Stephen Fuld wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 6:14 AM, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>> Anton Ertl wrote:
>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>>> That isn't a solution. If the problem is to satisfy both sides,
>>>> killing the branch of the language that satisfies one of them
>>>> constitutes failure; one side is not satisfied.
>>>>
>>>> However, reality is more complex than that. The reality is
>>>> that C99 and gcc are viewed by the dissatisfied side as
>>>> just that "solution" as having happened already...
>>>
>>> Actually, it seems to me that C++ is the solution for the nasal demon
>>> worshippers.  And once C compilers started to be written by C++
>>> programmers, they applied the C++ view of how to deal with undefined
>>> behaviour also to C.
>>
>> So why aren't more people switching to Rust?
>
> I think Rust usage is growing, but any change like that is very slow.
>
>
>> I took a look at RustCrypto, specifically how they handle bigint
>> operations, and I was extremely impressed: You get the exact same
>> direct access to both 64 and 128-bit signed and unsigned ints, and the
>> naive/natural way to express "(hi, lo) = a + ( b*c) + carry" works
>> as-is, and generates the same optimal code as you can get from clang
>> when compiling C(++).
>
> Good to know.  So . . .  are you switching to Rust for general use?  :-)

Yes, quite possibly so.

We use Rust several places internally in Cognite, which is my current
and almost certainly last employer. :-)

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

> A "bar" friend was having problems with his mechanical free-ing of
> data in business application; it was taking too much time {write,
> debug, allocate, free}. I convinced him to fork off the sub-task and
> allow the OS to clean up the memory without free-ing. Not only did
> this work first time, and get rid of memory leaks, but it ran 30% faster
> to boot.

This generalizes to a memory management style called
zones/pools/regions (in GCC it was called obstacks).

Rust's "liftetimes" are closely related to those "regions".

Stefan

On 10/24/2021 4:23 AM, BGB wrote:
> On 10/23/2021 11:55 PM, George Neuner wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 03:06:56 -0500, BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/21/2021 12:16 AM, George Neuner wrote:
>>>
>>>> Same with schools - the idea to give every child a laptop or pad is
>>>> just wasteful. For roughly 2/3 what they are currently spending on
>>>> portables, school systems could put thin terminals at every desk and
>>>> give every student a small desk computer to use at home.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do any schools actually do this?...
>>>
>>> Usual thing on the news is schools having issues with inability to pay
>>> teachers due to budget shortfalls and similar, inability to afford
>>> textbooks, ...
>>
>> Unfortunately, at least in the U.S., there are quite a few school
>> systems that simply hand out devices, and many more that demand the
>> student purchase the device in order to attend.  Often purchase
>> requirements are partially subsidized (with taxpayer money), but not
>> always.
>>
>> Then it is expected that the student has Internet access from home.
>> For low income students, that isn't necessarily true, and then there
>> is a division between the haves who can work at home, and have nots
>> who can use their devices only at school, or in a library, or have to
>> find a place with free WiFi.
>>
>> So then come the municipal scale projects to supply WiFi everywhere,
>> and government subsidies (in addition to their own fee structures for
>> ordinary customers) for ISPs to provide service to low income people
>> at little or no cost.
>>
>> And, of course, since children can't be trusted with IT security,
>> these devices typically are not "general purpose" but rather are so
>> locked down that they barely qualify as "computers" ... it may look
>> like a Chromebook, but it's just an expensive Speak-n-Spell.
>>
>> The primary beneficiaries of these programs are companies like Apple
>> and Google.  It's debatable whether having a computer really will help
>> the average primary school student learn, and whether the benefit of
>> computers over books and pencils justifies the cost to the school
>> system, and to the taxpayers that support it.
>>
>
> Yeah...
>
> Back when I was school-age, it was still mostly in the era of textbooks
> and assignments being done on paper print-outs.
>
> Computers were often around, typically as a row of desktop PCs along a
> wall somewhere, but not typically used in normal class activities.
>
>
> For me, this was true in elementary school as well, just back then they
> were mostly running MS-DOS or sometimes Windows (Windows 3.11 and
> Windows 95 were common). At this time, teachers ended up mostly just
> letting me poke around on computers and write stuff in QBasic and
> similar (from what I remember, unlike most of the other students, I was
> mostly just sorta allowed to "do whatever" during these years).
>
> I have a vague memory of at one point going off somewhere else where
> they had me do some tests and similar. Don't remember, I think I talked
> to some people, also have a vague (strange) memory of being asked to
> assemble some 3D puzzles while in a room by myself behind a 1-way mirror.
>

Vague memory was that the 3D puzzles were things like a bunch of wooden
pieces that one would assemble into cubes and similar. Test ended when
they were assembled. Off-hand, don't know of any explanation for this
one, no one talked about it, just that I vaguely remember something like
this.

I do know that I was also diagnosed as autistic around this time.

> After this, they just let me do whatever I felt like doing (which,
> granted, was mostly just poking at QBasic on the computer...). Actually,
> I think I also remember now they had sent me a few times (and I think
> another person, who was female) to another smaller room with an adult
> guy who I remember mostly talking about programming stuff (namely
> Borland Pascal and similar; but I had more of a preference for C than
> Pascal). I think the female was around for some of the other "do stuff
> with computers" activities (but, I don't remember much else about her,
> other than her personality being a little more harsh/abrasive than many
> of the other kids; there were generally no other students present other
> than us).
>
> Also, in this room, there were some Macs, and a few of these computers
> had magneto-optical drives (of the 130mm variety), or at least the ones
> that had Turbo C and Pascal had the magneto-optical drives.
>

Clarification: IIRC, it was Windows machines with the Magneto-optical
drives. There were some Mac PCs in the room as well, but didn't do as
much on them (IIRC, they also had "Programmer's Workshop" or similar).

Pretty much no other PCs I had encountered have had these things (most
everything else of this era was 3.5" disks and CD-ROM). These vaguely
resembled giant 3.5" disks which contained CD-ROMs.

I think the guy who talked some about programming stuff also sorta hung
out near the school librarian at the time (who was also involved with
some of this), but they were not (usually) actively involved in any of
these activities.

But, in retrospect, this was possibly non-standard stuff to expect a few
elementary school kids to play around with (with no particular tasks or
assignments involved that I can remember, besides just sorta being
expected to poke around with the development tools).

I don't really have any further context for any of this, and my memories
from this time are a bit fragmented/fuzzy.

Not sure if or how many other people might have had similar experiences.

> On my own time, I was mostly messing with Turbo C and TASM and similar
> instead, and trying to make sense of the Wolf3D and Doom source.
>
> My early years seem kinda weird when I think back on them.
>

I remember now that I also got my own home copies of some of the Borland
tools as well around this time. Not sure how much relation, I think my
parents bought this though.

I used them for a while, but later switched over mostly to Cygwin.
Had also tried using Linux for a while, but switched back mostly to
Windows due to general frustrations with Linux.

>
> Not that long after, my family moved to a different state, and I now
> remember parents telling me not to tell anyone about any of this.
>

Namely OR to NV.

The big change here was that I was expected to sit though classes with
everyone else, rather than being more free to "just do whatever".

But, given several decades have passed and my life hasn't amounted to
much, it probably doesn't really matter much anymore.

Similarly, from then on, it was basically just me by myself for all my
computer-related tinkering.

Well, at least until I started posting around on Usenet and similar a
few years later.

