Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Do not use the blue keys on this terminal.


devel / comp.arch / Re: A Shortage of Sand

SubjectAuthor
* A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
+- Re: A Shortage of SandBranimir Maksimovic
+* Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|+* Re: A Shortage of SandBranimir Maksimovic
||`* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|| +- Re: A Shortage of SandBranimir Maksimovic
|| `* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
||  +* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
||  |`* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
||  | `- Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
||  +* Re: A Shortage of SandTerje Mathisen
||  |+* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
||  ||`- Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
||  |`* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
||  | +* Re: A Shortage of SandIvan Godard
||  | |`- Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
||  | +* Re: A Shortage of Sandclamky
||  | |`* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
||  | | `- Re: A Shortage of Sandclamky
||  | +* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
||  | |+- Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
||  | |`* Re: A Shortage of SandTom Gardner
||  | | `* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
||  | |  `* Re: A Shortage of SandTom Gardner
||  | |   `- Re: A Shortage of SandBGB
||  | +- Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
||  | `* Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
||  |  +- Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
||  |  +* Re: A Shortage of SandJohn Dallman
||  |  |`- Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
||  |  `- Re: A Shortage of history, was SandJohn Levine
||  `* Re: A Shortage of Sandantispam
||   +* Re: A Shortage of SandEricP
||   |`- Re: A Shortage of SandEricP
||   `* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
||    `* Re: A Shortage of Sandantispam
||     `- Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|+* Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
||+- Re: A Shortage of SandBGB
||+- Re: A Shortage of SandThomas Koenig
||+* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||`* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
||| `* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  +* Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|||  |`* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | `- Re: A Shortage of SandBrett
|||  +* Re: A Shortage of SandIvan Godard
|||  |`* Re: A Shortage of Sandchris
|||  | +* Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|||  | |+- Re: A Shortage of SandBGB
|||  | |`* Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
|||  | | `* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | |  +* Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
|||  | |  |`- Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|||  | |  `* Re: A Shortage of SandBGB
|||  | |   +- Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|||  | |   `* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
|||  | |    +* Re: A Shortage of SandBGB
|||  | |    |`* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
|||  | |    | `* Re: A Shortage of Sandantispam
|||  | |    |  +* Re: A Shortage of SandTerje Mathisen
|||  | |    |  |`* Re: A Shortage of SandJimBrakefield
|||  | |    |  | +- Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|||  | |    |  | `- Re: A Shortage of SandTim Rentsch
|||  | |    |  `* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
|||  | |    |   +* Re: A Shortage of SandBernd Linsel
|||  | |    |   |`- Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
|||  | |    |   +* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | |    |   |+* Re: A Shortage of SandTom Gardner
|||  | |    |   ||+- Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | |    |   ||`* Re: A Shortage of SandThomas Koenig
|||  | |    |   || `* Re: A Shortage of SandTom Gardner
|||  | |    |   ||  `- Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | |    |   |+* Re: A Shortage of Sandclamky
|||  | |    |   ||`* Re: A Shortage of Sandclamky
|||  | |    |   || `* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | |    |   ||  `* Re: A Shortage of Sandclamky
|||  | |    |   ||   +* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | |    |   ||   |`- Re: A Shortage of Sandclamky
|||  | |    |   ||   `* Re: A Shortage of SandThomas Koenig
|||  | |    |   ||    +* Re: A Shortage of Sandclamky
|||  | |    |   ||    |`* Re: A Shortage of SandThomas Koenig
|||  | |    |   ||    | +- Re: A Shortage of Sandclamky
|||  | |    |   ||    | `* Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | |    |   ||    |  `* Re: A Shortage of SandAnton Ertl
|||  | |    |   ||    |   `- Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | |    |   ||    `- Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|||  | |    |   |+* Re: A Shortage of SandTerje Mathisen
|||  | |    |   ||`- Re: A Shortage of SandDavid Brown
|||  | |    |   |+- Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
|||  | |    |   |`- Re: A Shortage of SandBill Findlay
|||  | |    |   +* Re: A Shortage of Sandantispam
|||  | |    |   |`- Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
|||  | |    |   `- Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
|||  | |    `* Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
|||  | |     `* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
|||  | |      `* Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|||  | |       `* [OFFTOPIC] Voting systems (was: A Shortage of Sand)Stefan Monnier
|||  | |        `* Re: [OFFTOPIC] Voting systems (was: A Shortage of Sand)Thomas Koenig
|||  | |         `- Re: [OFFTOPIC] Voting systemsTerje Mathisen
|||  | +* Re: A Shortage of SandStefan Monnier
|||  | +- Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc
|||  | +- Re: A Shortage of SandTim Rentsch
|||  | `- Re: A Shortage of SandBranimir Maksimovic
|||  `* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
||`* Re: A Shortage of SandMitchAlsup
|+* Re: A Shortage of SandStephen Fuld
|`* Re: A Shortage of SandTerje Mathisen
`- Re: A Shortage of SandQuadibloc

Pages:1234567891011
Re: A Shortage of Sand

<9652f9b1-2e56-46a6-b2f2-c61bef27631cn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21584&group=comp.arch#21584

