On 12/14/2021 8:15 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/14/2021 8:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/14/21 7:41 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/14/2021 7:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> On 12/14/21 5:22 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/14/2021 4:26 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>>>>>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>>>> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
>>>>>>> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
>>>>>>> actually could be in it for the money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
>>>>>> medicine would go into it only for the money.  Anyone smart enough to
>>>>>> study medicine successfully could make much more with much less
>>>>>> effort
>>>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>>>
>>>> Are you sure of that?  McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>>>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>>>
>>> Did you notice "per month"?
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>
>> Yes.
>> And according to Google that works out to be $2400 a month or about
>> $28,000 a year.
>
> Weird.
>
> My calculators says 192-216 K$ per year.

IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
PROGRAM-ID. BG.

ENVIRONMENT DIVISION.
INPUT-OUTPUT SECTION.

DATA DIVISION.
FILE SECTION.

WORKING-STORAGE SECTION.
01 LOW-MONTH-KDOLLAR PIC 9(4)V9(2) PACKED-DECIMAL.
01 LOW-MONTH-DOLLAR PIC 9(7)V9(2) PACKED-DECIMAL.
01 LOW-YEAR-KDOLLAR PIC 9(4)V9(2) PACKED-DECIMAL.
01 LOW-YEAR-DOLLAR PIC 9(7)V9(2) PACKED-DECIMAL.
01 HIGH-MONTH-KDOLLAR PIC 9(4)V9(2) PACKED-DECIMAL.
01 HIGH-MONTH-DOLLAR PIC 9(7)V9(2) PACKED-DECIMAL.
01 HIGH-YEAR-KDOLLAR PIC 9(4)V9(2) PACKED-DECIMAL.
01 HIGH-YEAR-DOLLAR PIC 9(7)V9(2) PACKED-DECIMAL.

PROCEDURE DIVISION.
MAIN-PARAGRAPH.
MOVE 16 TO LOW-MONTH-KDOLLAR
MOVE 18 TO HIGH-MONTH-KDOLLAR
DISPLAY LOW-MONTH-KDOLLAR "-" HIGH-MONTH-KDOLLAR " K$ per month"
COMPUTE LOW-MONTH-DOLLAR = LOW-MONTH-KDOLLAR * 1000
COMPUTE HIGH-MONTH-DOLLAR = HIGH-MONTH-KDOLLAR * 1000
DISPLAY LOW-MONTH-DOLLAR "-" HIGH-MONTH-DOLLAR " dollar per month"
COMPUTE LOW-YEAR-KDOLLAR = 12 * LOW-MONTH-KDOLLAR
COMPUTE HIGH-YEAR-KDOLLAR = 12 * HIGH-MONTH-KDOLLAR
DISPLAY LOW-YEAR-KDOLLAR "-" HIGH-YEAR-KDOLLAR " K$ per year"
COMPUTE LOW-YEAR-DOLLAR = LOW-YEAR-KDOLLAR * 1000
COMPUTE HIGH-YEAR-DOLLAR = HIGH-YEAR-KDOLLAR * 1000
DISPLAY LOW-YEAR-DOLLAR "-" HIGH-YEAR-DOLLAR " dollar per year"
STOP RUN.

:-)

Arne

In article <spb9jm$rk2$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
<davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:

> > My physician is not required to do anything illegal in order to do all
> > that is possible.
>
> Ok, let's look at that. Suppose there is something that is illegal that your
> doctor could help you with. Would you advocate that you not get needed help,
> or, would you figure that those who made it illegal were in error?
>
> Let's consider some terminal, weeks to live, and in great pain. Some drugs are
> illegal, but could help with the pain. Should a doctor do all possible,
> including illegal drugs, to ease the pain and suffering?

At least where I live, that is not an issue. I don't think that there
is anything which could help me which is illegal. And even in countries
where euthanasia is not legal, in the case of terminally ill patients it
is allowed to give enough morphium or whatever that the patient dies as
a side effect of pain relief so to speak. It's really, really not an
issue.

