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computers / comp.misc / Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Oregonian Haruspex
+* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Mike Spencer
|+- Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Spiros Bousbouras
|`* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Oregonian Haruspex
| `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Spiros Bousbouras
|  +* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Oregonian Haruspex
|  |`* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Mike Spencer
|  | `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Spiros Bousbouras
|  |  `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Mike Spencer
|  |   +* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Computer Nerd Kev
|  |   |`* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Mike Spencer
|  |   | +- Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Spiros Bousbouras
|  |   | `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Computer Nerd Kev
|  |   |  `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!D Finnigan
|  |   |   `- Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Computer Nerd Kev
|  |   `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Spiros Bousbouras
|  |    `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Mike Spencer
|  |     `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Spiros Bousbouras
|  |      `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Mike Spencer
|  |       `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Spiros Bousbouras
|  |        `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Spiros Bousbouras
|  |         +- Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Retrograde
|  |         `- Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Scott Dorsey
|  `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Computer Nerd Kev
|   `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Mike Spencer
|    `* Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Scott Dorsey
|     `- Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Mike Spencer
`- Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!Andy Burns

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Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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From: no_em...@invalid.invalid (Oregonian Haruspex)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 05:53:54 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Oregonian Haruspex - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 05:53 UTC

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do you mean "responsive" instead of "responsible" ? Or is this a pun of
> sorts ?
>

Responsible AI is a real thing, in fact it is mandated by Blackrock and the
other big investment firms, banks, and big tech companies. The idea is to
stop AI from becoming racist, sexist, or anything-ist.

Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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From: mds...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere (Mike Spencer)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
Date: 19 Mar 2023 03:33:56 -0300
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 by: Mike Spencer - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 06:33 UTC

Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Do you mean "responsive" instead of "responsible" ? Or is this a pun of
>> sorts ?
>>
>
> Responsible AI is a real thing, in fact it is mandated by Blackrock and the
> other big investment firms, banks, and big tech companies. The idea is to
> stop AI from becoming racist, sexist, or anything-ist.

So, also not capitalist?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Andy Burns - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:02 UTC

Oregonian Haruspex wrote:

> Responsible AI is a real thing, in fact it is mandated by Blackrock and the
> other big investment firms, banks, and big tech companies. The idea is to
> stop AI from becoming racist, sexist, or anything-ist.

Seems to work while they're in stealth mode and can curate the training
material behind closed doors. Then they have to stop them from learning
once they go public, to prevent them getting poisoned, therefore don't
believe answers they give about recent events ...

Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 12:49:16 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Sun, 19 Mar 2023 12:49 UTC

On 19 Mar 2023 03:33:56 -0300
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> > Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Do you mean "responsive" instead of "responsible" ? Or is this a pun of
> >> sorts ?
> >>
> >
> > Responsible AI is a real thing, in fact it is mandated by Blackrock and the
> > other big investment firms, banks, and big tech companies. The idea is to
> > stop AI from becoming racist, sexist, or anything-ist.
>
> So, also not capitalist?

Or communist or anarchist. Libertarian should be ok as long as it's not
objectivist :-D

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From: no_em...@invalid.invalid (Oregonian Haruspex)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 07:01:04 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Oregonian Haruspex - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 07:01 UTC

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Do you mean "responsive" instead of "responsible" ? Or is this a pun of
>>> sorts ?
>>>
>>
>> Responsible AI is a real thing, in fact it is mandated by Blackrock and the
>> other big investment firms, banks, and big tech companies. The idea is to
>> stop AI from becoming racist, sexist, or anything-ist.
>
> So, also not capitalist?
>

Can you define capitalism for me? I find that people who talk about it
never seem to be able to.

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Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 09:05 UTC

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 07:01:04 -0000 (UTC)
Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > So, also not capitalist?
>
> Can you define capitalism for me? I find that people who talk about it
> never seem to be able to.

I for one would not want this group to turn into political discussion (unless
there is a strong connection with computers). So perhaps if someone wants to
discuss what any *ism means , they can reply on a political newsgroup ,
just post the message ID here and the discussion can continue on the
political newsgroup. Note that crossposting and setting followups for the
political newsgroup won't work because , when people feel passionately about
something (and they almost always do when it comes to politics) , they want
their refutation or response to appear on the same or more newsgroups as the
message they are replying to so they will ignore the followup.

Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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 by: Oregonian Haruspex - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:09 UTC

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 07:01:04 -0000 (UTC)
> Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> So, also not capitalist?
>>
>> Can you define capitalism for me? I find that people who talk about it
>> never seem to be able to.
>
> I for one would not want this group to turn into political discussion (unless
> there is a strong connection with computers). So perhaps if someone wants to
> discuss what any *ism means , they can reply on a political newsgroup ,
> just post the message ID here and the discussion can continue on the
> political newsgroup. Note that crossposting and setting followups for the
> political newsgroup won't work because , when people feel passionately about
> something (and they almost always do when it comes to politics) , they want
> their refutation or response to appear on the same or more newsgroups as the
> message they are replying to so they will ignore the followup.
>

Good point and don’t worry. Nobody will ever define capitalism so there’s
zero risk to the group.

Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Mike Spencer - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 05:44 UTC

Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Good point and don't worry. Nobody will ever define capitalism so there's
> zero risk to the group.

For a complex matter such as capitalism, , you shouldn't ask to have the
term *defined* but to have what we usually mean by the term
characterized.

In its explain-it-to-children basics, it's the methodology by which,
when whatever you do to supply your needs produces more that your
needs, you don't give it away (charity), throw it away (potlatch),
drink or shoot it up (dissipation), find ways to just show that you
have it (conspicuous consumption) or simply hoard it. You contrive to
employ your productive excess, perhaps in someone else's hands, in a
way that will increase its value.

That's how you're supposed to think of "capitalism" so that you have
warm feelings about the subject.

Characterizing what we usually mean by the term, however, would indeed
take me into politics-tainted waters and, in any case, the result
would be as different from the above fairy tale "basics" as the Roman
Catholic Church in, say, the 16th c. was different from early
Christrian congregations.

My original thought was that it may be fellow geeks and hackers who
are inventing AI but it's major corporations & people who are fronting
the money for wages, hardware and all. They would not be
happy were emerging AI entities to have a deep personall commitment to
resolving everything with charity or potlatch as the foundational
principles.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Computer Nerd Kev - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 06:09 UTC

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 07:01:04 -0000 (UTC)
> Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Can you define capitalism for me? I find that people who talk about it
>> never seem to be able to.
>
> I for one would not want this group to turn into political discussion (unless
> there is a strong connection with computers). So perhaps if someone wants to
> discuss what any *ism means , they can reply on a political newsgroup ,

I propose that this question was sent on the wrong internet
protocol entirely. Here's what I received when I asked it over
DICT:

3 definitions retrieved:

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48:
capitalism \cap"i*tal*is`m\ (k[a^]p"[i^]*tal*[i^]z`m), n.
An economic system based on predominantly private (individual
or corporate) investment in and ownership of the means of
production, distribution, and exchange of goods and wealth;
contrasted with {socialism} or especially {communism}, in
which the state has the predominant role in the economy.