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:170c:: with SMTP id h12mr14943912qtk.46.1635121634775;
Sun, 24 Oct 2021 17:27:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:23a6:: with SMTP id m6mr10782821ots.38.1635121634582;
Sun, 24 Oct 2021 17:27:14 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 17:27:14 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <sl4q64$vm7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2600:1700:291:29f0:99a6:f6a3:359a:fc2b;
posting-account=H_G_JQkAAADS6onOMb-dqvUozKse7mcM
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2600:1700:291:29f0:99a6:f6a3:359a:fc2b
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com> <1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me> <sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me>
<skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me> <skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<a45524ae-843f-4f6f-b111-2bab0bb2fbaan@googlegroups.com> <sl4jr9$c5t$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<07615361-80d3-4242-b385-3923f35d36fen@googlegroups.com> <sl4q64$vm7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <9652f9b1-2e56-46a6-b2f2-c61bef27631cn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
From: MitchAl...@aol.com (MitchAlsup)
Injection-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 00:27:14 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 14
 by: MitchAlsup - Mon, 25 Oct 2021 00:27 UTC

From etechnog::

Under Voltage Effect On Induction Motor(AC Motor)

An induction motor or AC motor works in a completely different principles than a DC Motor. An induction motor works on the principle of electromagnetic induction or same as a transformer or we can say induction motor is a rotating transformer whose primary winding static and secondary winding rotating part. Also, note that the secondary winding or rotor of the induction motor always closed circuited. So, same as the transformer principle, when voltage low current will be high, and when voltage high current will be low.

So, when the under-voltage fault occurs, the induction motor will draw a very high current, and due to the flow of high current the coils will be overheated and it will be burned.

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<b3b203cc-5b5d-4c66-aa70-4a12eb994fe5n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21585&group=comp.arch#21585

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
X-Received: by 2002:a37:ae84:: with SMTP id x126mr11033833qke.334.1635121773349;
Sun, 24 Oct 2021 17:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1286:: with SMTP id a6mr16687657oiw.51.1635121773129;
Sun, 24 Oct 2021 17:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 17:29:32 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9652f9b1-2e56-46a6-b2f2-c61bef27631cn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2600:1700:291:29f0:99a6:f6a3:359a:fc2b;
posting-account=H_G_JQkAAADS6onOMb-dqvUozKse7mcM
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2600:1700:291:29f0:99a6:f6a3:359a:fc2b
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com> <1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me> <sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me>
<skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me> <skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<a45524ae-843f-4f6f-b111-2bab0bb2fbaan@googlegroups.com> <sl4jr9$c5t$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<07615361-80d3-4242-b385-3923f35d36fen@googlegroups.com> <sl4q64$vm7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<9652f9b1-2e56-46a6-b2f2-c61bef27631cn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <b3b203cc-5b5d-4c66-aa70-4a12eb994fe5n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
From: MitchAl...@aol.com (MitchAlsup)
Injection-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 00:29:33 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 7
 by: MitchAlsup - Mon, 25 Oct 2021 00:29 UTC

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 7:27:15 PM UTC-5, MitchAlsup wrote:

So, if you have 1 induction motor in a big circuit, not much happens.

When you have 50% of the capacity of the transmission line running
induction motors, the entire system can collapse. There are plenty of
industries where entire plants consume 50%+ of their power using
induction motors (invariably 3-phase).

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<sl61hi$nj9$1@z-news.wcss.wroc.pl>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21595&group=comp.arch#21595

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!newsfeed.neostrada.pl!unt-exc-02.news.neostrada.pl!newsfeed.pionier.net.pl!pwr.wroc.pl!news.wcss.wroc.pl!not-for-mail
From: antis...@math.uni.wroc.pl
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 10:39:46 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Politechnika Wroclawska
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <sl61hi$nj9$1@z-news.wcss.wroc.pl>
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me> <sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me> <skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me> <skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me> <skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org> <a45524ae-843f-4f6f-b111-2bab0bb2fbaan@googlegroups.com> <sl4jr9$c5t$1@gioia.aioe.org> <07615361-80d3-4242-b385-3923f35d36fen@googlegroups.com> <sl4q64$vm7$1@gioia.aioe.org> <9652f9b1-2e56-46a6-b2f2-c61bef27631cn@googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hera.math.uni.wroc.pl
X-Trace: z-news.wcss.wroc.pl 1635158386 24169 156.17.86.1 (25 Oct 2021 10:39:46 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@news.pwr.wroc.pl
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 10:39:46 +0000 (UTC)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:RZSD1eCuTlN1VBTPg19IHvbas+Y=
User-Agent: tin/2.4.3-20181224 ("Glen Mhor") (UNIX) (Linux/4.19.0-10-amd64 (x86_64))
X-Received-Bytes: 3900
 by: antis...@math.uni.wroc.pl - Mon, 25 Oct 2021 10:39 UTC

MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> wrote:
> From etechnog::
>
> Under Voltage Effect On Induction Motor(AC Motor)
>
> An induction motor or AC motor works in a completely different principles than a DC Motor. An induction motor works on the principle of electromagnetic induction or same as a transformer or we can say induction motor is a rotating transformer whose primary winding static and secondary winding rotating part. Also, note that the secondary winding or rotor of the induction motor always closed circuited. So, same as the transformer principle, when voltage low current will be high, and when voltage high current will be low.
>
> So, when the under-voltage fault occurs, the induction motor will draw a very high current, and due to the flow of high current the coils will be overheated and it will be burned.

