> >> On VMS?
> > No.
> > Unless you want to revive my proposal for how to implement a
> > VMS-compatible layer on top of Linux ...
> The question was about how raw terminal input is done on VMS.
> Or perhaps you didn't read that bit.
In my DEC days, we were using VMS workstations and EDT/EVE/LSE, but
somebody switched to Emacs and raved about it. But it ran in DECwindows
GUI, not on VTs. That's why I never switched to it -- on VMS. It may be
fun to do it on Windows/Linux, but, as they say, you learn only 1.01
editors in your life, so I would never be as productive as I am now.
Yes, the question is still, how does one circumvent those legacy
CTRL strokes that are limiting keyboard features which are no
problem on other platforms.
Just checked, SET TERMINAL/PASTHRU and /NOTTSYNC exist.
Any examples where this is put to good use?

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 02:01:52 -0800, Slo wrote:

>> >> On VMS?
>> > No.
>> > Unless you want to revive my proposal for how to implement a
>> > VMS-compatible layer on top of Linux ...
>> The question was about how raw terminal input is done on VMS.
>> Or perhaps you didn't read that bit.
> In my DEC days, we were using VMS workstations and EDT/EVE/LSE, but
> somebody switched to Emacs and raved about it. But it ran in DECwindows
> GUI, not on VTs. That's why I never switched to it -- on VMS. It may be
> fun to do it on Windows/Linux, but, as they say, you learn only 1.01
> editors in your life, so I would never be as productive as I am now.

I agree! I learned 'ed' on UNIX in 1975. Used variants of that for years,
but got a small EMACS clone that came with my first PC. Still using
EMACS...

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wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
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On 11/9/2021 5:01 AM, Slo wrote:
>>>> On VMS?
>>> No.
>>> Unless you want to revive my proposal for how to implement a
>>> VMS-compatible layer on top of Linux ...
>> The question was about how raw terminal input is done on VMS.
>> Or perhaps you didn't read that bit.
> In my DEC days, we were using VMS workstations and EDT/EVE/LSE, but
> somebody switched to Emacs and raved about it. But it ran in DECwindows
> GUI, not on VTs. That's why I never switched to it -- on VMS.

I am pretty sure that emacs did run (not well but) text mode on VMS
late 80's.

I recall having to first run it once to compile all the Lisp stuff,
dump it to a disk file and then startup on that.

Anybody else remember?

Arne

On 09/11/2021 13:32, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 11/9/2021 5:01 AM, Slo wrote:
>>>>> On VMS?
>>>> No.
>>>> Unless you want to revive my proposal for how to implement a
>>>> VMS-compatible layer on top of Linux ...
>>> The question was about how raw terminal input is done on VMS.
>>> Or perhaps you didn't read that bit.
>> In my DEC days, we were using VMS workstations and EDT/EVE/LSE, but
>> somebody switched to Emacs and raved about it. But it ran in DECwindows
>> GUI, not on VTs. That's why I never switched to it -- on VMS.
>
> I am pretty sure that emacs did run (not well but) text mode on VMS
> late 80's.
>
> I recall having to first run it once to compile all the Lisp stuff,
> dump it to a disk file and then startup on that.
>
> Anybody else remember?
>
> Arne

ISTR building emacs on VMS 6.2 on Alpha in the 90s. Worked fine in text
mode (as it did on HP Unix) but I declined to use it, as EVE was much
better. LSE even better!

On Unix used either vi for simple edits, or a PC editor over SMB.
Sometimes I would use EVE or LSE over NFS

--
Chris

On 2021-11-09, Slo <slovuj@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just checked, SET TERMINAL/PASTHRU and /NOTTSYNC exist.
> Any examples where this is put to good use?

File transfers over a serial port.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 12:23:59 PM UTC+13, I wrote:
> And it does better than that: I just tried running it as a non-GUI app via an SSH
> session to a remote machine, and it was able to pick up the alt and meta key
> modifiers as well.

