On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 9:56:51 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
> In article <4ae4de33-ba0d-403a...@googlegroups.com>,
> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
>
> > So far, everyone I know that does phone apps and used to use QT
> > has jumped to Dart. They are writing their apps using Dart on
> > Fuchsia.
> How many organisations and apps is that? Qt hasn't exactly dominated UI
> in smartphone apps AFAIK.

I don't know, but it was quite a few. They had a lot of developers that knew nothing so they loved QML. If you are getting a phone app for Ford or one of the other major American automotive brands you are getting a Qt app because Ford standardized on it for both the infotainment system any any apps they ship. An exact number I don't know.

> > Microsoft is going to sell a Windows Desktop that installs on the
> > Linux of your choice, just like KDE, Gnome, etc.
> Will it run existing Windows programs? Doing that requires having a large
> fraction of the Windows OS, over and above the desktop.
>
Not really no. MS has been migrating to DOT-NOT-EVERYWHERE or is it DOT-NOT-ANYWHERE for years. It's how they have been straddling the Apple BSD based OS.

Just what "programs" does Microsoft actually have?

I'm serious. During the age of Windows for Workgroups your point was highly valid. I believe 2019 is the last installible version of MS Office one can purchase and you __really__ have to hunt for it. MS has tried to force customers to Office 365 on the cloud. That just needs a browser. The Windows 10 Solitaire game requires an Internet connection to pump advertisements at you, and to run because it is pretty much just a browser front end too.

The vendors in the Microsoft store are all going to be screwed, yes. Linux developers will need for Qt, CopperSpice, wxWidgets, insert-heavy-cross-platform-UI-library-here, to support the new desktop. Most of them are still scrambling to get something that actually works with Wayland right now.

Microsoft and quite a few others are in the process of eliminating the "personal computer." They all want you 100% connected to the Internet paying for subscriptions. They want a dumb browser terminal that supports touch/mouse/keyboard and has no local apps. Without an Internet connection what you have is a brick. They are pushing the "personal browser" device.

Has anyone looked under the hood for Windows 11? I haven't, but I hear there is almost nothing you can do without an Internet connection.

In article <2ae3f4b0-82ac-4b7a-8029-b234b16c2782n@googlegroups.com>,
roland@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:

> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 9:56:51 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
> > In article <4ae4de33-ba0d-403a...@googlegroups.com>,
> > rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
> >
> > > So far, everyone I know that does phone apps and used to use QT
> > > has jumped to Dart. They are writing their apps using Dart on
> > > Fuchsia.
> > How many organisations and apps is that? Qt hasn't exactly
> > dominated UI in smartphone apps AFAIK.
>
> I don't know, but it was quite a few. They had a lot of developers
> that knew nothing so they loved QML. If you are getting a phone app
> for Ford or one of the other major American automotive brands you
> are getting a Qt app because Ford standardized on it for both the
> infotainment system any any apps they ship. An exact number I don't
> know.

OK, so a segment of the Android app market is having a fashion for Dart
and Flutter. Those work fine on Android and iOS. That doesn't in itself
imply a transition to Fuchsia. Do you have any more substantial sources
on that than the likes of
<https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/is-samsung-looking-to-replace-android-w
ith-fuchsia-os>?

Samsung is a big enough organisation that they can keep in touch with
projects that aren't their definite plans. Google is a large and
balkanised organisation: I'm sure there are people within it who would
love to replace Android with Fuchsia, but there definitely aren't enough
Fuschia resources out there for that process to start. I looked, and
there isn't much documentation, no app SDK and no NDK.

> > Will it run existing Windows programs? Doing that requires having
> > a large fraction of the Windows OS, over and above the desktop.
> Not really no. MS has been migrating to DOT-NOT-EVERYWHERE or is it
> DOT-NOT-ANYWHERE for years. It's how they have been straddling the
> Apple BSD based OS.

I'm afraid you're a bit behind the times. .NET runs on a lot more
platforms these days, but it is not what Microsoft want to push for all
development. They've been through a lot of proprietary languages and
frameworks in the last decade. I've been in touch with them a lot in the
last couple of years about producing software for ARM Windows - they came
to us and asked us to do it - and there hasn't been a murmur about
anything like this Windows-style desktop for Linux.

> Just what "programs" does Microsoft actually have?
>
> I'm serious. During the age of Windows for Workgroups your point
> was highly valid. I believe 2019 is the last installible version of
> MS Office one can purchase and you __really__ have to hunt for it.
> MS has tried to force customers to Office 365 on the cloud. That
> just needs a browser. The Windows 10 Solitaire game requires an
> Internet connection to pump advertisements at you, and to run
> because it is pretty much just a browser front end too.

