Hi,

I managed to build and use VMS Mosaic 4.2 on VSI OpenVMS and OpenSSL 111.
Most changes was to the buildscript. I think I only changed one thing in
http.c regarding newer SSL.

Is this something that interests someone?

I don't know DCL enough to change the build file properly, I just
commented out parts that didn't work (Motif and SSL).

--
Best regards,
Michael Grunditz

In article <01d8ef9e59.mickenx@michael.grunditz.gmail.com>, Michael
Grunditz <michael.grunditz4@gmail.com> writes:

> I managed to build and use VMS Mosaic 4.2 on VSI OpenVMS and OpenSSL 111.
> Most changes was to the buildscript. I think I only changed one thing in
> http.c regarding newer SSL.
>
> Is this something that interests someone?
>
> I don't know DCL enough to change the build file properly, I just
> commented out parts that didn't work (Motif and SSL).

I'm struggling to understand the concept of a graphical web browser on
VMS without Motif.

With regard to SSL: since most sites are http these days, without SSL
it's probably a non-starter.

>> I don't know DCL enough to change the build file properly, I just
>> commented out parts that didn't work (Motif and SSL).

> I'm struggling to understand the concept of a graphical web browser on
> VMS without Motif.

It works , it is just that something changed in how to guess which version
it is .. or VSI upped the version. That version checking is what I
commented out and also hardcoded which version to link with.

> With regard to SSL: since most sites are http these days, without SSL
> it's probably a non-starter.

SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1

*very happy*

Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.

Sorry if I unclear ..

--
Best regards,
Michael Grunditz

Michael Grunditz wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> I managed to build and use VMS Mosaic 4.2 on VSI OpenVMS and OpenSSL 111.

Interesting.
How does VMS Mosaic 4.2 relate to the last "official" release NCSA X
Mosaic 2.7b5?

On 12/22/2021 5:20 PM, Michael Grunditz wrote:
>>> I don't know DCL enough to change the build file properly, I just
>>> commented out parts that didn't work (Motif and SSL).
>
>> I'm struggling to understand the concept of a graphical web browser on
>> VMS without Motif.
>
> It works , it is just that something changed in how to guess which version
> it is .. or VSI upped the version. That version checking is what I
> commented out and also hardcoded which version to link with.

It's still Motif V1.7, with some letter after the "7".

We likely upped the letter by one from the last release from HPE.

We definitely did not change the mechanism for maintaining the version, so
whatever method was used to determine the version will still definitely work.

--
-- Rob

In article <9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
<michael.grunditz4@gmail.com> writes:

> >> I don't know DCL enough to change the build file properly, I just
> >> commented out parts that didn't work (Motif and SSL).
>
> > I'm struggling to understand the concept of a graphical web browser on
> > VMS without Motif.
>
> It works , it is just that something changed in how to guess which version
> it is .. or VSI upped the version. That version checking is what I
> commented out and also hardcoded which version to link with.
>
> > With regard to SSL: since most sites are http these days, without SSL
> > it's probably a non-starter.
>
> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>
> *very happy*
>
> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.

In that case, it does sound interesting.

What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical system
(Windows, Apple, Linux)?

On 12/22/21 23:50, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article<9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
> <michael.grunditz4@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>> I don't know DCL enough to change the build file properly, I just
>>>> commented out parts that didn't work (Motif and SSL).
>>
>>> I'm struggling to understand the concept of a graphical web browser on
>>> VMS without Motif.
>>
>> It works , it is just that something changed in how to guess which version
>> it is .. or VSI upped the version. That version checking is what I
>> commented out and also hardcoded which version to link with.
>>
>>> With regard to SSL: since most sites are http these days, without SSL
>>> it's probably a non-starter.
>>
>> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>>
>> *very happy*
>>
>> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.
>
> In that case, it does sound interesting.
>
> What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical system
> (Windows, Apple, Linux)?
>

Anything to do with later versions of java, which most sites seem
dependent on now. Did try early Mosaic on an old Sun system some
years ago and barely worked with anything, though Google tried it's
best...

