Hi.

Is it my feed, or has it been quite quiet on the list a few days?

Regards,
Jan-Erik.

On 31/03/2022 17:57, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Is it my feed, or has it been quite quiet on the list a few days?
>
> Regards,
> Jan-Erik.

Yes, it's been very quiet. Not even a peep about SBB power supplies!

On 3/31/22 12:57, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Is it my feed, or has it been quite quiet on the list a few days?
>
> Regards,
> Jan-Erik.

Don't know the reason, but I have seen nothing in any of the
groups I follow for several days now. Same for some mailing
lists.

bill

On 2022-03-31, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Is it my feed, or has it been quite quiet on the list a few days?
>

As Roy and Bill have just said, it's quiet.

If it makes you feel any better, I've got some things to talk about
in a few days however when I get some time... :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 1:23:03 PM UTC-4, Roy Omond wrote:
> On 31/03/2022 17:57, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> > Hi.
> >
> > Is it my feed, or has it been quite quiet on the list a few days?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jan-Erik.
> Yes, it's been very quiet. Not even a peep about SBB power supplies!
Direct contact made. Supplies are on the way.

Dan

On 3/31/22 13:23, Roy Omond wrote:
> On 31/03/2022 17:57, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> Is it my feed, or has it been quite quiet on the list a few days?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jan-Erik.
>
> Yes, it's been very quiet.  Not even a peep about SBB power supplies!

As long as you brought them up.....

Over time I have had more than a dozen SBB's. Still have at least
a half dozen. I have never had a power supply fail.

bill

On 3/31/2022 2:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 3/31/22 13:23, Roy Omond wrote:
>> On 31/03/2022 17:57, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>>
>>> Is it my feed, or has it been quite quiet on the list a few days?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jan-Erik.
>>
>> Yes, it's been very quiet. Not even a peep about SBB power supplies!
>
> As long as you brought them up.....
>
> Over time I have had more than a dozen SBB's. Still have at least
> a half dozen. I have never had a power supply fail.
>
> bill
>

I'm running a VAXstation 4000 model 90A, a 1998 DECpc with 333 Mhz CPU, and
various other old DEC HW. They weren't into building junk.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:09:21 PM UTC-4, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 3/31/2022 2:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > On 3/31/22 13:23, Roy Omond wrote:
> >> On 31/03/2022 17:57, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> >>> Hi.
> >>>
> >>> Is it my feed, or has it been quite quiet on the list a few days?
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Jan-Erik.
> >>
> >> Yes, it's been very quiet. Not even a peep about SBB power supplies!
> >
> > As long as you brought them up.....
> >
> > Over time I have had more than a dozen SBB's. Still have at least
> > a half dozen. I have never had a power supply fail.
> >
> > bill
> >
> I'm running a VAXstation 4000 model 90A, a 1998 DECpc with 333 Mhz CPU, and
> various other old DEC HW. They weren't into building junk.
>
> --
> David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> 170 Grimplin Road
> Vanderbilt, PA 15486

My VAX 3800 is still running just fine. I don't run this every day, but at least once a month to do testing. I even have some old top loading CD drives that I use occasionally too.

Dan

In article <jama0eFluc8U1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
> On 3/31/22 13:23, Roy Omond wrote:
> > On 31/03/2022 17:57, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> >> Hi.
> >>
> >> Is it my feed, or has it been quite quiet on the list a few days?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Jan-Erik.
> >
> > Yes, it's been very quiet. Not even a peep about SBB power supplies!
>
> As long as you brought them up.....
>
> Over time I have had more than a dozen SBB's. Still have at least
> a half dozen. I have never had a power supply fail.

At the moment they are my bottleneck. That is partly due to the fact
that I made sure that I have enough disks, whereas I have the power
supplies which happened to be in the boxes. I've collected single disks
but not (yet) single power supplies. With about 15 in use, one disk fails
every year or two (but they are years or decades old and some might have
been running for a long time). Also, I've changed some disks when
moving to larger sizes but not power supplies. Not sure what the MTBF
is for disks and power supplies. Probably also makes a difference if
they are in continuous use or not.

In article <t251pe$qto$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
<davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:

> I'm running a VAXstation 4000 model 90A, a 1998 DECpc with 333 Mhz CPU, and
> various other old DEC HW. They weren't into building junk.

The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff, but my
guess is yes) were really built to last. I've generally had good luck
with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the shorter
the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.