Visual Studio development tools all run locally. The corporate Office 365
I use is installed locally. I think you're over-interpreting their
consumer strategy. If they do what you suggest, they lose their biggest
allies in corporate IT departments: the staff trained on Microsoft
products, who don't understand other operating systems.

Microsoft is a very large and severely balkanised organisation. I'm sure
there are people within it who would like to do what you suggest, bit it
would be commercial suicide for the company.

John

On Sun, 2022-07-03 at 13:29 -0700, seasoned_geek wrote:
> Has anyone looked under the hood for Windows 11? I haven't, but I
> hear there is almost nothing you can do without an Internet
> connection.

Unfortunately that is true. Microsoft demands you sign up with them to
use Windows 11, even if you bought a licence. That'll go down nicely
with big corps.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 7/3/22 17:15, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Sun, 2022-07-03 at 13:29 -0700, seasoned_geek wrote:
>> Has anyone looked under the hood for Windows 11? I haven't, but I
>> hear there is almost nothing you can do without an Internet
>> connection.
>
> Unfortunately that is true. Microsoft demands you sign up with them to
> use Windows 11, even if you bought a licence. That'll go down nicely
> with big corps.

Being as the newest (most modern) PC I have fails the Windows 11
test I don't think I will need to worry about it. :-)

bill

On 2022-07-03 20:29:43 +0000, seasoned_geek said:

> Just what "programs" does Microsoft actually have?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_software

The core of the VSI IDE is included in that list, too.

> I'm serious.

What evidence might or will convince you to change your beliefs? While
we're being serious.

> During the age of Windows for Workgroups your point was highly valid. I
> believe 2019 is the last installible version of MS Office one can
> purchase and you __really__ have to hunt for it.

Current is Microsoft Office 2021 for Windows and Mac, with plans for a
future and follow-on LTSC perpetual-license version listed here:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/office/office-2021-and-office-ltsc-for-windows-and-mac-faq-d574cf0b-3ebc-42cf-9035-a3b837e0463c

Microsoft has been on a three-year release and support cycle, in recent years.

Beyond the LTSC versions, Microsoft 365—the new name for Microsoft
Office 365—provides the same local tools, with a subscription license.
You can use a web browser if you don't have local tools, and Microsoft
365 includes "fully installed and always up-to-date versions of
Outlook, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote for Windows or Mac".
Downloads. Apps. Which run locally.

There are Microsoft app downloads for iPhone, iPad and Android, too.
Which also run locally.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/mobile

Does Microsoft want most folks to purchase subscriptions? Does
Microsoft want folks migrated to and running mostly-current
subscriptions and apps, and want rid of the support costs of the folks
running inevitably ancient LTSC perpetual-licensed versions? Well,
sure. Obviously.

> MS has tried to force customers to Office 365 on the cloud. That just
> needs a browser.

Browser or local tools. And yes, Microsoft does want everybody over
onto subscription services and Azure. So do most vendors. Subscriptions
are recurring revenues. Including VSI and their current subscription
licensing for OpenVMS.

> The Windows 10 Solitaire game requires an Internet connection to pump
> advertisements at you, and to run because it is pretty much just a
> browser front end too.

Windows includes advertising for pretty much everybody but Enterprise
tier licenses, yes. The inclusion of advertising in Microsoft products
is not news, either.

The settings to disable (parts of) this advertising stuff are scattered
around, as has been longstanding Microsoft UI practice.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/stop-ads-in-windows-10/06d95d0a-a767-4ba0-ac9e-a60b43e30da7

https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-remove-annoying-ads-from-windows-11
https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windows-10s-built-in-advertising/
(no relation—includes details on the Solitaire and Minesweeper USD$10
subscriptions, and alternatives)

While less visible than advertising, telemetry is another controversial
feature within Windows, and all versions of Windows ship varying
amounts of telemetry data back to Microsoft.

I expect that VSI will eventually add telemetry into OpenVMS too,
though preferably opt-in to comply with various applicable privacy
regulations.

> The vendors in the Microsoft store are all going to be screwed, yes.
> Linux developers will need for Qt, CopperSpice, wxWidgets,
> insert-heavy-cross-platform-UI-library-here, to support the new desktop.

For folks selling apps for a platform? You get to deal with what the
associated platform vendor offers. Donno about the others, but Qt 5 and
later do list Wayland support.

