On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6-af62-b0317973dfc9n@googlegroups.com>,
> xyzzy1959@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>> Big endian
>
> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>
> John

What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?

bill

In article <j79socF3fg8U1@mid.individual.net>,
Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6-af62-b0317973dfc9n@googlegroups.com>,
>> xyzzy1959@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>> Big endian
>>
>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>
>What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?

You'd be shocked. A Very Large Tech Company tried to move
to BE Power from x86, and the project repeatedly failed because
of baked-in LE assumptions. It's even worse than assumptions
about memory models.

- Dan C.

On 2/18/2022 10:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6-af62-b0317973dfc9n@googlegroups.com>,
>> xyzzy1959@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>> Big endian
>>
>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>
> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?

Bad/ugly code may only work with specific endianess.

External data whether files or network protocols expecting
a specific endianess. One could argue that all such code should
use conversion functions between target and host to make
the code portable, but a lot of code is not doing that.

Arne

On 2/18/2022 11:03 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/18/2022 10:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6-af62-b0317973dfc9n@googlegroups.com>,
>>> xyzzy1959@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>> Big endian
>>>
>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>
>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>
> Bad/ugly code may only work with specific endianess.
>
> External data whether files or network protocols expecting
> a specific endianess. One could argue that all such code should
> use conversion functions between target and host to make
> the code portable, but a lot of code is not doing that.

As an anecdotal example: note that GNU Cobol default to
big endian on Linux and Windows x86-64.

Arne

On 2/18/22 13:18, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/18/2022 11:03 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 2/18/2022 10:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6-af62-b0317973dfc9n@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> xyzzy1959@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>>> Big endian
>>>>
>>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>
>>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>
>> Bad/ugly code may only work with specific endianess.
>>
>> External data whether files or network protocols expecting
>> a specific endianess. One could argue that all such code should
>> use conversion functions between target and host to make
>> the code portable, but a lot of code is not doing that.
>
> As an anecdotal example: note that GNU Cobol default to
> big endian on Linux and Windows x86-64.
>

But what difference does the internal storage make? COBOL can write
out all the numbers in the same format we humans read them thus
eliminating any concerns for endianess when exchanging data. :-)

bill

On 2/18/2022 2:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 2/18/22 13:18, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 2/18/2022 11:03 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 2/18/2022 10:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6-af62-b0317973dfc9n@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> xyzzy1959@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>>>> Big endian
>>>>>
>>>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>>
>>>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>>
>>> Bad/ugly code may only work with specific endianess.
>>>
>>> External data whether files or network protocols expecting
>>> a specific endianess. One could argue that all such code should
>>> use conversion functions between target and host to make
>>> the code portable, but a lot of code is not doing that.
>>
>> As an anecdotal example: note that GNU Cobol default to
>> big endian on Linux and Windows x86-64.
>
> But what difference does the internal storage make?  COBOL can write
> out all the numbers in the same format we humans read them thus
> eliminating any concerns for endianess when exchanging data.  :-)

Internal storage does not matter for nice correct code. Internal
storage can matter for bad incorrect code.

It matters for external interfaces. And even though it is
possible to do all external interface using text format, then
the reality is that a lot of data is exchanged or stored in
binary format.

Arne

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
> > In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6...@googlegroups.com>,
> > xyzz...@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
> >> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
> >>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
> >>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
> >> Big endian
> >
> > What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
> >
> > John
> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>
> bill
<Fortran COMMON blocks enters the chat>

Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in another with bytes? Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?

On 2/19/2022 1:05 PM, John Reagan wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> xyzz...@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>> Big endian
>>>
>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>
>>> John
>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>
>> bill
> <Fortran COMMON blocks enters the chat>
>
> Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in another with bytes? Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?
>

COMMON, MAP, RECORD, yeah, many times.

MAP (M) Long L
MAP (M) STRING S=4

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2/19/2022 1:05 PM, John Reagan wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> xyzz...@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>> Big endian
>>>
>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>
>>> John
>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>
> <Fortran COMMON blocks enters the chat>
>
> Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in another with bytes? Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?

I would use EQUIVALENCE and not COMMON for that, but it could be done
with COMMON.

But yes - the feature exists in most languages. Fortran, C, Pascal.
Also VMS Basic map dynamic and Cobol redefines.

Surprisingly the language where I have done itt most frequently is C#.

Arne

On 20/02/2022 2:05 am, John Reagan wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
> wrote:
>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> xyzz...@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill
>>>> Gunshannon
>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better
>>>>> ones.
>>>> Big endian
>>>
>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>
>>> John
>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>
>> bill
> <Fortran COMMON blocks enters the chat>
>
> Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in
> another with bytes? Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?

.. . . or COBOL REDEFINES

Say it John! Go on say it :-)

Arne Vajhøj schrieb am 20.02.2022 um 02:10:
> On 2/19/2022 1:05 PM, John Reagan wrote:
>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> xyzz...@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>>> Big endian
>>>>
>>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>>
>>>> John
>>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>>
>> <Fortran COMMON blocks enters the chat>
>>
>> Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in
>> another with bytes?  Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?
>
> I would use EQUIVALENCE and not COMMON for that, but it could be done
> with COMMON.

EQUIVALENCE is usually used when you need access to both definitions
within the same program unit. (Named) COMMON can be used to use
different definitions for the same memory area in different program units.

Hans.

> [...]

On 2/20/2022 1:44 PM, Hans Bachner wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj schrieb am 20.02.2022 um 02:10:
>> On 2/19/2022 1:05 PM, John Reagan wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> xyzz...@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>>>> Big endian
>>>>>
>>>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>>>
>>> <Fortran COMMON blocks enters the chat>
>>>
>>> Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in
>>> another with bytes?  Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?
>>
>> I would use EQUIVALENCE and not COMMON for that, but it could be done
>> with COMMON.
>
> EQUIVALENCE is usually used when you need access to both definitions
> within the same program unit. (Named) COMMON can be used to use
> different definitions for the same memory area in different program units.