On 3/31/22 17:10, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <t251pe$qto$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>
>> I'm running a VAXstation 4000 model 90A, a 1998 DECpc with 333 Mhz CPU, and
>> various other old DEC HW. They weren't into building junk.
>
> The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff, but my
> guess is yes) were really built to last. I've generally had good luck
> with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the shorter
> the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.
>

The last Alpha I had at the University was one of those deskside
boxes that looked like a PC. While it was heavier than the average
PC it was badged Compaq and it lasted about as long as PC's do.

bill

On 3/31/2022 6:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 3/31/22 17:10, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <t251pe$qto$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
>> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>
>>> I'm running a VAXstation 4000 model 90A, a 1998 DECpc with 333 Mhz CPU, and
>>> various other old DEC HW.  They weren't into building junk.
>>
>> The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff, but my
>> guess is yes) were really built to last.  I've generally had good luck
>> with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the shorter
>> the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.
>>
>
> The last Alpha I had at the University was one of those deskside
> boxes that looked like a PC.  While it was heavier than the average
> PC it was badged Compaq and it lasted about as long as PC's do.

We've got several XP1000's at VSI that are still doing a lot of good work.

--

-- Rob

On 3/31/2022 5:10 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <t251pe$qto$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>> I'm running a VAXstation 4000 model 90A, a 1998 DECpc with 333 Mhz CPU, and
>> various other old DEC HW. They weren't into building junk.
>
> The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff, but my
> guess is yes) were really built to last. I've generally had good luck
> with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the shorter
> the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.

DEC build computers to last decades.

Lots of VAX'es and Alpha's still running shows that.

But the sad fact is that it does not make financial sense today
to build computers like that. Computers are technological obsolete
after 3-5-8 years and they get replaced, so not really any point
in making them to last 20 years.

Arne

On 3/31/22 3:44 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:

> We've got several XP1000's at VSI that are still doing a lot of good work.

They are nice machines. I use mine daily. The only problem is the
interior plastic parts are crumbling, and the firmware is stuck on an
old version. I just wish I could fit modern disk drives on it.

For many years, until she passed away, my cat kept watch on me from
her perch atop my XP1000. I always worried about the heat, but she
seemed to like it. We called her the Alpha Cat.

Alan Frisbie

In article <jamnh3FodncU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:

> On 3/31/22 17:10, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> > In article <t251pe$qto$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
> > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> >
> >> I'm running a VAXstation 4000 model 90A, a 1998 DECpc with 333 Mhz CPU, and
> >> various other old DEC HW. They weren't into building junk.
> >
> > The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff, but my
> > guess is yes) were really built to last. I've generally had good luck
> > with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the shorter
> > the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.
> >
>
> The last Alpha I had at the University was one of those deskside
> boxes that looked like a PC. While it was heavier than the average
> PC it was badged Compaq and it lasted about as long as PC's do.

The PWS? I've had some running for about 11 years. They're much older,
of course.

On 2022-03-31, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
> In article <t251pe$qto$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
><davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>
>> I'm running a VAXstation 4000 model 90A, a 1998 DECpc with 333 Mhz CPU, and
>> various other old DEC HW. They weren't into building junk.
>
> The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff, but my
> guess is yes) were really built to last. I've generally had good luck
> with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the shorter
> the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.
>

The nice thing about hardware these days is that the power supplies
are much more standard than they used to be so replacing them in
the future should be easier than replacing power supplies in old
equipment is at the moment.

For the low power equipment, I also approve of the movement towards
using a USB port as the power mechanism as that gets rid of the old
custom and non-standard external power supplies problem.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Den 2022-04-01 kl. 14:03, skrev Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):
> In article <jamnh3FodncU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 3/31/22 17:10, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <t251pe$qto$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
>>> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I'm running a VAXstation 4000 model 90A, a 1998 DECpc with 333 Mhz CPU, and
>>>> various other old DEC HW. They weren't into building junk.
>>>
>>> The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff, but my
>>> guess is yes) were really built to last. I've generally had good luck
>>> with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the shorter
>>> the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.
>>>
>>
>> The last Alpha I had at the University was one of those deskside
>> boxes that looked like a PC. While it was heavier than the average
>> PC it was badged Compaq and it lasted about as long as PC's do.
>
> The PWS? I've had some running for about 11 years. They're much older,
> of course.
>

My customers DS20e's was installed in May 2006 (by me!). 16 years now.
And yes, I have explained the potential risks involved. I'd like to
replace them with something much more modern, some DS25's...

Jan-Erik.