>
> Typically (by HS):
>   Whiteboards were most commonly used;
>   Overhead projectors / transparencies were also common;
>   Sometimes also a TV on a cart with a VCR or DVD player;
>   Projectors connected up to a computer;
>   ...
>
> This was back in the era when laptops were a rare and expensive novelty.
> Some people also had cellphones (of the flip-phone variety), but they
> were the minority (most students did not have cellphones AFAIK).
>
> Developments shortly after high-school were mostly:
>   Cheaper laptops;
>   The rise of smartphones;
>   CRT monitors getting steadily replaced with LCD monitors;
>   ...
>
>
> I had noted that depictions of school settings on TV usually showed
> teachers using chalkboards (rather than whiteboards), with a general
> absence of any computers.
>
> Well, also differences:
>   It was much more densely packed vs TV depictions;
>     Lots more people in each class;
>     Lots more people in the halls;
>     ...
>   It had guards walking the halls during class times:
>     They would generally go around with dogs on leashes, ...
>     One would need to show the guard their hall pass to go anywhere;
>     Also, they had metal gates they would close during class time;
>     ...
>
> So, some guards would walk dogs through the halls during class, and
> others did not have dogs.
>
> In the time between classes, there was also not generally any time to
> socialize, generally ones' goal was more to get from one class to the
> next before the bell rang (or, more like, certain sounds played over the
> intercom). One couldn't take too long, or else they would be marked as
> late. One generally had about 5 minutes to get from one class to the next.
>
>
> Not actually sure what it is typically like now.
>
>
>>
>> How did any of us learn?  I didn't even have a 4 function calculator
>> until I was in high school.
>>
>
> I was in the era of the TI-83+ line...
>
> It was also an era where some people had cable modems or DSL, and other
> people were still using dial-up.
>
> High-school for me was also in the transition period between Win98 and
> Windows XP, but I was an oddball person running Windows 2000 as their
> main OS.
>
> Not long after high-school, I ended up switching over to XP-X64
> (generally ran this until later switching over to Windows 7).
>
>

On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 11:55:39 PM UTC-5, George Neuner wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 03:06:56 -0500, BGB <cr8...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> How did any of us learn? I didn't even have a 4 function calculator
> until I was in high school.
<
They had not manufactured the first 4-function calculator when I graduated
from high school.
>
> YMMV,
> George

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 4:23:46 AM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
> On 10/23/2021 11:55 PM, George Neuner wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 03:06:56 -0500, BGB <cr8...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > The primary beneficiaries of these programs are companies like Apple
> > and Google. It's debatable whether having a computer really will help
> > the average primary school student learn, and whether the benefit of
> > computers over books and pencils justifies the cost to the school
> > system, and to the taxpayers that support it.
> >
> Yeah...
>
> Back when I was school-age, it was still mostly in the era of textbooks
> and assignments being done on paper print-outs.
>
> Computers were often around, typically as a row of desktop PCs along a
> wall somewhere, but not typically used in normal class activities.
>
>
> For me, this was true in elementary school as well, just back then they
> were mostly running MS-DOS or sometimes Windows (Windows 3.11 and
> Windows 95 were common). At this time, teachers ended up mostly just
> letting me poke around on computers and write stuff in QBasic and
> similar (from what I remember, unlike most of the other students, I was
> mostly just sorta allowed to "do whatever" during these years).
>
> I have a vague memory of at one point going off somewhere else where
> they had me do some tests and similar. Don't remember, I think I talked
> to some people, also have a vague (strange) memory of being asked to
> assemble some 3D puzzles while in a room by myself behind a 1-way mirror.
<
I was a sophomore in an Algebra 2 class comprised of mostly seniors.
I sat in the back of the room so as to not annoy the seniors. One day I
was doing Latin homework and not paying any attention, at which time
the teacher called upon me, I looked at the scribbling on the board and
emitted the correct answer. The teacher did not bother me again. The
seniors were both annoyed and amazed.

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:31:59 AM UTC-5, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > A "bar" friend was having problems with his mechanical free-ing of
> > data in business application; it was taking too much time {write,
> > debug, allocate, free}. I convinced him to fork off the sub-task and
> > allow the OS to clean up the memory without free-ing. Not only did
> > this work first time, and get rid of memory leaks, but it ran 30% faster
> > to boot.
> This generalizes to a memory management style called
> zones/pools/regions (in GCC it was called obstacks).
>
> Rust's "liftetimes" are closely related to those "regions".
<
PL/1 had areas. If you deallocated an area, everything you allocated in the area
"went away".
>
>
> Stefan

On 10/24/2021 10:38 AM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:31:59 AM UTC-5, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> A "bar" friend was having problems with his mechanical free-ing of
>>> data in business application; it was taking too much time {write,
>>> debug, allocate, free}. I convinced him to fork off the sub-task and
>>> allow the OS to clean up the memory without free-ing. Not only did
>>> this work first time, and get rid of memory leaks, but it ran 30% faster
>>> to boot.
>> This generalizes to a memory management style called
>> zones/pools/regions (in GCC it was called obstacks).
>>
>> Rust's "liftetimes" are closely related to those "regions".
> <
> PL/1 had areas. If you deallocated an area, everything you allocated in the area
> "went away".
>>
>>
>> Stefan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Region-based_memory_management

On 2021-10-24 20:38, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:31:59 AM UTC-5, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> A "bar" friend was having problems with his mechanical free-ing of
>>> data in business application; it was taking too much time {write,
>>> debug, allocate, free}. I convinced him to fork off the sub-task and
>>> allow the OS to clean up the memory without free-ing. Not only did
>>> this work first time, and get rid of memory leaks, but it ran 30% faster
>>> to boot.
>> This generalizes to a memory management style called
>> zones/pools/regions (in GCC it was called obstacks).
>>
>> Rust's "liftetimes" are closely related to those "regions".
> <
> PL/1 had areas. If you deallocated an area, everything you allocated in the area
> "went away".

Ada has "storage pools" that can be divided into "subpools". These
permit mass deallocation, but avoiding dangling pointers into the
deleted pool or subpool remains programmer responsibility.

On 10/24/2021 12:33 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 4:23:46 AM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>> On 10/23/2021 11:55 PM, George Neuner wrote:
>>> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 03:06:56 -0500, BGB <cr8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> The primary beneficiaries of these programs are companies like Apple
>>> and Google. It's debatable whether having a computer really will help
>>> the average primary school student learn, and whether the benefit of
>>> computers over books and pencils justifies the cost to the school
>>> system, and to the taxpayers that support it.
>>>
>> Yeah...
>>
>> Back when I was school-age, it was still mostly in the era of textbooks
>> and assignments being done on paper print-outs.
>>
>> Computers were often around, typically as a row of desktop PCs along a
>> wall somewhere, but not typically used in normal class activities.
>>
>>
>> For me, this was true in elementary school as well, just back then they
>> were mostly running MS-DOS or sometimes Windows (Windows 3.11 and
>> Windows 95 were common). At this time, teachers ended up mostly just
>> letting me poke around on computers and write stuff in QBasic and
>> similar (from what I remember, unlike most of the other students, I was
>> mostly just sorta allowed to "do whatever" during these years).
>>
>> I have a vague memory of at one point going off somewhere else where
>> they had me do some tests and similar. Don't remember, I think I talked
>> to some people, also have a vague (strange) memory of being asked to
>> assemble some 3D puzzles while in a room by myself behind a 1-way mirror.
> <
> I was a sophomore in an Algebra 2 class comprised of mostly seniors.
> I sat in the back of the room so as to not annoy the seniors. One day I
> was doing Latin homework and not paying any attention, at which time
> the teacher called upon me, I looked at the scribbling on the board and
> emitted the correct answer. The teacher did not bother me again. The
> seniors were both annoyed and amazed.
>

Yeah.

