Some of you may be interested in this VAXstation 4000/90 that I put up for sale on eBay. There are only 10 hours left in the auction but I'll relist it if I don't get at least $4,200. You can buy it for $5,500. Thanks!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295043515418

-Jake Hamby

On 06/23/22 20:12, Jake Hamby wrote:
> Some of you may be interested in this VAXstation 4000/90 that I put up for sale on eBay. There are only 10 hours left in the auction but I'll relist it if I don't get at least $4,200. You can buy it for $5,500. Thanks!
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/295043515418
>
> -Jake Hamby

There's optimism for you :-)...

Chris

On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, chris wrote:
> On 06/23/22 20:12, Jake Hamby wrote:
> > Some of you may be interested in this VAXstation 4000/90 that I put up for sale on eBay. There are only 10 hours left in the auction but I'll relist it if I don't get at least $4,200. You can buy it for $5,500. Thanks!
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/295043515418
> >
> > -Jake Hamby
> There's optimism for you :-)...
>
> Chris

Wow.
Just wow.
Of course a VAX4000/90 is a rare and interesting beastie, but a unicorn it is not.
I wish Sir Jake success on his quest.

Crabs

Crabs wrote:

> Wow.
> Just wow.
> Of course a VAX4000/90 is a rare and interesting beastie, but a unicorn it is not.

Double Wow!

<https://www.ebay.com/itm/255451233821?orig_cvip=true&hash=item3b7a147e1d%3Ag%3ARisAAOSwYJdgjGPN#LeftSummaryPanel>

In article <jhlgo7Fph02U2@mid.individual.net>, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:
>Crabs wrote:
>
>> Wow.
>> Just wow.
>> Of course a VAX4000/90 is a rare and interesting beastie, but a unicorn it is not.
>
>Double Wow!
>
><https://www.ebay.com/itm/255451233821?orig_cvip=true&hash=item3b7a147e1d%3Ag%3ARisAAOSwYJdgjGPN#LeftSummaryPanel>

I'll have to watch this to see if they can sell it for that price. If so,
I got a few I'd unload for half that price.

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Andy Burns writes:
>
>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/255451233821?orig_cvip=true&hash=item3b7a147e1d%3Ag%3ARisAAOSwYJdgjGPN#LeftSummaryPanel>
>
> I'll have to watch this to see if they can sell it for that price. If so,
> I got a few I'd unload for half that price.

That *is* the sold price.

On 6/24/2022 8:33 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> Andy Burns writes:
>>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/255451233821?orig_cvip=true&hash=item3b7a147e1d%3Ag%3ARisAAOSwYJdgjGPN#LeftSummaryPanel>
>>
>> I'll have to watch this to see if they can sell it for that price.  If
>> so,
>> I got a few I'd unload for half that price.
>
> That *is* the sold price.

Sounds like those with a large stash of VAXes will soon be
cruising around in a Rolls Royce or Bentley.

:-)

Arne

On 6/24/2022 8:41 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 6/24/2022 8:33 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> Andy Burns writes:
>>>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/255451233821?orig_cvip=true&hash=item3b7a147e1d%3Ag%3ARisAAOSwYJdgjGPN#LeftSummaryPanel>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'll have to watch this to see if they can sell it for that price. If so,
>>> I got a few I'd unload for half that price.
>>
>> That *is* the sold price.
>
> Sounds like those with a large stash of VAXes will soon be
> cruising around in a Rolls Royce or Bentley.
>
> :-)
>
> Arne
>

That link says it is a model 96, the latest of the VAXstation 4000 line.

I've got 2 90A, a 90, and a 60. Got to wonder what they might sell for. But, I
really don't want to sell the 2 90A systems.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 6/24/22 09:08, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 6/24/2022 8:41 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 6/24/2022 8:33 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> Andy Burns writes:
>>>>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/255451233821?orig_cvip=true&hash=item3b7a147e1d%3Ag%3ARisAAOSwYJdgjGPN#LeftSummaryPanel>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'll have to watch this to see if they can sell it for that price.
>>>> If so,
>>>> I got a few I'd unload for half that price.
>>>
>>> That *is* the sold price.
>>
>> Sounds like those with a large stash of VAXes will soon be
>> cruising around in a Rolls Royce or Bentley.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Arne
>>
>
> That link says it is a model 96, the latest of the VAXstation 4000 line.
>
> I've got 2 90A, a 90, and a 60.  Got to wonder what they might sell
> for.  But, I really don't want to sell the 2 90A systems.
>