Chris

On 12/22/2021 6:30 PM, Michael Kraemer @ home wrote:
> Michael Grunditz wrote:
>> I managed to build and use VMS Mosaic 4.2 on VSI OpenVMS and OpenSSL 111.
>
> Interesting.
> How does VMS Mosaic 4.2 relate to the last "official" release NCSA X
> Mosaic 2.7b5?

It is based on it.

George Cook did a lot of work on it in the late 90's (and maybe
early 00's).

You can check the file changes.vms to see what was changed.

Arne

On 12/22/2021 6:50 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
> <michael.grunditz4@gmail.com> writes:
>> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>>
>> *very happy*
>>
>> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.
>
> In that case, it does sound interesting.
>
> What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical system
> (Windows, Apple, Linux)?

JavaScript support, HTML 5 support, lot of UX.

Arne

On 12/22/2021 7:02 PM, chris wrote:
> On 12/22/21 23:50, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article<9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
>>> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>>>
>>> *very happy*
>>>
>>> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.
>>
>> In that case, it does sound interesting.
>>
>> What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical system
>> (Windows, Apple, Linux)?
>
> Anything to do with later versions of java, which most sites seem
> dependent on now. Did try early Mosaic on an old Sun system some
> years ago and barely worked with anything, though Google tried it's
> best...

It does not support any version of Java and neither do any
modern browser (Java applets are totally dead).

It does not support any version of JavaScript either - and
that is used by almost all web sites today.

Arne

On 12/23/21 00:13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2021 7:02 PM, chris wrote:
>> On 12/22/21 23:50, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article<9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
>>>> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>>>>
>>>> *very happy*
>>>>
>>>> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.
>>>
>>> In that case, it does sound interesting.
>>>
>>> What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical system
>>> (Windows, Apple, Linux)?
>>
>> Anything to do with later versions of java, which most sites seem
>> dependent on now. Did try early Mosaic on an old Sun system some
>> years ago and barely worked with anything, though Google tried it's
>> best...
>
> It does not support any version of Java and neither do any
> modern browser (Java applets are totally dead).
>
> It does not support any version of JavaScript either - and
> that is used by almost all web sites today.
>
> Arne

That was a global thing about java, which includes script.

Pretty dead in the water really, unless the page is basic
html...

Chris

On 12/22/2021 7:47 PM, chris wrote:
> On 12/23/21 00:13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/22/2021 7:02 PM, chris wrote:
>>> On 12/22/21 23:50, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>> In article<9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
>>>>> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>>>>>
>>>>> *very happy*
>>>>>
>>>>> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.
>>>>
>>>> In that case, it does sound interesting.
>>>>
>>>> What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical system
>>>> (Windows, Apple, Linux)?
>>>
>>> Anything to do with later versions of java, which most sites seem
>>> dependent on now. Did try early Mosaic on an old Sun system some
>>> years ago and barely worked with anything, though Google tried it's
>>> best...
>>
>> It does not support any version of Java and neither do any
>> modern browser (Java applets are totally dead).
>>
>> It does not support any version of JavaScript either - and
>> that is used by almost all web sites today.
>
> That was a global thing about java, which includes script.

Java and JavaScript are two completely different languages.

Java support in browsers and JavaScript support in browsers
are totally independent.

"Java including JavaScript" is similar to "Fortran including Cobol".

> Pretty dead in the water really, unless the page is basic
> html...

Mosaic? Yes.

Arne

On 12/22/21 5:33 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> On 12/22/2021 5:20 PM, Michael Grunditz wrote:
>>>> I don't know DCL enough to change the build file properly, I just
>>>> commented out parts that didn't work (Motif and SSL).
>>
>>> I'm struggling to understand the concept of a graphical web browser on
>>> VMS without Motif.
>>
>> It works , it is just that something changed in how to guess which
>> version
>> it is .. or VSI upped the version. That version checking is what I
>> commented out and also hardcoded which version to link with.
>
> It's still Motif V1.7, with some letter after the "7".
>
> We likely upped the letter by one from the last release from HPE.
>
> We definitely did not change the mechanism for maintaining the version, so
> whatever method was used to determine the version will still definitely
> work.