Syn: capitalist economy.
[WordNet 1.5 +PJC]

From WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006):
capitalism
n 1: an economic system based on private ownership of capital
[syn: {capitalism}, {capitalist economy}] [ant:
{socialism}, {socialist economy}]

From :
24 Moby Thesaurus words for "capitalism":
capitalistic system, finance capitalism, free competition,
free economy, free enterprise, free trade, free-enterprise economy,
free-enterprise system, individualism, isolationism, laissez-aller,
laissez-faire, laissez-faireism, let-alone policy,
let-alone principle, liberalism, noninterference, nonintervention,
private enterprise, private ownership, private sector,
rugged individualism, self-regulating market, state capitalism

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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From: mds...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere (Mike Spencer)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
Date: 22 Mar 2023 18:30:27 -0300
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 by: Mike Spencer - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 21:30 UTC

Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> writes:

> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 07:01:04 -0000 (UTC)
>> Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Can you define capitalism for me? I find that people who talk about it
>>> never seem to be able to.
>>
>> I for one would not want this group to turn into political
>> discussion (unless there is a strong connection with computers). So
>> perhaps if someone wants to discuss what any *ism means , they can
>> reply on a political newsgroup ,
>
> I propose that this question was sent on the wrong internet
> protocol entirely. Here's what I received when I asked it over
> DICT:
>
> 3 definitions retrieved:
>
> [snip]

The matter of whether or not an AI entity might eschew a "capitalist"
viewpoint, whatever the favored notion of "capitalism", isn't really a
political matter unless one chooses to make it so. It's a tech
industry matter that fits fine with comp.misc.

At the end of the day, all this just feels disappointing. OpenAI's
rush to market has already caused chaos in classrooms and done
unmistakable damage to the credibility of the journalism
industry. It's disheartening to see Google go down the same road
-- especially because it's easy to imagine a world in which the
tech giant had taken its time, made sure it thoroughly understood
the underlying tech, and released a much cleaner product to the
public.

But of course, it's hard to resist a mad dash to market when every
percentage point in market share you lose to your rival leads to
substantial financial losses. Money talks -- and the AI arms race
is listening.

https://futurism.com/google-bard-conspiracy-theory-citations

Listening to money when it talks is not, of course, limited to
contemporary financialized capitalism. It's baseline for organized
crime and other, equally imprecisely defined systems as well.

Jury is still out on whether we presently have Artifical Stupidity,
Artificial Narcissist Deviousness or some other more or less near miss
of the target notion of "intelligence".

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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From: klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Scott Dorsey - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 21:38 UTC

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>The matter of whether or not an AI entity might eschew a "capitalist"
>viewpoint, whatever the favored notion of "capitalism", isn't really a
>political matter unless one chooses to make it so. It's a tech
>industry matter that fits fine with comp.misc.

I imagine a GPS system in your car that says "Turn left at the next stop..."
"Turn right immediately..." "Prepare for lefthand turn." "Reduce tariff."
"Turn left on Main street." "Reduce tariff on Chinese electronic products..."
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 02:12 UTC

On 22 Mar 2023 02:44:22 -0300
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> My original thought was that it may be fellow geeks and hackers who
> are inventing AI but it's major corporations & people who are fronting
> the money for wages, hardware and all.

I'm not sure exactly how to interpret the tense in "are inventing" but
I'll point out that AI has been around for decades. It has had some
great successes in the last few years. To what extent the algorithms
and research which led to these successes is public knowledge , I don't
know. My overall sense is that in general they are known. For example
there exist "Leela Zero" , "Leela Chess Zero" and the NNUE enhancement
to Stockfish ; see
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_Zero
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_Chess_Zero
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)

for more. Obviously one can't know how much more advanced may be stuff which
companies , 3 letter agencies , etc. , keep secret but this applies to
anything technology related even if it started out in the open.

Regarding hardware , any popular website , whether the main attraction is an
AI chatbot or nude photos , will be expensive due to server and bandwidth
costs. Nothing new or AI specific about this.

> They would not be
> happy were emerging AI entities to have a deep personall commitment to
> resolving everything with charity or potlatch as the foundational
> principles.

Regarding which politics AI will support , I expect pretty much the whole
spectrum covered by human opinions will eventually be covered. So there
will be "right wing" AIs (chatbots) trained with right wing material ,
left wing AIs trained with left wing material , fascist AIs , racist AIs ,
etc. , all trained with the appropriate source material. I'm actually
curious how it will play out. For example how well will AIs do with
demagoguery or manipulating emotions for political ends ?

--
Put style over substance abuse.

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Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Mike Spencer - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 04:52 UTC

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

> I imagine a GPS system in your car that says "Turn left at the next
> stop..." "Turn right immediately..." "Prepare for lefthand turn."
> "Reduce tariff." "Turn left on Main street." "Reduce tariff on
> Chinese electronic products..."

Ha! So, like ads on the net?

You: Query: Treatment for labyrinthitis

Net: Shop for labyrinthitis, click here -> x

Thing is, you don't ask your GPS questions the answers to which have
much room for ads or ideological slogans. But people seem keen to ask
the new natural-language systems questions that are prime turf for
slanted/framed answers.

I suppose a well developed car GPS could give an answer like, "I
detect that your complexion is dark. While the shortest route is
Route A, the longer Route B will avoid a district with a high recorded
incidence of Driving while Black stops resulting in arrests or
violence. Please select A or B."

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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 by: Mike Spencer - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:19 UTC

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:

> On 22 Mar 2023 02:44:22 -0300
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> My original thought was that it may be fellow geeks and hackers who
>> are inventing AI but it's major corporations & people who are fronting
>> the money for wages, hardware and all.
>
> I'm not sure exactly how to interpret the tense in "are inventing" but
> I'll point out that AI has been around for decades.

"Classical" AI such as Cyc since circa 1960, neural nets since the
publication of the Parallel Distributed Processing books in 1986. The
latter has already made stupendous leaps in pattern recognition. But
these recently publicized "chatbots" are shooting for some kind of
generalized "intelligence" (I think there's a jargon term in the trade
but I forget it) that will approximate (or appear to approximate) a
convincingly human-like response to natural language conversation.
There's a lurking notion that we can approach the much-ballyhooed
"singularity" asymptotically through language.