I am just not sure of the purpose of the 3D puzzle test, I don't see any
mention of anything like this when looking up other standardized tests.

I think this was after doing a bunch of more usual tests, like "which
pattern of dots and colors comes next" or "which of these shapes is the
other shape flipped over".

A lot of the similar 3D puzzles (eg, assembling various pieces into
cubes and similar) are more just unclear how they are supposed to be
difficult.

I am not usually that much into more traditional jigsaw puzzles or
similar though, partly because I don't find them all that interesting
and it is effort to sort out and assemble the pieces (like, usually I
have other more interesting stuff to be doing with my time).

In high-school, in a "speech class", I was a few times tasked with doing
a collaborative jigsaw puzzles (with a female who had an unusual level
of obsession with the Star Wars movies), but I mostly didn't participate
that much with the puzzle, since if I did all that much, it would get
assembled too quickly and she would get angry about it.

Her process wasn't very efficient though, mostly trying vaguely similar
pieces one at a time until finding ones that fit, rather than grabbing
matching pieces from the spread more directly.

High-school was a mixed bag, I generally didn't do much of anything in
the classes, but just sort of "still passed somehow" (did tests, got a
free pass on the homework). Assignments mostly seemed like pointless
busywork, and it was generally enough of a challenge trying to "not lose
my crap" just sitting there. A few times, if I got too worked up, they
would take me off and have me sit in a dimly lit closet until I calmed
down enough to regain some semblance of functioning (a few times I hit
my limit and ended up hiding under the desks and similar).

Like, my younger self had significant "general anxiety" issues (*).
Some years later, generally got better at "holding everything together".

*: Or, say, one has anxiety issues, and sensory issues, and anxiety
causes the sensory issues to get worse, which in turn leads to more
anxiety, ... Until one reaches a state where world around them becomes
rather unpleasant and difficult to deal with (everything can become
overly bright and physically painful, and there was a strong impulse to
go find a dark space to hide in).

Well, and in HS, I had a GF, and in one class the teacher looked like
and reminded me too much of her, which also caused anxiety issues.

Not that long after this, said GF left, and technically I have been
alone ever since (never meeting anyone who seems all that compatible or
all that interested in me, ...).

....

On 10/24/2021 1:25 PM, BGB wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 12:33 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 4:23:46 AM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>>> On 10/23/2021 11:55 PM, George Neuner wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 03:06:56 -0500, BGB <cr8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> The primary beneficiaries of these programs are companies like Apple
>>>> and Google. It's debatable whether having a computer really will help
>>>> the average primary school student learn, and whether the benefit of
>>>> computers over books and pencils justifies the cost to the school
>>>> system, and to the taxpayers that support it.
>>>>
>>> Yeah...
>>>
>>> Back when I was school-age, it was still mostly in the era of textbooks
>>> and assignments being done on paper print-outs.
>>>
>>> Computers were often around, typically as a row of desktop PCs along a
>>> wall somewhere, but not typically used in normal class activities.
>>>
>>>
>>> For me, this was true in elementary school as well, just back then they
>>> were mostly running MS-DOS or sometimes Windows (Windows 3.11 and
>>> Windows 95 were common). At this time, teachers ended up mostly just
>>> letting me poke around on computers and write stuff in QBasic and
>>> similar (from what I remember, unlike most of the other students, I was
>>> mostly just sorta allowed to "do whatever" during these years).
>>>
>>> I have a vague memory of at one point going off somewhere else where
>>> they had me do some tests and similar. Don't remember, I think I talked
>>> to some people, also have a vague (strange) memory of being asked to
>>> assemble some 3D puzzles while in a room by myself behind a 1-way
>>> mirror.
>> <
>> I was a sophomore in an Algebra 2 class comprised of mostly seniors.
>> I sat in the back of the room so as to not annoy the seniors. One day I
>> was doing Latin homework and not paying any attention, at which time
>> the teacher called upon me, I looked at the scribbling on the board and
>> emitted the correct answer. The teacher did not bother me again. The
>> seniors were both annoyed and amazed.
>>
>
> Yeah.
>
> I am just not sure of the purpose of the 3D puzzle test, I don't see any
> mention of anything like this when looking up other standardized tests.
>
> I think this was after doing a bunch of more usual tests, like "which
> pattern of dots and colors comes next" or "which of these shapes is the
> other shape flipped over".
>
> A lot of the similar 3D puzzles (eg, assembling various pieces into
> cubes and similar) are more just unclear how they are supposed to be
> difficult.
>
>
> I am not usually that much into more traditional jigsaw puzzles or
> similar though, partly because I don't find them all that interesting
> and it is effort to sort out and assemble the pieces (like, usually I
> have other more interesting stuff to be doing with my time).
>
> In high-school, in a "speech class", I was a few times tasked with doing
> a collaborative jigsaw puzzles (with a female who had an unusual level
> of obsession with the Star Wars movies), but I mostly didn't participate
> that much with the puzzle, since if I did all that much, it would get
> assembled too quickly and she would get angry about it.
>
> Her process wasn't very efficient though, mostly trying vaguely similar
> pieces one at a time until finding ones that fit, rather than grabbing
> matching pieces from the spread more directly.
>
>
> High-school was a mixed bag, I generally didn't do much of anything in
> the classes, but just sort of "still passed somehow" (did tests, got a
> free pass on the homework). Assignments mostly seemed like pointless
> busywork, and it was generally enough of a challenge trying to "not lose
> my crap" just sitting there. A few times, if I got too worked up, they
> would take me off and have me sit in a dimly lit closet until I calmed
> down enough to regain some semblance of functioning (a few times I hit
> my limit and ended up hiding under the desks and similar).
>
> Like, my younger self had significant "general anxiety" issues (*).
> Some years later, generally got better at "holding everything together".
>
> *: Or, say, one has anxiety issues, and sensory issues, and anxiety
> causes the sensory issues to get worse, which in turn leads to more
> anxiety, ... Until one reaches a state where world around them becomes
> rather unpleasant and difficult to deal with (everything can become
> overly bright and physically painful, and there was a strong impulse to
> go find a dark space to hide in).
>
>
> Well, and in HS, I had a GF, and in one class the teacher looked like
> and reminded me too much of her, which also caused anxiety issues.
>
> Not that long after this, said GF left, and technically I have been
> alone ever since (never meeting anyone who seems all that compatible or
> all that interested in me, ...).
>
> ...

You ever put jigsaw puzzles together upside down?

That South African company (don't remember name - premium product
though) had a puzzle called "Red Ridinghood's Cloak" - it was solid red...