Yes.

But I still think for Fortran the EQUIVALENCE is the most
equivalent (!) to C union and Pascal variant record.

Arne

On 2/20/22 13:44, Hans Bachner wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj schrieb am 20.02.2022 um 02:10:
>> On 2/19/2022 1:05 PM, John Reagan wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> xyzz...@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>>>> Big endian
>>>>>
>>>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>>>
>>> <Fortran COMMON blocks enters the chat>
>>>
>>> Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in
>>> another with bytes?  Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?
>>
>> I would use EQUIVALENCE and not COMMON for that, but it could be done
>> with COMMON.
>
> EQUIVALENCE is usually used when you need access to both definitions
> within the same program unit. (Named) COMMON can be used to use
> different definitions for the same memory area in different program units.

Using different COMMON block definitions for the same COMMON block
in different parts of the same program is usually considered very
bad practice and can result in some rather weird and very hard to
track down problems.

bill

On 2/20/2022 3:31 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 2/20/22 13:44, Hans Bachner wrote:
>> Arne Vajhøj schrieb am 20.02.2022 um 02:10:
>>> On 2/19/2022 1:05 PM, John Reagan wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>>>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>> xyzz...@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>>>>> Big endian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>>>>
>>>> <Fortran COMMON blocks enters the chat>
>>>>
>>>> Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in another
>>>> with bytes? Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?
>>>
>>> I would use EQUIVALENCE and not COMMON for that, but it could be done
>>> with COMMON.
>>
>> EQUIVALENCE is usually used when you need access to both definitions within
>> the same program unit. (Named) COMMON can be used to use different definitions
>> for the same memory area in different program units.
>
> Using different COMMON block definitions for the same COMMON block
> in different parts of the same program is usually considered very
> bad practice and can result in some rather weird and very hard to
> track down problems.
>
> bill
>

Why?

All a COMMON block is, is a piece of memory. Isn't it possible to want to look
at it in different ways?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2/20/2022 10:42 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 2/20/2022 3:31 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 2/20/22 13:44, Hans Bachner wrote:
>>> Arne Vajhøj schrieb am 20.02.2022 um 02:10:
>>>> On 2/19/2022 1:05 PM, John Reagan wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/18/22 09:12, John Dallman wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <69d0b812-0d53-42b6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>> xyzz...@gmail.com (John Reagan) wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon
>>>>>>>>> I can't understand the interest in HP-UX at all. It's just
>>>>>>>>> another proprietary Unix and not really one of the better ones.
>>>>>>>> Big endian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What makes big-endian attractive to end-user organisations?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>> What real difference does endianess make to anyone today?
>>>>>>
>>>>> <Fortran COMMON blocks enters the chat>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in
>>>>> another
>>>>> with bytes?  Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?
>>>>
>>>> I would use EQUIVALENCE and not COMMON for that, but it could be done
>>>> with COMMON.
>>>
>>> EQUIVALENCE is usually used when you need access to both definitions
>>> within
>>> the same program unit. (Named) COMMON can be used to use different
>>> definitions
>>> for the same memory area in different program units.
>>
>> Using different COMMON block definitions for the same COMMON block
>> in different parts of the same program is usually considered very
>> bad practice and can result in some rather weird and very hard to
>> track down problems.
>
> Why?
>
> All a COMMON block is, is a piece of memory.  Isn't it possible to want
> to look at it in different ways?

It is error prone, because there is no check of consistency and a it
requires a search to find the instances.

EQUIVALENCE is local and therefore very visible.

Arne

On 2/21/2022 9:41 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/20/2022 10:42 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 2/20/2022 3:31 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 2/20/22 13:44, Hans Bachner wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajhøj schrieb am 20.02.2022 um 02:10:
>>>>> On 2/19/2022 1:05 PM, John Reagan wrote:
>>>>>> Nobody has used a COMMON block in one place with an integer and in
>>>>>> another
>>>>>> with bytes?  Or a C union or a Pascal variant record?
>>>>>
>>>>> I would use EQUIVALENCE and not COMMON for that, but it could be done
>>>>> with COMMON.
>>>>
>>>> EQUIVALENCE is usually used when you need access to both definitions
>>>> within
>>>> the same program unit. (Named) COMMON can be used to use different
>>>> definitions
>>>> for the same memory area in different program units.
>>>
>>> Using different COMMON block definitions for the same COMMON block
>>> in different parts of the same program is usually considered very
>>> bad practice and can result in some rather weird and very hard to
>>> track down problems.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> All a COMMON block is, is a piece of memory.  Isn't it possible to
>> want to look at it in different ways?
>
> It is error prone, because there is no check of consistency and a it
> requires a search to find the instances.
>
> EQUIVALENCE is local and therefore very visible.

And to help the non-Fortran people:

$ type b1.for
program b1
integer*4 i4
common /bb/i4
i4 = 1
call b2
end
$ type b2.for
subroutine b2
integer*1 i1(4)
common /bb/i1
write(*,*) i1(1), i1(2), i1(3), i1(4)
return
end
$ for b1
$ for b2
$ link b1 + b2
$ run b1
1 0 0 0
$ type b.for
program b
integer*4 i4
integer*1 i1(4)
equivalence (i4, i1)
i4 = 1
write(*,*) i1(1), i1(2), i1(3), i1(4)
end
$ for b
$ link b
$ run b
1 0 0 0

Arne