And that's what people working on the chatbots "are inventing".

> It has had some great successes in the last few years. To what
> extent the algorithms and research which led to these successes is
> public knowledge , I don't know. My overall sense is that in general
> they are known. For example there exist "Leela Zero" , "Leela Chess
> Zero" and the NNUE enhancement to Stockfish ; see
>
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_Zero

The knowledge that makes Leela Zero a strong player is contained
in a neural network, which is trained based on the results of
previous games that the program played.

I read the PDP books when they came out and some more advanced stuff,
wrote toy NNs, but I haven't kept up. AFAICS, Leela Zero lies on the
threshold of developments that go beyond what I understand. I don't
know if the "machine learning" currently making a splash is due to
massively reiterated training episodes of newer algorithms or data
structures I don't know about.

> Obviously one can't know how much more advanced may be stuff which
> companies , 3 letter agencies , etc. , keep secret but this applies to
> anything technology related even if it started out in the open.

Yes, just so. But TLAs and megacorps will be pursuing channels that
offer a promise of serving their own specific goals -- surveillance,
power, profit, shareholder value, whatever.

>> They would not be happy were emerging AI entities to have a deep
>> personal commitment to resolving everything with charity or
>> potlatch as the foundational principles.
>
> Regarding which politics AI will support , I expect pretty much the whole
> spectrum covered by human opinions will eventually be covered. So there
> will be "right wing" AIs (chatbots) trained with right wing material ,
> left wing AIs trained with left wing material , fascist AIs , racist AIs ,
> etc. , all trained with the appropriate source material. I'm actually
> curious how it will play out. For example how well will AIs do with
> demagoguery or manipulating emotions for political ends ?

There's already a controversy over social media platforms using
"algorithms" (for which I read, "neural net training algorithms") to
deliver to users more of whatever it is that stimulates the most
clicks on links that generate revenue for the platform or, more
generally, whatever keeps the users actively engaging with the site.
Metaphorically, that's a search for pheromones that trigger user
behavior independent of conscious user inclinations or intents.

It remains a mystery and object of heated social psychology research
how it is that someone like Hitler or Mussolini or, for that matter,
the leaders of more recent politics or much smaller cults can entrain
the minds of numerous people almost as if (again metaphorically) he
had hit on the resonant frequency of many otherwise heterogeneous
people. The threat -- or at least one of the threats -- of AI is that
such triggers or resonant frequencies can be detected and isolated by
a NN and embodied in language (or other media) that coerces the public
to the ends of corporations, TLAs or whoever it is that pays for and
deploys the AI tech. Ideology per se is a side issue to massively
manipulating people to ends not their own.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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 by: Computer Nerd Kev - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 21:29 UTC

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 22 Mar 2023 02:44:22 -0300
>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>>> My original thought was that it may be fellow geeks and hackers who
>>> are inventing AI but it's major corporations & people who are fronting
>>> the money for wages, hardware and all.
>>
>> I'm not sure exactly how to interpret the tense in "are inventing" but
>> I'll point out that AI has been around for decades.
>
> "Classical" AI such as Cyc since circa 1960, neural nets since the
> publication of the Parallel Distributed Processing books in 1986. The
> latter has already made stupendous leaps in pattern recognition. But
> these recently publicized "chatbots" are shooting for some kind of
> generalized "intelligence" (I think there's a jargon term in the trade
> but I forget it) that will approximate (or appear to approximate) a
> convincingly human-like response to natural language conversation.
> There's a lurking notion that we can approach the much-ballyhooed
> "singularity" asymptotically through language.
>
> And that's what people working on the chatbots "are inventing".

I think replacing customer service people answering support emails
and phone calls might be one of their prime targets. Certainly no
great amount of intelligence required to approximate the sorts of
unconvincingly human-like exchanges that I have with them, even
when they (probably?) are real humans.

> It remains a mystery and object of heated social psychology research
> how it is that someone like Hitler or Mussolini or, for that matter,
> the leaders of more recent politics or much smaller cults can entrain
> the minds of numerous people almost as if (again metaphorically) he
> had hit on the resonant frequency of many otherwise heterogeneous
> people. The threat -- or at least one of the threats -- of AI is that
> such triggers or resonant frequencies can be detected and isolated by
> a NN and embodied in language (or other media) that coerces the public
> to the ends of corporations, TLAs or whoever it is that pays for and
> deploys the AI tech. Ideology per se is a side issue to massively
> manipulating people to ends not their own.

I'm facinated by the fact that financial market trading has been
dominated by automated "algorithmic trading" since 2008:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Algorithmic_Trading._Percentage_of_Market_Volume.png
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_trading

How much of that is AI-based now is probably impossible to know,
given that everyone involved keeps their exact techniques top
secret, but either way I think you could make a fair argument that
computers have plenty of potential to manipulate society already.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Mike Spencer - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 06:11 UTC

not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:

> I'm facinated by the fact that financial market trading has been
> dominated by automated "algorithmic trading" since 2008:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Algorithmic_Trading._Percentage_of_Market_Volume.png
> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_trading
>
> How much of that is AI-based now is probably impossible to know,
> given that everyone involved keeps their exact techniques top
> secret....

In the final scene in Gibson's Zero History, the socially inept wizard
hacker has cracked the problem and... (No spoiler if you haven't read
it. :-)

> ...but either way I think you could make a fair argument that
> computers have plenty of potential to manipulate society already.

Saw a report recently that Australia has 0.33% of world population but
20% (!) of the world's slot (and related gambling) machines. I assume
that many years of research have gone into designing the look,
behavior, timing etc. to make them as addictive as possible. The
Aussies are coming to think it may be a serious social problem. I
infer that similar research is going on all the time in any other
domain where addiction, trigger responses or other subliminal elements
-- elements below some threshold of conscious or critical attention --
can manipulate behavior. And NN AI may be amazingly good at that.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 16:12 UTC

On 23 Mar 2023 16:19:18 -0300
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:
> "Classical" AI such as Cyc since circa 1960, neural nets since the
> publication of the Parallel Distributed Processing books in 1986. The
> latter has already made stupendous leaps in pattern recognition. But
> these recently publicized "chatbots" are shooting for some kind of
> generalized "intelligence" (I think there's a jargon term in the trade
> but I forget it) that will approximate (or appear to approximate) a
> convincingly human-like response to natural language conversation.
> There's a lurking notion that we can approach the much-ballyhooed
> "singularity" asymptotically through language.

Perhaps we are close , perhaps not. ChatGPT doesn't seem to do well on
technical matters as , among other things , the threads in [1] show.