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:25:45 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 12:33 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 4:23:46 AM UTC-5, BGB wrote:

> > I was a sophomore in an Algebra 2 class comprised of mostly seniors.
> > I sat in the back of the room so as to not annoy the seniors. One day I
> > was doing Latin homework and not paying any attention, at which time
> > the teacher called upon me, I looked at the scribbling on the board and
> > emitted the correct answer. The teacher did not bother me again. The
> > seniors were both annoyed and amazed.
> >
> Yeah.
>
> I am just not sure of the purpose of the 3D puzzle test, I don't see any
> mention of anything like this when looking up other standardized tests.
>
> I think this was after doing a bunch of more usual tests, like "which
> pattern of dots and colors comes next" or "which of these shapes is the
> other shape flipped over".
>
> A lot of the similar 3D puzzles (eg, assembling various pieces into
> cubes and similar) are more just unclear how they are supposed to be
> difficult.
<
They are only "difficult" to people whose 3D section of the brain does not
work at the level your does. I never had any trouble with these either.
A couple of Christmas's ago, I got a set of #D toys as a gag-gift.
I can solve these visually without even handling the puzzles. IN fact
they are still in their wrapper.
>
>
> I am not usually that much into more traditional jigsaw puzzles or
> similar though, partly because I don't find them all that interesting
> and it is effort to sort out and assemble the pieces (like, usually I
> have other more interesting stuff to be doing with my time).
<
Get the ones with 5,000 pieces, or build model ships from raw materials
{Hint: not from a kit, but from original blueprints.}
>
> In high-school, in a "speech class", I was a few times tasked with doing
> a collaborative jigsaw puzzles (with a female who had an unusual level
> of obsession with the Star Wars movies), but I mostly didn't participate
> that much with the puzzle, since if I did all that much, it would get
> assembled too quickly and she would get angry about it.
<
My team mates in EE-lab 204 ask me to come in an hour late so they
would have a chance at the solution before I arrived. The teacher ask
why I was continually late and I just pointed at my team mates.....They
agreed.......
>
> Her process wasn't very efficient though, mostly trying vaguely similar
> pieces one at a time until finding ones that fit, rather than grabbing
> matching pieces from the spread more directly.
>
>
> High-school was a mixed bag, I generally didn't do much of anything in
> the classes, but just sort of "still passed somehow" (did tests, got a
> free pass on the homework). Assignments mostly seemed like pointless
> busywork, and it was generally enough of a challenge trying to "not lose
> my crap" just sitting there.
<
I was the kind of "kid" in algebra that once they pointed out that if you
take a sum "to the other side" it becomes a minus, division becomes
multiplication,... I got it the first time. The rest of the class had to be
shown this magic hundred of times before it sunk in.
<
> A few times, if I got too worked up, they
> would take me off and have me sit in a dimly lit closet until I calmed
> down enough to regain some semblance of functioning (a few times I hit
> my limit and ended up hiding under the desks and similar).
>
> Like, my younger self had significant "general anxiety" issues (*).
> Some years later, generally got better at "holding everything together".
<
Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
>

According to Ivan Godard <ivan@millcomputing.com>:
>>   It had guards walking the halls during class times:
>>     They would generally go around with dogs on leashes, ...

Ewww.

>Young whippersnappers! In my entire educational career, such as it was
>and what there was of it, no school or university I attended so much as
>owned a computer.
>
>Nor whiteboards either, now that I remember. They invented chalk in the
>Jurassic, it should be good enough for computation!

When I was an undergraduate I was thrilled to be able to use a Wang calculator
with Nixie tube display in the department library for some of my chemistry
homework. But I still have a slide rule in my backpack. You never know.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On 10/24/2021 11:11 AM, Ivan Godard wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 2:23 AM, BGB wrote:
>> On 10/23/2021 11:55 PM, George Neuner wrote:
>>> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 03:06:56 -0500, BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/21/2021 12:16 AM, George Neuner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Same with schools - the idea to give every child a laptop or pad is
>>>>> just wasteful. For roughly 2/3 what they are currently spending on
>>>>> portables, school systems could put thin terminals at every desk and
>>>>> give every student a small desk computer to use at home.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do any schools actually do this?...
>>>>
>>>> Usual thing on the news is schools having issues with inability to pay
>>>> teachers due to budget shortfalls and similar, inability to afford
>>>> textbooks, ...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, at least in the U.S., there are quite a few school
>>> systems that simply hand out devices, and many more that demand the
>>> student purchase the device in order to attend.  Often purchase
>>> requirements are partially subsidized (with taxpayer money), but not
>>> always.
>>>
>>> Then it is expected that the student has Internet access from home.
>>> For low income students, that isn't necessarily true, and then there
>>> is a division between the haves who can work at home, and have nots
>>> who can use their devices only at school, or in a library, or have to
>>> find a place with free WiFi.
>>>
>>> So then come the municipal scale projects to supply WiFi everywhere,
>>> and government subsidies (in addition to their own fee structures for
>>> ordinary customers) for ISPs to provide service to low income people
>>> at little or no cost.
>>>
>>> And, of course, since children can't be trusted with IT security,
>>> these devices typically are not "general purpose" but rather are so
>>> locked down that they barely qualify as "computers" ... it may look
>>> like a Chromebook, but it's just an expensive Speak-n-Spell.
>>>
>>> The primary beneficiaries of these programs are companies like Apple
>>> and Google.  It's debatable whether having a computer really will help
>>> the average primary school student learn, and whether the benefit of
>>> computers over books and pencils justifies the cost to the school
>>> system, and to the taxpayers that support it.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah...
>>
>> Back when I was school-age, it was still mostly in the era of
>> textbooks and assignments being done on paper print-outs.
>>
>> Computers were often around, typically as a row of desktop PCs along a
>> wall somewhere, but not typically used in normal class activities.
>>
>>
>> For me, this was true in elementary school as well, just back then
>> they were mostly running MS-DOS or sometimes Windows (Windows 3.11 and
>> Windows 95 were common). At this time, teachers ended up mostly just
>> letting me poke around on computers and write stuff in QBasic and
>> similar (from what I remember, unlike most of the other students, I
>> was mostly just sorta allowed to "do whatever" during these years).
>>
>> I have a vague memory of at one point going off somewhere else where
>> they had me do some tests and similar. Don't remember, I think I
>> talked to some people, also have a vague (strange) memory of being
>> asked to assemble some 3D puzzles while in a room by myself behind a
>> 1-way mirror.
>>
>> After this, they just let me do whatever I felt like doing (which,
>> granted, was mostly just poking at QBasic on the computer...).
>> Actually, I think I also remember now they had sent me a few times
>> (and I think another person, who was female) to another smaller room
>> with an adult guy who I remember mostly talking about programming
>> stuff (namely Borland Pascal and similar; but I had more of a
>> preference for C than Pascal). I think the female was around for some
>> of the other "do stuff with computers" activities (but, I don't
>> remember much else about her, other than her personality being a
>> little more harsh/abrasive than many of the other kids; there were
>> generally no other students present other than us).
>>
>> Also, in this room, there were some Macs, and a few of these computers
>> had magneto-optical drives (of the 130mm variety), or at least the
>> ones that had Turbo C and Pascal had the magneto-optical drives.
>>
>> On my own time, I was mostly messing with Turbo C and TASM and similar
>> instead, and trying to make sense of the Wolf3D and Doom source.
>>
>> My early years seem kinda weird when I think back on them.
>>
>>
>> Not that long after, my family moved to a different state, and I now
>> remember parents telling me not to tell anyone about any of this.
>>
>>
>> Typically (by HS):
>>    Whiteboards were most commonly used;
>>    Overhead projectors / transparencies were also common;
>>    Sometimes also a TV on a cart with a VCR or DVD player;
>>    Projectors connected up to a computer;
>>    ...
>>
>> This was back in the era when laptops were a rare and expensive novelty.
>> Some people also had cellphones (of the flip-phone variety), but they
>> were the minority (most students did not have cellphones AFAIK).
>>
>> Developments shortly after high-school were mostly:
>>    Cheaper laptops;
>>    The rise of smartphones;
>>    CRT monitors getting steadily replaced with LCD monitors;
>>    ...
>>
>>
>> I had noted that depictions of school settings on TV usually showed
>> teachers using chalkboards (rather than whiteboards), with a general
>> absence of any computers.
>>
>> Well, also differences:
>>    It was much more densely packed vs TV depictions;
>>      Lots more people in each class;
>>      Lots more people in the halls;
>>      ...
>>    It had guards walking the halls during class times:
>>      They would generally go around with dogs on leashes, ...
>>      One would need to show the guard their hall pass to go anywhere;
>>      Also, they had metal gates they would close during class time;
>>      ...
>>
>> So, some guards would walk dogs through the halls during class, and
>> others did not have dogs.
>>
>> In the time between classes, there was also not generally any time to
>> socialize, generally ones' goal was more to get from one class to the
>> next before the bell rang (or, more like, certain sounds played over
>> the intercom). One couldn't take too long, or else they would be
>> marked as late. One generally had about 5 minutes to get from one
>> class to the next.
>>
>>
>> Not actually sure what it is typically like now.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> How did any of us learn?  I didn't even have a 4 function calculator
>>> until I was in high school.
>>>
>>
>> I was in the era of the TI-83+ line...
>>
>> It was also an era where some people had cable modems or DSL, and
>> other people were still using dial-up.
>>
>> High-school for me was also in the transition period between Win98 and
>> Windows XP, but I was an oddball person running Windows 2000 as their
>> main OS.
>>
>> Not long after high-school, I ended up switching over to XP-X64
>> (generally ran this until later switching over to Windows 7).
>>
>>
>
> Young whippersnappers! In my entire educational career, such as it was
> and what there was of it, no school or university I attended so much as
> owned a computer.
>
> Nor whiteboards either, now that I remember. They invented chalk in the
> Jurassic, it should be good enough for computation!
>