Of course, “alt” and “meta” are the same thing. That should have been “pick up the alt/meta and super key modifiers as well”.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:38:21 PM UTC+13, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 17:21:30 -0800, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:59 PM UTC+13, Bob Eager wrote:
>>
>>> On VMS?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Unless you want to revive my proposal for how to implement a
>> VMS-compatible layer on top of Linux ...
> The question was about how raw terminal input is done on VMS.
>
> Or perhaps you didn't read that bit.

Only to wonder why, if Linux can do it, why not VMS ...

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:01:54 PM UTC+13, Slo wrote:
>... as they say, you learn only 1.01 editors in your life ...

I have learned more than that. I previously mentioned VTED, our local TECO-based editor back in my first/second-year days. I even implemented a similar editor, in Pascal, for a third-year programming project. Then EDT on the VAX (spit). Then TPU/EVE (yay). There was something called VEW on a Wicat, or was it CTOS, system at my first post-graduation job (see how little I remember of it). MPW on the Macintosh, which I preferred to CodeWarrior. Then vi, because that was the only thing you could be sure would be present on every proprietary Unix system. Then when Unix was pushed aside by Linux, and I could be sure Emacs would always be available, I switched to that.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:01:54 PM UTC+13, Slo wrote:
> In my DEC days, we were using VMS workstations and EDT/EVE/LSE, but
> somebody switched to Emacs and raved about it. But it ran in DECwindows
> GUI, not on VTs.

That surprises me, considering Emacs was born on text terminals, not on GUIs, and only received GUI capabilities later.

In fact, disagreement over how to add the GUI support was a core factor in the schism between GNU Emacs and Lucid Emacs/XEmacs. But that didn’t happen until the 1990s sometime, as I recall.

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 7:52:56 AM UTC+13, Simon Clubley wrote:
>
> On 2021-11-09, Slo <slo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just checked, SET TERMINAL/PASTHRU and /NOTTSYNC exist.
>> Any examples where this is put to good use?
>>
> File transfers over a serial port.

Actually, I think Kermit manages that with minimal reliance on non-printable characters.

A better example might be something like PPP, which I think makes more use of all eight bits of each byte.

On 11/9/2021 4:06 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:38:21 PM UTC+13, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 17:21:30 -0800, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:59 PM UTC+13, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>
>>>> On VMS?
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> Unless you want to revive my proposal for how to implement a
>>> VMS-compatible layer on top of Linux ...
>> The question was about how raw terminal input is done on VMS.
>>
>> Or perhaps you didn't read that bit.
>
> Only to wonder why, if Linux can do it, why not VMS ...
>

Few things are impossible. The real questions are cost and value.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 1:21:17 PM UTC+13, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 11/9/2021 4:06 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Only to wonder why, if Linux can do it, why not VMS ...
>>
> Few things are impossible. The real questions are cost and value.

The cost and value of reinventing the wheel? Of bringing something to VMS that Linux already has?

Versus the cost of bringing VMS (in some form) to Linux, where all these things come as standard?

On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 3:20:54 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-11-04, Arne Vajhøj <ar...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> > On 11/4/2021 12:14 PM, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
> >> I ran across this keyboard
> >>
> >> https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/
> >>
> >> and am considering buying it (it's 129$) as a replacement for my LK464
> >> keyboard that I use with Linux for EDT on OpenVMS. I was wondering if
> >> anyone has any experience with it.
> >
> > I don't know it, but the fact that there is only 5 keys over
> > the arrow keys does not appeal to me.
> >
> Agreed, very strongly. (Note that the Insert button is actually on the
> top row of the keyboard where the function keys are.)
>
> If Jeffrey is thinking of buying that, then I think a normal high-quality
> PC keyboard would probably be better as it's much closer in layout to
> a DEC keyboard than the above keyboard is.
>
> I have used both emacs in EDT keypad mode and EVE on VMS exclusively
> from a PC keyboard for over 15 years and it works very well indeed.
>
> In fact, I actually prefer a high-quality PC keyboard over a DEC
> keyboard because my fingers "flow" over the PC keyboard much easier
> and I still remember just how much less effort there was typing on
> a good PC keyboard compared to a DEC keyboard.
>
> I might upset a few people around here saying this, but in other words,
> I found the ergonomics of a high-quality PC keyboard to actually be
> better than a DEC keyboard.