This is oversimplified explanation, up to point of being incorrect.
Induction motor works fine on lower voltage, but the catch is that
it can then only deliver reduced power, in first approximation
available power is proportional to voltage. If motor runs close
to its nomial power, then lowering voltage means that it will
not be able to deliver expected power. Mechanical load normally
is fixed at fixed rpm, so motor needs to lower its rpm, that
is increase slipage. Slipage is responsible for growth in current.

So, the effect will appear, but reason is different. And there
is important side condition: motor must be used close to its
nominal power. If load is say 1/3 of nomial power and voltage
is normal, then motor will run at somewhat reduced current
("real" part is approximately 1/3, but there is "imaginary"
(inductive) part that complicates matter). If voltage
drops to half then motor will increase "real" current to
2/3 nomial in order to keep almost constant power. Inductive
part of current will change in complex way: there will be
decrease due to lower voltage and increase due to increased
slipage. But in well designed motor inductive part will
not grow too much as long as motor load is within design
range (note: lowered for lower voltage).

So lightly loaded induction motor will run fine on lowerd
voltage. OTOH in first order approximation power draw
is constant, which is bad for overloaded power grid.

Concerning overheating motors: induction motors have
current limiting so normally I would expect this to
trip before motor is destroyed. OTOH this limiting
is too slow to have influence on stablility of power
grid.

--
Waldek Hebisch

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21607&group=comp.arch#21607

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: cr88...@gmail.com (BGB)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 14:03:24 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 141
Message-ID: <sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me>
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com>
<1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me>
<sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me> <skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me>
<skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:03:30 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="06daac6357abab6d112471fc1442c24a";
logging-data="10175"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18J42fE5nY9V0NOPh+X6E7T"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.2.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:kvwGtWyEpe7g6gNgXS6h8alSzkU=
In-Reply-To: <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: BGB - Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:03 UTC

On 10/24/2021 7:47 AM, chris wrote:
> On 10/20/21 19:42, BGB wrote:
>
>> Except for cost cutting.
>>
>>
>> Say they use a motor which needs to be run on the edge of burning up
>> just to be able to accelerate within a reasonable time-frame; and safer
>> thermal margins would eat too much into the user-experienced performance
>> characteristics (say, for example, they tune things such that the motor
>> operates up to 200C, with the coating on the windings decomposing at
>> 250C; but say the internal temperature of the windings during
>> acceleration reaches 250C before it hits 200C on the sensor, ...).
>>
>
> Motors used for such applications have power limiting built in to the
> controller electronics, which includes temperature sensing to limit
> input power to a safe level.
>

Normally, yes, but imagine we have a setting where:
Cruising requires ~ 10-15A continuous;
Motor can handle 20A continuous.

All is good, limit current to 20A, right?...

But, say, the car is stopped, and the user floors it, but the car has a
0 to 60 time of around 1 minute. This would take an unacceptable time to
accelerate.

So, instead of limiting current to 20A, they limit it to 45A, and
suddenly the car can now deliver a 0 to 60 time of around 15 seconds,
much more reasonable...

If we assume that this only happens for at most 15 to 20 seconds,
everything is fine. The extra heat generated in the coils can be handled
by the active oil cooling and radiator, ...

But, say we have a different scenario:
The same car is driving on the freeway against a headwind (traveling at
75mph / 120kph), so the motor has been pulling ~ 25-30A to maintain its
speed, and is already near the 200C limit (but hasn't hit this limit yet).

Now, say, the driver wants to pass around a semi (needs to it ~ 90-100
mph / 144-160kph), so "floors it", we are now back up to the 45A.

But, in this case, the coils heat up rapidly, and then internally exceed
the 250C breakdown temperature of the enameling before the temperature
sensor hits 200C, well, now it has burnt the coils...

The solution, is granted, to use a bigger and more powerful motor, but
this has the obvious drawback of increasing the per-unit cost of
manufacturing the vehicle.

Most current EVs use motors that are more than powerful enough, but most
current EVs are also a lot more expensive than comparable gas-powered cars.

Basically, similar reasons to why many products tend to skimp out on
things like wire gauge (or building products with deliberately
mislabeled wire gauges, ...).

>>
>> If it is a common failure mode for things like blenders and vacuum
>> cleaners, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch for EVs if the
>> companies start trying to cut costs by using cheaper parts.
>>
>
> Blenders and cleaners use series wound motors typically, with windings
> for the outer field and the rotating armature. They are cheap and have
> the correct torque speed characteristics. Neither they,  nor single
> or three phase induction motors would burn out on reduced voltage. Just
> the the torque would be reduced.
>

Household vacuum cleaners have a weak point, namely the internal
mechanisms getting clogged with hair. If there is too much load on the
motor, it spins slowly or stalls, then one gets a burnt motor. Similar
with blenders, power tools, ...

Many will include a "thermal fuse", but this is typically a one-time
thing (trip it, and the product is dead, typically needing to be
replaced). Similar goes for coffee pots (though, the thermal fuse
gradually gives out over time, meaning the coffee pot's lifespan is
effectively running on a timer).

However, note that reasoning about motor behavior under reduced voltage
is not so easy, as these are inductive loads (and may behave very
differently from what might expect from something like a resistor).

The motor may behave differently from an idealized model if the motor is
under load.

It depends on the power-curve, where the motor may have an "efficiency
point" (input power and output load are well matched). At higher loads,
RPM drops, and current draw increases significantly. At lower loads, RPM
increases, current drops (due to more back-EMF).