Yeah, I was born near the end of the 20th century. I have lived the
majority of my lifespan in the 21st century.

But, I am "ancient" compared with the newer wave of 'adults' whose
entire lives have existed within the 21st century.

I guess it is a question of if, by the end of my lifespan, the relative
age difference between someone like myself, Gen Y, vs the Gen Z people,
will really matter all that much...

On 10/24/2021 2:41 PM, John Levine wrote:
> According to Ivan Godard <ivan@millcomputing.com>:
>>>   It had guards walking the halls during class times:
>>>     They would generally go around with dogs on leashes, ...
>
> Ewww.
>
>> Young whippersnappers! In my entire educational career, such as it was
>> and what there was of it, no school or university I attended so much as
>> owned a computer.
>>
>> Nor whiteboards either, now that I remember. They invented chalk in the
>> Jurassic, it should be good enough for computation!
>
> When I was an undergraduate I was thrilled to be able to use a Wang calculator
> with Nixie tube display in the department library for some of my chemistry
> homework. But I still have a slide rule in my backpack. You never know.

Ah, Wang Labs. We did a Fortran compiler for them. An Wang was the only
person I know of who personally invented three billion dollar industries
- calculators, core memory, and word processing - and back when a
billion was a real number.

The family was a tragic confirmation of the adage of "slum to palace to
slum in four generations".

On 10/24/2021 2:10 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:25:45 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 12:33 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 4:23:46 AM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>
>>> I was a sophomore in an Algebra 2 class comprised of mostly seniors.
>>> I sat in the back of the room so as to not annoy the seniors. One day I
>>> was doing Latin homework and not paying any attention, at which time
>>> the teacher called upon me, I looked at the scribbling on the board and
>>> emitted the correct answer. The teacher did not bother me again. The
>>> seniors were both annoyed and amazed.
>>>
>> Yeah.
>>
>> I am just not sure of the purpose of the 3D puzzle test, I don't see any
>> mention of anything like this when looking up other standardized tests.
>>
>> I think this was after doing a bunch of more usual tests, like "which
>> pattern of dots and colors comes next" or "which of these shapes is the
>> other shape flipped over".
>>
>> A lot of the similar 3D puzzles (eg, assembling various pieces into
>> cubes and similar) are more just unclear how they are supposed to be
>> difficult.
> <
> They are only "difficult" to people whose 3D section of the brain does not
> work at the level your does. I never had any trouble with these either.
> A couple of Christmas's ago, I got a set of #D toys as a gag-gift.
> I can solve these visually without even handling the puzzles. IN fact
> they are still in their wrapper.
>>
>>
>> I am not usually that much into more traditional jigsaw puzzles or
>> similar though, partly because I don't find them all that interesting
>> and it is effort to sort out and assemble the pieces (like, usually I
>> have other more interesting stuff to be doing with my time).
> <
> Get the ones with 5,000 pieces, or build model ships from raw materials
> {Hint: not from a kit, but from original blueprints.}
>>
>> In high-school, in a "speech class", I was a few times tasked with doing
>> a collaborative jigsaw puzzles (with a female who had an unusual level
>> of obsession with the Star Wars movies), but I mostly didn't participate
>> that much with the puzzle, since if I did all that much, it would get
>> assembled too quickly and she would get angry about it.
> <
> My team mates in EE-lab 204 ask me to come in an hour late so they
> would have a chance at the solution before I arrived. The teacher ask
> why I was continually late and I just pointed at my team mates.....They
> agreed.......
>>
>> Her process wasn't very efficient though, mostly trying vaguely similar
>> pieces one at a time until finding ones that fit, rather than grabbing
>> matching pieces from the spread more directly.
>>
>>
>> High-school was a mixed bag, I generally didn't do much of anything in
>> the classes, but just sort of "still passed somehow" (did tests, got a
>> free pass on the homework). Assignments mostly seemed like pointless
>> busywork, and it was generally enough of a challenge trying to "not lose
>> my crap" just sitting there.
> <
> I was the kind of "kid" in algebra that once they pointed out that if you
> take a sum "to the other side" it becomes a minus, division becomes
> multiplication,... I got it the first time. The rest of the class had to be
> shown this magic hundred of times before it sunk in.
> <
>> A few times, if I got too worked up, they
>> would take me off and have me sit in a dimly lit closet until I calmed
>> down enough to regain some semblance of functioning (a few times I hit
>> my limit and ended up hiding under the desks and similar).
>>
>> Like, my younger self had significant "general anxiety" issues (*).
>> Some years later, generally got better at "holding everything together".
> <
> Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
>>

Here's a quick one, looks like an algebra problem but is actually for 3D
visualization. It was on a scholarship test, and we later used it in
recruiting at PDC:

Given a cube, one on a side. Inscribed sphere, tangent to the cube's
faces. In each corner an inscribed sphere, tangent to the three cube
faces and the central sphere. What is the volume of the cube not
occupied by the spheres?

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:28:51 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 11:11 AM, Ivan Godard wrote:

> > Young whippersnappers! In my entire educational career, such as it was
> > and what there was of it, no school or university I attended so much as
> > owned a computer.
> >
> > Nor whiteboards either, now that I remember. They invented chalk in the
> > Jurassic, it should be good enough for computation!
> >
> Yeah, I was born near the end of the 20th century. I have lived the
> majority of my lifespan in the 21st century.
>
> But, I am "ancient" compared with the newer wave of 'adults' whose
> entire lives have existed within the 21st century.
<
An adult is generally 21 years of age and older. So there are very few people
in the year 2021 that were born after Dec 31 2000 (or after Dec 31 2001 if you
prefer) that are adults.
<
The years between 18 and 21, the post adolescent does not have full rights of
citizenship (buy drinks,...) but sometimes can vote, be drafted, join armed forces,
and make host of decisions all by themselves.