On 4/1/2022 9:12 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2022-04-01 kl. 14:03, skrev Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):
>> In article <jamnh3FodncU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On 3/31/22 17:10, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>> The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff,
>>>> but my
>>>> guess is yes) were really built to last.  I've generally had good luck
>>>> with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the
>>>> shorter
>>>> the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The last Alpha I had at the University was one of those deskside
>>> boxes that looked like a PC.  While it was heavier than the average
>>> PC it was badged Compaq and it lasted about as long as PC's do.
>>
>> The PWS?  I've had some running for about 11 years.  They're much older,
>> of course.
>
> My customers DS20e's was installed in May 2006 (by me!). 16 years now.
> And yes, I have explained the potential risks involved. I'd like to
> replace them with something much more modern, some DS25's...

DS25's are newer but not new.

Could the applications run in an Alpha emulator?

An Alpha emulator running on a stripped down Linux/Windows running in
a VM under ESXi may fit better with the overall IT strategy.

Of course they could also wait just a few months and go for
VMS x86-64 in a VM under ESXi. But given that it is on Alpha
not Itanium then that may not be the plan.

Arne

Den 2022-04-01 kl. 15:27, skrev Arne Vajhøj:
> On 4/1/2022 9:12 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> Den 2022-04-01 kl. 14:03, skrev Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):
>>> In article <jamnh3FodncU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
>>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On 3/31/22 17:10, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>> The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff, but my
>>>>> guess is yes) were really built to last.  I've generally had good luck
>>>>> with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the shorter
>>>>> the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The last Alpha I had at the University was one of those deskside
>>>> boxes that looked like a PC.  While it was heavier than the average
>>>> PC it was badged Compaq and it lasted about as long as PC's do.
>>>
>>> The PWS?  I've had some running for about 11 years.  They're much older,
>>> of course.
>>
>> My customers DS20e's was installed in May 2006 (by me!). 16 years now.
>> And yes, I have explained the potential risks involved. I'd like to
>> replace them with something much more modern, some DS25's...
>
> DS25's are newer but not new.
>
> Could the applications run in an Alpha emulator?
>
> An Alpha emulator running on a stripped down Linux/Windows running in
> a VM under ESXi may fit better with the overall IT strategy.
>
> Of course they could also wait just a few months and go for
> VMS x86-64 in a VM under ESXi. But given that it is on Alpha
> not Itanium then that may not be the plan.
>
> Arne
>

The plan has been (since I came there in 2006) to replace this system
in "3-4 years". And still is, but now extended to "approx. 5 years".

Now, they just need to supply rack space. I do all the system
management, so there are no other support groups from the site
involved. If we'd go with an emulation in a VM a lot of other
groups would be involved and probably just cause trouble.

Easiest right now is a box-swap using three DS25's.

x86-64 could be possible. If that would be with or without VM's
is not clear. One could just swap the Alphas to X86 servers and
have a very similar setup. We'll see.

We have other issues. Alpha only supports up to 2 Gb FC cards.
The SAN group wants to go to 8/16/32 FC switches. They have
now kept 2 pcs of 2/4/8 Gb switches just for our servers, but
these are end-of-support in April 2024, and the SAN group do not
want to run FC switches that are unsupported...

Jan-Erik.

In article <t26q8v$kdj$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:

> The nice thing about hardware these days is that the power supplies
> are much more standard than they used to be so replacing them in
> the future should be easier than replacing power supplies in old
> equipment is at the moment.

True, but in this case it is an SSB power supply, i.e. a brick like the
disks. I don't think that they make new ones.

> For the low power equipment, I also approve of the movement towards
> using a USB port as the power mechanism as that gets rid of the old
> custom and non-standard external power supplies problem.

Indeed. That has been an EU requirement for mobile phones (and maybe
some other "mobile devices") for a while now.

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 9:43:39 AM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2022-04-01 kl. 15:27, skrev Arne Vajhøj:
> > On 4/1/2022 9:12 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> >> Den 2022-04-01 kl. 14:03, skrev Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):
> >>> In article <jamnh3...@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> >>> <bill.gu...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> On 3/31/22 17:10, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> >>>>> The old DEC hardware: all VAXes (not sure about even older stuff, but my
> >>>>> guess is yes) were really built to last. I've generally had good luck
> >>>>> with Alphas, but have the impression that the newer they are the shorter
> >>>>> the useful lifetime, though it is still OK.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The last Alpha I had at the University was one of those deskside
> >>>> boxes that looked like a PC. While it was heavier than the average
> >>>> PC it was badged Compaq and it lasted about as long as PC's do.
> >>>
> >>> The PWS? I've had some running for about 11 years. They're much older,
> >>> of course.
> >>
> >> My customers DS20e's was installed in May 2006 (by me!). 16 years now.
> >> And yes, I have explained the potential risks involved. I'd like to
> >> replace them with something much more modern, some DS25's...
> >
> > DS25's are newer but not new.
> >
> > Could the applications run in an Alpha emulator?
> >
> > An Alpha emulator running on a stripped down Linux/Windows running in
> > a VM under ESXi may fit better with the overall IT strategy.
> >
> > Of course they could also wait just a few months and go for
> > VMS x86-64 in a VM under ESXi. But given that it is on Alpha
> > not Itanium then that may not be the plan.
> >
> > Arne
> >
> The plan has been (since I came there in 2006) to replace this system
> in "3-4 years". And still is, but now extended to "approx. 5 years".
>
> Now, they just need to supply rack space. I do all the system
> management, so there are no other support groups from the site
> involved. If we'd go with an emulation in a VM a lot of other
> groups would be involved and probably just cause trouble.
>
> Easiest right now is a box-swap using three DS25's.
>
> x86-64 could be possible. If that would be with or without VM's
> is not clear. One could just swap the Alphas to X86 servers and
> have a very similar setup. We'll see.
>
> We have other issues. Alpha only supports up to 2 Gb FC cards.
> The SAN group wants to go to 8/16/32 FC switches. They have
> now kept 2 pcs of 2/4/8 Gb switches just for our servers, but
> these are end-of-support in April 2024, and the SAN group do not
> want to run FC switches that are unsupported...
>
> Jan-Erik.

I have run into this type of support issue as well even prior to my working for Stromasys(supplier of Charon emulators).
If you chose to go the emulator route, the emulated Alpha would see the existing 2G interface while taking advantage of the faster interconnect. The same works for the NICs. Contact me offline if you have any specific questions. This setup is working very well at many sites and normally has little IT involvement other than the initial setup. You can likely set the entire system up yourself if you are given the needed network addresses. Very simple system that does not require any special software other than what is supplied.

Dan

On 4/1/22 09:43, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>
> We have other issues. Alpha only supports up to 2 Gb FC cards.
> The SAN group wants to go to 8/16/32 FC switches. They have
> now kept 2 pcs of 2/4/8 Gb switches just for our servers, but
> these are end-of-support in April 2024, and the SAN group do not
> want to run FC switches that are unsupported...

And that's how it's done. Push VMS out the door without ever
even mentioning its name.

bill

On 4/1/2022 10:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 4/1/22 09:43, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> We have other issues. Alpha only supports up to 2 Gb FC cards.
>> The SAN group wants to go to 8/16/32 FC switches. They have
>> now kept 2 pcs of 2/4/8 Gb switches just for our servers, but
>> these are end-of-support in April 2024, and the SAN group do not
>> want to run FC switches that are unsupported...
>
> And that's how it's done.  Push VMS out the door without ever
> even mentioning its name.

They don't mention VMS because they are not targeting VMS specific -
they are targeting all systems that cannot run with modern/supported
hardware.

Alpha was fine, but it is more than 20 years since HP killed
(announced EOL) Alpha. This is very old systems. No surprise
that they do not support current (up to 20 years newer) technology.

Arne

On 4/1/2022 11:40 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/1/2022 10:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 09:43, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>> We have other issues. Alpha only supports up to 2 Gb FC cards.
>>> The SAN group wants to go to 8/16/32 FC switches. They have
>>> now kept 2 pcs of 2/4/8 Gb switches just for our servers, but
>>> these are end-of-support in April 2024, and the SAN group do not
>>> want to run FC switches that are unsupported...
>>
>> And that's how it's done. Push VMS out the door without ever
>> even mentioning its name.
>
> They don't mention VMS because they are not targeting VMS specific -
> they are targeting all systems that cannot run with modern/supported
> hardware.
>
> Alpha was fine, but it is more than 20 years since HP killed
> (announced EOL) Alpha. This is very old systems. No surprise
> that they do not support current (up to 20 years newer) technology.

At first I thought Jan-Erik was joking about an "upgrade" to DS25 systems. Not
all that familiar, but, I thought the DS25 was just a DS20 with faster CPUs.

As for the networking, I've got to believe that there is something available,
that is new, and supported, that could talk to the Alpha FC cards. But, perhaps
not.

I do understand wanting support. Open the hood on a new auto, and one will
understand why one might not want to keep it past the warranty period.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2022-04-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>
> Of course they could also wait just a few months and go for
> VMS x86-64 in a VM under ESXi. But given that it is on Alpha
> not Itanium then that may not be the plan.
>

Isn't that timetable just a little optimistic Arne ? :-)

I doubt that anyone will be running live production payloads on
the production-level version of x86-64 VMS until a good year or
so after it is released.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.