I'm usually dealing with SwiftUI / UIKit / AppKit, or with what VSI
offers for UIs, and ignoring this whole area of Windows and
cross-platform. How I know this much about Windows and Microsoft 365,
inquiring minds might wonder.

> Most of them are still scrambling to get something that actually works
> with Wayland right now.

RHEL has been shipping and defaulting to Wayland for a while now, same
for Fedora, and Ubuntu had switched back to Wayland when last I
checked. And Wayland can run X, for those that need that.

Whether VSI will eventually port Weston and Maynard to OpenVMS, as the
foundation for an updated DECwindows, err, VSIwindows? Donno.

> Microsoft and quite a few others are in the process of eliminating the
> "personal computer." They all want you 100% connected to the Internet
> paying for subscriptions. They want a dumb browser terminal that
> supports touch/mouse/keyboard and has no local apps. Without an
> Internet connection what you have is a brick. They are pushing the
> "personal browser" device.
>
> Has anyone looked under the hood for Windows 11? I haven't, but I hear
> there is almost nothing you can do without an Internet connection.

Windows 11 evolved from Windows 10, and all that shares a direct
lineage back to Windows NT, and to DEC MICA.

Services for Linux (SFL 2) uses the Windows hypervisor platform—APIs
for hypervisors and for containers—and I've wondered how related that
API might be to the now-ancient DEC MICA subsystems.

Apple has the macOS hypervisor frameworks for similar reasons and uses.

TL;DR: Long term for Microsoft? Microsoft wants everybody using Azure.
From 2014:
https://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/what-is-satya-nadella-s-strategy-for-microsoft-1222212

--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

On 7/3/2022 4:29 PM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 9:56:51 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
>> In article <4ae4de33-ba0d-403a...@googlegroups.com>,
>> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
>>> So far, everyone I know that does phone apps and used to use QT
>>> has jumped to Dart. They are writing their apps using Dart on
>>> Fuchsia.
>> How many organisations and apps is that? Qt hasn't exactly dominated UI
>> in smartphone apps AFAIK.
>

> I don't know, but it was quite a few. They had a lot of developers
> that knew nothing so they loved QML. If you are getting a phone app
> for Ford or one of the other major American automotive brands you are
> getting a Qt app because Ford standardized on it for both the
> infotainment system any any apps they ship. An exact number I don't
> know.
Both Android and iOS apps are counted in millions.

The most common for Android is Kotlin and Java. The most common for
iOS is Swift and Objective-C. Because that is what Google and
Apple pushes.

Next tier is stuff like PhoneGap/Cordova and Xamarin/MAUI.

Qt is niche.

>>> Microsoft is going to sell a Windows Desktop that installs on the
>>> Linux of your choice, just like KDE, Gnome, etc.
>> Will it run existing Windows programs? Doing that requires having a large
>> fraction of the Windows OS, over and above the desktop.
>>
> Not really no. MS has been migrating to DOT-NOT-EVERYWHERE or is it
> DOT-NOT-ANYWHERE for years. It's how they have been straddling the
> Apple BSD based OS.
If the applications run on any .NET platform, then that would make
it a lot easier.

Unfortunately there are a lot of Windows specific pieces.

> Just what "programs" does Microsoft actually have?

The desktop OS used by almost all businesses (Windows).
The office package used by almost all businesses (Office).
Their Chrome clone (Edge).
Two of the most widely used IDE's (VS and VSC).
The mail system used by almost all business (Exchange).
The intranet system used by most business (SharePoint)
One of the most used databases (SQLServer).
Their web server (IIS/ASP.NET).
The most used ERP and CRM package among mid size business (Dynamics).
One of the most used devops packages (Azure DevOps).
+a lot more

> The vendors in the Microsoft store are all going to be screwed, yes.
> Linux developers will need for Qt, CopperSpice, wxWidgets,
> insert-heavy-cross-platform-UI-library-here, to support the new
> desktop. Most of them are still scrambling to get something that
> actually works with Wayland right now.
Qt and wxWidgets are niche for those with special requirements
or stuck in the the early 00's.

There are so many alternatives today. To pick a random one: Electron.

> Microsoft and quite a few others are in the process of eliminating
> the "personal computer." They all want you 100% connected to the
> Internet paying for subscriptions. They want a dumb browser terminal
> that supports touch/mouse/keyboard and has no local apps. Without an
> Internet connection what you have is a brick. They are pushing the
> "personal browser" device. >
> Has anyone looked under the hood for Windows 11? I haven't, but I
> hear there is almost nothing you can do without an Internet
> connection.
True.