And to think I gave mine away!!!
Could really use that money about now....

bill

On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 9:53:30 AM UTC-4, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 6/24/22 09:08, Dave Froble wrote:
> > On 6/24/2022 8:41 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> On 6/24/2022 8:33 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> >>> VAX...@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>>> Andy Burns writes:
> >>>>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/255451233821?orig_cvip=true&hash=item3b7a147e1d%3Ag%3ARisAAOSwYJdgjGPN#LeftSummaryPanel>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll have to watch this to see if they can sell it for that price.
> >>>> If so,
> >>>> I got a few I'd unload for half that price.
> >>>
> >>> That *is* the sold price.
> >>
> >> Sounds like those with a large stash of VAXes will soon be
> >> cruising around in a Rolls Royce or Bentley.
> >>
> >> :-)
> >>
> >> Arne
> >>
> >
> > That link says it is a model 96, the latest of the VAXstation 4000 line..
> >
> > I've got 2 90A, a 90, and a 60. Got to wonder what they might sell
> > for. But, I really don't want to sell the 2 90A systems.
> >
> And to think I gave mine away!!!
> Could really use that money about now....
>
> bill
Yeah, I had a model 96 at home but I didn't want it and dumped it into a D-container at ZKO when
Digital/Compaq were leaving the buildings on our way to Marlborough.

On 2022-06-24, John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I had a model 96 at home but I didn't want it and dumped it into a D-container at ZKO when
> Digital/Compaq were leaving the buildings on our way to Marlborough.

I wonder what the market is for something that sells for that price
in 2022.

I could understand a server with an old DEC bus to support some realtime
interface cards (for example), but that's a generic (and slow by today's
standards) workstation.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:
> John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yeah, I had a model 96 at home but I didn't want it and dumped it
>> into a D-container at ZKO when Digital/Compaq were leaving
>> the buildings on our way to Marlborough.
>
> I wonder what the market is for something that sells for that price
> in 2022.
>
> I could understand a server with an old DEC bus to support some realtime
> interface cards (for example), but that's a generic (and slow by today's
> standards) workstation. Simon.

Hey, if NFTs can sell for $91.8million,
https://www.business2community.com/nft/most-expensive-nft
and an actress can earn $200,000 selling her farts,
https://www.insider.com/reality-star-made-200k-fart-jars-selling-them-as-nfts-2022-1
then I'd say $4200 for a 4000/90 (or even a 4000/30 for that matter)
is pretty darn reasonable.
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

On 28/06/2022 08:47, John Forkosh wrote:
> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:
>> John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Yeah, I had a model 96 at home but I didn't want it and dumped it
>>> into a D-container at ZKO when Digital/Compaq were leaving
>>> the buildings on our way to Marlborough.
>>
>> I wonder what the market is for something that sells for that price
>> in 2022.
>>
>> I could understand a server with an old DEC bus to support some realtime
>> interface cards (for example), but that's a generic (and slow by today's
>> standards) workstation. Simon.
>
> Hey, if NFTs can sell for $91.8million,
> https://www.business2community.com/nft/most-expensive-nft
> and an actress can earn $200,000 selling her farts,
> https://www.insider.com/reality-star-made-200k-fart-jars-selling-them-as-nfts-2022-1
> then I'd say $4200 for a 4000/90 (or even a 4000/30 for that matter)
> is pretty darn reasonable.

I have a 3100/90 (or perhaps /80 can't remember) if anybody wants to buy
it - in the UK

Perhaps offers about £1000 :)

--
Chris

Follow-up: I got the $4,200 that I'd hoped for, from a company in Encino, CA, who picked it up from me and will be using it with clients who are still using VAXstations and have support contracts for VMS.

The guy who picked it up asked if I had any other DEC equipment, and where I'd gotten it from (my personal collection). I'm going to contact him to see if they might need any VMS software experts on retainer for those customers.