But, say, voltage drops, load stays the same; the efficiency point moves
so that now we are operating closer to the stalling torque of the motor;
back-EMF drops, current increases.

> In general, batteries are impractical for grid scale energy storage,
> because the sheer volume, weight and cost involved. Also, short design
> life when used in cycling mode. Five minute of simple arithmetic
> would tell you that...
>

Yet this is what most people are trying to do here.

But, weight and volume are not normally the limiting factors for grid
storage; usually it is more about cost per kWh.

But, this more is why LiON is a crappy option for the power grid, its
properties don't match well with what would make sense for grid-level
storage.

What is lacking, is a "cheap" chemistry.

This is partly why chemistries involving Sodium and Iron as the main
active components (common and cheap) make more sense relative to Lithium
and Cobalt (less common / expensive).

So, in premise, Sodium Iron-Ferrocyanide chemistry could make sense as a
cost-effective alternative to LiON (and likely also NiMH, which have the
drawback of needing a lot of nickel, which is also expensive).

Chemistries based around Fe-O reactions are also promising (eg, Iron-Air).

....

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<sl7b34$1f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21611&group=comp.arch#21611

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!jazQyxryRFiI4FEZ51SAvA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: chris-no...@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:28:52 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sl7b34$1f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com> <3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com> <1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com> <sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me> <sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me> <skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me> <skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me> <skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="48435"; posting-host="jazQyxryRFiI4FEZ51SAvA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; SunOS sun4u; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: chris - Mon, 25 Oct 2021 22:28 UTC

On 10/25/21 20:03, BGB wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 7:47 AM, chris wrote:
>> On 10/20/21 19:42, BGB wrote:
>>
>>> Except for cost cutting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Say they use a motor which needs to be run on the edge of burning up
>>> just to be able to accelerate within a reasonable time-frame; and safer
>>> thermal margins would eat too much into the user-experienced performance
>>> characteristics (say, for example, they tune things such that the motor
>>> operates up to 200C, with the coating on the windings decomposing at
>>> 250C; but say the internal temperature of the windings during
>>> acceleration reaches 250C before it hits 200C on the sensor, ...).
>>>
>>
>> Motors used for such applications have power limiting built in to the
>> controller electronics, which includes temperature sensing to limit
>> input power to a safe level.
>>
>
> Normally, yes, but imagine we have a setting where:
> Cruising requires ~ 10-15A continuous;
> Motor can handle 20A continuous.
>
> All is good, limit current to 20A, right?...
>
> But, say, the car is stopped, and the user floors it, but the car has a
> 0 to 60 time of around 1 minute. This would take an unacceptable time to
> accelerate.
>
>
> So, instead of limiting current to 20A, they limit it to 45A, and
> suddenly the car can now deliver a 0 to 60 time of around 15 seconds,
> much more reasonable...
>
> If we assume that this only happens for at most 15 to 20 seconds,
> everything is fine. The extra heat generated in the coils can be handled
> by the active oil cooling and radiator, ...
>
>
> But, say we have a different scenario:
> The same car is driving on the freeway against a headwind (traveling at
> 75mph / 120kph), so the motor has been pulling ~ 25-30A to maintain its
> speed, and is already near the 200C limit (but hasn't hit this limit yet).
>
> Now, say, the driver wants to pass around a semi (needs to it ~ 90-100
> mph / 144-160kph), so "floors it", we are now back up to the 45A.
>
>
> But, in this case, the coils heat up rapidly, and then internally exceed
> the 250C breakdown temperature of the enameling before the temperature
> sensor hits 200C, well, now it has burnt the coils...
>
>
>
> The solution, is granted, to use a bigger and more powerful motor, but
> this has the obvious drawback of increasing the per-unit cost of
> manufacturing the vehicle.
>
> Most current EVs use motors that are more than powerful enough, but most
> current EVs are also a lot more expensive than comparable gas-powered cars.
>
>
> Basically, similar reasons to why many products tend to skimp out on
> things like wire gauge (or building products with deliberately
> mislabeled wire gauges, ...).
>
>
>>>
>>> If it is a common failure mode for things like blenders and vacuum
>>> cleaners, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch for EVs if the
>>> companies start trying to cut costs by using cheaper parts.
>>>

Most consumer electronics has a defined design life, but some are
actually very well designed, considering the end user price. Nearly
all low end blending and food processing devices use series wound
brush motors, which have the required torque / speed
characteristics, are low cost and are tolerant of short term
overload, though they will burn out if regularly abused. Life is
usually limited by brush wear, but it's not a difficult to replace
them and to clean up the commutator. It does help to have a home
lathe to do the latter, though an electric drill clamped in a
vice works with a little care. We try to extend the life of all
such things here, as it saves cash and reduces waste.
Supermarket kettles are pretty good, cheap and cheerful and
come with years warranty, so you know they will have been
thrashed to bits to ensure they will last > 1 year. Current
one here has lasted over 4 years, so good design and good value.

One of the reasons I chose a Magimix food processer over 30 years
ago was because it had a stonking great induction motor, 5-10 Kgm,
effectively burn out proof. Quite a bit more expensive new, but
it's still in regular use, though not quite as flexible as some
of the later models. Only real fault thus far was clean and lube
and replace an internal microswitch.

