Hi

I have booted up my simh VAX instances for the first time for years and
I find that the hobbyist licences I had for these had expired ages ago.

HP/Montager doesn't do them any more and VSI only do Alpha or x64.
Are there any other ways I can obtain hobbyist licences?

Many thanks,
Alex
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Den 2022-04-11 kl. 16:24, skrev Single Stage to Orbit:
> Hi
>
> I have booted up my simh VAX instances for the first time for years and
> I find that the hobbyist licences I had for these had expired ages ago.
>
> HP/Montager doesn't do them any more and VSI only do Alpha or x64.
> Are there any other ways I can obtain hobbyist licences?
>
> Many thanks,
> Alex

I think that the simple answer is, no.

Jan-Erik S??derholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
> Den 2022-04-11 kl. 16:24, skrev Single Stage to Orbit:
>> Hi
>>
>> I have booted up my simh VAX instances for the first time for years and
>> I find that the hobbyist licences I had for these had expired ages ago.
>>
>> HP/Montager doesn't do them any more and VSI only do Alpha or x64.
>> Are there any other ways I can obtain hobbyist licences?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> Alex
>
> I think that the simple answer is, no.

Ages ago, back when hobbyist licenses were still easy to get for the
asking, I occasionally forgot to get a new one until after the old
one expired. For the few intrevening days before my new one arrived,
I found that set date back before the expiration date worked fine.
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

On 11/04/2022 17:24, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have booted up my simh VAX instances for the first time for years and
> I find that the hobbyist licences I had for these had expired ages ago.
>
> HP/Montager doesn't do them any more and VSI only do Alpha or x64.
> Are there any other ways I can obtain hobbyist licences?
>
> Many thanks,
> Alex

Or (strictly illegal, at your own risk and I will deny saying this)
google for pakgen.c
It was once possible to find it on-line

--
Mike R.
Home: http://alpha.mike-r.com/
QOTD: http://alpha.mike-r.com/qotd.php
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#before
and: http://alpha.mike-r.com/jargon/T/top-post.html
Missile address: N31.7624/E34.9691

On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-7, Henry Crun wrote:

(snip)

> Or (strictly illegal, at your own risk and I will deny saying this)
> google for pakgen.c

I haven't read the DMCA so closely, or so recently, but I suspect that setting the
date back is also illegal.

For some years, I tended to run my MicroVAX 3100 just enough to reload the
new license, every two years or so. But just in case I wanted to use it.

I should probably get an Alpha sometime, but I do have an RX2600.
When I first had it running, I kept it on for a while, but it makes a noticeable
increase in the power bill, in addition to being noisy, so it is mostly off.

On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have booted up my simh VAX instances for the first time for years and
> I find that the hobbyist licences I had for these had expired ages ago.
>
> HP/Montager doesn't do them any more and VSI only do Alpha or x64.
> Are there any other ways I can obtain hobbyist licences?
>

So others have already pointed out, the VAX hobbyist program is about
as alive as the Norwegian Blue Parrot.

Alternative operating systems you can run are either an old version
of OpenBSD or the current version of NetBSD. In either case, you might
want to do something else while it's generating the SSH server keys. :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-04-11, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-7, Henry Crun wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>> Or (strictly illegal, at your own risk and I will deny saying this)
>> google for pakgen.c
>
> I haven't read the DMCA so closely, or so recently, but I suspect that setting the
> date back is also illegal.
>

The other problem is that, in addition to being illegal in its own right,
bypassing old hobbyist licences in this way may make VSI far less generous
when it comes to future hobbyist programs.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 4/11/2022 10:24 AM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have booted up my simh VAX instances for the first time for years and
> I find that the hobbyist licences I had for these had expired ages ago.
>
> HP/Montager doesn't do them any more and VSI only do Alpha or x64.
> Are there any other ways I can obtain hobbyist licences?
>
> Many thanks,
> Alex
>

There is no formal option.

Some say there is no legal option.

You can:

Hack the LMF
Find a perpetual license
Purchase a license from HP leasing

Probably more ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/11/22 11:53 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> The other problem is that, in addition to being illegal in its own
> right, bypassing old hobbyist licences in this way may make VSI far
> less generous when it comes to future hobbyist programs.

I agree.

However I also feel like that if the Hobbyist Program for VAX was still
a thing that there are people who would continue to use it.