He didn't seem interested in my VAXstation 4000 VLC, nor did I expect him to be, and I'm keeping the Alpha and Itanium gear for now. :)

Cheers,
Jake

On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 1:00:16 PM UTC-4, jake....@gmail.com wrote:
> Follow-up: I got the $4,200 that I'd hoped for, from a company in Encino, CA, who picked it up from me and will be using it with clients who are still using VAXstations and have support contracts for VMS.
>
> The guy who picked it up asked if I had any other DEC equipment, and where I'd gotten it from (my personal collection). I'm going to contact him to see if they might need any VMS software experts on retainer for those customers.
>
> He didn't seem interested in my VAXstation 4000 VLC, nor did I expect him to be, and I'm keeping the Alpha and Itanium gear for now. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Jake
Jake,

If this company is looking for more VAX related (Alpha and IA64 too) hardware, please have them contact me with HARDWARE in the subject line at the Email below. I have quite a bit of stuff to clean out. I am downsizing my lab and have quite a bit of hardware available.

Thanks,
Dan

Email: DansABRServices@yahoo.com

On 6/29/2022 1:05 PM, abrsvc wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 1:00:16 PM UTC-4, jake....@gmail.com wrote:
>> Follow-up: I got the $4,200 that I'd hoped for, from a company in Encino, CA, who picked it up from me and will be using it with clients who are still using VAXstations and have support contracts for VMS.
>>
>> The guy who picked it up asked if I had any other DEC equipment, and where I'd gotten it from (my personal collection). I'm going to contact him to see if they might need any VMS software experts on retainer for those customers.
>>
>> He didn't seem interested in my VAXstation 4000 VLC, nor did I expect him to be, and I'm keeping the Alpha and Itanium gear for now. :)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jake
> Jake,
>
> If this company is looking for more VAX related (Alpha and IA64 too) hardware, please have them contact me with HARDWARE in the subject line at the Email below. I have quite a bit of stuff to clean out. I am downsizing my lab and have quite a bit of hardware available.
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
> Email: DansABRServices@yahoo.com
>

Same for me. Contact info below. My days working with VMS, and computers in
general, seem to be coming to an end.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 6/29/2022 3:28 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>   My days working with VMS, and
> computers in general, seem to be coming to an end.

What??

We expect you to stick around for a few more decades!

Arne

On 6/29/2022 3:36 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 6/29/2022 3:28 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> My days working with VMS, and computers in
>> general, seem to be coming to an end.
>
> What??
>
> We expect you to stick around for a few more decades!
>
> Arne
>
>

Erik (the boss) is 80, I'm 76, Bill in early 70s, and Niel is late 60s, and
really want to retire.

We made a pitch to the customers. Buy the software package, and we will give
you a year or whatever we can to train new people. They said they didn't want
to be in the software business. (Almost every business for the last 30-40 years
has been in the software business, in some way.)

Largest customer, now being run by original owner's children, had their auditors
come in, and were told:

You can't use that ancient OS (VMS) ...
You can't continue with that ancient language (Basic) ...
You need a relational database ...
And a few more ridiculous claims ...
Above all, "you can't count on these old geezers" ...

They refused to give them a successful audit ...

Can't purchase business insurance without successful audit ...

Then they pointed out a company with a cloud based solution for the customer to
talk to. Too bad they didn't mention that the company was a wholely owned
subsidiary of the auditing firm.

:-)

The app uses a single connection to the cloud. There is inadequate throughput.
It is slow. Every time the customer asks for a feature in Codis, they are told
that cannot be done. After several postponements, the customer went live on the
cloud solution. They are missing many features they counted on. The system is
inadequate. For example, (Bill likes to gather statistics), max orders from
Amazon have hit 100 per minute. The new system is lucky to handle 5 Amazon
orders per minute. Most people aware of this are predicting that they're going
to crater. There is also the penalties from Amazon if a vendor does not perform
as agreed.

This customer might have spent a million over the last 30 years on Codis.
Already they have spent over 5 million trying to get the new cloud based
working, and it isn't doing so well.

We have continually offered to help. Other customers are looking at the
clusterfuck, and are re-thinking about being in the software business. Codis
does all they need to run their companies. The main problem is the age of the
people involved. We'd really like to do something about that, but if we could,
we'd be rich and in the medical field, not software.

Erik has told the customers, the company is shutting down at the end of 2023.
We'd like to continue, but we can't make any promises. We will do what we can.
But if the beer truck gets us ...