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:38:12 PM UTC-5, Ivan Godard wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 2:10 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:25:45 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
> >> On 10/24/2021 12:33 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 4:23:46 AM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
> >
> >>> I was a sophomore in an Algebra 2 class comprised of mostly seniors.
> >>> I sat in the back of the room so as to not annoy the seniors. One day I
> >>> was doing Latin homework and not paying any attention, at which time
> >>> the teacher called upon me, I looked at the scribbling on the board and
> >>> emitted the correct answer. The teacher did not bother me again. The
> >>> seniors were both annoyed and amazed.
> >>>
> >> Yeah.
> >>
> >> I am just not sure of the purpose of the 3D puzzle test, I don't see any
> >> mention of anything like this when looking up other standardized tests.
> >>
> >> I think this was after doing a bunch of more usual tests, like "which
> >> pattern of dots and colors comes next" or "which of these shapes is the
> >> other shape flipped over".
> >>
> >> A lot of the similar 3D puzzles (eg, assembling various pieces into
> >> cubes and similar) are more just unclear how they are supposed to be
> >> difficult.
> > <
> > They are only "difficult" to people whose 3D section of the brain does not
> > work at the level your does. I never had any trouble with these either.
> > A couple of Christmas's ago, I got a set of #D toys as a gag-gift.
> > I can solve these visually without even handling the puzzles. IN fact
> > they are still in their wrapper.
> >>
> >>
> >> I am not usually that much into more traditional jigsaw puzzles or
> >> similar though, partly because I don't find them all that interesting
> >> and it is effort to sort out and assemble the pieces (like, usually I
> >> have other more interesting stuff to be doing with my time).
> > <
> > Get the ones with 5,000 pieces, or build model ships from raw materials
> > {Hint: not from a kit, but from original blueprints.}
> >>
> >> In high-school, in a "speech class", I was a few times tasked with doing
> >> a collaborative jigsaw puzzles (with a female who had an unusual level
> >> of obsession with the Star Wars movies), but I mostly didn't participate
> >> that much with the puzzle, since if I did all that much, it would get
> >> assembled too quickly and she would get angry about it.
> > <
> > My team mates in EE-lab 204 ask me to come in an hour late so they
> > would have a chance at the solution before I arrived. The teacher ask
> > why I was continually late and I just pointed at my team mates.....They
> > agreed.......
> >>
> >> Her process wasn't very efficient though, mostly trying vaguely similar
> >> pieces one at a time until finding ones that fit, rather than grabbing
> >> matching pieces from the spread more directly.
> >>
> >>
> >> High-school was a mixed bag, I generally didn't do much of anything in
> >> the classes, but just sort of "still passed somehow" (did tests, got a
> >> free pass on the homework). Assignments mostly seemed like pointless
> >> busywork, and it was generally enough of a challenge trying to "not lose
> >> my crap" just sitting there.
> > <
> > I was the kind of "kid" in algebra that once they pointed out that if you
> > take a sum "to the other side" it becomes a minus, division becomes
> > multiplication,... I got it the first time. The rest of the class had to be
> > shown this magic hundred of times before it sunk in.
> > <
> >> A few times, if I got too worked up, they
> >> would take me off and have me sit in a dimly lit closet until I calmed
> >> down enough to regain some semblance of functioning (a few times I hit
> >> my limit and ended up hiding under the desks and similar).
> >>
> >> Like, my younger self had significant "general anxiety" issues (*).
> >> Some years later, generally got better at "holding everything together".
> > <
> > Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
> >>
> Here's a quick one, looks like an algebra problem but is actually for 3D
> visualization. It was on a scholarship test, and we later used it in
> recruiting at PDC:
>
> Given a cube, one on a side. Inscribed sphere, tangent to the cube's
> faces. In each corner an inscribed sphere, tangent to the three cube
> faces and the central sphere. What is the volume of the cube not
> occupied by the spheres?
<
Too easy............

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:04:21 PM UTC-5, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:38:12 PM UTC-5, Ivan Godard wrote:
> > On 10/24/2021 2:10 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:25:45 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
> > >> On 10/24/2021 12:33 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> > >>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 4:23:46 AM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
> > >
> > >>> I was a sophomore in an Algebra 2 class comprised of mostly seniors.
> > >>> I sat in the back of the room so as to not annoy the seniors. One day I
> > >>> was doing Latin homework and not paying any attention, at which time
> > >>> the teacher called upon me, I looked at the scribbling on the board and
> > >>> emitted the correct answer. The teacher did not bother me again. The
> > >>> seniors were both annoyed and amazed.
> > >>>
> > >> Yeah.
> > >>
> > >> I am just not sure of the purpose of the 3D puzzle test, I don't see any
> > >> mention of anything like this when looking up other standardized tests.
> > >>
> > >> I think this was after doing a bunch of more usual tests, like "which
> > >> pattern of dots and colors comes next" or "which of these shapes is the
> > >> other shape flipped over".
> > >>
> > >> A lot of the similar 3D puzzles (eg, assembling various pieces into
> > >> cubes and similar) are more just unclear how they are supposed to be
> > >> difficult.
> > > <
> > > They are only "difficult" to people whose 3D section of the brain does not
> > > work at the level your does. I never had any trouble with these either.
> > > A couple of Christmas's ago, I got a set of #D toys as a gag-gift.
> > > I can solve these visually without even handling the puzzles. IN fact
> > > they are still in their wrapper.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I am not usually that much into more traditional jigsaw puzzles or
> > >> similar though, partly because I don't find them all that interesting
> > >> and it is effort to sort out and assemble the pieces (like, usually I
> > >> have other more interesting stuff to be doing with my time).
> > > <
> > > Get the ones with 5,000 pieces, or build model ships from raw materials
> > > {Hint: not from a kit, but from original blueprints.}
> > >>
> > >> In high-school, in a "speech class", I was a few times tasked with doing
> > >> a collaborative jigsaw puzzles (with a female who had an unusual level
> > >> of obsession with the Star Wars movies), but I mostly didn't participate
> > >> that much with the puzzle, since if I did all that much, it would get
> > >> assembled too quickly and she would get angry about it.
> > > <
> > > My team mates in EE-lab 204 ask me to come in an hour late so they
> > > would have a chance at the solution before I arrived. The teacher ask
> > > why I was continually late and I just pointed at my team mates.....They
> > > agreed.......
> > >>
> > >> Her process wasn't very efficient though, mostly trying vaguely similar
> > >> pieces one at a time until finding ones that fit, rather than grabbing
> > >> matching pieces from the spread more directly.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> High-school was a mixed bag, I generally didn't do much of anything in
> > >> the classes, but just sort of "still passed somehow" (did tests, got a
> > >> free pass on the homework). Assignments mostly seemed like pointless
> > >> busywork, and it was generally enough of a challenge trying to "not lose
> > >> my crap" just sitting there.
> > > <
> > > I was the kind of "kid" in algebra that once they pointed out that if you
> > > take a sum "to the other side" it becomes a minus, division becomes
> > > multiplication,... I got it the first time. The rest of the class had to be
> > > shown this magic hundred of times before it sunk in.
> > > <
> > >> A few times, if I got too worked up, they
> > >> would take me off and have me sit in a dimly lit closet until I calmed
> > >> down enough to regain some semblance of functioning (a few times I hit
> > >> my limit and ended up hiding under the desks and similar).
> > >>
> > >> Like, my younger self had significant "general anxiety" issues (*).
> > >> Some years later, generally got better at "holding everything together".
> > > <
> > > Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
> > >>
> > Here's a quick one, looks like an algebra problem but is actually for 3D
> > visualization. It was on a scholarship test, and we later used it in
> > recruiting at PDC:
> >
> > Given a cube, one on a side. Inscribed sphere, tangent to the cube's
> > faces. In each corner an inscribed sphere, tangent to the three cube
> > faces and the central sphere. What is the volume of the cube not
> > occupied by the spheres?
> <
> Too easy............