In the end, all engineering design is a devil's compromise: Cost,
reliability, performance, pick any two :-). Trouble is, many
don't have the engineering background to make the right choices
and get sold substandard kit which may also be expensive. Fashion
has a lot to answer for.

Not much about comp.arch, sorry, but modern electronics is
amazingly reliable when considering just how complex something
like a server or desktop is. Uptimes of years for the software
alone and very few hardware failures...

Chris

>>
>> Blenders and cleaners use series wound motors typically, with windings
>> for the outer field and the rotating armature. They are cheap and have
>> the correct torque speed characteristics. Neither they, nor single
>> or three phase induction motors would burn out on reduced voltage. Just
>> the the torque would be reduced.
>>
>
> Household vacuum cleaners have a weak point, namely the internal
> mechanisms getting clogged with hair. If there is too much load on the
> motor, it spins slowly or stalls, then one gets a burnt motor. Similar
> with blenders, power tools, ...
>
> Many will include a "thermal fuse", but this is typically a one-time
> thing (trip it, and the product is dead, typically needing to be
> replaced). Similar goes for coffee pots (though, the thermal fuse
> gradually gives out over time, meaning the coffee pot's lifespan is
> effectively running on a timer).
>
>
> However, note that reasoning about motor behavior under reduced voltage
> is not so easy, as these are inductive loads (and may behave very
> differently from what might expect from something like a resistor).
>
>
> The motor may behave differently from an idealized model if the motor is
> under load.
>
> It depends on the power-curve, where the motor may have an "efficiency
> point" (input power and output load are well matched). At higher loads,
> RPM drops, and current draw increases significantly. At lower loads, RPM
> increases, current drops (due to more back-EMF).
>
> But, say, voltage drops, load stays the same; the efficiency point moves
> so that now we are operating closer to the stalling torque of the motor;
> back-EMF drops, current increases.
>
>
>> In general, batteries are impractical for grid scale energy storage,
>> because the sheer volume, weight and cost involved. Also, short design
>> life when used in cycling mode. Five minute of simple arithmetic
>> would tell you that...
>>
>
> Yet this is what most people are trying to do here.
>
> But, weight and volume are not normally the limiting factors for grid
> storage; usually it is more about cost per kWh.
>
> But, this more is why LiON is a crappy option for the power grid, its
> properties don't match well with what would make sense for grid-level
> storage.
>
> What is lacking, is a "cheap" chemistry.
>
>
> This is partly why chemistries involving Sodium and Iron as the main
> active components (common and cheap) make more sense relative to Lithium
> and Cobalt (less common / expensive).
>
>
> So, in premise, Sodium Iron-Ferrocyanide chemistry could make sense as a
> cost-effective alternative to LiON (and likely also NiMH, which have the
> drawback of needing a lot of nickel, which is also expensive).
>
> Chemistries based around Fe-O reactions are also promising (eg, Iron-Air).
>
> ...

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<sl7eu5$pp1$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21612&group=comp.arch#21612

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!jazQyxryRFiI4FEZ51SAvA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: chris-no...@tridac.net (chris)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 00:34:29 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sl7eu5$pp1$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com> <3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com> <1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com> <sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me> <sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me> <skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me> <skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me> <skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org> <a45524ae-843f-4f6f-b111-2bab0bb2fbaan@googlegroups.com> <sl4jr9$c5t$1@gioia.aioe.org> <07615361-80d3-4242-b385-3923f35d36fen@googlegroups.com> <sl4q64$vm7$1@gioia.aioe.org> <9652f9b1-2e56-46a6-b2f2-c61bef27631cn@googlegroups.com> <b3b203cc-5b5d-4c66-aa70-4a12eb994fe5n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="26401"; posting-host="jazQyxryRFiI4FEZ51SAvA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; SunOS sun4u; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: chris - Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:34 UTC

On 10/25/21 01:29, MitchAlsup wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 7:27:15 PM UTC-5, MitchAlsup wrote:
>
> So, if you have 1 induction motor in a big circuit, not much happens.
>
> When you have 50% of the capacity of the transmission line running
> induction motors, the entire system can collapse. There are plenty of
> industries where entire plants consume 50%+ of their power using
> induction motors (invariably 3-phase).

The problem with any inductive load is the poor power factor,
which results in greater line current for the same power in watts.
Normal domestic wattmeters are pretty tolerant of poor power
factor and charges are based on watt hours measured, not KVAr.
Industrial users are not so lucky. They are penalised for
poor power factor, since larger generators and heavier gauge wire
are needed to supply the out of phase current.

One of the problems with transmission lines is that they need to
be properly terminated. Even at 50 or 60Hz, it's possible to get
standing waves over hundreds of miles of grid, which can make
the system unstable if the power sources are not "stiff" enough.
Was much easier in the old days, where most generators were large
rotating machines with considerable inertia. Dozens of them all in
sync, thousands of tons of rotating machinery and quite tolerant
of step function changes in load. Not so simple with wind turbines,
which have far less rotational inertia. That is, much less flywheel
effect. That's why the grid will always need traditional
power stations for grid stability.

Wind is doing quite well here in the uk at present, but is still
a very unstable energy source, useless for base load alone. That
makes life more difficult for the grid operators...