In article <j1spkmFek1tU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:

> > In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
> > 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>
> Are you sure of that? McDonald's pays more over here. That is
> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.

16 to 18 thousand dollars per month? You can't earn that flipping
burgers.

All the same, I think that Arne's numbers are too high. Maybe it is
Danish crowns or includes all the costs of the position, not just the
salary.

In article <j1stj6Ff9q7U1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:

> >>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
> >>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
> >>
> >> Are you sure of that? McDonald's pays more over here. That is
> >> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
> >
> > Did you notice "per month"?
> >
> > :-)
> >
>
> Yes.
> And according to Google that works out to be $2400 a month or about
> $28,000 a year.

Did Arne write dollars or crowns?

> The $15 an hour minimum that people bitch is insufficient to live on
> works out to about $31,000 a year.
>
> And, based on my own personal experience living in Europe in the past
> it ain't cheaper over there.

It depends on where you live and what your lifestyle is. Consider that
you don't have to put anything aside for medical expenses, that
university education is free for all your children, and so on.

On 12/14/21 8:15 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/14/2021 8:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/14/21 7:41 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/14/2021 7:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> On 12/14/21 5:22 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/14/2021 4:26 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>>>>>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>>>> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
>>>>>>> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
>>>>>>> actually could be in it for the money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
>>>>>> medicine would go into it only for the money.  Anyone smart enough to
>>>>>> study medicine successfully could make much more with much less
>>>>>> effort
>>>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>>>
>>>> Are you sure of that?  McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>>>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>>>
>>> Did you notice "per month"?
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>
>> Yes.
>> And according to Google that works out to be $2400 a month or about
>> $28,000 a year.
>
> Weird.
>
> My calculators says 192-216 K$ per year.

And Google says that 192K Danish Krone is $29,000 US.

>
>> The $15 an hour minimum that people bitch is insufficient to live on
>> works out to about $31,000 a year.
>>
>> And, based on my own personal experience living in Europe in the past
>> it ain't cheaper over there.
>
> It isn't but the doctors will survive.

bill

On 12/15/21 12:45 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <j1stj6Ff9q7U1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>>>
>>>> Are you sure of that? McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>>>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>>>
>>> Did you notice "per month"?
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>
>> Yes.
>> And according to Google that works out to be $2400 a month or about
>> $28,000 a year.
>
> Did Arne write dollars or crowns?

He used a dollar sign but put a K there. I assumed Krone but could be
wrong. Does Denmark also have dollars?

>
>> The $15 an hour minimum that people bitch is insufficient to live on
>> works out to about $31,000 a year.
>>
>> And, based on my own personal experience living in Europe in the past
>> it ain't cheaper over there.
>
> It depends on where you live and what your lifestyle is. Consider that
> you don't have to put anything aside for medical expenses, that
> university education is free for all your children, and so on.

Still seems an awfully small return for all the education the
field requires.

bill

On 12/15/21 12:43 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <j1spkmFek1tU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>
>> Are you sure of that? McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>
> 16 to 18 thousand dollars per month? You can't earn that flipping
> burgers.

As I said, if it's Krone that's only about 2K a month in US dollars.
The $15/hour minimum wage here is $2400 a month.

>
> All the same, I think that Arne's numbers are too high. Maybe it is
> Danish crowns or includes all the costs of the position, not just the
> salary.
I based my numbers on it being Krone as I wasn't aware of Denmark
having a dollar that was actually worth more.

bill

In article <j1sp48FehaaU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>On 12/14/21 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>>> illegal. No more, no less.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>>>
>>
>> Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
>> business. Some senior politicians and business people keep wanting to
>> change that, but whenever they do, they get massive pushback.
>
>Ah... European medicine.
>
>I had a dislocated finger fixed by a British Army doctor once.
>I showed him the finger. He grabbed my hand. Yanked the end
>of the finger out and pushed it back into place. I hope they
>don't use the same technique for more serious stuff. Over here
>they usually numb it at least a little. Oh well. At least I
>didn't pass out but I can assure you the fix hurt way more than
>the injury. :-)

Ouch. I had 34 bones fractured, some compound, and spent hours in
surgery having them set. I'm pretty sure I was happy I was asleep!