We have told the customers:

VSI is currently supporting VMS, and porting it to x86 ...
VSI is currently (I hope John) supporting Basic ...
The auditing firm is a bunch of crooks ...

The names were changed to protect the guilty ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 6/29/22 22:01, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 6/29/2022 3:36 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 6/29/2022 3:28 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>                                   My days working with VMS, and
>>> computers in
>>> general, seem to be coming to an end.
>>
>> What??
>>
>> We expect you to stick around for a few more decades!
>>
>> Arne
>>
>>
>
> Erik (the boss) is 80, I'm 76, Bill in early 70s, and Niel is late 60s,
> and really want to retire.
>
> We made a pitch to the customers.  Buy the software package, and we will
> give you a year or whatever we can to train new people.  They said they
> didn't want to be in the software business.  (Almost every business for
> the last 30-40 years has been in the software business, in some way.)
>
> Largest customer, now being run by original owner's children, had their
> auditors come in, and were told:
>
> You can't use that ancient OS (VMS) ...
> You can't continue with that ancient language (Basic) ...
> You need a relational database ...
> And a few more ridiculous claims ...
> Above all, "you can't count on these old geezers" ...
>
> They refused to give them a successful audit ...
>
> Can't purchase business insurance without successful audit ...
>
> Then they pointed out a company with a cloud based solution for the
> customer to talk to.  Too bad they didn't mention that the company was a
> wholely owned subsidiary of the auditing firm.
>
> :-)
>
> The app uses a single connection to the cloud.  There is inadequate
> throughput. It is slow.  Every time the customer asks for a feature in
> Codis, they are told that cannot be done.  After several postponements,
> the customer went live on the cloud solution.  They are missing many
> features they counted on.  The system is inadequate.  For example, (Bill
> likes to gather statistics), max orders from Amazon have hit 100 per
> minute.  The new system is lucky to handle 5 Amazon orders per minute.
> Most people aware of this are predicting that they're going to crater.
> There is also the penalties from Amazon if a vendor does not perform as
> agreed.
>
> This customer might have spent a million over the last 30 years on
> Codis. Already they have spent over 5 million trying to get the new
> cloud based working, and it isn't doing so well.
>
> We have continually offered to help.  Other customers are looking at the
> clusterfuck, and are re-thinking about being in the software business.
> Codis does all they need to run their companies.  The main problem is
> the age of the people involved.  We'd really like to do something about
> that, but if we could, we'd be rich and in the medical field, not software.
>
> Erik has told the customers, the company is shutting down at the end of
> 2023. We'd like to continue, but we can't make any promises.  We will do
> what we can. But if the beer truck gets us ...
>
> We have told the customers:
>
> VSI is currently supporting VMS, and porting it to x86 ...
> VSI is currently (I hope John) supporting Basic ...
> The auditing firm is a bunch of crooks ...
>
> The names were changed to protect the guilty ...
>

Should have used COBOL. Then they could move to z/OS and DB2.
DB2 meet the relational database requirement. And z/OS, well,
nobody ever got fired for going with IBM. :-)

bill

(Still time to do the conversion. :-)

On 6/30/2022 9:02 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> Should have used COBOL.  Then they could move to z/OS and DB2.
> DB2 meet the relational database requirement.  And z/OS, well,
> nobody ever got fired for going with IBM.   :-)

VMS Cobol -> something else Cobol is undoubtetly easier than
VMS Basic -> something else Basic.

But people are moving off z/OS not on z/OS.

And even though nobody got fired for choosing IBM
40 years ago, then the world is different today.

Today the nobody get fired solution is more
like Kubernetes and Linux in AWS/Azure/GCP.

Arne

On 6/29/2022 10:01 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> Erik (the boss) is 80, I'm 76, Bill in early 70s, and Niel is late 60s,
> and really want to retire.
>
> We made a pitch to the customers.  Buy the software package, and we will
> give you a year or whatever we can to train new people.  They said they
> didn't want to be in the software business.  (Almost every business for
> the last 30-40 years has been in the software business, in some way.)
>
> Largest customer, now being run by original owner's children, had their
> auditors come in, and were told:
>
> You can't use that ancient OS (VMS) ...
> You can't continue with that ancient language (Basic) ...
> You need a relational database ...
> And a few more ridiculous claims ...
> Above all, "you can't count on these old geezers" ...
>
> They refused to give them a successful audit ...
>
> Can't purchase business insurance without successful audit ...