Chris

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<sl86fc$1pi9$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21615&group=comp.arch#21615

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!ppYixYMWAWh/woI8emJOIQ.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: terje.ma...@tmsw.no (Terje Mathisen)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 08:16:11 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sl86fc$1pi9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com>
<1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me>
<sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me> <skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me>
<skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me> <sl7b34$1f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="58953"; posting-host="ppYixYMWAWh/woI8emJOIQ.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
Firefox/60.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.9.1
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Terje Mathisen - Tue, 26 Oct 2021 06:16 UTC

chris wrote:
> In the end, all engineering design is a devil's compromise: Cost,
> reliability, performance, pick any two :-). Trouble is, many
> don't have the engineering background to make the right choices
> and get sold substandard kit which may also be expensive. Fashion
> has a lot to answer for.
>
> Not much about comp.arch, sorry, but modern electronics is
> amazingly reliable when considering just how complex something
> like a server or desktop is. Uptimes of years for the software
> alone and very few hardware failures...

I like to believe that _some_ of that longevity is due to Norway (and
presumably some larger (more important) countries with similar rules and
regulations):

All non-moving parts have an implied warranty here of at least 5 years,
while those that do move around have at least 2 years.

This was tested all the way to our Supreme Court in a case of a TV
remote control, and the decision was as above: I.e. the buttons are
allowed to wear out, but not the internal electronics.

What it means is that lots of stuff which is sold world-wide is a bit
more expensive here, partly due to the added cost of having to handle
more warranty repair/replacement, but as you write, most of it just works.

I am still using daily my original Microsoft Surface 3 Pro, which came
out in 2014 (mine is probably from spring 2015), and this one has been
abused quite a bit, traveling with me everywhere and being used for
orienteering mapping and event timing, along with the normal
web/mail/video etc.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<87bl3cqoi5.fsf@hotmail.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21617&group=comp.arch#21617

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!xcrumNapWYKcczN4Ruh1Kw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: cla...@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 09:38:42 +0300
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <87bl3cqoi5.fsf@hotmail.com>
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com>
<1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me>
<sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me> <skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me>
<skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me> <sl7b34$1f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl86fc$1pi9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="9092"; posting-host="xcrumNapWYKcczN4Ruh1Kw.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux)
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Cancel-Lock: sha1:CRbXFF6rEKISMTG3To9qaVm3Qpg=
 by: cla...@hotmail.com - Tue, 26 Oct 2021 06:38 UTC

Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> writes:

> chris wrote:
>> In the end, all engineering design is a devil's compromise: Cost,
>> reliability, performance, pick any two :-). Trouble is, many
>> don't have the engineering background to make the right choices
>> and get sold substandard kit which may also be expensive. Fashion
>> has a lot to answer for.

[..]

>
> I am still using daily my original Microsoft Surface 3 Pro, which came
> out in 2014 (mine is probably from spring 2015), and this one has been
> abused quite a bit, traveling with me everywhere and being used for
> orienteering mapping and event timing, along with the normal
> web/mail/video etc.

What about software? Asking because with Apple sometimes it feels like
they are actively sabotaging their own hardware with their software
choices. Granted - i couldn't care less in _the past_ - PPC/X86[_64]
that I had purchased _for myself_ (or was given as a gift) was always
running linux anyway, but M1 and Apple's new graphics hardware make it
challenging at this point in time.

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<sl8auv$31j$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21622&group=comp.arch#21622

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: bak...@iitbombay.org (Bakul Shah)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 00:32:45 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <sl8auv$31j$1@dont-email.me>
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com>
<1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me>
<sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me> <skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me>
<skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me> <sl7b34$1f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl86fc$1pi9$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87bl3cqoi5.fsf@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:32:47 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="b8b74792842f11378a5511452713a3e1";
logging-data="3123"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18isB7UNwLTEFlHi0AywREu"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:60.0)
Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.9.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:HBmOxFG7cnrGRLGCSCHGx4dh0oQ=
In-Reply-To: <87bl3cqoi5.fsf@hotmail.com>
 by: Bakul Shah - Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:32 UTC

clamky@hotmail.com wrote:
> Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> writes:
>
>> chris wrote:
>>> In the end, all engineering design is a devil's compromise: Cost,
>>> reliability, performance, pick any two :-). Trouble is, many
>>> don't have the engineering background to make the right choices
>>> and get sold substandard kit which may also be expensive. Fashion
>>> has a lot to answer for.
>
> [..]
>
>>
>> I am still using daily my original Microsoft Surface 3 Pro, which came
>> out in 2014 (mine is probably from spring 2015), and this one has been
>> abused quite a bit, traveling with me everywhere and being used for
>> orienteering mapping and event timing, along with the normal
>> web/mail/video etc.
>
> What about software? Asking because with Apple sometimes it feels like
> they are actively sabotaging their own hardware with their software
> choices. Granted - i couldn't care less in _the past_ - PPC/X86[_64]
> that I had purchased _for myself_ (or was given as a gift) was always
> running linux anyway, but M1 and Apple's new graphics hardware make it
> challenging at this point in time.
>

I installed MacOS Monterey (the latest) on an early 2015 Macbook Pro
and the performance is quite acceptable. Compiles of many open source
programs on it are about the same speed as on a Ryzen 2700x machine
that I put together in 2018 (& running FreeBSD). On the MBP I normally
have 2-3 browsers running (with 100-200 open tabs), Mail, Preview (with
a dozen or so PDF documents), iterm, and various other things. All on
a 8GB machine. But most likely the next OS release or the one after
will not support this model.
proba