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

On 12/15/2021 8:01 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/15/21 12:43 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <j1spkmFek1tU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>>
>>> Are you sure of that?  McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>>
>> 16 to 18 thousand dollars per month?  You can't earn that flipping
>> burgers.
>
> As I said, if it's Krone that's only about 2K a month in US dollars.
> The $15/hour minimum wage here is $2400 a month.
>> All the same, I think that Arne's numbers are too high.  Maybe it is
>> Danish crowns or includes all the costs of the position, not just the
>> salary.
> I based my numbers on it being Krone as I wasn't aware of Denmark
> having a dollar that was actually worth more.

Well $ means dollars not kroner. So when I write K$ I mean 1000 dollars
not 1000 kroner.

I did the translation from danish kroner to US dollars (BTW using an
average exchange rate not todays) to make it easier for people
(everyone knows approx. what a dollar is worth - not so many knows
what a krone is worth).

Arne

On 12/15/2021 12:43 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <j1spkmFek1tU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>
>> Are you sure of that? McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>
> 16 to 18 thousand dollars per month? You can't earn that flipping
> burgers.
>
> All the same, I think that Arne's numbers are too high. Maybe it is
> Danish crowns or includes all the costs of the position, not just the
> salary.

The numbers are right. The fine print is that it is including pension
and converted to dollar using an average exchange rate.

Danish doctors are well paid. I don't have a problem with that - they
have extremely long education and huge responsibility. But it is not
necessarily a career path chosen because they are great humanitarians.

Arne

Den 2021-12-15 kl. 13:58, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
> On 12/15/21 12:45 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <j1stj6Ff9q7U1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>>>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you sure of that?  McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>>>>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>>>>
>>>> Did you notice "per month"?
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>> And according to Google that works out to be $2400 a month or about
>>> $28,000 a year.
>>
>> Did Arne write dollars or crowns?
>
> He used a dollar sign but put a K there.

And how do *you* write a short-hand for "one thousand dollars"?

I do not understand how you could misunderstand that...
It some some fun anyway... :-)

> I assumed Krone

That is written DKR, just like USD. Maybe it had been clearer
to say "192 K USD" instead of using the common "$" sign.
But I thought that anywone would read "$" as "US dollars".

Yes, "$" is used for some other "dollars" apart from USD also,
but not for any other non-dollar currency, as far as I know.

> but could be
> wrong.  Does Denmark also have dollars?

I think that you very well know that it doesn't.
And that makes it even more weird that you managed to
misinterpret what Arne wrote.

In article <61b9f80a$0$697$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:

> The numbers are right. The fine print is that it is including pension
> and converted to dollar using an average exchange rate.

Right, as I suspected: it is the total yearly cost to the employer, i.e.
the employee's gross salary plus contributions made by the employer.

One could certainly live very comfortably on that salary, even in
Denmark.

On 12/15/21 8:08 AM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <j1sp48FehaaU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 12/14/21 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>>>> illegal. No more, no less.
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
>>> business. Some senior politicians and business people keep wanting to
>>> change that, but whenever they do, they get massive pushback.
>>
>> Ah... European medicine.
>>
>> I had a dislocated finger fixed by a British Army doctor once.
>> I showed him the finger. He grabbed my hand. Yanked the end
>> of the finger out and pushed it back into place. I hope they
>> don't use the same technique for more serious stuff. Over here
>> they usually numb it at least a little. Oh well. At least I
>> didn't pass out but I can assure you the fix hurt way more than
>> the injury. :-)
>
> Ouch. I had 34 bones fractured, some compound, and spent hours in
> surgery having them set. I'm pretty sure I was happy I was asleep!
>