> We have continually offered to help. Other customers are looking at the
> clusterfuck, and are re-thinking about being in the software business.
> Codis does all they need to run their companies. The main problem is
> the age of the people involved. We'd really like to do something about
> that, but if we could, we'd be rich and in the medical field, not
software.
>
> Erik has told the customers, the company is shutting down at the end of
> 2023. We'd like to continue, but we can't make any promises. We will do
> what we can. But if the beer truck gets us ...
>
> We have told the customers:
>
> VSI is currently supporting VMS, and porting it to x86 ...
> VSI is currently (I hope John) supporting Basic ...
> The auditing firm is a bunch of crooks ...

There are some reasons for concerns:
- niche OS (VMS)
- niche language (VMS Basic)
- obsolete language (Macro-32)
- probably non-optimal persistence technology (RMS index-sequential
files aka NoSQL Key Value Store)
- the team getting close to retirement

But it is not an urgent problem:
- all the software is supported and can be expected to be
supported for many years
- the team has not retired yet

What you need is a roadmap showing a long term viable future.

Obviously I don't know the company or the product that well, so this is
pure speculation, but something like:
- keep VMS but switch to VMS x86-64, it is supported and even though
Linux is server OS king today then everybody does not need to run
Linux, working with VMS is a learnable skill (someone that know
Linux should be able to learn VMS in weeks)
- keep VMS Basic, it is supported and a rewrite would cost a lot of
money and create a lot of bugs that would need to be fixed, and
programming in VMS Basic is a learnable skill (someone that
know VB.NET/Delphi/C should be able to learn VMS Basic in a few
months)
- get rid of the Macro-32, rewrite to VMS Basic or C, too difficult to
get people onboarded with Macro-32
- change to a relational database, besides looking better in the audit
report you will actually get some benefits in the form of less code

And hire somebody new. Somebody at least below 50, preferably below 40.
To give some assurance that there will be a team around for a long time.

Maybe do a gradual phase in of more new people:
2022-2023: +1 new
2024-2024: +another new, let 2 of the old switch to part time
2025-2026: +another new, let 2 other old switch to part time

> Then they pointed out a company with a cloud based solution for the
> customer to talk to.  Too bad they didn't mention that the company was a
> wholely owned subsidiary of the auditing firm.
>
> :-)
>
> The app uses a single connection to the cloud.  There is inadequate
> throughput. It is slow.  Every time the customer asks for a feature in
> Codis, they are told that cannot be done.  After several postponements,
> the customer went live on the cloud solution.  They are missing many
> features they counted on.  The system is inadequate.  For example, (Bill
> likes to gather statistics), max orders from Amazon have hit 100 per
> minute.  The new system is lucky to handle 5 Amazon orders per minute.
> Most people aware of this are predicting that they're going to crater.
> There is also the penalties from Amazon if a vendor does not perform as
> agreed.
>
> This customer might have spent a million over the last 30 years on
> Codis. Already they have spent over 5 million trying to get the new
> cloud based working, and it isn't doing so well.

Auditing and other services should not be mixed.

I think that was one of the lessons from Enron!