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<46d72572-3a53-4a05-b6e4-8cc171e3606an@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21623&group=comp.arch#21623

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:a8c:: with SMTP id ev12mr13764634qvb.48.1635243412624;
Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:16:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:764c:: with SMTP id o12mr19155104otl.129.1635243412381;
Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:16:52 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:16:52 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <sl86fc$1pi9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=199.203.251.52; posting-account=ow8VOgoAAAAfiGNvoH__Y4ADRwQF1hZW
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.203.251.52
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com> <1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me> <sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me>
<skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me> <skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me> <sl7b34$1f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sl86fc$1pi9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <46d72572-3a53-4a05-b6e4-8cc171e3606an@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
From: already5...@yahoo.com (Michael S)
Injection-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:16:52 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 43
 by: Michael S - Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:16 UTC

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 9:16:15 AM UTC+3, Terje Mathisen wrote:
> chris wrote:
> > In the end, all engineering design is a devil's compromise: Cost,
> > reliability, performance, pick any two :-). Trouble is, many
> > don't have the engineering background to make the right choices
> > and get sold substandard kit which may also be expensive. Fashion
> > has a lot to answer for.
> >
> > Not much about comp.arch, sorry, but modern electronics is
> > amazingly reliable when considering just how complex something
> > like a server or desktop is. Uptimes of years for the software
> > alone and very few hardware failures...
> I like to believe that _some_ of that longevity is due to Norway (and
> presumably some larger (more important) countries with similar rules and
> regulations):
>
> All non-moving parts have an implied warranty here of at least 5 years,
> while those that do move around have at least 2 years.
>
> This was tested all the way to our Supreme Court in a case of a TV
> remote control, and the decision was as above: I.e. the buttons are
> allowed to wear out, but not the internal electronics.
>
> What it means is that lots of stuff which is sold world-wide is a bit
> more expensive here, partly due to the added cost of having to handle
> more warranty repair/replacement, but as you write, most of it just works.
>
> I am still using daily my original Microsoft Surface 3 Pro, which came
> out in 2014 (mine is probably from spring 2015), and this one has been
> abused quite a bit, traveling with me everywhere and being used for
> orienteering mapping and event timing, along with the normal
> web/mail/video etc.
> Terje
>
>
> --
> - <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
> "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Is touch screen still reactive at any point?
How capacity of buttery compares to what it was anew?

Those are two defects that made my circa-2013 tablet unusable more than a year ago.
The first problem, esp. poor sensitivity near the edges of display, much more critical than the second.

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<sl8rl3$1ira$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21629&group=comp.arch#21629

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!ppYixYMWAWh/woI8emJOIQ.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: terje.ma...@tmsw.no (Terje Mathisen)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:17:38 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sl8rl3$1ira$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com>
<1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me>
<sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me> <skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me>
<skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me> <sl7b34$1f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl86fc$1pi9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<46d72572-3a53-4a05-b6e4-8cc171e3606an@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="52074"; posting-host="ppYixYMWAWh/woI8emJOIQ.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
Firefox/60.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.9.1
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Terje Mathisen - Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:17 UTC

Michael S wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 9:16:15 AM UTC+3, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>> I am still using daily my original Microsoft Surface 3 Pro, which came
>> out in 2014 (mine is probably from spring 2015), and this one has been
>> abused quite a bit, traveling with me everywhere and being used for
>> orienteering mapping and event timing, along with the normal
>> web/mail/video etc.
>
> Is touch screen still reactive at any point?
> How capacity of buttery compares to what it was anew?
>
> Those are two defects that made my circa-2013 tablet unusable more than a year ago.
> The first problem, esp. poor sensitivity near the edges of display, much more critical than the second.
>
The machine itself has been rock solid, it is only the keyboard/touchpad
which is wearing out, but that can of course be replaced cheaply &
easily (if my model is still available?).

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<b2c84101-a81e-424f-b361-ec3c3131b7a7n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21639&group=comp.arch#21639

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
X-Received: by 2002:a0c:eace:: with SMTP id y14mr3622049qvp.39.1635260611926;
Tue, 26 Oct 2021 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:60cf:: with SMTP id b15mr20055101otk.282.1635260609772;
Tue, 26 Oct 2021 08:03:29 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 08:03:29 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <sl8rl3$1ira$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=199.203.251.52; posting-account=ow8VOgoAAAAfiGNvoH__Y4ADRwQF1hZW
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.203.251.52
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com> <1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me> <sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me>
<skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me> <skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me> <sl7b34$1f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl86fc$1pi9$1@gioia.aioe.org> <46d72572-3a53-4a05-b6e4-8cc171e3606an@googlegroups.com>
<sl8rl3$1ira$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <b2c84101-a81e-424f-b361-ec3c3131b7a7n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
From: already5...@yahoo.com (Michael S)
Injection-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:03:31 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 38
 by: Michael S - Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:03 UTC

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 3:17:42 PM UTC+3, Terje Mathisen wrote:
> Michael S wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 9:16:15 AM UTC+3, Terje Mathisen wrote:
> >> I am still using daily my original Microsoft Surface 3 Pro, which came
> >> out in 2014 (mine is probably from spring 2015), and this one has been
> >> abused quite a bit, traveling with me everywhere and being used for
> >> orienteering mapping and event timing, along with the normal
> >> web/mail/video etc.
> >
> > Is touch screen still reactive at any point?
> > How capacity of buttery compares to what it was anew?
> >
> > Those are two defects that made my circa-2013 tablet unusable more than a year ago.
> > The first problem, esp. poor sensitivity near the edges of display, much more critical than the second.
> >
> The machine itself has been rock solid, it is only the keyboard/touchpad
> which is wearing out, but that can of course be replaced cheaply &
> easily (if my model is still available?).
> Terje
>
>
> --
> - <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
> "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Supposedly, if the main use case is laptop rather than tablet then touch functionality
of the screen is not exercised as heavily as in "real" tablets or in phones.
May be, it helps longevity.
Or, may be, not. Just two days ago I encountered an old phone that was very lightly used
for the last couple of years. Despite that it was showing exactly the same problems
with deteriorating touch.