I'm a little late to the party. Have similar experiences.
Skipped Algebra 2 by examination, did Calculus in 12th grade by correspondence.
Generally tried not to embarrass either the teacher or the students.
College was disappointing, STEM was easy, German a disaster.
As college Freshman got access to IBM1620 and learned Fortran 1st semester.

Why do they make it hard for the bright students? You are bored most of the time.
Ran into zyBooks.com today. Perhaps that is the future of individualized instruction?
There is also a difficult interplay between your parents social status and your treatment.
The movie "Good Will Hunting" strikes a cord with me.

On 10/24/2021 4:10 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:25:45 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 12:33 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 4:23:46 AM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>
>>> I was a sophomore in an Algebra 2 class comprised of mostly seniors.
>>> I sat in the back of the room so as to not annoy the seniors. One day I
>>> was doing Latin homework and not paying any attention, at which time
>>> the teacher called upon me, I looked at the scribbling on the board and
>>> emitted the correct answer. The teacher did not bother me again. The
>>> seniors were both annoyed and amazed.
>>>
>> Yeah.
>>
>> I am just not sure of the purpose of the 3D puzzle test, I don't see any
>> mention of anything like this when looking up other standardized tests.
>>
>> I think this was after doing a bunch of more usual tests, like "which
>> pattern of dots and colors comes next" or "which of these shapes is the
>> other shape flipped over".
>>
>> A lot of the similar 3D puzzles (eg, assembling various pieces into
>> cubes and similar) are more just unclear how they are supposed to be
>> difficult.
> <
> They are only "difficult" to people whose 3D section of the brain does not
> work at the level your does. I never had any trouble with these either.
> A couple of Christmas's ago, I got a set of #D toys as a gag-gift.
> I can solve these visually without even handling the puzzles. IN fact
> they are still in their wrapper.

I just sorta remember it because the whole setup seemed "kinda weird".

My modern self still has stuff that if difficult to visualize, like the
way electromagnetic fields would propagate within a cyclotron or
waveguide, or the the way the organization of valence electrons within
various crystal structures might effect its magnetic properties.

I suspect these might be on the harder end of visual-spatial imagination
though.

Meanwhile, I also live in a world where most sci-fi isn't that much
different from fantasy, as your usual options are either pure fantasy
(overt magic and other fantastical elements), or basically the same sort
of stuff just with a veneer of "science" thrown on top.

Then we have the funkiness where some of the "harder" semi-mainstream
SciFi is stuff like MegaMan and Gundam, which while still often
including fantastical elements, at least usually don't base the entire
setting on things that are fantastical.

And, on the other side, people try to take stuff that is basically
fantasy (eg, Star Wars), and awkwardly retrofit a bunch of "science"
into it.

Or, as the say, "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic" but it is more like "sufficient technobabble over magic is
indistinguishable from technology".

Though, I do remember once where they had a video where the Game Theory
guy was talking to Neil deGrass Tyson about 'Rick and Morty', and was
taking some stuff from the show a little too seriously, and Neil said
something like "It is probably best if you don't take your understanding
of physics from cartoons" (or something to this effect).

I found this kinda amusing, but does point the sad implication that
there are probably a lot of people taking a lot of this stuff seriously.

Then there were "glimmer of hope" shows, like "The Expanse", which at
least started out within the realm of plausibility (and then promptly
crapping on it with the whole "Protomolecule" thing).

But, then did leave me thinking it would be nice if there were more
mainstream sci-fi that did actually stay within the realm of what is
scientifically plausible?...

>>
>>
>> I am not usually that much into more traditional jigsaw puzzles or
>> similar though, partly because I don't find them all that interesting
>> and it is effort to sort out and assemble the pieces (like, usually I
>> have other more interesting stuff to be doing with my time).
> <
> Get the ones with 5,000 pieces, or build model ships from raw materials
> {Hint: not from a kit, but from original blueprints.}

FWIW:
There is a lady on YouTube (Karen Kavett) who for the past few years has
been obsessing on jigsaw puzzles.

This includes some particularly huge ones (eg: 24k pieces).
I think she said there are some even bigger ones (eg: 100k pieces).

This seems more like a marathon effort than an "interesting" effort.
It is more just nice seeing her enthusiasm than much interest in
actually doing such puzzles.

Though, admittedly, more liked her crafting videos more, even if some of
her projects were a little questionable...

>>
>> In high-school, in a "speech class", I was a few times tasked with doing
>> a collaborative jigsaw puzzles (with a female who had an unusual level
>> of obsession with the Star Wars movies), but I mostly didn't participate
>> that much with the puzzle, since if I did all that much, it would get
>> assembled too quickly and she would get angry about it.
> <
> My team mates in EE-lab 204 ask me to come in an hour late so they
> would have a chance at the solution before I arrived. The teacher ask
> why I was continually late and I just pointed at my team mates.....They
> agreed.......

OK.

>>
>> Her process wasn't very efficient though, mostly trying vaguely similar
>> pieces one at a time until finding ones that fit, rather than grabbing
>> matching pieces from the spread more directly.
>>
>>
>> High-school was a mixed bag, I generally didn't do much of anything in
>> the classes, but just sort of "still passed somehow" (did tests, got a
>> free pass on the homework). Assignments mostly seemed like pointless
>> busywork, and it was generally enough of a challenge trying to "not lose
>> my crap" just sitting there.
> <
> I was the kind of "kid" in algebra that once they pointed out that if you
> take a sum "to the other side" it becomes a minus, division becomes
> multiplication,... I got it the first time. The rest of the class had to be
> shown this magic hundred of times before it sunk in.
> <

In algebra class, I had noted that one didn't even need to bother with
the symbolic manipulation parts for many of the problems.

Say:
y=m*x+b
Solve for X:
x=(y-b)/m

Most of the solutions could be turned into fairly straightforward linear
calculations.

This sort of thing partly backfired though when I got to college level
calculus classes, which were not as easily amended to these sorts of
shortcuts (and also the college level classes started throwing
set-theory and predicate logic notation on everything, and expecting
people to write proofs).

My younger self had sort of approached school like "I either already
know the answer or screw it", which turned out to not always be the best
strategy. Or, "I sat thought the class so I should already know whatever
is on the tests" (which faces a problem if the test asks questions on
things that one would only know if they actually did the homework).

So, I will not claim to have been particularly good at academics.

>> A few times, if I got too worked up, they
>> would take me off and have me sit in a dimly lit closet until I calmed
>> down enough to regain some semblance of functioning (a few times I hit
>> my limit and ended up hiding under the desks and similar).
>>
>> Like, my younger self had significant "general anxiety" issues (*).
>> Some years later, generally got better at "holding everything together".
> <
> Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
>>

On 10/24/2021 6:03 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:28:51 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 11:11 AM, Ivan Godard wrote:
>
>>> Young whippersnappers! In my entire educational career, such as it was
>>> and what there was of it, no school or university I attended so much as
>>> owned a computer.
>>>
>>> Nor whiteboards either, now that I remember. They invented chalk in the
>>> Jurassic, it should be good enough for computation!
>>>
>> Yeah, I was born near the end of the 20th century. I have lived the
>> majority of my lifespan in the 21st century.
>>
>> But, I am "ancient" compared with the newer wave of 'adults' whose
>> entire lives have existed within the 21st century.
> <
> An adult is generally 21 years of age and older. So there are very few people
> in the year 2021 that were born after Dec 31 2000 (or after Dec 31 2001 if you
> prefer) that are adults.
> <
> The years between 18 and 21, the post adolescent does not have full rights of
> citizenship (buy drinks,...) but sometimes can vote, be drafted, join armed forces,
> and make host of decisions all by themselves.
>

Granted, but a lot of them consider to themselves to be adults at 18...

But, meanwhile, I had started writing something (reasoning about how
people could be lumped into "similar age" depending on whether they
would have both been in high-school at the same time...).

But, then I noted that it appears, under this definition, I would
overlap with both ViHart (younger) and Doug Walker (older, "Nostalgia
Critic") in terms of "there exists a year where both people would have
been in high-school at the same time".

One could argue about "chronological age vs school-year-age epsilon",
but typically one can gloss over this this.

Could list more people, but can then note that it is kinda moot listing
people when pretty much anyone born in a window between 1981 and 1988
will overlap by at least one year (as well as potentially a few people
from 1980 and 1989 depending on how the age/year epsilon falls).

For example, Karen Kavett would also fall into this category due to
age-epsilon contrivance.

....

MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:25:45 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>> I am just not sure of the purpose of the 3D puzzle test, I don't see any
>> mention of anything like this when looking up other standardized tests.
>>
>> I think this was after doing a bunch of more usual tests, like "which
>> pattern of dots and colors comes next" or "which of these shapes is the
>> other shape flipped over".
>>
>> A lot of the similar 3D puzzles (eg, assembling various pieces into
>> cubes and similar) are more just unclear how they are supposed to be
>> difficult.
> <
> They are only "difficult" to people whose 3D section of the brain does not
> work at the level your does. I never had any trouble with these either.
> A couple of Christmas's ago, I got a set of #D toys as a gag-gift.
> I can solve these visually without even handling the puzzles. IN fact
> they are still in their wrapper.

I have a suspicion that both of you are rather far out on a few general
aptitude scales. :-)

I also strongly believe you would both like orienteering, where a (the?)
key differentiator between the best and the merely good/competent is the
ability to look at a very detailed contour map and immediately visualize
how the terrain will look when approached from your running direction.
The next step is the ability to do this for a larger area and know which
features will be the easiest to spot as you approach them, i.e. "that
knoll has an interesting shape and it is 5m taller than those around it".

Most orienteers never really get this, at best they get to the point
where they can look at the terrain in front of them and verify that it
(more or less) matches what the map shows.

Making parallel mistakes is _extremely_ common, i.e. when you are in the
wrong spot but the terrain there more or less matches what the map shows
for the area you believe you are in. This is sort of like picking jigsaw
pieces that seems like they could match.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

On 24.10.2021 19:38, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:31:59 AM UTC-5, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> <
> PL/1 had areas. If you deallocated an area, everything you allocated in the area
> "went away".

Original Pascal: Mark(b); ... New(p); ... Dispose(b);

On 10/24/2021 9:30 PM, BGB wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 4:10 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:25:45 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>>> On 10/24/2021 12:33 PM, MitchAlsup wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 4:23:46 AM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>>
>>>> I was a sophomore in an Algebra 2 class comprised of mostly seniors.
>>>> I sat in the back of the room so as to not annoy the seniors. One day I
>>>> was doing Latin homework and not paying any attention, at which time
>>>> the teacher called upon me, I looked at the scribbling on the board and
>>>> emitted the correct answer. The teacher did not bother me again. The
>>>> seniors were both annoyed and amazed.
>>>>
>>> Yeah.
>>>
>>> I am just not sure of the purpose of the 3D puzzle test, I don't see any
>>> mention of anything like this when looking up other standardized tests.
>>>
>>> I think this was after doing a bunch of more usual tests, like "which
>>> pattern of dots and colors comes next" or "which of these shapes is the
>>> other shape flipped over".
>>>
>>> A lot of the similar 3D puzzles (eg, assembling various pieces into
>>> cubes and similar) are more just unclear how they are supposed to be
>>> difficult.
>> <
>> They are only "difficult" to people whose 3D section of the brain does
>> not
>> work at the level your does. I never had any trouble with these either.
>> A couple of Christmas's ago, I got a set of #D toys as a gag-gift.
>> I can solve these visually without even handling the puzzles. IN fact
>> they are still in their wrapper.
>
> I just sorta remember it because the whole setup seemed "kinda weird".
>
>
> My modern self still has stuff that if difficult to visualize, like the
> way electromagnetic fields would propagate within a cyclotron or
> waveguide, or the the way the organization of valence electrons within
> various crystal structures might effect its magnetic properties.
>
> I suspect these might be on the harder end of visual-spatial imagination
> though.
>
>
> Meanwhile, I also live in a world where most sci-fi isn't that much
> different from fantasy, as your usual options are either pure fantasy
> (overt magic and other fantastical elements), or basically the same sort
> of stuff just with a veneer of "science" thrown on top.
>
> Then we have the funkiness where some of the "harder" semi-mainstream
> SciFi is stuff like MegaMan and Gundam, which while still often
> including fantastical elements, at least usually don't base the entire
> setting on things that are fantastical.
>
>
> And, on the other side, people try to take stuff that is basically
> fantasy (eg, Star Wars), and awkwardly retrofit a bunch of "science"
> into it.
>
> Or, as the say, "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
> from magic" but it is more like "sufficient technobabble over magic is
> indistinguishable from technology".

+1 !

On 25/10/2021 01:03, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:28:51 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 11:11 AM, Ivan Godard wrote:
>
>>> Young whippersnappers! In my entire educational career, such as it was
>>> and what there was of it, no school or university I attended so much as
>>> owned a computer.
>>>
>>> Nor whiteboards either, now that I remember. They invented chalk in the
>>> Jurassic, it should be good enough for computation!
>>>
>> Yeah, I was born near the end of the 20th century. I have lived the
>> majority of my lifespan in the 21st century.
>>
>> But, I am "ancient" compared with the newer wave of 'adults' whose
>> entire lives have existed within the 21st century.
> <
> An adult is generally 21 years of age and older. So there are very few people
> in the year 2021 that were born after Dec 31 2000 (or after Dec 31 2001 if you
> prefer) that are adults.
> <
> The years between 18 and 21, the post adolescent does not have full rights of
> citizenship (buy drinks,...) but sometimes can vote, be drafted, join armed forces,
> and make host of decisions all by themselves.
>

Perhaps that is the case in /your/ country - one of only about 200 in
the world. This is an international group.

In most of the world, 18 is the point at which you become an "adult" for
the majority of purposes - you can vote, drink alcohol, leave home, get
married, make all your own decisions, you are fully responsible for your
own actions, etc. There is some variation on the details, but 18 is the
generally accepted boundary between "child" and "adult". To pretty much
anyone the world over, including the USA, "adult" means 18+.

(Of course there are always things you are allowed to do earlier, and
things you can't do until later, and there are good biological arguments
for picking the line at almost any point between about 14 and 25.)

Ivan Godard wrote:
>
> Here's a quick one, looks like an algebra problem but is actually for 3D
> visualization. It was on a scholarship test, and we later used it in
> recruiting at PDC:
>
> Given a cube, one on a side. Inscribed sphere, tangent to the cube's
> faces. In each corner an inscribed sphere, tangent to the three cube
> faces and the central sphere. What is the volume of the cube not
> occupied by the spheres?

That seemed really hard, but I'm pretty sure it helps a lot to realize
that each of those smaller corner spheres can have a smaller cube around
it, and that three of those cube faces will overlap with the larger
cube. This means that first, the diagonal distance from the large sphere
to a corner will be (3^-3 - 1)/2, or about 0.22. That distance will then
be split by a small sphere with the same ratio from center to corner, or
(1+power(3,1/3)) * (-1+power(3,1/3)) / 4.

Am I on the right track?
:-)

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"