National Computing Group
West Mifflin, PA

Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
--------

Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
not move away from VMS? Or at least find out why they are moving.

bill

On 2/15/2022 8:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> National Computing Group
> West Mifflin, PA
>
> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
> --------
>
> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.

It is VSI's job to monitor migrations and argue for keeping VMS.

Why people are moving off VMS are pretty well known. Generally being
on a niche platform is considered a risk. The wording above hint
that not being able to run on VMWare servers is a significant
problem for that company as well.

So if VMS 9.2 has been released 2-3 years ago then maybe (just maybe)
this company would have kept VMS. But it was not.

It would be good for VSI to push info about VMS x86-64. If I were
responsible for marketing at VSI then I would send out an offer
to join the VMS x86-86 field test program to every company that is
using VMS. Not because there necessarily will be any benefits for
them or VSI of them joining, but because it send a strong
signal that VMS x86-64 is just around the corner.

Arne

On 2022-02-15, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> National Computing Group
> West Mifflin, PA
>
> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
> --------
>
> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
> not move away from VMS? Or at least find out why they are moving.
>

By the time a porting effort gets to that stage, it's usually too late
as emotionally they are in a place where they have decided they need
to get rid of the old system and only the details of how that is to
be done needs to be worked out.

What is interesting however, is why now instead of, say, 5 years ago ?

Did they initially wait for VSI to complete the port to x86-64 VMS,
but now, 7.5 years later without a production-ready version of x86-64 VMS,
did they finally decide to move away from VMS ?

I wonder if anything could be done to keep other customers waiting
a little longer, or if it's simply too late and some customers have
decided to finally move from VMS ?

One problem might be that you can't emulate an Itanium system, unlike
an Alpha system, so people might be having concerns around the age of
their Itanium systems.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-02-15, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 2/15/2022 8:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> National Computing Group
>> West Mifflin, PA
>>
>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>> --------
>>
>> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
>> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.
>
> It is VSI's job to monitor migrations and argue for keeping VMS.
>

I really hope they are doing this.

> Why people are moving off VMS are pretty well known. Generally being
> on a niche platform is considered a risk. The wording above hint
> that not being able to run on VMWare servers is a significant
> problem for that company as well.
>
> So if VMS 9.2 has been released 2-3 years ago then maybe (just maybe)
> this company would have kept VMS. But it was not.
>

I agree with this reasoning.

> It would be good for VSI to push info about VMS x86-64. If I were
> responsible for marketing at VSI then I would send out an offer
> to join the VMS x86-86 field test program to every company that is
> using VMS. Not because there necessarily will be any benefits for
> them or VSI of them joining, but because it send a strong
> signal that VMS x86-64 is just around the corner.
>

This is the kind of thing I was thinking of in my previous posting
when I wondered if there was anything that could be done and I agree
with your reasoning here as well.

This is exactly the kind of thing VSI should be doing, and if they are
not, then it's the kind of thing they should start doing immediately.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2/15/22 09:02, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/15/2022 8:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> National Computing Group
>> West Mifflin, PA
>>
>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>> --------
>>
>> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
>> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.
>
> It is VSI's job to monitor migrations and argue for keeping VMS.

Agreed. But does anyone actually do it?

>
> Why people are moving off VMS are pretty well known. Generally being
> on a niche platform is considered a risk. The wording above hint
> that not being able to run on VMWare servers is a significant
> problem for that company as well.

"virtualized Windows Server" does not necessarily mean VMWare. Windows
has its own virtualization product.

>
> So if VMS 9.2 has been released 2-3 years ago then maybe (just maybe)
> this company would have kept VMS. But it was not.
>
> It would be good for VSI to push info about VMS x86-64. If I were
> responsible for marketing at VSI then I would send out an offer
> to join the VMS x86-86 field test program to every company that is
> using VMS. Not because there necessarily will be any benefits for
> them or VSI of them joining, but because it send a strong
> signal that VMS x86-64 is just around the corner.