By the way, how Norwegian low works in this case? Is touch screen considered "moving part" or "electronics" ?

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<sl9877$1ust$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21643&group=comp.arch#21643

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!ppYixYMWAWh/woI8emJOIQ.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: terje.ma...@tmsw.no (Terje Mathisen)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:52:06 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sl9877$1ust$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
<3cad45f6-51e7-43f2-aa8b-29731119b292n@googlegroups.com>
<1e771395-bf24-4d74-a567-ac08542dd639n@googlegroups.com>
<sjp8i2$plk$1@dont-email.me> <sjpp6b$guq$1@dont-email.me>
<sjpsle$9pl$1@dont-email.me> <skn7va$of5$1@dont-email.me>
<skncab$o2h$1@dont-email.me> <skofnt$7mf$1@dont-email.me>
<skpnv5$rgi$1@dont-email.me> <sl3klm$d17$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl6v21$9tv$1@dont-email.me> <sl7b34$1f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<sl86fc$1pi9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<46d72572-3a53-4a05-b6e4-8cc171e3606an@googlegroups.com>
<sl8rl3$1ira$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<b2c84101-a81e-424f-b361-ec3c3131b7a7n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="64413"; posting-host="ppYixYMWAWh/woI8emJOIQ.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
Firefox/60.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.9.1
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: Terje Mathisen - Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:52 UTC

Michael S wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 3:17:42 PM UTC+3, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>> Michael S wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 9:16:15 AM UTC+3, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>>>> I am still using daily my original Microsoft Surface 3 Pro, which came
>>>> out in 2014 (mine is probably from spring 2015), and this one has been
>>>> abused quite a bit, traveling with me everywhere and being used for
>>>> orienteering mapping and event timing, along with the normal
>>>> web/mail/video etc.
>>>
>>> Is touch screen still reactive at any point?
>>> How capacity of buttery compares to what it was anew?
>>>
>>> Those are two defects that made my circa-2013 tablet unusable more than a year ago.
>>> The first problem, esp. poor sensitivity near the edges of display, much more critical than the second.
>>>
>> The machine itself has been rock solid, it is only the keyboard/touchpad
>> which is wearing out, but that can of course be replaced cheaply &
>> easily (if my model is still available?).
>> Terje
>>
>>
>> --
>> - <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
>> "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
>
>
> Supposedly, if the main use case is laptop rather than tablet then touch functionality
> of the screen is not exercised as heavily as in "real" tablets or in phones.
> May be, it helps longevity.
> Or, may be, not. Just two days ago I encountered an old phone that was very lightly used
> for the last couple of years. Despite that it was showing exactly the same problems
> with deteriorating touch.
>
> By the way, how Norwegian low works in this case? Is touch screen considered "moving part" or "electronics" ?

A touch screen has no moving parts, so it has to last at least 5 years.

This means that the median lifetime probably has to be around 10 years
in order to limit warranty cases to a very low percentage, right?

Cell phones get around this "problem" by having a non-replaceable
battery which does wear out in a few years, and batteries have been
recognized as being subject to "wear & tear" even though there's no
moving parts.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Re: A Shortage of Sand

<c711c0ca-b2d0-4181-a9a9-64442c80f029n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=21808&group=comp.arch#21808

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.arch
X-Received: by 2002:a37:9a90:: with SMTP id c138mr23465789qke.442.1635777285302;
Mon, 01 Nov 2021 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:120e:: with SMTP id a14mr24778170oil.122.1635777285068;
Mon, 01 Nov 2021 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:56a:fa3a:e00:9165:6567:4eb:6da3;
posting-account=1nOeKQkAAABD2jxp4Pzmx9Hx5g9miO8y
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:56a:fa3a:e00:9165:6567:4eb:6da3
References: <9fd2de2f-b130-480f-8640-1d3a54c367adn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <c711c0ca-b2d0-4181-a9a9-64442c80f029n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: A Shortage of Sand
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
Injection-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 14:34:45 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 16
 by: Quadibloc - Mon, 1 Nov 2021 14:34 UTC

On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 1:49:07 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> So China is a country that can put the world's economy in turmoil
> by unintentionally monopolizing the world's most plentiful and
> un-monopolizable resources! My, what would we face if they ever
> got upset with us?

Also, China has stopped the export of phosphates. But here this
is not a problem; Morocco is able to take up the slack. The United
States, on the other hand, has put tariffs on Moroccan phosphates,
so as to encourage the development of its own resources.

Morocco has the overwhelming majority of the world's reserves of
this vital substance for fertilizer, and so it may become an economic
superpower...

John Savard

Pages:1234567891011
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor