On 3/8/2022 6:45 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-03-08, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> So, you were born with this knowledge about Linux?
>>
>> I do so dislike double standards ...
>>
>
> Huh ????
>
> _WHAT_ double standards ?

The discussion was about how difficult it is to learn VMS, due to having to read
the extensive documentation.

I'm wondering how you learned Linux without reading the documentation?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 3/8/22 21:01, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 6:45 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-03-08, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> So, you were born with this knowledge about Linux?
>>>
>>> I do so dislike double standards ...
>>>
>>
>> Huh ????
>>
>> _WHAT_ double standards ?
>
> The discussion was about how difficult it is to learn VMS, due to having
> to read the extensive documentation.
>
> I'm wondering how you learned Linux without reading the documentation?

I learned Unix from the online Man Pages people always complain
about being inadequate documentation. Of course, back in the
V7 days about all we had were the Man pages and papers from Bell
Labs. Learned it all there. User, Developer and Manager.

There was a very good System Administrator's Manual written later
(I have an autographed copy! And 3 of the later additions that
added stuff like HP-UX and Linux). But in the beginning you could
put all the documentation in a single 1" binder. If you even
bothered to print it out.

bill

On 3/8/2022 9:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 3/8/22 21:01, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 6:45 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-08, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So, you were born with this knowledge about Linux?
>>>>
>>>> I do so dislike double standards ...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Huh ????
>>>
>>> _WHAT_ double standards ?
>>
>> The discussion was about how difficult it is to learn VMS, due to having to
>> read the extensive documentation.
>>
>> I'm wondering how you learned Linux without reading the documentation?
>
> I learned Unix from the online Man Pages people always complain
> about being inadequate documentation. Of course, back in the
> V7 days about all we had were the Man pages and papers from Bell
> Labs. Learned it all there. User, Developer and Manager.
>
> There was a very good System Administrator's Manual written later
> (I have an autographed copy! And 3 of the later additions that
> added stuff like HP-UX and Linux). But in the beginning you could
> put all the documentation in a single 1" binder. If you even
> bothered to print it out.

So what are you saying? Since you seem to dislike learning how to use VMS, are
you saying that VMS is bad because it has more (and better) documentation?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 3/9/22 02:25, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 9:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 3/8/22 21:01, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 6:45 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-08, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, you were born with this knowledge about Linux?
>>>>>
>>>>> I do so dislike double standards ...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Huh ????
>>>>
>>>> _WHAT_ double standards ?
>>>
>>> The discussion was about how difficult it is to learn VMS, due to
>>> having to
>>> read the extensive documentation.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering how you learned Linux without reading the documentation?
>>
>> I learned Unix from the online Man Pages people always complain
>> about being inadequate documentation.  Of course, back in the
>> V7 days about all we had were the Man pages and papers from Bell
>> Labs.  Learned it all there.  User, Developer and Manager.
>>
>> There was a very good System Administrator's Manual written later
>> (I have an autographed copy!  And 3 of the later additions that
>> added stuff like HP-UX and Linux). But in the beginning you could
>> put all the documentation in a single 1" binder.  If you even
>> bothered to print it out.
>
> So what are you saying?  Since you seem to dislike learning how to use
> VMS, are you saying that VMS is bad because it has more (and better)
> documentation?
>

No, for one thing, I have never said that VMS was "bad". VMS is not
bad. VMS is not good. VMS is different. It is also complex. Some
think it is too complex at the user level. As for the documentation,
better is a matter of opinion. I have been doing this crap for over
50 years. I have worked with more than a dozen very different OSes.
(not counting micro-computers) VMS is by far the most obtuse. It has
so much documentation because it requires it. That's my opinion, too.

bill

On 2022-03-08, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 6:45 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-03-08, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> So, you were born with this knowledge about Linux?
>>>
>>> I do so dislike double standards ...
>>>
>>
>> Huh ????
>>
>> _WHAT_ double standards ?
>
> The discussion was about how difficult it is to learn VMS, due to having to read
> the extensive documentation.
>
> I'm wondering how you learned Linux without reading the documentation?
>

1) I read the normal reference manual documentation, 2) I read public
discussions about specific issues I encountered, 3) I worked through
various tutorial documentation when encountering something new for the
first time and, 4) I looked at the source code if there was something
really strange going on I didn't understand.

Unlike Linux/Unix, VMS is lacking in the last three options.

Also, for more specific internals work, unlike VMS, Linux has documentation
and examples for when you want to write a device driver (or do something
else internally with Linux itself like add a new filesystem). In VMS land,
the only public documentation about the VMS internals is the I&DS manual,
the old Alpha device driver manual, and you can forget about meaningful
public device driver and internals examples for VMS.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>On 2022-03-08, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> So, you were born with this knowledge about Linux?
>>
>> I do so dislike double standards ...
>
>Huh ????
>
>_WHAT_ double standards ?

I think his argument is that you had to learn both Linux and VMS operations
somewhere.

And I don't know about you, but I find the Gray Wall and associated tutorial
manuals to be a lot better-written and more useful than the Linux man pages.

Mind you, I find the 4.2BSD man pages to be a lot better-written and more
useful than the Linux man pages too. And 4.2BSD came with a tutorial book
as well. The 4.2BSD man pages are full of examples; why did they not use
any of that stuff in Linux?

The absolute worst is OSX, though, where a lot of the commands just have
no man pages at all. If they do, they aren't any better than the Linux ones.

Most of what I know about VMS I learned from reading DEC documentation.
Most of what I know about Linux I learned from reading AT&T and Berkeley
documentation.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."