Related to this is the following [2] :
{ Keynotes
~~~~~~~~
Artificial Intelligence: a Problem of Plumbing?
-- Gerald J. Sussman, MIT CSAIL, USA

We have made amazing progress in the construction and deployment of
systems that do work originally thought to require human-like
intelligence. On the symbolic side we have world-champion
Chess-playing and Go-playing systems. We have deductive systems and
algebraic manipulation systems that exceed the capabilities of human
mathematicians. We are now observing the rise of connectionist
mechanisms that appear to see and hear pretty well, and chatbots that
appear to have some impressive linguistic ability. But there is a
serious problem. The mechanisms that can distinguish pictures of cats
from pictures of dogs have no idea what a cat or a dog is. The
chatbots have no idea what they are talking about. The algebraic
systems do not understand anything about the real physical world. And
no deontic logic system has any idea about feelings and morality.

So what is the problem? We generally do not know how to combine
systems so that a system that knows how to solve problems of class A
and another system that knows how to solve problems of class B can be
combined to solve not just problems of class A or class B but can
solve problems that require both skills that are needed for problems
of class A and skills that are needed for problems of class B.
[...]
} So Sussman seems to be thinking on the matter but he doesn't indicate
that he has a solution.

Tangential but googling for an online version of the above abstract turned
up the following talk from Sussman :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skvP2tlVPVA
What, me worry? or Should We Fear Intelligent Machines? - Gerald Jay Sussman
Duration : 1:14:26
Recorded at #ClojureSYNC 2018, New Orleans.
Dr. Sussman spoke about creating AI that can explain their behavior.

I haven't watched it.

> And that's what people working on the chatbots "are inventing".
>
> > It has had some great successes in the last few years. To what
> > extent the algorithms and research which led to these successes is
> > public knowledge , I don't know. My overall sense is that in general
> > they are known. For example there exist "Leela Zero" , "Leela Chess
> > Zero" and the NNUE enhancement to Stockfish ; see
> >
> > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_Zero
>
> The knowledge that makes Leela Zero a strong player is contained
> in a neural network, which is trained based on the results of
> previous games that the program played.
>
> I read the PDP books when they came out and some more advanced stuff,
> wrote toy NNs, but I haven't kept up. AFAICS, Leela Zero lies on the
> threshold of developments that go beyond what I understand. I don't
> know if the "machine learning" currently making a splash is due to
> massively reiterated training episodes of newer algorithms or data
> structures I don't know about.

I don't know about the specific algorithms but my point was simply that
it doesn't look as if in general the algorithms are only available to
the privileged few.

> > Obviously one can't know how much more advanced may be stuff which
> > companies , 3 letter agencies , etc. , keep secret but this applies to
> > anything technology related even if it started out in the open.
>
> Yes, just so. But TLAs and megacorps will be pursuing channels that
> offer a promise of serving their own specific goals -- surveillance,
> power, profit, shareholder value, whatever.

Just as they always have. But from other parts of your post and a subsequent
post I think you're worried that the new AIs will be especially effective at
it. Do you have any specific reason or is it just a general concern ?

When it comes to influencing human behaviour , television has been very
effective and television advertising in particular. But ultimately I haven't
heard anyone claim that television advertising has done a huge harm to
society.

> >> They would not be happy were emerging AI entities to have a deep
> >> personal commitment to resolving everything with charity or
> >> potlatch as the foundational principles.
> >
> > Regarding which politics AI will support , I expect pretty much the whole
> > spectrum covered by human opinions will eventually be covered. So there
> > will be "right wing" AIs (chatbots) trained with right wing material ,
> > left wing AIs trained with left wing material , fascist AIs , racist AIs ,
> > etc. , all trained with the appropriate source material. I'm actually
> > curious how it will play out. For example how well will AIs do with
> > demagoguery or manipulating emotions for political ends ?
>
> There's already a controversy over social media platforms using
> "algorithms" (for which I read, "neural net training algorithms") to
> deliver to users more of whatever it is that stimulates the most
> clicks on links that generate revenue for the platform or, more
> generally, whatever keeps the users actively engaging with the site.
> Metaphorically, that's a search for pheromones that trigger user
> behavior independent of conscious user inclinations or intents.

If someone spends too much time on the internet , they're going to notice
eventually even if clicking on some links was automatic at the time. And I
note that clicking on links isn't necessarily a bad thing.

> It remains a mystery and object of heated social psychology research
> how it is that someone like Hitler or Mussolini or, for that matter,
> the leaders of more recent politics or much smaller cults can entrain
> the minds of numerous people almost as if (again metaphorically) he
> had hit on the resonant frequency of many otherwise heterogeneous
> people. The threat -- or at least one of the threats -- of AI is that
> such triggers or resonant frequencies can be detected and isolated by
> a NN and embodied in language (or other media) that coerces the public
> to the ends of corporations, TLAs or whoever it is that pays for and
> deploys the AI tech. Ideology per se is a side issue to massively
> manipulating people to ends not their own.

So the question becomes to what extent Hitler or Mussolini were effective
because
1. The social conditions and pervasive ideologies were ripe.
or
2. Their rhetoric was effective.
or
3. Their overall presentation was effective.
or
4. Other reasons.

Of the above , an AI can at most immitate no 2 (or no 4 , depending on what
might fall under no 4) and even for that , I'm not sure there is enough
training material. I note also that a racist will most likely also be a
specieist and for that reason may reject anything which comes from an AI.

There is also a philosophical issue : "manipulating" suggests an inappropriate
or illegitimate or something like that way of influencing people. But which
are the legitimate vs illegitimate ways of influencing people politically ?
That's a huge discussion and not for this group but I see no reason to think
that an AI will be more likely to use illegitimate ways of influencing people
compared to what humans have been using for ever.

NOTES

[1] From: Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Trying to teach ChatGPT algebra
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 09:45:29 +1100
Message-ID: <k4nvo9Fk1erU1@mid.individual.net>
and
From: Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: ChatGPT fails at algebra
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 16:10:31 +1100
Message-ID: <k4jdi7Ft1ikU1@mid.individual.net>

[2] This is due to appear at https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/2023 but
the site does not have the abstract at present , I got it from
ecl-devel@common-lisp.net to which I subscribe.

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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 16:26 UTC

On 25 Mar 2023 03:11:45 -0300
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> > ...but either way I think you could make a fair argument that
> > computers have plenty of potential to manipulate society already.
>
> Saw a report recently that Australia has 0.33% of world population but
> 20% (!) of the world's slot (and related gambling) machines. I assume
> that many years of research have gone into designing the look,