That is the direction.

Arne

On 7/3/2022 10:14 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 1:50:47 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 6/19/2022 10:37 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 5:49:30 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 6/18/2022 11:53 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 10:32:21 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/17/2022 11:00 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/06/2022 14:33, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> Not nonsense, where they are headed. It just takes the tiny x86 minds at Microsoft a while to get there.
>>>
>>> There are huge legal reasons for Microsoft to move in that direction
>>> especially now with all of the privacy and liability laws being enacted
>>> globally. When there is a security breach in the Linux TCP/IP stack or
>>> some other Linux kernel/component there is nobody to hold liable. When
>>> the same thing happens with Windows, Microsoft can now be held liable.
>>>
>>> If Windows becomes "just another desktop" on top of the Linux kernel, Microsoft can only be held accountable for its portion.
>> No MS is accountable for what they sell to customers.
>
> This shows just how little you know.
>
> The __purchased__ item is the Windows desktop and it runs on the free Linux distro of your choice. Microsoft and Windows are no longer liable for any network breaches because 100% of the network code is OpenSource Linux which they have no control over per the license agreement.

If MS sell an installable product with a Linux kernel and a
Windows desktop then they may be able to sell it because
their customer do not care whether it has a NT kernel or
a Linux kernel, but they would still be responsible for
the product.

If MS tell customers to buy or download a Unix distro,
install it and get it running on their PC and then buy
and install a Windows desktop, then they would not be
responsible for the Linux pieces, but they would not get
any customers - as that is not what Windows users expect.

>>>> They could probably do it. If Android SDK,
>>>> Android NDK and Play Services are available, then
>>>> practically everything should work identical whether
>>>> it is Linux or Fuchsia below.
>>>
>>> No. Android is being EOL in its entirety. Android cannot be fixed.
>>> The Fuchsia phone Samsung is actively developing is pure Fuchsia using DART
>>> for the primary app language. No Android anything. No Java support
>>> what-so-ever.
>>>
>>> https://screenrant.com/future-samsung-smartphones-might-ship-with-fuchsia-os-instead-of-android/
>>>
>>> There are a lot more companies than Samsung adopting Fuchsia now.
>>> It's had a pretty successful pilot run on the smart speakers.
>> If you actually read the article then you can see that it is just
>> speculation.
>>
>> There are always someone on the internet willing to make some
>> weird predictions.
>>
>> A total switch from Android is very unlikely to happen.
>>
>> The smartphone platform market is extremely difficult to enter.
>> People will not buy a smartphone without the apps they
>> use. And the app creators will not supply their apps for a
>> platform without users.
>
> That's exactly what people who know nothing said about Apple each and
> every time it completely abandoned a platform.
And why Apple jumped through hoops to make the new platforms
compatible with the old.

> So far, everyone I know that does phone apps and used to use QT has
> jumped to Dart. They are writing their apps using Dart on Fuchsia.
> The legacy Android platform has some Dart support so the apps kind of
> run there. To counter your point, there already is a large supply of
> Fuchsia apps, they are simply waiting on the Samsung phone and a
> Fuchsia specific "store"
Most phone developers are busy writing apps for existing
phones not for phones that may show up in the future.

Arne

On 7/3/2022 5:19 PM, John Dallman wrote:
> OK, so a segment of the Android app market is having a fashion for Dart
> and Flutter. Those work fine on Android and iOS. That doesn't in itself
> imply a transition to Fuchsia.

Furthermore Dart may be a fine language, but it is my impression
that the move JavaScript->TypeScript is way more common than
JavaScript->Dart, which may make Dart a risky bet long term.

This particular Dart use case may not be something TypeScript
(currently) can do. But there is a large overlap in use
for the two languages in the industry. And I find it difficult
to see both of them succeed.

Arne

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 4:20:40 PM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
> In article <2ae3f4b0-82ac-4b7a...@googlegroups.com>,
> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 9:56:51 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
> > > In article <4ae4de33-ba0d-403a...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
> > >
> OK, so a segment of the Android app market is having a fashion for Dart
> and Flutter. Those work fine on Android and iOS. That doesn't in itself
> imply a transition to Fuchsia. Do you have any more substantial sources
> on that than the likes of
> <https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/is-samsung-looking-to-replace-android-w
> ith-fuchsia-os>?