Arne

Den 2022-06-30 kl. 15:02, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
> On 6/29/22 22:01, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 6/29/2022 3:36 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 6/29/2022 3:28 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>                                   My days working with VMS, and
>>>> computers in
>>>> general, seem to be coming to an end.
>>>
>>> What??
>>>
>>> We expect you to stick around for a few more decades!
>>>
>>> Arne
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Erik (the boss) is 80, I'm 76, Bill in early 70s, and Niel is late 60s,
>> and really want to retire.
>>
>> We made a pitch to the customers.  Buy the software package, and we will
>> give you a year or whatever we can to train new people.  They said they
>> didn't want to be in the software business.  (Almost every business for
>> the last 30-40 years has been in the software business, in some way.)
>>
>> Largest customer, now being run by original owner's children, had their
>> auditors come in, and were told:
>>
>> You can't use that ancient OS (VMS) ...
>> You can't continue with that ancient language (Basic) ...
>> You need a relational database ...
>> And a few more ridiculous claims ...
>> Above all, "you can't count on these old geezers" ...
>>
>> They refused to give them a successful audit ...
>>
>> Can't purchase business insurance without successful audit ...
>>
>> Then they pointed out a company with a cloud based solution for the
>> customer to talk to.  Too bad they didn't mention that the company was a
>> wholely owned subsidiary of the auditing firm.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> The app uses a single connection to the cloud.  There is inadequate
>> throughput. It is slow.  Every time the customer asks for a feature in
>> Codis, they are told that cannot be done.  After several postponements,
>> the customer went live on the cloud solution.  They are missing many
>> features they counted on.  The system is inadequate.  For example, (Bill
>> likes to gather statistics), max orders from Amazon have hit 100 per
>> minute.  The new system is lucky to handle 5 Amazon orders per minute.
>> Most people aware of this are predicting that they're going to crater.
>> There is also the penalties from Amazon if a vendor does not perform as
>> agreed.
>>
>> This customer might have spent a million over the last 30 years on Codis.
>> Already they have spent over 5 million trying to get the new cloud based
>> working, and it isn't doing so well.
>>
>> We have continually offered to help.  Other customers are looking at the
>> clusterfuck, and are re-thinking about being in the software business.
>> Codis does all they need to run their companies.  The main problem is the
>> age of the people involved.  We'd really like to do something about that,
>> but if we could, we'd be rich and in the medical field, not software.
>>
>> Erik has told the customers, the company is shutting down at the end of
>> 2023. We'd like to continue, but we can't make any promises.  We will do
>> what we can. But if the beer truck gets us ...
>>
>> We have told the customers:
>>
>> VSI is currently supporting VMS, and porting it to x86 ...
>> VSI is currently (I hope John) supporting Basic ...
>> The auditing firm is a bunch of crooks ...
>>
>> The names were changed to protect the guilty ...
>>
>
> Should have used COBOL.  Then they could move to z/OS and DB2.
> DB2 meet the relational database requirement.  And z/OS, well,
> nobody ever got fired for going with IBM.   :-)
>
> bill
>
> (Still time to do the conversion.   :-)
>

I think that Davids application runs as a distributed system.
z/OS are usually very centralized systems.

On 6/30/22 11:06, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2022-06-30 kl. 15:02, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>> On 6/29/22 22:01, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 6/29/2022 3:36 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 6/29/2022 3:28 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>                                   My days working with VMS, and
>>>>> computers in
>>>>> general, seem to be coming to an end.
>>>>
>>>> What??
>>>>
>>>> We expect you to stick around for a few more decades!
>>>>
>>>> Arne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Erik (the boss) is 80, I'm 76, Bill in early 70s, and Niel is late
>>> 60s, and really want to retire.
>>>
>>> We made a pitch to the customers.  Buy the software package, and we
>>> will give you a year or whatever we can to train new people.  They
>>> said they didn't want to be in the software business.  (Almost every
>>> business for the last 30-40 years has been in the software business,
>>> in some way.)
>>>
>>> Largest customer, now being run by original owner's children, had
>>> their auditors come in, and were told:
>>>
>>> You can't use that ancient OS (VMS) ...
>>> You can't continue with that ancient language (Basic) ...
>>> You need a relational database ...
>>> And a few more ridiculous claims ...
>>> Above all, "you can't count on these old geezers" ...
>>>
>>> They refused to give them a successful audit ...
>>>
>>> Can't purchase business insurance without successful audit ...
>>>
>>> Then they pointed out a company with a cloud based solution for the
>>> customer to talk to.  Too bad they didn't mention that the company
>>> was a wholely owned subsidiary of the auditing firm.
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> The app uses a single connection to the cloud.  There is inadequate
>>> throughput. It is slow.  Every time the customer asks for a feature
>>> in Codis, they are told that cannot be done.  After several
>>> postponements, the customer went live on the cloud solution.  They
>>> are missing many features they counted on.  The system is
>>> inadequate.  For example, (Bill likes to gather statistics), max
>>> orders from Amazon have hit 100 per minute.  The new system is lucky
>>> to handle 5 Amazon orders per minute. Most people aware of this are
>>> predicting that they're going to crater. There is also the penalties
>>> from Amazon if a vendor does not perform as agreed.
>>>
>>> This customer might have spent a million over the last 30 years on
>>> Codis. Already they have spent over 5 million trying to get the new
>>> cloud based working, and it isn't doing so well.
>>>
>>> We have continually offered to help.  Other customers are looking at
>>> the clusterfuck, and are re-thinking about being in the software
>>> business. Codis does all they need to run their companies.  The main
>>> problem is the age of the people involved.  We'd really like to do
>>> something about that, but if we could, we'd be rich and in the
>>> medical field, not software.
>>>
>>> Erik has told the customers, the company is shutting down at the end
>>> of 2023. We'd like to continue, but we can't make any promises.  We
>>> will do what we can. But if the beer truck gets us ...
>>>
>>> We have told the customers:
>>>
>>> VSI is currently supporting VMS, and porting it to x86 ...
>>> VSI is currently (I hope John) supporting Basic ...
>>> The auditing firm is a bunch of crooks ...
>>>
>>> The names were changed to protect the guilty ...
>>>
>>
>> Should have used COBOL.  Then they could move to z/OS and DB2.
>> DB2 meet the relational database requirement.  And z/OS, well,
>> nobody ever got fired for going with IBM.   :-)
>>
>> bill
>>
>> (Still time to do the conversion.   :-)
>>
>
> I think that Davids application runs as a distributed system.
> z/OS are usually very centralized systems.
>
>