As such, my opinion is that going your own way /in/ /the/ /absence/ of
an official solution is a /lesser/ evil. Granted it is still an evil in
and of it's own.

I believe that if someone is going to go the pakgen route, they should
do so mirroring all the other restrictions / settings that previous
Hobbyist Licenses from HPE provided. Meaning the same duration and
renewal process. -- My opinion is that demonstrates the the spirit of
wanting to comply /where/ /you/ /can/ while only countering / going
against it /where/ /you/ /otherwise/ /can't/ or have your hand forced.

Anything more than /just/ *date* changes and you're completely off the
reservation and have no pretense of being good.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

On 4/11/2022 1:53 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-04-11, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-7, Henry Crun wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>> Or (strictly illegal, at your own risk and I will deny saying this)
>>> google for pakgen.c
>>
>> I haven't read the DMCA so closely, or so recently, but I suspect that setting the
>> date back is also illegal.
>>
>
> The other problem is that, in addition to being illegal in its own right,
> bypassing old hobbyist licences in this way may make VSI far less generous
> when it comes to future hobbyist programs.
>
> Simon.
>

You're amusing ...

Do you imagine there is even one person at VSI that doesn't understand the
issues, and doesn't sympathize with people wanting to play with an old VAX?

In addition to that, anyone staying current on working with VMS is a potential
resource that just may help VSI. Such as in a new VMS customer looking for some
VMS experience.

Get off that soapbox ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2022-04-11, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> Purchase a license from HP leasing
>

That gets him a VAX OS licence. He will also need the LP licences for
the products that he wants to run (including networking).

That looks like it could get expensive rather quickly. How much are
HP leasing charging for the VAX licences ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 4/11/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-04-11, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> Purchase a license from HP leasing
>>
>
> That gets him a VAX OS licence. He will also need the LP licences for
> the products that he wants to run (including networking).
>
> That looks like it could get expensive rather quickly. How much are
> HP leasing charging for the VAX licences ?

I seriously doubt you could any kind of VAX license from HP.

bill

Den 2022-04-11 kl. 20:29, skrev Dave Froble:
> On 4/11/2022 1:53 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-04-11, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-7, Henry Crun wrote:
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>> Or (strictly illegal, at your own risk and I will deny saying this)
>>>> google for pakgen.c
>>>
>>> I haven't read the DMCA so closely, or so recently, but I suspect that
>>> setting the
>>> date back is also illegal.
>>>
>>
>> The other problem is that, in addition to being illegal in its own right,
>> bypassing old hobbyist licences in this way may make VSI far less generous
>> when it comes to future hobbyist programs.
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>
> You're amusing ...
>
> Do you imagine there is even one person at VSI that doesn't understand the
> issues, and doesn't sympathize with people wanting to play with an old VAX?

In this case, it was not "an old VAX", it was an emulation.
And in this case, why not emulate an Alpha instead?

In article <t31tt3$5aq$1@dont-email.me>,
Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>Den 2022-04-11 kl. 20:29, skrev Dave Froble:
>> On 4/11/2022 1:53 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-11, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-7, Henry Crun wrote:
>>>>
>>>> (snip)
>>>>
>>>>> Or (strictly illegal, at your own risk and I will deny saying this)
>>>>> google for pakgen.c
>>>>
>>>> I haven't read the DMCA so closely, or so recently, but I suspect that
>>>> setting the
>>>> date back is also illegal.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The other problem is that, in addition to being illegal in its own right,
>>> bypassing old hobbyist licences in this way may make VSI far less generous
>>> when it comes to future hobbyist programs.
>>>
>>> Simon.
>>>
>>
>> You're amusing ...
>>
>> Do you imagine there is even one person at VSI that doesn't understand the
>> issues, and doesn't sympathize with people wanting to play with an old VAX?
>
>In this case, it was not "an old VAX", it was an emulation.
>And in this case, why not emulate an Alpha instead?

What's the status of AXPBox these days? Does it boot VMS and
run reliably? I'd love to turn off my aging Alpha, and I've
got an undersubscribed machine that I'm already paying the power
bill on running emulation for other machine/OS combos that
could happy run take over for it.

- Dan C.