Maybe, but the push seems to be for virtualization and I saw a number
of OpenVMS job announcements that seemed to be production floor systems
which probably can't virtualized. I even saw one that involved VAXen
and the description was good enough to know this was real and not just
boilerplate in a vacancy announcement.

bill

On 2/15/2022 9:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 2/15/22 09:02, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 2/15/2022 8:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> National Computing Group
>>> West Mifflin, PA
>>>
>>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
>>> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.
>>
>> It is VSI's job to monitor migrations and argue for keeping VMS.
>
> Agreed.  But does anyone actually do it?

We will probably never know.

:-)

>> Why people are moving off VMS are pretty well known. Generally being
>> on a niche platform is considered a risk. The wording above hint
>> that not being able to run on VMWare servers is a significant
>> problem for that company as well.
>
> "virtualized Windows Server" does not necessarily mean VMWare.  Windows
> has its own virtualization product.

True.

VMWare or Hyper-V.

>> So if VMS 9.2 has been released 2-3 years ago then maybe (just maybe)
>> this company would have kept VMS. But it was not.
>>
>> It would be good for VSI to push info about VMS x86-64. If I were
>> responsible for marketing at VSI then I would send out an offer
>> to join the VMS x86-86 field test program to every company that is
>> using VMS. Not because there necessarily will be any benefits for
>> them or VSI of them joining, but because it send a strong
>> signal that VMS x86-64 is just around the corner.
>
> Maybe, but the push seems to be for virtualization

That is very common. Virtualization is a must have and
containers is a nice to have.

> and I saw a number
> of OpenVMS job announcements that seemed to be production floor systems
> which probably can't virtualized.

Maybe.

Arne

On 2/15/2022 9:04 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-02-15, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> National Computing Group
>> West Mifflin, PA
>>
>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>> --------
>>
>> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
>> not move away from VMS? Or at least find out why they are moving.
>
> By the time a porting effort gets to that stage, it's usually too late
> as emotionally they are in a place where they have decided they need
> to get rid of the old system and only the details of how that is to
> be done needs to be worked out.
>
> What is interesting however, is why now instead of, say, 5 years ago ?
>
> Did they initially wait for VSI to complete the port to x86-64 VMS,
> but now, 7.5 years later without a production-ready version of x86-64 VMS,
> did they finally decide to move away from VMS ?
>
> I wonder if anything could be done to keep other customers waiting
> a little longer, or if it's simply too late and some customers have
> decided to finally move from VMS ?
>
> One problem might be that you can't emulate an Itanium system, unlike
> an Alpha system, so people might be having concerns around the age of
> their Itanium systems.

Another possibility is Oracle.

I found the ad and it said Oracle.

And Oracle announced end of VMS support for Oracle DB
client in October 2020.

October 2020 + problem analysis + budget approval
sort of fits with a project start spring 2022.

On the other side I am not sure about the Fortran support
in Oracle DB client.

Arne

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 9:04:13 AM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-02-15, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > National Computing Group
> > West Mifflin, PA
> >
> > Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
> > running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
> > --------
> >
> > Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
> > not move away from VMS? Or at least find out why they are moving.
> >
> By the time a porting effort gets to that stage, it's usually too late
> as emotionally they are in a place where they have decided they need
> to get rid of the old system and only the details of how that is to
> be done needs to be worked out.
>
> What is interesting however, is why now instead of, say, 5 years ago ?
>
> Did they initially wait for VSI to complete the port to x86-64 VMS,
> but now, 7.5 years later without a production-ready version of x86-64 VMS,
> did they finally decide to move away from VMS ?

Many of the clients that I have had in the last few years moved from OpenVMS because of specialized hardware requirements.
Some considered using emulators, but without the special hardware, could not.
Others are moving away because of software resources not being available. While the applications are solid and rarely require update, the concern is that there are few who use the older languages or understand that environment any more. I have seen more movement into a hybrid environment where more modern techniques and languages are used for front end (consumer facing) parts of the code with the backend remaining on OpenVMS. I think that this trend will continue.

I am dealing with a client now that is "replicating" their ACMS based system to a Linux based one for the terminal handling via web services. The backend RDB database will remain in place on OpenVMS. This will extend their platform for years. They are still debating the pathway though. Emulation appears to be the easiest and least expensive given the cost for RDB on newer servers.