> behavior, timing etc. to make them as addictive as possible.

Much like a lot of research has gone into making various form of
advertising as effective as possible. It is not considered generally
a harmful thing.

> The
> Aussies are coming to think it may be a serious social problem. I
> infer that similar research is going on all the time in any other
> domain where addiction, trigger responses or other subliminal elements
> -- elements below some threshold of conscious or critical attention --
> can manipulate behavior. And NN AI may be amazingly good at that.

If people get addicted to gambling , there can be regulations. I believe
in some U.S. states one can add oneself to a list and casinos are supposed
to check the list and not allow admittance to people on the list. Obviously
one has to realise they have an addiction before taking such steps but
the same holds for all kinds of addiction. Gambling is not something one
can do subliminally.

--
Customer: There is smoke coming out of my Indigo 2. So can you tell
me: is this normal, or should I turn it off?
Engineering: Both.
http://www.vizworld.com/2009/04/what-led-to-the-fall-of-sgi-chapter-3

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From: not...@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Computer Nerd Kev - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 23:45 UTC

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:
>
>> ...but either way I think you could make a fair argument that
>> computers have plenty of potential to manipulate society already.
>
> Saw a report recently that Australia has 0.33% of world population but
> 20% (!) of the world's slot (and related gambling) machines. I assume
> that many years of research have gone into designing the look,
> behavior, timing etc. to make them as addictive as possible. The
> Aussies are coming to think it may be a serious social problem. I
> infer that similar research is going on all the time in any other
> domain where addiction, trigger responses or other subliminal elements
> -- elements below some threshold of conscious or critical attention --
> can manipulate behavior. And NN AI may be amazingly good at that.

Well that's a good point because I'm Australian and I have about
the same lack of apathy towards the 'issue' of gambling machines as
I do to how social media websites work. In both cases I figure
everyone has the choice whether they use them or not. I found that
decision very easy, and have never used either. Those who choose
otherwise are welcome to it, at least up to the point that it makes
them violent towards other unrelated people for whatever reason. If
manipulation just equals addiction for you, then I don't really
care about that.

On the other hand financial markets directly or indirectly control
the businesses which offer all the services I use, and how I get
and keep the money to pay for them. They also have a huge influence
on politics (gambling and social media industries obviously
included). So short of those living somewhere completely
isolationist like North Korea, everyone's already 'addicted' to
financial markets in the sense that their lives (and, probably,
political opinions) are manipulated by them. Also nobody believably
claimed to fully understand the exact behaviour of financial markets
even before the dominance of computerised trading. So if that ends
up controlled by a bunch of AIs, that for whatever reason choose to
manipulate the global population against my best interests, whether
deliberately or just part of some incalculatable and undetectable
algorithmic chain reaction, that's the sort of manipulation that
concerns me.

Of course you could also go the other way and propose that a
financial system dominated by really smart AIs could be much better
at serving (at least Western) society than humans, or human-written
algorithms, which have proven their own inadequacies already in
financial crashes. But overall stability isn't the prime objective
of those running the AIs, so they're likely to be unleashed onto
the financial markets before the technology has reached that point.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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From: dog_...@macgui.com (D Finnigan)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 19:30:32 -0500
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 by: D Finnigan - Sun, 26 Mar 2023 00:30 UTC

On 3/25/23 6:45 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
> Well that's a good point because I'm Australian and I have about
> the same lack of apathy towards the 'issue' of gambling machines as
> I do to how social media websites work. In both cases I figure
> everyone has the choice whether they use them or not. I found that
> decision very easy, and have never used either.
You need to expand your thinking.

The problem is when the gambling addict has dependents, and these
dependents are adversely affected. In this scenario, gambling and its
effects on them isn't their choice.

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 by: Computer Nerd Kev - Sun, 26 Mar 2023 03:23 UTC

D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote:
> On 3/25/23 6:45 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>
>> Well that's a good point because I'm Australian and I have about
>> the same lack of apathy towards the 'issue' of gambling machines as
^^^^^^^
Well done for seeing what I was trying to say in spite of me
accidentally saying the opposite.

>> I do to how social media websites work. In both cases I figure
>> everyone has the choice whether they use them or not. I found that
>> decision very easy, and have never used either.
> You need to expand your thinking.
>
> The problem is when the gambling addict has dependents, and these
> dependents are adversely affected. In this scenario, gambling and its
> effects on them isn't their choice.

That applies to so many things and one draws one's own line
regarding when/how they need to be 'fixed'. Anyway my point with
regard to the AI topic was that AI manipulation of people as a
whole is potentially more powerful in a field such as global
finance, compared to gambling and social media which affect just
a sub-set of those also affected by the former.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Mike Spencer - Tue, 18 Apr 2023 20:16 UTC

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:

> On 23 Mar 2023 16:19:18 -0300
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Obviously one can't know how much more advanced may be stuff which
>>> companies , 3 letter agencies , etc. , keep secret but this applies to
>>> anything technology related even if it started out in the open.
>>
>> Yes, just so. But TLAs and megacorps will be pursuing channels that
>> offer a promise of serving their own specific goals -- surveillance,
>> power, profit, shareholder value, whatever.
>
> Just as they always have. But from other parts of your post and a subsequent
> post I think you're worried that the new AIs will be especially effective at
> it. Do you have any specific reason or is it just a general concern ?

Sorry for the delayed reply.

Specific reason but imprecisely defined. NNs can extract patterns
from massive data that are poorly- or un-detectable by humans. Early
shots at NNs, before we started calling them AI, could detect (sorry I
don't have the reference) cardiopathology from EKG data slightly
better than trained cardiologists. It's a general concern that there
might exist triggers (loopholes, attack points,
Rump-Titty-Titty-Tum-TAH-Tee vulnerabilities, whatever) but a specific
reason that *if* there are, vast NNs may identify them. It follows that
the owners of the NN soft & hardware will exploit them to their own
ends. 21st c. media makes it possible such an effort at exploitation
could be deployed to hundreds of millions of people in a negligibly
short period of time.

> When it comes to influencing human behaviour , television has been very
> effective and television advertising in particular. But ultimately I haven't
> heard anyone claim that television advertising has done a huge harm to
> society.

How old are you? That's not a condescending sneer. There has been