Well, there are a wide variety of PC keyboards. I thought the Gateway ones were pretty good. But that's in the past. And Compaq had a pretty good one too (but not sold separately!), IIRC. Then there's the famous IBM model that a lot of people are great fans of. Not easy to find, I don't think. I liked my old Kensington keyboard. I'm not terribly fond of the others I've tried. So who makes these "high-quality PC keyboards"? I'm almost surprised there are _any_ "high-quality" keyboards.

AEF

>
> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:21:17 PM UTC-5, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 11/9/2021 4:06 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:38:21 PM UTC+13, Bob Eager wrote:
> >> On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 17:21:30 -0800, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:59 PM UTC+13, Bob Eager wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On VMS?
> >>>
> >>> No.
> >>>
> >>> Unless you want to revive my proposal for how to implement a
> >>> VMS-compatible layer on top of Linux ...
> >> The question was about how raw terminal input is done on VMS.
> >>
> >> Or perhaps you didn't read that bit.
> >
> > Only to wonder why, if Linux can do it, why not VMS ...
> >
> Few things are impossible. The real questions are cost and value.
>
> --
> David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> 170 Grimplin Road
> Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Price, quality, speed. Choose two.

AEF

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:14:56 -0800, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:

> Well, there are a wide variety of PC keyboards. I thought the Gateway
> ones were pretty good. But that's in the past. And Compaq had a pretty
> good one too (but not sold separately!), IIRC. Then there's the famous
> IBM model that a lot of people are great fans of. Not easy to find, I
> don't think.

These people took over manufacturing...

https://www.pckeyboard.com/

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 2021-12-16, alanfe...@gmail.com <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 3:20:54 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
>
> Well, there are a wide variety of PC keyboards. I thought the Gateway ones were pretty good. But that's in the past. And Compaq had a pretty good one too (but not sold separately!), IIRC. Then there's the famous IBM model that a lot of people are great fans of. Not easy to find, I don't think. I liked my old Kensington keyboard. I'm not terribly fond of the others I've tried. So who makes these "high-quality PC keyboards"? I'm almost surprised there are _any_ "high-quality" keyboards.
>

At home, I have a Logitech keyboard that's at least a decade old
and it's still working just fine. Typing on it is very smooth.

Given how personal keyboards are, it's the kind of thing where you
want to try them out in a computer shop or store before choosing one.

Just make sure you don't get one of the mini style keyboards with
no travel on the keys. I don't get on at all well with that kind of
keyboard. :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-12-17, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
> On 2021-12-16, alanfe...@gmail.com <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 3:20:54 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> Well, there are a wide variety of PC keyboards. I thought the Gateway ones were pretty good. But that's in the past. And Compaq had a pretty good one too (but not sold separately!), IIRC. Then there's the famous IBM model that a lot of people are great fans of. Not easy to find, I don't think. I liked my old Kensington keyboard. I'm not terribly fond of the others I've tried. So who makes these "high-quality PC keyboards"? I'm almost surprised there are _any_ "high-quality" keyboards.
>>
>
> At home, I have a Logitech keyboard that's at least a decade old
> and it's still working just fine. Typing on it is very smooth.
>

I should also mention that I use a KVM multiplexer unit to switch the
keyboard and display between multiple systems. If anyone is thinking
of getting one, make sure that you get a good quality multiplexer
instead of one of the cheaper ones that can mess up your display
quality (assuming those cheaper units are still around).

Simon.

> Given how personal keyboards are, it's the kind of thing where you
> want to try them out in a computer shop or store before choosing one.
>
> Just make sure you don't get one of the mini style keyboards with
> no travel on the keys. I don't get on at all well with that kind of
> keyboard. :-)
>
> Simon.
>

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.