I suppose in the all fairness I should also mention that several
years before this, also in Germany, I had my thumb dislocated while
skating at the rink In Zweibrücken. The hockey coach "fixed" it.
Pretty much the same way. :-)

bill

On 12/15/21 9:40 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2021-12-15 kl. 13:58, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>> On 12/15/21 12:45 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <j1stj6Ff9q7U1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>>>>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you sure of that?  McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>>>>>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you notice "per month"?
>>>>>
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>> And according to Google that works out to be $2400 a month or about
>>>> $28,000 a year.
>>>
>>> Did Arne write dollars or crowns?
>>
>> He used a dollar sign but put a K there.
>
> And how do *you* write a short-hand for "one thousand dollars"?
>
> I do not understand how you could misunderstand that...
> It some some fun anyway... :-)
>
>
>> I assumed Krone
>
> That is written DKR, just like USD. Maybe it had been clearer
> to say "192 K USD" instead of using the common "$" sign.
> But I thought that anywone would read "$" as "US dollars".
>
> Yes, "$" is used for some other "dollars" apart from USD also,
> but not for any other non-dollar currency, as far as I know.

Sorry, I didn't realize Danes were paid in US Dollars.

>
>
>> but could be
>> wrong.  Does Denmark also have dollars?
>
> I think that you very well know that it doesn't.
> And that makes it even more weird that you managed to
> misinterpret what Arne wrote.If you are saying he ma\eant
>

I have seen people use the "$" with a prefix/suffix to signify
currency where the national standard is not the dollar.

If you are saying he meant that as 16K US Dollars than the
doctors over there are making a lot. In which case I would
think that just like over here it is the money that attracts
them and not some notion of public service.

bill

On 2021-12-14, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
>
> If no paying customer complains, can it really be a huge problem for
> commercial customers? (It is, of course, a problem for hobbyists,
> unless they have a commercial license for VAX or Alpha and enough backup
> hardware.)
>

Don't forget the formal complaints and attempts at discussions from
the French customers.

Also, don't forget VSI's response. :-(

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 12/15/2021 11:33 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <61b9f80a$0$697$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> The numbers are right. The fine print is that it is including pension
>> and converted to dollar using an average exchange rate.
>
> Right, as I suspected: it is the total yearly cost to the employer, i.e.
> the employee's gross salary plus contributions made by the employer.

It is simply gross salary. Per danish definition of that.

> One could certainly live very comfortably on that salary, even in
> Denmark.

Yep.

Arne

On 2021-12-14, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I had a dislocated finger fixed by a British Army doctor once.
> I showed him the finger. He grabbed my hand. Yanked the end
> of the finger out and pushed it back into place. I hope they
> don't use the same technique for more serious stuff. Over here
> they usually numb it at least a little. Oh well. At least I
> didn't pass out but I can assure you the fix hurt way more than
> the injury. :-)
>

:-)

$ set response/mode=good_natured

If it makes you feel any better, don't forget this is the same military
that just defeated your Marines in some recent wargames. :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 12/15/21 1:56 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-12-14, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I had a dislocated finger fixed by a British Army doctor once.
>> I showed him the finger. He grabbed my hand. Yanked the end
>> of the finger out and pushed it back into place. I hope they
>> don't use the same technique for more serious stuff. Over here
>> they usually numb it at least a little. Oh well. At least I
>> didn't pass out but I can assure you the fix hurt way more than
>> the injury. :-)
>>
>
> :-)
>
> $ set response/mode=good_natured
>
> If it makes you feel any better, don't forget this is the same military
> that just defeated your Marines in some recent wargames. :-)
>

I certainly have no problem with the British military. I was
stationed with them for three years and it was one of my more
enjoyable tours. I just thought the medical given was somewhat
primitive. Luckily, it was better for my wife and daughter
when she was born at the RAF Wegberg Hospital. :-)

bill

четверг, 9 декабря 2021 г. в 08:40:07 UTC+3, Joerg Hoppe:
> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?
>
> thanks,
> Joerg
Hi !

VMS 4.0 listings is available on the RUtracker. Just FYI.
U can publish the PDF on the site. Feel free contact me if u need help with torrent (zator--at--yandex.ru).
Also, please send me the PDF to the e-mail.

Thanks!