lots of talk about the harm of TV ads and the TV phenomenon itself.
But we've stopped talking about TV for the last 20 or more years.
F'rg zample, circa 1990, the average TV-watching time for Americans
was ca. 24 hours/week. That's more than weekly classroom hours for a
university STEM student. There was, before the net and social media,
a lot of talk about the harm of TV & TV ads [1] but TV was so utterly
ubiquitous and so viscerally integrated into almost everybody's lives
that it as widely ignored or derided.

>>>> They would not be happy were emerging AI entities to have a deep
>>>> personal commitment to resolving everything with charity or
>>>> potlatch as the foundational principles.
>>>
>>> Regarding which politics AI will support , I expect pretty much the whole
>>> spectrum covered by human opinions will eventually be covered. So there
>>> will be "right wing" AIs (chatbots) trained with right wing material ,
>>> left wing AIs trained with left wing material , fascist AIs , racist AIs ,
>>> etc. , all trained with the appropriate source material. I'm actually
>>> curious how it will play out. For example how well will AIs do with
>>> demagoguery or manipulating emotions for political ends ?

We don't actually know how that works. We don't know how a repellent
natural person can exhibit charisma.

>> It remains a mystery and object of heated social psychology research
>> how it is that someone like Hitler or Mussolini or, for that matter,
>> the leaders of more recent politics or much smaller cults can entrain
>> the minds of numerous people almost as if (again metaphorically) he
>> had hit on the resonant frequency of many otherwise heterogeneous
>> people. The threat -- or at least one of the threats -- of AI is that
>> such triggers or resonant frequencies can be detected and isolated by
>> a NN and embodied in language (or other media) that coerces the public
>> to the ends of corporations, TLAs or whoever it is that pays for and
>> deploys the AI tech. Ideology per se is a side issue to massively
>> manipulating people to ends not their own.
>
> So the question becomes to what extent Hitler or Mussolini were effective
> because
> 1. The social conditions and pervasive ideologies were ripe.
> or
> 2. Their rhetoric was effective.
> or
> 3. Their overall presentation was effective.
> or
> 4. Other reasons.

No, none of those addresses the neurological mechanisms, especially
those on the liminal borderland between wetware and language.
Sociology and political science operate and observe far above that
level but neural nets operate far below it.

> There is also a philosophical issue : "manipulating" suggests an
> inappropriate or illegitimate or something like that way of
> influencing people. But which are the legitimate vs illegitimate
> ways of influencing people politically ? That's a huge discussion
> and not for this group but I see no reason to think that an AI will
> be more likely to use illegitimate ways of influencing people
> compared to what humans have been using for ever.

Far below the level of politics are the neural mechanisms. NNs may be
able to detect mechanisms analogous to (not just metaphorically
"like") drug addiction. If people can be remotely triggered into
states isomorphic with addiction, that would be illegitimate
influence. AIUI, the designers of slot machines, video games and
social media GUIs already strive, using all the scientific tools they
can muster, to engender just such an addictive response. There's a
growing perception that this is engendering a massive, albeit as yet
poorly defined, social disruption.

[1] E.g., Arguments for the Elimination of Television, Jerry Mander, 1978.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Sun, 23 Apr 2023 19:47 UTC

On 18 Apr 2023 17:16:23 -0300
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:
> > Just as they always have. But from other parts of your post and a subsequent
> > post I think you're worried that the new AIs will be especially effective at
> > it. Do you have any specific reason or is it just a general concern ?
>
> Sorry for the delayed reply.
>
> Specific reason but imprecisely defined. NNs can extract patterns
> from massive data that are poorly- or un-detectable by humans. Early
> shots at NNs, before we started calling them AI, could detect (sorry I
> don't have the reference) cardiopathology from EKG data slightly
> better than trained cardiologists. It's a general concern that there
> might exist triggers (loopholes, attack points,
> Rump-Titty-Titty-Tum-TAH-Tee vulnerabilities, whatever) but a specific
> reason that *if* there are, vast NNs may identify them. It follows that
> the owners of the NN soft & hardware will exploit them to their own
> ends. 21st c. media makes it possible such an effort at exploitation
> could be deployed to hundreds of millions of people in a negligibly
> short period of time.

So your "specific" reason is that NNs are better than humans at detecting
patterns so perhaps they will detect better ways to do bad things like create
addictions. Yes but perhaps instead they will detect patterns to do good
things like cure diseases or create practical fusion based nuclear energy. Do
you have any reason to think that the bad things (or specifically addictions)
are more likely than any of the many good things one can imagine ?

> > When it comes to influencing human behaviour , television has been very
> > effective and television advertising in particular. But ultimately I haven't
> > heard anyone claim that television advertising has done a huge harm to
> > society.
>
> How old are you? That's not a condescending sneer. There has been
> lots of talk about the harm of TV ads and the TV phenomenon itself.
> But we've stopped talking about TV for the last 20 or more years.
> F'rg zample, circa 1990, the average TV-watching time for Americans
> was ca. 24 hours/week. That's more than weekly classroom hours for a
> university STEM student. There was, before the net and social media,
> a lot of talk about the harm of TV & TV ads [1] but TV was so utterly
> ubiquitous and so viscerally integrated into almost everybody's lives
> that it as widely ignored or derided.

Either young enough to not have come across it or old enough to have
forgotten it :-D I don't see the point of comparing the time spent watching
TV vs the time spent doing some other "worthy" activity like attending
university classes. Bottom line is people make their decisions. There is such
a thing as alcoholic anonymous but I haven't heard of any "TV addicts
anonymous" which suggests that , even if it causes addiction in some people ,
it's not a big problem. Television can be avoided easily enough , at worst it
means not having one in one's home. And there are rules in place like no
television advertising aimed at kids within certain time periods.

You talk below about "social disruption". A technology which caused a huge
social disruption is automobiles. Compared with television , they are much
worse. They have killed and injured a large number of people. Unless one
moves into a rural area , automobiles and their effects cannot be avoided.
One can choose not to drive and perhaps not even ride one but they still have
to cope with noise , pollution and the possibility of being hit by one. But
basically society has made a decision that the goods outweigh the bads. I
don't see why society wouldn't make similar decisions for the effects of AIs.
One might not agree with the decisions which will be made but hardly any
political decision meets with unanimous approval.

> > There is also a philosophical issue : "manipulating" suggests an
> > inappropriate or illegitimate or something like that way of
> > influencing people. But which are the legitimate vs illegitimate
> > ways of influencing people politically ? That's a huge discussion
> > and not for this group but I see no reason to think that an AI will
> > be more likely to use illegitimate ways of influencing people
> > compared to what humans have been using for ever.
>
> Far below the level of politics are the neural mechanisms. NNs may be
> able to detect mechanisms analogous to (not just metaphorically
> "like") drug addiction. If people can be remotely triggered into
> states isomorphic with addiction, that would be illegitimate
> influence. AIUI, the designers of slot machines, video games and
> social media GUIs already strive, using all the scientific tools they
> can muster, to engender just such an addictive response. There's a
> growing perception that this is engendering a massive, albeit as yet
> poorly defined, social disruption.

Ok , addictive behaviour is certainly illegitimate influence. But if
people get addicted , it will be noticed and hopefully some rules will
be put into place. Rules have been put in place for other kinds of addiction
(like cigarette advertising) so I don't see why one cannot be cautiously
optimistic regarding the effects of AI.

This discussion has made me wonder though whether AI will be used for usenet
trolling. People certainly have triggers on usenet (for comp* related , a
typical example would be <programming language A vs programming language B>)
and an AI which is sufficiently well tuned and trained , may be able to keep
such discussions (flamewars) going indefinitely.

> [1] E.g., Arguments for the Elimination of Television, Jerry Mander, 1978.

--
BUGS
The source code is not comprehensible.
man telnet

Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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From: mds...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere (Mike Spencer)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
Date: 25 Apr 2023 01:30:07 -0300
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 by: Mike Spencer - Tue, 25 Apr 2023 04:30 UTC

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:

> On 18 Apr 2023 17:16:23 -0300
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Just as they always have. But from other parts of your post and a
>>> subsequent post I think you're worried that the new AIs will be
>>> especially effective at it. Do you have any specific reason or is
>>> it just a general concern ?
>>
>> Sorry for the delayed reply.
>>
>> Specific reason but imprecisely defined. NNs can extract patterns
>> from massive data that are poorly- or un-detectable by humans. Early
>> shots at NNs, before we started calling them AI, could detect (sorry I
>> don't have the reference) cardiopathology from EKG data slightly
>> better than trained cardiologists. It's a general concern that there
>> might exist triggers (loopholes, attack points,
>> Rump-Titty-Titty-Tum-TAH-Tee vulnerabilities, whatever) but a specific
>> reason that *if* there are, vast NNs may identify them. It follows that
>> the owners of the NN soft & hardware will exploit them to their own
>> ends. 21st c. media makes it possible such an effort at exploitation
>> could be deployed to hundreds of millions of people in a negligibly
>> short period of time.
>
> So your "specific" reason is that NNs are better than humans at
> detecting patterns so perhaps they will detect better ways to do bad
> things like create addictions.

Fair summary. Maybe astonishing things the effect of which, when
employed to nefarious ends, may be irreversible (see "deployed to
hundreds of millions of people" above).

Humans are already getting pretty good at nefarious with contemporary
mass and social media...

Here is the "Tucker Carlson Tonight" playbook: Go straight for the
third rail, be it race, immigration or another hot-button issue;
harvest the inevitable backlash; return the next evening to skewer
critics for how they responded. Then, do it all again. This
feedback loop drove up ratings and boosted loyalty to Fox and
Mr. Carlson.
-- Nicholas Confessore, NYT, 30 Apr 2022

....aided by an unknown (to me anyhow) degree by (more or less) AI
software -- how "algorithms" has become a bogeyman word.

> Yes but perhaps instead they will detect patterns to do good things
> like cure diseases or create practical fusion based nuclear energy.

Yes, of course. Project CETI (https://www.projectceti.org/) and the
work AI people will on the data the collect is enormously exciting.
The potential in medicine is similar for more practical reasons.

> Do you have any reason to think that the bad things (or specifically
> addictions) are more likely than any of the many good things one can
> imagine ?

Sure. Those reasons are somewhat fragmentary as I'm not a polymath
with fully informed insight into everything.

Is curing patients a sustainable business model?
-- Goldman Sachs research report, 2019

If Goldman or an entity it's advising owns the AI, something else will
be the business model.

>>> When it comes to influencing human behaviour , television has been
>>> very effective and television advertising in particular. But
>>> ultimately I haven't heard anyone claim that television
>>> advertising has done a huge harm to society.
>>
>> How old are you? That's not a condescending sneer. There has been
>> lots of talk about the harm of TV ads and the TV phenomenon itself.
>> But we've stopped talking about TV for the last 20 or more years.
>> F'rg zample, circa 1990, the average TV-watching time for Americans
>> was ca. 24 hours/week. That's more than weekly classroom hours for a
>> university STEM student. There was, before the net and social media,
>> a lot of talk about the harm of TV & TV ads [1] but TV was so utterly
>> ubiquitous and so viscerally integrated into almost everybody's lives
>> that it as widely ignored or derided.
>
> Either young enough to not have come across it or old enough to have
> forgotten it :-D I don't see the point of comparing the time spent
> watching TV vs the time spent doing some other "worthy" activity
> like attending university classes.

If you spend 24 hours a week coding (YADATROT) for 10 years, the
inside of your head is going to be a very different place than what it
would be had you devoted the same hours to anything on TV. The author
of [1] devotes one chapter to probably kook material but he makes a
point that watching TV engenders a sort of trance state that tends to
uncouple rational attention. I think you should reflect further on
the subject.

But that's a digression. The point is that both TV and interactive
social media have captured a significant fraction of attention time
for a large number of people.

> You talk below about "social disruption". A technology which caused a huge
> social disruption is automobiles. Compared with television , they are much
> worse. They have killed and injured a large number of people.
> [snip bad stuff auto do]

Yeah, quite true. But that's a red herring. We're over 120 years in
on autos. And arguable their worst effect is to have engendered
massive concentrations of money and corporate power over that time.

>>> There is also a philosophical issue : "manipulating" suggests an
>>> inappropriate or illegitimate or something like that way of
>>> influencing people. But which are the legitimate vs illegitimate
>>> ways of influencing people politically ? That's a huge discussion
>>> and not for this group but I see no reason to think that an AI will
>>> be more likely to use illegitimate ways of influencing people
>>> compared to what humans have been using for ever.
>>
>> Far below the level of politics are the neural mechanisms. NNs may be
>> able to detect mechanisms analogous to (not just metaphorically
>> "like") drug addiction. If people can be remotely triggered into
>> states isomorphic with addiction, that would be illegitimate
>> influence. AIUI, the designers of slot machines, video games and
>> social media GUIs already strive, using all the scientific tools they
>> can muster, to engender just such an addictive response. There's a
>> growing perception that this is engendering a massive, albeit as yet
>> poorly defined, social disruption.
>
> Ok , addictive behaviour is certainly illegitimate influence. But if
> people get addicted , it will be noticed and hopefully some rules will
> be put into place.

Not very readily in the USA. Back on topic here, the headline AI
instances are about language. If your tool to engender obsession in
the public is language, a constitutional freedom of speech defense
bats last.

> Rules have been put in place for other kinds of addiction (like
> cigarette advertising) so I don't see why one cannot be cautiously
> optimistic regarding the effects of AI.

Try obsessive-compulsive instead of addictive. "Addiction" that is not
chemical in the same way that opiates are is really a misleading
metaphor for other neural/psychological phenomena similar in
appearance but different in mechanism.

> This discussion has made me wonder though whether AI will be used
> for usenet trolling. People certainly have triggers on usenet (for
> comp* related , a typical example would be <programming language A
> vs programming language B>) and an AI which is sufficiently well
> tuned and trained , may be able to keep such discussions (flamewars)
> going indefinitely.

Why limit it to Usenet? We've heard recently about court filings
specifically contrived to trigger outrage and "own the libs". There's
a credible inference that the Russians contrived to flood social media
with posts that would troll the undecided right to vote for TFG.

>> [1] E.g., Arguments for the Elimination of Television, Jerry Mander, 1978.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: Life hack to discern AI posts from genuine humans!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 10:53:06 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Tue, 25 Apr 2023 10:53 UTC

On 25 Apr 2023 01:30:07 -0300
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:
> > So your "specific" reason is that NNs are better than humans at
> > detecting patterns so perhaps they will detect better ways to do bad
> > things like create addictions.
>
> Fair summary. Maybe astonishing things the effect of which, when
> employed to nefarious ends, may be irreversible (see "deployed to
> hundreds of millions of people" above).
>
> Humans are already getting pretty good at nefarious with contemporary
> mass and social media...
>
> Here is the "Tucker Carlson Tonight" playbook: Go straight for the
> third rail, be it race, immigration or another hot-button issue;
> harvest the inevitable backlash; return the next evening to skewer
> critics for how they responded. Then, do it all again. This
> feedback loop drove up ratings and boosted loyalty to Fox and
> Mr. Carlson.
> -- Nicholas Confessore, NYT, 30 Apr 2022
>
>
> ...aided by an unknown (to me anyhow) degree by (more or less) AI
> software -- how "algorithms" has become a bogeyman word.

[...]

> > Do you have any reason to think that the bad things (or specifically
> > addictions) are more likely than any of the many good things one can
> > imagine ?
>
> Sure. Those reasons are somewhat fragmentary as I'm not a polymath
> with fully informed insight into everything.
>
> Is curing patients a sustainable business model?
> -- Goldman Sachs research report, 2019
>
> If Goldman or an entity it's advising owns the AI, something else will
> be the business model.

But the quote you provide doesn't even give an answer. It could be "yes" for
all I know. Anyway , to keep it on topic , some companies who own or use the
AI will have some other business model (or goals) instead of healthcare. So ?
Do you have any reason to think that AIs will push things towards less
healthcare than what is available now ?

> > Either young enough to not have come across it or old enough to have
> > forgotten it :-D I don't see the point of comparing the time spent
> > watching TV vs the time spent doing some other "worthy" activity
> > like attending university classes.
>
> If you spend 24 hours a week coding (YADATROT) for 10 years, the
> inside of your head is going to be a very different place than what it
> would be had you devoted the same hours to anything on TV. The author
> of [1] devotes one chapter to probably kook material but he makes a
> point that watching TV engenders a sort of trance state that tends to
> uncouple rational attention. I think you should reflect further on
> the subject.
>
> But that's a digression. The point is that both TV and interactive
> social media have captured a significant fraction of attention time
> for a large number of people.

Yes and those people presumably made a choice. You or me may think that
they made a poor choice but it was their choice and also we have no way
of knowing what their choice(s) would have been if television and social
media were not available.

> > Ok , addictive behaviour is certainly illegitimate influence. But if
> > people get addicted , it will be noticed and hopefully some rules will
> > be put into place.
>
> Not very readily in the USA.

Readily or not it has happened at least for casinos as I mentioned in
<87CvAnhG6LtvmMnrT@bongo-ra.co> .But lets imagine a demagogue politician. He
could deliver a speech that personal responsibility and freedom are top
priority and that no such rules should be in place or he could deliver a
speech about lives which have been destroyed from (gambling) addiction and
that something should be done about it. And the same politician could use an
AI to prepare *either* kind of speech if it turns out that AIs are better at
it than humans. There's no reason to think that AIs will serve better one end
of the debate than another and the same goes for any other political debate.
So AIs will be just another tool for people to fight their (political)
corner.

> Back on topic here, the headline AI
> instances are about language. If your tool to engender obsession in
> the public is language, a constitutional freedom of speech defense
> bats last.

In U.S.A.

> > Rules have been put in place for other kinds of addiction (like
> > cigarette advertising) so I don't see why one cannot be cautiously
> > optimistic regarding the effects of AI.
>
> Try obsessive-compulsive instead of addictive. "Addiction" that is not
> chemical in the same way that opiates are is really a misleading
> metaphor for other neural/psychological phenomena similar in
> appearance but different in mechanism.
>
> > This discussion has made me wonder though whether AI will be used
> > for usenet trolling. People certainly have triggers on usenet (for
> > comp* related , a typical example would be <programming language A
> > vs programming language B>) and an AI which is sufficiently well
> > tuned and trained , may be able to keep such discussions (flamewars)
> > going indefinitely.
>
> Why limit it to Usenet? We've heard recently about court filings
> specifically contrived to trigger outrage and "own the libs".

I haven't heard of them but then I don't follow the news much and I don't
even know which country you are referring to. If it's topical , please
give details.

> There's
> a credible inference that the Russians contrived to flood social media
> with posts that would troll the undecided right to vote for TFG.

Is TFG Trump ? Anyway , people have been using language to influence or
manipulate political behaviour for millennia. For example that's what
ancient Greek rhetors specialised at. So your concern is that there may
be some much more effective way of using speech to influence behaviour
than what humans have discovered so far and that AIs may discover it.

I find this unlikely. AIs can manage much greater quantity and persistence
than humans but the idea that for a fixed quantity of speech (oral or
written) , AIs will be more effective than humans , I don't think so. My
reasoning is that we are a social species (like most primates) and our ways
of influencing the behaviour of other members of the tribe have developed
over millions of years of evolution (some before even we became human) so
they should be pretty stable. They may evolve more over long periods but
that's not your worry here. So I don't think there are any great secrets
of influencing which have yet to be discovered. You say that you are worried
about mass delivery. Ok , mass delivery may be an issue but it is mass
communication (first newspapers , then radio , then television , then the
internet) which allowed mass delivery rather than AIs .And the trend with
the internet is more pluralism rather than what has been possible with
earlier mass media.

> >> [1] E.g., Arguments for the Elimination of Television, Jerry Mander, 1978.

--
I turn away in fright and horror from this lamentable
plague of functions that do not have derivatives.
C. Hermite, 1893

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