era optimization to keep
> certain data co-located with the relevant code. This does not work on X86;
> Reagan can give the details.
>
> Both editors are written in BLISS, and early BLISS compilers (or perhaps the
> GEM-to-LLVM converter) did not deal with the GLOBAL BIND syntax correctly.
>
> I drew the short straw for both editors and had the pleasure of of tracking down
> where in the code was failing, coming up with stripped-down reproducers, and
> bringing my findings to Reagan so he could puzzle it out.
>
> --
> -- Rob

Thank you for including EDT in your fix! Bravo!!!

On 2021-11-22, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
> them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
> them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
> No wasted time. More productive.
>
> The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
>

Because a better tool can come along.

That happened to me when moving from EDT on RSTS/E to EVE on VAX/VMS.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-11-22, alanfe...@gmail.com <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 1:46:21 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> From my original posting:
>>
>> You define them in your EVE initialisation file. Some examples:
>>
>> define key= gold/d wps gold-|
>> define key= gold/r wps gold-r
>> define key=gold-left shift left 16
>> define key=gold-right shift right 16
>
> Thanks.
>
> This posting never made it to Google Groups. Did you post it on the SET DEFAULT thread, perhaps?
>

This was the subject line of the original posting:

Subject: Re: Editors, was: Re: VT keyboard replacement

BTW, looking at my key definitions above, did anyone ever use WPS
itself on VMS ? Was it any good ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 11/23/2021 2:15 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-11-22, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
>> them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
>> them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
>> No wasted time. More productive.
>>
>> The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
>>
>
> Because a better tool can come along.

That is not a valid reason to change. But I don't think you'll ever understand
that.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 11/23/2021 9:03 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 11/23/2021 2:15 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2021-11-22, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors.  That's
>>> fine for
>>> them.  But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it
>>> works for
>>> them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor.  No new
>>> learning curve.
>>> No wasted time.  More productive.
>>>
>>> The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
>>
>> Because a better tool can come along.
>
> That is not a valid reason to change.

It can be.

It is a calculation.

What is the cost (actual cost + value of risk) of migrating
compared to the benefits (cost savings + value new possibilities)
of migrating transformed into present value using some required
rate of return.

Excel cowboys love doing that.

Arne

On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 2:15:59 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-11-22, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
> > them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
> > them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
> > No wasted time. More productive.
> >
> > The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
> >
> Because a better tool can come along.
>
> That happened to me when moving from EDT on RSTS/E to EVE on VAX/VMS.

Question: Do you buy a new smartphone every year? Do you buy a new home computer every year? Each is better than its predecessor. So do you?

Do you buy a new car every year? Each is better than its predecessor.

Have you switched to the Dvorak keyboard? It's clearly a better tool than QWERTY.

>
> Simon.
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 11/24/2021 3:25 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 2:15:59 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2021-11-22, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
>>> them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
>>> them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
>>> No wasted time. More productive.
>>>
>>> The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
>>>
>> Because a better tool can come along.
>>
>> That happened to me when moving from EDT on RSTS/E to EVE on VAX/VMS.
>
> Question: Do you buy a new smartphone every year? Do you buy a new home computer every year? Each is better than its predecessor. So do you?
>
> Do you buy a new car every year? Each is better than its predecessor.

I am not sure that those example support the idea of staying with EDT.

Practically everybody buys new phones, new PC's and new cars.

Not every year, but every 3 or 5 or 10 years.

Nobody suggested changing editor every year, just every 10 or 20 year.

:-)

Arne

In article <619eae83$0$698$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:

> > Question: Do you buy a new smartphone every year? Do you buy a new
> > home computer every year? Each is better than its predecessor. So do
> > you?
> >
> > Do you buy a new car every year? Each is better than its predecessor.
>
> I am not sure that those example support the idea of staying with EDT.
>
> Practically everybody buys new phones, new PC's and new cars.

I use Nokia 3310 and 3330 phones; they must be about 20 years old now.
I did buy a new car about a year ago, after the old one gave out after
more than 16 years and almost 400,000 km. New PC? I have bought one PC
in my life, 20 years ago, for a one-off relatively lucrative project,
and used it for just a couple of years.

But I am married for the second time. :-)

On Wednesday, November 24, 2021 at 4:28:37 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 11/24/2021 3:25 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 2:15:59 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
> >> On 2021-11-22, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> >>> Perhaps some people feel the need to keep changing editors. That's fine for
> >>> them. But other people learn how to do something, and as long as it works for
> >>> them, that is what they turn to when needing an editor. No new learning curve.
> >>> No wasted time. More productive.
> >>>
> >>> The key is, if it is a good tool for a job, why change?
> >>>
> >> Because a better tool can come along.
> >>
> >> That happened to me when moving from EDT on RSTS/E to EVE on VAX/VMS.
> >
> > Question: Do you buy a new smartphone every year? Do you buy a new home computer every year? Each is better than its predecessor. So do you?
> >
> > Do you buy a new car every year? Each is better than its predecessor.
> I am not sure that those example support the idea of staying with EDT.
>
> Practically everybody buys new phones, new PC's and new cars.
>
> Not every year, but every 3 or 5 or 10 years.
>
> Nobody suggested changing editor every year, just every 10 or 20 year.
Well, the point was that normally you don't buy a new phone or car every year just because a better one comes out. So extend that to a lifetime for EDT!

I don't see the big deal here. Simon is free to use EVE or emacs or whatever suits him. I have no problem with that. I'm not saying he should use EDT. But he shouldn't tell me to stop using EDT and switch to EVE, just like I don't tell anyone to switch from the QWERTY to the Dvorak keyboard. Perhaps that is the better example.

> :-)
>
> Arne

On 2021-11-24, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
>
> But I am married for the second time. :-)
>

Did the first one get fed up with having to type in DCL commands to
turn on the TV ? :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

In article <sno2ip$lmh$3@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:

> On 2021-11-24, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
> >
> > But I am married for the second time. :-)
> >
>
> Did the first one get fed up with having to type in DCL commands to
> turn on the TV ? :-)

True story: I wrote a simple menu in DCL, put a VT320 in my son's (from
my first marriage) bedroom, and he could do things like send me email
and so on. [hecks email folder] He was eight-and-one-half then. He
learned to type rather well, came up with the idea of ASCII art on his
own, and it was really practical, since I had moved away for work and
could see him only over a long weekend every two weeks. Some time
later, his mother (my first wife) bought a PC. His reaction: "Mama's
computer doesn't have a proper keyboard!" :-)

Maybe we would never have been divorced if Elliott had shown me how he
got his lawnmower to run on TECO. :-D

On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 8:20:28 AM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-11-24, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <hel...@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
> >
> > But I am married for the second time. :-)
> >
> Did the first one get fed up with having to type in DCL commands to
> turn on the TV ? :-)

It would probably be easier to work the TV with DCL rather than those screwed-up remotes? I don't know what they're like now though, as I don't have cable.

> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 2:02:58 PM UTC-5, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 8:20:28 AM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
> > On 2021-11-24, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <hel...@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > But I am married for the second time. :-)
> > >
> > Did the first one get fed up with having to type in DCL commands to
> > turn on the TV ? :-)
> It would probably be easier to work the TV with DCL rather than those screwed-up remotes? I don't know what they're like now though, as I don't have cable.

It would probably be easier to work the TV with DCL rather than those screwed-up remotes! I don't know what they're like now though, as I don't have cable.

!, not ? (!!!) exclamation point, not question mark!

> > Simon.
> >
> > --
> > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> > Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.