I think he meant the OpenSSL versions, though his response is ambiguous
given the question asked. OpenSSL product names went from SSL to SSL1
to (bizarrely) SSL111, the last of which has an extra "1" if the product
name is expected to persist across binary-compatible releases of
OpenSSL. If there is something after OpenSSL 1.1.1z before 3.x.x
becomes available, then VSI has created for itself a product name conundrum.

Even now, if you want to find the latest available at build time, you
have to hunt for include files and such based on SSL111, SSL1, and SSL
in sequence.

In message <61c3bf49$0$704$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

> On 12/22/2021 7:02 PM, chris wrote:
>> On 12/22/21 23:50, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article<9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
>>>> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>>>>
>>>> *very happy*
>>>>
>>>> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.
>>>
>>> In that case, it does sound interesting.
>>>
>>> What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical system
>>> (Windows, Apple, Linux)?

A lot if things are missing compared to modern browsers. But it serves my
need.

> It does not support any version of Java and neither do any
> modern browser (Java applets are totally dead).

> It does not support any version of JavaScript either - and
> that is used by almost all web sites today.

True. I use the NetSurf as my primary browser, and that hasn't JavaScript.
There are many sites still usable. The main objective for running VMS
Mosaic on my XP900 is to access VMS freeware sites. I know that most of
them also is ftp, but browsing makes them more accessible. I am a RISC OS
kernel hacker, so I am pretty used to it.

Here is a little screen dump with Mosaic 4.0 (before I found 4.2 (on
Gopher !))

http://safir.amigaos.se/bildgalleri/users2/18431_cdebg.jpg

Michael Grunditz wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> I managed to build and use VMS Mosaic 4.2 on VSI OpenVMS and OpenSSL 111.
> Most changes was to the buildscript. I think I only changed one thing in
> http.c regarding newer SSL.
>
> Is this something that interests someone?
>
> I don't know DCL enough to change the build file properly, I just
> commented out parts that didn't work (Motif and SSL).
>

Sure interested, and not only to update some broken links on my web-site
on freeware software for openVMS.
see
http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/software2.html#MOSAIC

Jouk

On 12/23/21 00:52, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2021 7:47 PM, chris wrote:
>> On 12/23/21 00:13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2021 7:02 PM, chris wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/21 23:50, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>> In article<9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
>>>>>> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *very happy*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.
>>>>>
>>>>> In that case, it does sound interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical
>>>>> system
>>>>> (Windows, Apple, Linux)?
>>>>
>>>> Anything to do with later versions of java, which most sites seem
>>>> dependent on now. Did try early Mosaic on an old Sun system some
>>>> years ago and barely worked with anything, though Google tried it's
>>>> best...
>>>
>>> It does not support any version of Java and neither do any
>>> modern browser (Java applets are totally dead).
>>>
>>> It does not support any version of JavaScript either - and
>>> that is used by almost all web sites today.
>>
>> That was a global thing about java, which includes script.
>
> Java and JavaScript are two completely different languages.
>
> Java support in browsers and JavaScript support in browsers
> are totally independent.
>
> "Java including JavaScript" is similar to "Fortran including Cobol".
>
>> Pretty dead in the water really, unless the page is basic
>> html...
>
> Mosaic? Yes.
>
> Arne
>
>

Thanks for the tutorial, but quite aware of all that and it's considered
bad manners to lecture people at all, even more so when unaware of their
background. Mosaic was the first browser ever used here, followed by
Netscape, then Firefox up to the present.

Fortran including Cobol indeed :-)...

Chris

On 12/23/2021 2:25 PM, chris wrote:
> On 12/23/21 00:52, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/22/2021 7:47 PM, chris wrote:
>>> On 12/23/21 00:13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2021 7:02 PM, chris wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/21 23:50, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>>> In article<9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
>>>>>>> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *very happy*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In that case, it does sound interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical
>>>>>> system
>>>>>> (Windows, Apple, Linux)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Anything to do with later versions of java, which most sites seem
>>>>> dependent on now. Did try early Mosaic on an old Sun system some
>>>>> years ago and barely worked with anything, though Google tried it's
>>>>> best...
>>>>
>>>> It does not support any version of Java and neither do any
>>>> modern browser (Java applets are totally dead).
>>>>
>>>> It does not support any version of JavaScript either - and
>>>> that is used by almost all web sites today.
>>>
>>> That was a global thing about java, which includes script.
>>
>> Java and JavaScript are two completely different languages.
>>
>> Java support in browsers and JavaScript support in browsers
>> are totally independent.
>>
>> "Java including JavaScript" is similar to "Fortran including Cobol".
>>
>>> Pretty dead in the water really, unless the page is basic
>>> html...
>>
>> Mosaic? Yes.
>
> Thanks for the tutorial, but quite aware of all that and it's considered
> bad manners to lecture people at all, even more so when unaware of their
> background.

I have absolute no idea about your background.

But I do know what you wrote:

# ... java, which most sites seem dependent on now ...

which is wrong. Practically no sites depends on
Java in browser (most depends on JavaScript).

# a global thing about java, which includes script

which is wrong. JavaScript is not part of Java in any
way.

When you post crap like that then expect to be lectured!

Arne

On 12/24/21 19:28, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/23/2021 2:25 PM, chris wrote:
>> On 12/23/21 00:52, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2021 7:47 PM, chris wrote:
>>>> On 12/23/21 00:13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/2021 7:02 PM, chris wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/22/21 23:50, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>>>> In article<9ac4059f59.mickenx@armx6>, Michael Grunditz
>>>>>>>> SSL works , I can browse wikipedia. with VSI OpenSSL 1.1.1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *very happy*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much more usable than mozilla on my XP900.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In that case, it does sound interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What doesn't work, compared to a modern web browser on a typical
>>>>>>> system
>>>>>>> (Windows, Apple, Linux)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anything to do with later versions of java, which most sites seem
>>>>>> dependent on now. Did try early Mosaic on an old Sun system some
>>>>>> years ago and barely worked with anything, though Google tried it's
>>>>>> best...
>>>>>
>>>>> It does not support any version of Java and neither do any
>>>>> modern browser (Java applets are totally dead).
>>>>>
>>>>> It does not support any version of JavaScript either - and
>>>>> that is used by almost all web sites today.
>>>>
>>>> That was a global thing about java, which includes script.
>>>
>>> Java and JavaScript are two completely different languages.
>>>
>>> Java support in browsers and JavaScript support in browsers
>>> are totally independent.
>>>
>>> "Java including JavaScript" is similar to "Fortran including Cobol".
>>>
>>>> Pretty dead in the water really, unless the page is basic
>>>> html...
>>>
>>> Mosaic? Yes.
>>
>> Thanks for the tutorial, but quite aware of all that and it's considered
>> bad manners to lecture people at all, even more so when unaware of their
>> background.
>
> I have absolute no idea about your background.
>
> But I do know what you wrote:
>
> # ... java, which most sites seem dependent on now ...
>
> which is wrong. Practically no sites depends on
> Java in browser (most depends on JavaScript).
>
> # a global thing about java, which includes script
>
> which is wrong. JavaScript is not part of Java in any
> way.
>
> When you post crap like that then expect to be lectured!
>
> Arne
>

Well, there are arrogant nitpicking people everywhere, but says
more about you than me. The original source of Java was Sun
Microsystems decades ago and that infuenced javascript, so there
is a connection, despite your attempts to muddy the waters,
lecture and disparage others at the same time.

I notice you don't address the point about security, a much more
important issue for those planning to use cloud, but I guess some
just just can't see the wood for the trees.

Have a happy holiday anyway...

Chris

>
>