On 4/11/22 15:19, Dan Cross wrote:
> In article <t31tt3$5aq$1@dont-email.me>,
> Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>> Den 2022-04-11 kl. 20:29, skrev Dave Froble:
>>> On 4/11/2022 1:53 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-11, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-7, Henry Crun wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Or (strictly illegal, at your own risk and I will deny saying this)
>>>>>> google for pakgen.c
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't read the DMCA so closely, or so recently, but I suspect that
>>>>> setting the
>>>>> date back is also illegal.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The other problem is that, in addition to being illegal in its own right,
>>>> bypassing old hobbyist licences in this way may make VSI far less generous
>>>> when it comes to future hobbyist programs.
>>>>
>>>> Simon.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You're amusing ...
>>>
>>> Do you imagine there is even one person at VSI that doesn't understand the
>>> issues, and doesn't sympathize with people wanting to play with an old VAX?
>>
>> In this case, it was not "an old VAX", it was an emulation.
>> And in this case, why not emulate an Alpha instead?
>
> What's the status of AXPBox these days? Does it boot VMS and
> run reliably? I'd love to turn off my aging Alpha, and I've
> got an undersubscribed machine that I'm already paying the power
> bill on running emulation for other machine/OS combos that
> could happy run take over for it.

Been a couple months since I last tried but I could never get networking
under VMS to work. Will try again at some point. At the moment I am
busy setting up a bunch of my retro stuff to keep me busy for what I
expect to be a long dismal summer recuperating from knee surgery.

bill

On 4/11/2022 2:29 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 1:53 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-04-11, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-7, Henry Crun wrote:
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>> Or (strictly illegal, at your own risk and I will deny saying this)
>>>> google for pakgen.c
>>>
>>> I haven't read the DMCA so closely, or so recently, but I suspect
>>> that setting the
>>> date back is also illegal.
>>>
>>
>> The other problem is that, in addition to being illegal in its own right,
>> bypassing old hobbyist licences in this way may make VSI far less
>> generous
>> when it comes to future hobbyist programs.
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>
> You're amusing ...
>
> Do you imagine there is even one person at VSI that doesn't understand
> the issues, and doesn't sympathize with people wanting to play with an
> old VAX?
>
> In addition to that, anyone staying current on working with VMS is a
> potential resource that just may help VSI.  Such as in a new VMS
> customer looking for some VMS experience.
>
> Get off that soapbox ...
>
When VSI started, VSI got zero rights to anything VAX-specific. That
would include generating VAX licenses, hobbyist or not.

VAX has become "ignoreware" as far as HPE is concerned. Someone would
need to find the person within HPE with the authority to do so, to allow
a hobbyist group to create hobbyist (or perpetual) licenses legally.
Good luck, the relevant person is unlikely to be able to even spell "VAX".

In article <jbje47F9tomU1@mid.individual.net>,
Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 4/11/22 15:19, Dan Cross wrote:
>> What's the status of AXPBox these days? Does it boot VMS and
>> run reliably? I'd love to turn off my aging Alpha, and I've
>> got an undersubscribed machine that I'm already paying the power
>> bill on running emulation for other machine/OS combos that
>> could happy run take over for it.
>
>Been a couple months since I last tried but I could never get networking
>under VMS to work. Will try again at some point. At the moment I am
>busy setting up a bunch of my retro stuff to keep me busy for what I
>expect to be a long dismal summer recuperating from knee surgery.

Ooophf. Sorry to hear that.

- Dan C.

On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 17:50 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > I have booted up my simh VAX instances for the first time for years
> > and
> > I find that the hobbyist licences I had for these had expired ages
> > ago.
> >
> > HP/Montager doesn't do them any more and VSI only do Alpha or x64.
> > Are there any other ways I can obtain hobbyist licences?
> >
>
> So others have already pointed out, the VAX hobbyist program is about
> as alive as the Norwegian Blue Parrot.
>
> Alternative operating systems you can run are either an old version
> of OpenBSD or the current version of NetBSD. In either case, you
> might
> want to do something else while it's generating the SSH server keys.
> :-)

Thanks to all who replied. I think I'll move my stuff off the VAX
images onto ES40 and use Alpha instead. I've now applied for a
community licence for Alpha/VMS.