>
> I wonder if anything could be done to keep other customers waiting
> a little longer, or if it's simply too late and some customers have
> decided to finally move from VMS ?
>
> One problem might be that you can't emulate an Itanium system, unlike
> an Alpha system, so people might be having concerns around the age of
> their Itanium systems.
>
> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2/15/2022 8:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> National Computing Group
> West Mifflin, PA
>
> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
> --------
>
> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.

I found the ad.

And what is puzzling me is that it is not clear whether
they will keep Fortran or not.

<quote>
Document and migrate systems currently running Visual Basic, and older
Java code to a modern .Net framework
Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
....
Software Engineer / Developer with minimum of 1-2 years of experience
developing in Java, C, and C#. Knowledge of the Visual Studio IDE.
Comfortable with both Linux/Unix and Windows environments.

Must be willing to work with OpenVMS and FOTRAN.

Development experience with FORTRAN, .Net Core or SignalR a plus

Experience with Tableau a plus

Experience with SQL and Oracle a plus
....
Experience:

Java: 3 years (Required)
C#: 1 year (Required)
</quote>

It seems pretty clear that client side is changing from
VB6 and Java (AWT or Swing) desktop apps on Windows to
browser and an ASP.NET web app on Windows.

Server side is moving from Fortran on VMS to something
on Windows. But what is something? Not mentioning new language
points to keeping Fortran. But Fortran is really niche on
Windows and there is little emphasis on Fortran skills
in the ad. If I were to hire someone to port Fortran code
from VMS to Windows then I would insist on someone
with Fortran skills, but if porting from Fortran on VMS to
something else (like C# or Java) on Windows, then Fortran
skills are not quite as important.

Lots of speculation.

:-)

Arne

In article <j71r42Fh9vsU1@mid.individual.net>,
Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>Maybe, but the push seems to be for virtualization and I saw a number
>of OpenVMS job announcements that seemed to be production floor systems
>which probably can't virtualized.

Why not? There are reasons to virtualize systems on-prem.

- Dan C.

On 2/15/22 09:56, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/15/2022 8:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> National Computing Group
>> West Mifflin, PA
>>
>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>> --------
>>
>> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
>> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.
>
> I found the ad.
>
> And what is puzzling me is that it is not clear whether
> they will keep Fortran or not.
>
> <quote>
> Document and migrate systems currently running Visual Basic, and older
> Java code to a modern .Net framework
> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
> ...
> Software Engineer / Developer with minimum of 1-2 years of experience
> developing in Java, C, and C#. Knowledge of the Visual Studio IDE.
> Comfortable with both Linux/Unix and Windows environments.
>
> Must be willing to work with OpenVMS and FOTRAN.
>
> Development experience with FORTRAN, .Net Core or SignalR a plus
>
> Experience with Tableau a plus
>
> Experience with SQL and Oracle a plus
> ...
> Experience:
>
>     Java: 3 years (Required)
>     C#: 1 year (Required)
> </quote>
>
> It seems pretty clear that client side is changing from
> VB6 and Java (AWT or Swing) desktop apps on Windows to
> browser and an ASP.NET web app on Windows.
>
> Server side is moving from Fortran on VMS to something
> on Windows. But what is something? Not mentioning new language
> points to keeping Fortran. But Fortran is really niche on
> Windows and there is little emphasis on Fortran skills
> in the ad. If I were to hire someone to port Fortran code
> from VMS to Windows then I would insist on someone
> with Fortran skills, but if porting from Fortran on VMS to
> something else (like C# or Java) on Windows, then Fortran
> skills are not quite as important.