I guess my comment was too tongue-in-cheek. The same auditors who are
trying to push VMS and BASIC out the door would apply equal pressure
on z/OS and COBOL today.

Oh, and Dave, I thought you were the boss?
:-)

bill

On 6/30/2022 9:58 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 6/29/2022 10:01 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> Erik (the boss) is 80, I'm 76, Bill in early 70s, and Niel is late
>> 60s, and really want to retire.
>>
>> We made a pitch to the customers.  Buy the software package, and we
>> will give you a year or whatever we can to train new people.  They
>> said they didn't want to be in the software business.  (Almost every
>> business for the last 30-40 years has been in the software business,
>> in some way.)
>>
>> Largest customer, now being run by original owner's children, had
>> their auditors come in, and were told:
>>
>> You can't use that ancient OS (VMS) ...
>> You can't continue with that ancient language (Basic) ...
>> You need a relational database ...
>> And a few more ridiculous claims ...
>> Above all, "you can't count on these old geezers" ...
>>
>> They refused to give them a successful audit ...
>>
>> Can't purchase business insurance without successful audit ...
>
> > We have continually offered to help.  Other customers are looking at the
> > clusterfuck, and are re-thinking about being in the software business.
> > Codis does all they need to run their companies.  The main problem is
> > the age of the people involved.  We'd really like to do something about
> > that, but if we could, we'd be rich and in the medical field, not
> software.
> >
> > Erik has told the customers, the company is shutting down at the end of
> > 2023. We'd like to continue, but we can't make any promises.  We will do
> > what we can. But if the beer truck gets us ...
> >
> > We have told the customers:
> >
> > VSI is currently supporting VMS, and porting it to x86 ...
> > VSI is currently (I hope John) supporting Basic ...
> > The auditing firm is a bunch of crooks ...
>
> There are some reasons for concerns:
> - niche OS (VMS)
> - niche language (VMS Basic)
> - obsolete language (Macro-32)
> - probably non-optimal persistence technology (RMS index-sequential
> files aka NoSQL Key Value Store)
> - the team getting close to retirement
>
> But it is not an urgent problem:
> - all the software is supported and can be expected to be
>   supported for many years
> - the team has not retired yet
>
> What you need is a roadmap showing a long term viable future.
>
> Obviously I don't know the company or the product that well, so this is
> pure speculation, but something like:
> - keep VMS but switch to VMS x86-64, it is supported and even though
>   Linux is server OS king today then everybody does not need to run
>   Linux, working with VMS is a learnable skill (someone that know
>   Linux should be able to learn VMS in weeks)
> - keep VMS Basic, it is supported and a rewrite would cost a lot of
>   money and create a lot of bugs that would need to be fixed, and
>   programming in VMS Basic is a learnable skill (someone that
>   know VB.NET/Delphi/C should be able to learn VMS Basic in a few
>   months)
> - get rid of the Macro-32, rewrite to VMS Basic or C, too difficult to
>   get people onboarded with Macro-32
> - change to a relational database, besides looking better in the audit
>   report you will actually get some benefits in the form of less code