Although the question of how I can transfer my stuff off VAX images
without TCP/IP licence remains unanswered :-D

Cheers,
Alex
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 4/11/2022 2:29 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 4/11/22 11:53 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> The other problem is that, in addition to being illegal in its own right,
>> bypassing old hobbyist licences in this way may make VSI far less generous
>> when it comes to future hobbyist programs.
>
> I agree.
>
> However I also feel like that if the Hobbyist Program for VAX was still a thing
> that there are people who would continue to use it.
>
> As such, my opinion is that going your own way /in/ /the/ /absence/ of an
> official solution is a /lesser/ evil. Granted it is still an evil in and of
> it's own.
>
> I believe that if someone is going to go the pakgen route, they should do so
> mirroring all the other restrictions / settings that previous Hobbyist Licenses
> from HPE provided. Meaning the same duration and renewal process. -- My
> opinion is that demonstrates the the spirit of wanting to comply /where/ /you/
> /can/ while only countering / going against it /where/ /you/ /otherwise/ /can't/
> or have your hand forced.
>
> Anything more than /just/ *date* changes and you're completely off the
> reservation and have no pretense of being good.
>
>
>

An interesting observation.

When I contacted HP leasing about licenses, one of the first comments I got was
"I don't know why anyone would want this old stuff".

What HP leasing thinks of VAX and VMS.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/11/2022 5:42 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 17:50 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I have booted up my simh VAX instances for the first time for years
>>> and
>>> I find that the hobbyist licences I had for these had expired ages
>>> ago.
>>>
>>> HP/Montager doesn't do them any more and VSI only do Alpha or x64.
>>> Are there any other ways I can obtain hobbyist licences?
>>>
>>
>> So others have already pointed out, the VAX hobbyist program is about
>> as alive as the Norwegian Blue Parrot.
>>
>> Alternative operating systems you can run are either an old version
>> of OpenBSD or the current version of NetBSD. In either case, you
>> might
>> want to do something else while it's generating the SSH server keys.
>> :-)
>
> Thanks to all who replied. I think I'll move my stuff off the VAX
> images onto ES40 and use Alpha instead. I've now applied for a
> community licence for Alpha/VMS.
>
> Although the question of how I can transfer my stuff off VAX images
> without TCP/IP licence remains unanswered :-D
>
> Cheers,
> Alex
>

DECnet IV

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/11/2022 2:30 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-04-11, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> Purchase a license from HP leasing
>>
>
> That gets him a VAX OS licence. He will also need the LP licences for
> the products that he wants to run (including networking).
>
> That looks like it could get expensive rather quickly. How much are
> HP leasing charging for the VAX licences ?
>
> Simon.
>

I seem to recall something like $500 for each license.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/11/2022 2:39 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 4/11/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-04-11, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> Purchase a license from HP leasing
>>>
>>
>> That gets him a VAX OS licence. He will also need the LP licences for
>> the products that he wants to run (including networking).
>>
>> That looks like it could get expensive rather quickly. How much are
>> HP leasing charging for the VAX licences ?
>
> I seriously doubt you could any kind of VAX license from HP.
>
> bill
>
>

When I asked, they had licenses off old leased equipment.

Guess it's Ok for HP leasing to transfer licenses ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/11/2022 3:44 PM, Michael Moroney wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 2:29 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> Do you imagine there is even one person at VSI that doesn't understand
>> the issues, and doesn't sympathize with people wanting to play with an
>> old VAX?
>>
>> In addition to that, anyone staying current on working with VMS is a
>> potential resource that just may help VSI.  Such as in a new VMS
>> customer looking for some VMS experience.

Those looking for VMS experience could just run VMS Alpha.

>> Get off that soapbox ...
>>
> When VSI started, VSI got zero rights to anything VAX-specific. That
> would include generating VAX licenses, hobbyist or not.

I thought the story was that VSI can only create licenses for VSI VMS
not HP(E) VMS and that VSI has not plans of ever building a
VSI VMS VAX.

Arne

On 4/11/2022 6:42 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 2:39 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 4/11/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-11, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>> Purchase a license from HP leasing
>>>
>>> That gets him a VAX OS licence. He will also need the LP licences for
>>> the products that he wants to run (including networking).
>>>
>>> That looks like it could get expensive rather quickly. How much are
>>> HP leasing charging for the VAX licences ?
>>
>> I seriously doubt you could any kind of VAX license from HP.
>
> When I asked, they had licenses off old leased equipment.
>
> Guess it's Ok for HP leasing to transfer licenses ...

They may not know what VMS is but they know what
money is.

Arne

On 4/11/22 3:42 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> Although the question of how I can transfer my stuff off VAX images
> without TCP/IP licence remains unanswered :-D

I feel like a one time transfer using a time jumped date game is
probably something that can be overlooked. Especially if you already
have the current (hobbyist) license for the destination (emulated) alpha.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die