They are if he needs to be able to understand Fortran to
do the port. :-)

>
> Lots of speculation.
>
> :-)
>
> Arne

bill

On 2/15/22 10:16, Dan Cross wrote:
> In article <j71r42Fh9vsU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maybe, but the push seems to be for virtualization and I saw a number
>> of OpenVMS job announcements that seemed to be production floor systems
>> which probably can't virtualized.
>
> Why not? There are reasons to virtualize systems on-prem.
>

I guess it depends on how you actually communicate with the
devices on the floor. When I think of production floor systems
I think of cables between running machines and computers.
Probably my PDP-11 past seeping through.

bill

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 9:56:43 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/15/2022 8:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > National Computing Group
> > West Mifflin, PA
> >
> > Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
> > running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
> > --------
> >
> > Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
> > not move away from VMS? Or at least find out why they are moving.
> I found the ad.
>
> And what is puzzling me is that it is not clear whether
> they will keep Fortran or not.
>
> <quote>
> Document and migrate systems currently running Visual Basic, and older
> Java code to a modern .Net framework
> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
> ...
> Software Engineer / Developer with minimum of 1-2 years of experience
> developing in Java, C, and C#. Knowledge of the Visual Studio IDE.
> Comfortable with both Linux/Unix and Windows environments.
>
> Must be willing to work with OpenVMS and FOTRAN.
>
> Development experience with FORTRAN, .Net Core or SignalR a plus
>
> Experience with Tableau a plus
>
> Experience with SQL and Oracle a plus
> ...
> Experience:
>
> Java: 3 years (Required)
> C#: 1 year (Required)
> </quote>
>
> It seems pretty clear that client side is changing from
> VB6 and Java (AWT or Swing) desktop apps on Windows to
> browser and an ASP.NET web app on Windows.
>
> Server side is moving from Fortran on VMS to something
> on Windows. But what is something? Not mentioning new language
> points to keeping Fortran. But Fortran is really niche on
> Windows and there is little emphasis on Fortran skills
> in the ad. If I were to hire someone to port Fortran code
> from VMS to Windows then I would insist on someone
> with Fortran skills, but if porting from Fortran on VMS to
> something else (like C# or Java) on Windows, then Fortran
> skills are not quite as important.
>
> Lots of speculation.
>
> :-)
>
> Arne

The experience required depends on the ultimate goal. I have/am involved with clients where my skills are used to explain the current programming to those not familiar with the languages and OpenVMS. This site may already have FORTRAN folks that can provide this.

Dan

Den 2022-02-15 kl. 16:46, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
> On 2/15/22 10:16, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <j71r42Fh9vsU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> Bill Gunshannon  <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Maybe, but the push seems to be for virtualization and I saw a number
>>> of OpenVMS job announcements that seemed to be production floor systems
>>> which probably can't virtualized.
>>
>> Why not?  There are reasons to virtualize systems on-prem.
>>
>
> I guess it depends on how you actually communicate with the
> devices on the floor.  When I think of production floor systems
> I think of cables between running machines and computers.
> Probably my PDP-11 past seeping through.
>
> bill
>

Our VMS production support system only talks over the network.
Could just as well be in a VM as on the current Alpha.

On 2/15/2022 10:43 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 2/15/22 09:56, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 2/15/2022 8:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> National Computing Group
>>> West Mifflin, PA
>>>
>>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
>>> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.
>>
>> I found the ad.
>>
>> And what is puzzling me is that it is not clear whether
>> they will keep Fortran or not.
>>
>> <quote>
>> Document and migrate systems currently running Visual Basic, and older
>> Java code to a modern .Net framework
>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>> ...
>> Software Engineer / Developer with minimum of 1-2 years of experience
>> developing in Java, C, and C#. Knowledge of the Visual Studio IDE.
>> Comfortable with both Linux/Unix and Windows environments.
>>
>> Must be willing to work with OpenVMS and FOTRAN.
>>
>> Development experience with FORTRAN, .Net Core or SignalR a plus
>>
>> Experience with Tableau a plus
>>
>> Experience with SQL and Oracle a plus
>> ...
>> Experience:
>>
>>      Java: 3 years (Required)
>>      C#: 1 year (Required)
>> </quote>
>>
>> It seems pretty clear that client side is changing from
>> VB6 and Java (AWT or Swing) desktop apps on Windows to
>> browser and an ASP.NET web app on Windows.
>>
>> Server side is moving from Fortran on VMS to something
>> on Windows. But what is something? Not mentioning new language
>> points to keeping Fortran. But Fortran is really niche on
>> Windows and there is little emphasis on Fortran skills
>> in the ad. If I were to hire someone to port Fortran code
>> from VMS to Windows then I would insist on someone
>> with Fortran skills, but if porting from Fortran on VMS to
>> something else (like C# or Java) on Windows, then Fortran
>> skills are not quite as important.
>
> They are if he needs to be able to understand Fortran to
> do the port.   :-)

You would not translate Fortran code to C#/Java/whatever code 1:1,
so the person would just need to understand what the code does.

Fortran (at least up to 77!) is not a difficult language
to understand.

For reasonable nice Fortran then I would expect a developer
without Fortran experience to be able to deduct in and
out arguments, the main flow and any IO done.

Arne

On 2/15/2022 9:43 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/15/2022 9:04 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-02-15, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> National Computing Group
>>> West Mifflin, PA
>>>
>>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
>>> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.
>>
>> By the time a porting effort gets to that stage, it's usually too late
>> as emotionally they are in a place where they have decided they need
>> to get rid of the old system and only the details of how that is to
>> be done needs to be worked out.
>>
>> What is interesting however, is why now instead of, say, 5 years ago ?
>>
>> Did they initially wait for VSI to complete the port to x86-64 VMS,
>> but now, 7.5 years later without a production-ready version of x86-64
>> VMS,
>> did they finally decide to move away from VMS ?
>>
>> I wonder if anything could be done to keep other customers waiting
>> a little longer, or if it's simply too late and some customers have
>> decided to finally move from VMS ?
>>
>> One problem might be that you can't emulate an Itanium system, unlike
>> an Alpha system, so people might be having concerns around the age of
>> their Itanium systems.
>
> Another possibility is Oracle.
>
> I found the ad and it said Oracle.
>
> And Oracle announced end of VMS support for Oracle DB
> client in October 2020.
>
> October 2020 + problem analysis + budget approval
> sort of fits with a project start spring 2022.
>
> On the other side I am not sure about the Fortran support
> in Oracle DB client.

Also worth mentioning is that VSI has a solution for
the "Oracle problem" - to use the SQLRelay product.

It is actually quite nice. I like it.

But of course not everybody may share my opinion.

Arne

On 2/15/22 11:08, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/15/2022 10:43 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 2/15/22 09:56, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 2/15/2022 8:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> National Computing Group
>>>> West Mifflin, PA
>>>>
>>>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>>>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>>>> --------
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
>>>> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.
>>>
>>> I found the ad.
>>>
>>> And what is puzzling me is that it is not clear whether
>>> they will keep Fortran or not.
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> Document and migrate systems currently running Visual Basic, and
>>> older Java code to a modern .Net framework
>>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>>> ...
>>> Software Engineer / Developer with minimum of 1-2 years of experience
>>> developing in Java, C, and C#. Knowledge of the Visual Studio IDE.
>>> Comfortable with both Linux/Unix and Windows environments.
>>>
>>> Must be willing to work with OpenVMS and FOTRAN.
>>>
>>> Development experience with FORTRAN, .Net Core or SignalR a plus
>>>
>>> Experience with Tableau a plus
>>>
>>> Experience with SQL and Oracle a plus
>>> ...
>>> Experience:
>>>
>>>      Java: 3 years (Required)
>>>      C#: 1 year (Required)
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> It seems pretty clear that client side is changing from
>>> VB6 and Java (AWT or Swing) desktop apps on Windows to
>>> browser and an ASP.NET web app on Windows.
>>>
>>> Server side is moving from Fortran on VMS to something
>>> on Windows. But what is something? Not mentioning new language
>>> points to keeping Fortran. But Fortran is really niche on
>>> Windows and there is little emphasis on Fortran skills
>>> in the ad. If I were to hire someone to port Fortran code
>>> from VMS to Windows then I would insist on someone
>>> with Fortran skills, but if porting from Fortran on VMS to
>>> something else (like C# or Java) on Windows, then Fortran
>>> skills are not quite as important.
>>
>> They are if he needs to be able to understand Fortran to
>> do the port.   :-)
>
> You would not translate Fortran code to C#/Java/whatever code 1:1,
> so the person would just need to understand what the code does.
>
> Fortran (at least up to 77!) is not a difficult languag > to understand.

:-)

>
> For reasonable nice Fortran then I would expect a developer
> without Fortran experience to be able to deduct in and
> out arguments, the main flow and any IO done.

If only there was "reasonable nice Fortran". I used to have
to maintain a half dozen business applications written in
Fortran 66 by bored engineers who needed someting to keep
them busy during the summer off-season at a college. Each
several thousand lines long.

bill

On 2/15/22 11:00, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2022-02-15 kl. 16:46, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>> On 2/15/22 10:16, Dan Cross wrote:
>>> In article <j71r42Fh9vsU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> Bill Gunshannon  <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Maybe, but the push seems to be for virtualization and I saw a number
>>>> of OpenVMS job announcements that seemed to be production floor systems
>>>> which probably can't virtualized.
>>>
>>> Why not?  There are reasons to virtualize systems on-prem.
>>>
>>
>> I guess it depends on how you actually communicate with the
>> devices on the floor.  When I think of production floor systems
>> I think of cables between running machines and computers.
>> Probably my PDP-11 past seeping through.
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> Our VMS production support system only talks over the network.
> Could just as well be in a VM as on the current Alpha.
>

I thought of that afterwards. I guess a lot of it today is PLC's
talking to the bigger iron over the network. But that just leaves
me wondering how one does realtime.

bill

On 2022-02-15, abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Others are moving away because of software resources not being available. While the applications are solid and rarely require update, the concern is that there are few who use the older languages or understand that environment any more. I have seen more movement into a hybrid environment where more modern techniques and languages are used for front end (consumer facing) parts of the code with the backend remaining on OpenVMS. I think that this trend will continue.
>

When I see comments like this Dan, I keep coming back to my previous
suggestion that VSI should implement a VMS version of IBM's Master the
Mainframe program:

https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/education/zxplore

IBM's program has succeeded in building a community of people who are
now aware of z/OS and now have the skills to start using it.

A VMS version of this program would be a great way of building a base
of people with general knowledge and awareness of VMS and it would be
a good way of making VMS seem not so alien to people raised purely on
the Unix and Windows way of doing things.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2/15/22 13:41, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-02-15, abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Others are moving away because of software resources not being available. While the applications are solid and rarely require update, the concern is that there are few who use the older languages or understand that environment any more. I have seen more movement into a hybrid environment where more modern techniques and languages are used for front end (consumer facing) parts of the code with the backend remaining on OpenVMS. I think that this trend will continue.
>>
>
> When I see comments like this Dan, I keep coming back to my previous
> suggestion that VSI should implement a VMS version of IBM's Master the
> Mainframe program:
>
> https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/education/zxplore
>
> IBM's program has succeeded in building a community of people who are
> now aware of z/OS and now have the skills to start using it.
>
> A VMS version of this program would be a great way of building a base
> of people with general knowledge and awareness of VMS and it would be
> a good way of making VMS seem not so alien to people raised purely on
> the Unix and Windows way of doing things.
>

I only see one likely problem with this idea. What possible incentive
would there be for anyone to do it? VMS hardly has the name value or
recognition of IBM today.

bill

On 2/15/2022 2:08 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 2/15/22 13:41, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-02-15, abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Others are moving away because of software resources not being
>>> available.  While the applications are solid and rarely require
>>> update, the concern is that there are few who use the older languages
>>> or understand that environment any more.  I have seen more movement
>>> into a hybrid environment where more modern techniques and languages
>>> are used for front end (consumer facing) parts of the code with the
>>> backend remaining on OpenVMS. I think that this trend will continue.
>>>
>>
>> When I see comments like this Dan, I keep coming back to my previous
>> suggestion that VSI should implement a VMS version of IBM's Master the
>> Mainframe program:
>>
>> https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/education/zxplore
>>
>> IBM's program has succeeded in building a community of people who are
>> now aware of z/OS and now have the skills to start using it.
>>
>> A VMS version of this program would be a great way of building a base
>> of people with general knowledge and awareness of VMS and it would be
>> a good way of making VMS seem not so alien to people raised purely on
>> the Unix and Windows way of doing things.
>
> I only see one likely problem with this idea.  What possible incentive
> would there be for anyone to do it?  VMS hardly has the name value or
> recognition of IBM today.

That IBM link claims the 3500 schools are using it.

If just 1% of that number did it for VMS, then it would be progress.

Would it be a hard sell? Probably - but a lot of things are hard -
some people still do them.

Arne

On 15/02/2022 19:36, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

>
> Would it be a hard sell? Probably - but a lot of things are hard -
> some people still do them.
>
> Arne
>

Just like the JFK speech in 1962 announcing the moon mission

That was probably harder than learning a bit about VMS!

--
Chris

Bill Gunshannon schrieb am 15.02.2022 um 16:46:
> On 2/15/22 10:16, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <j71r42Fh9vsU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> Bill Gunshannon  <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Maybe, but the push seems to be for virtualization and I saw a number
>>> of OpenVMS job announcements that seemed to be production floor systems
>>> which probably can't virtualized.
>>
>> Why not?  There are reasons to virtualize systems on-prem.
>>
>
> I guess it depends on how you actually communicate with the
> devices on the floor.  When I think of production floor systems
> I think of cables between running machines and computers.
> Probably my PDP-11 past seeping through.

Today, most shop floor equipment communicates over Ethernet. I know of a
few (rather old) machines which use serial communication, but only with
an old DECserver - and Ethernet from there to the VMS nodes, using LAT
or Telnet devices. VMS running under VMware by means of Alpha (in two
cases VAX) emulation.

In fact, most of the emulators I have touched in the last few years
[disclaimer: my company is a Stromasys sales and support partner] run in
virtual machines. Some customers migrated older emulator versions
running on physical servers to current versions on virtual servers.

So: running OpenVMS in a VMware environment is reality today. I'd
personally prefer to run OpenVMS natively in a VM (soon), but not
everyone is able to migrate due to missing source code and/or 3rd party
software dependencies.

Hans.

On 15/02/2022 9:04 pm, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> National Computing Group
> West Mifflin, PA
>
> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
> --------
>
> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.
>
> bill

My guess is the keyword here is "virtualized" if all upgrades,
management etc was in the cloud maybe the OS wouldn't matter?

Definitely if no re-write of legacy technical debt was involved

On 16/02/2022 03:10, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 15/02/2022 9:04 pm, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>> National Computing Group
>> West Mifflin, PA
>>
>> Document, plan and execute the modernization of Fortran applications
>> running on OpenVMS systems to a virtualized Windows Server environment.
>> --------
>>
>> Does anyone watch for these postings and then try to convince them to
>> not move away from VMS?   Or at least find out why they are moving.
>>
>> bill
>
> My guess is the keyword here is "virtualized" if all upgrades,
> management etc was in the cloud maybe the OS wouldn't matter?
>
> Definitely if no re-write of legacy technical debt was involved

If they have decided to move, by the time its got to this stage I think
it highly unlikely they will change their mind. Firstly some one would
have to admit they have made a wrong call. This generally doesn't happen.

Secondly skills set consolidation on the Windows or Linux platform makes
sense. Having to manage VMS and have VMS skills available is expensive
and risky. It will also mean extra expense for new VMS licences, and may
mean extra expense for backups. Virtualized Windows licences are
essentially low cost (free) for small instances. If you have an
enterprise licence on the virtual host then you can run as many virtual
instances of windows as the server will support.

Pretty much the same goes for FORTRAN. Unless there is something special
about FORTRAN that the application needs I would expect it to be moved
to a "modern" language such as C# (its no longer modern, but its current).

So to me remaining on VMS can only be justified when:-

1. There are legal or regulatory reasons to remain. Typically for safety
critical systems in aviation, nuclear energy, train operations etc.

2. You have a lot of VMS and you don't have the funds to move.
-> this means your business is doomed to fail as VMS will get more
expensive.

3. You don't actually understand the business logic in your systems.
I would expect this to fail any audit checks....

... but these are the challenges facing VMS Software. A key one is
knowing which sites can be persuaded or need to stay on VMS and which
will move any way.

Dave