- and ensure that frontend/UI technology is modern, there are so much
to choose from, I would suggest Grails - not the most common choice,
but I think it would be easy to integrate with your backend

Arne

Den 2022-06-30 kl. 18:27, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
> On 6/30/22 11:06, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> Den 2022-06-30 kl. 15:02, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>>> On 6/29/22 22:01, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 6/29/2022 3:36 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 6/29/2022 3:28 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>>                                   My days working with VMS, and
>>>>>> computers in
>>>>>> general, seem to be coming to an end.
>>>>>
>>>>> What??
>>>>>
>>>>> We expect you to stick around for a few more decades!
>>>>>
>>>>> Arne
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Erik (the boss) is 80, I'm 76, Bill in early 70s, and Niel is late 60s,
>>>> and really want to retire.
>>>>
>>>> We made a pitch to the customers.  Buy the software package, and we
>>>> will give you a year or whatever we can to train new people.  They said
>>>> they didn't want to be in the software business.  (Almost every
>>>> business for the last 30-40 years has been in the software business, in
>>>> some way.)
>>>>
>>>> Largest customer, now being run by original owner's children, had their
>>>> auditors come in, and were told:
>>>>
>>>> You can't use that ancient OS (VMS) ...
>>>> You can't continue with that ancient language (Basic) ...
>>>> You need a relational database ...
>>>> And a few more ridiculous claims ...
>>>> Above all, "you can't count on these old geezers" ...
>>>>
>>>> They refused to give them a successful audit ...
>>>>
>>>> Can't purchase business insurance without successful audit ...
>>>>
>>>> Then they pointed out a company with a cloud based solution for the
>>>> customer to talk to.  Too bad they didn't mention that the company was
>>>> a wholely owned subsidiary of the auditing firm.
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> The app uses a single connection to the cloud.  There is inadequate
>>>> throughput. It is slow.  Every time the customer asks for a feature in
>>>> Codis, they are told that cannot be done.  After several postponements,
>>>> the customer went live on the cloud solution.  They are missing many
>>>> features they counted on.  The system is inadequate.  For example,
>>>> (Bill likes to gather statistics), max orders from Amazon have hit 100
>>>> per minute.  The new system is lucky to handle 5 Amazon orders per
>>>> minute. Most people aware of this are predicting that they're going to
>>>> crater. There is also the penalties from Amazon if a vendor does not
>>>> perform as agreed.
>>>>
>>>> This customer might have spent a million over the last 30 years on
>>>> Codis. Already they have spent over 5 million trying to get the new
>>>> cloud based working, and it isn't doing so well.
>>>>
>>>> We have continually offered to help.  Other customers are looking at
>>>> the clusterfuck, and are re-thinking about being in the software
>>>> business. Codis does all they need to run their companies.  The main
>>>> problem is the age of the people involved.  We'd really like to do
>>>> something about that, but if we could, we'd be rich and in the medical
>>>> field, not software.
>>>>
>>>> Erik has told the customers, the company is shutting down at the end of
>>>> 2023. We'd like to continue, but we can't make any promises.  We will
>>>> do what we can. But if the beer truck gets us ...
>>>>
>>>> We have told the customers:
>>>>
>>>> VSI is currently supporting VMS, and porting it to x86 ...
>>>> VSI is currently (I hope John) supporting Basic ...
>>>> The auditing firm is a bunch of crooks ...
>>>>
>>>> The names were changed to protect the guilty ...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Should have used COBOL.  Then they could move to z/OS and DB2.
>>> DB2 meet the relational database requirement.  And z/OS, well,
>>> nobody ever got fired for going with IBM.   :-)
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>> (Still time to do the conversion.   :-)
>>>
>>
>> I think that Davids application runs as a distributed system.
>> z/OS are usually very centralized systems.
>>
>>
>
> I guess my comment was too tongue-in-cheek.  The same auditors who are
> trying to push VMS and BASIC out the door would apply equal pressure
> on z/OS and COBOL today.
>
> Oh, and Dave, I thought you were the boss?
> :-)
>
> bill
>

Some companies have one boss "on paper" and one "IRL"... :-)