Not that can be linked to or isn't currently protected by NDA. It appears some of their employees have been tweeting things they shouldn't have.
https://www.sammyfans.com/2021/12/22/fuchsia-may-power-future-samsung-devices-replacing-android/

>
> Samsung is a big enough organisation that they can keep in touch with
> projects that aren't their definite plans. Google is a large and
> balkanised organisation: I'm sure there are people within it who would
> love to replace Android with Fuchsia, but there definitely aren't enough
> Fuschia resources out there for that process to start. I looked, and
> there isn't much documentation, no app SDK and no NDK.

Well Android has architectural and security flaws that simply cannot be fixed. In particular it cannot be defended against this.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/18/israeli-spyware-used-to-target-phones-of-journalists-and-activists-investigation-finds.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)

I don't know what you're looking for in doc though.

https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src
https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/development/sdk

> I'm afraid you're a bit behind the times. .NET runs on a lot more
> platforms these days, but it is not what Microsoft want to push for all
> development.

That would be highly likely. I don't follow MS, just have friends that work for various MS entities who can't keep their mouth shut. They know how much I hate Microsoft and all it stands for.

> They've been through a lot of proprietary languages and
> frameworks in the last decade. I've been in touch with them a lot in the
> last couple of years about producing software for ARM Windows - they came
> to us and asked us to do it - and there hasn't been a murmur about
> anything like this Windows-style desktop for Linux.

Microsoft is a large Balkanized organization that constantly pursues technical and commercial dead ends. It's a heavily siloed company. Malcolm Berko had the best financial rant I've ever read about Microsoft.

https://www.creators.com/read/taking-stock/08/16/america-first-and-microsofts-purchase-of-linkedin

Sadly this world lost him.

I've had friends who worked "at Microsoft" at the same time in the same campus in the same building and neither heard of what the other was working on..

Is Microsoft Automotive group even still around after getting fired by Ford over the debacle that is Sync? That was their one and only customer.

> Visual Studio development tools all run locally. The corporate Office 365
> I use is installed locally. I think you're over-interpreting their
> consumer strategy. If they do what you suggest, they lose their biggest
> allies in corporate IT departments: the staff trained on Microsoft
> products, who don't understand other operating systems.
>

You know, working in the medical device world as I do now, I see a lot of corporations who run their own Windows Update servers. Not one corporate desktop pulls down anything from Microsoft. I've never used the Office 365 product. Does it run any different when you are working via Internet? I've seen companies pay Google for their own "private" Google Docs and gmail. I've seen other companies host the stuff on their own servers. Do you really think Microsoft won't sell a company the size of a Baxter Office 365 for their local network so it can be completely secured by the company?

Managing Microsoft licenses has historically been a nightmare.

https://isg-one.com/articles/managing-microsoft-licenses-the-cost-of-convenience

Just how many people in a corporate office actually understand anything about Microsoft Windows as an operating system? The vast majority I encounter use their corporate installed email, Web browser, Office products (be they Google Docs or something from Microsoft), and possibly sharepoint. That's it. They get to everything from the desktop and have no real knowledge of what is running underneath.

> Microsoft is a very large and severely balkanised organisation. I'm sure
> there are people within it who would like to do what you suggest, bit it
> would be commercial suicide for the company.

Microsoft has committed commercial suicide numerous times. Bill Gates committed enough crimes in the early days to give it a too large cash war chest which is why it can recover from catastrophe after catastrophe.

MS DOS 4.0
Windows ME
Windows 8
Windows Vista
Microsoft Bob
Microsoft Automotive
Zune
Clippy

Remember Windows Phone which involved the purchase of Nokia and forcing them to divest Qt, then a massive write-down. Talk about incompetence! They actually owned Qt but didn't want it competing with their other proprietary products so they made Nokia get rid of it.

https://www.pocket-lint.com/apps/news/microsoft/106694-the-biggest-microsoft-failures-ever

Windows Mobile - not to be confused with Windows Phone

They even failed spectacularly at social networking with MSN some 15 years before Facebook.

https://techlog360.com/failed-microsoft-products/

I had forgotten about WebTV, Passport, and Encarta until I looked at this.
https://lisamerriam.com/microsoft-becoming-a-failure-12-brand-mistakes-with-high-costs/

The one you can never forget about is Microsoft Money. A product sooooo bad the FTC barred them from giving it to Novell so they could buy QuickBooks/Quicken.

The short answer is Microsoft routinely commits suicide. Sadly, it hasn't depleted its cash reserves and gone out of business.

I hear what you are saying. For any other company it would be legitimate. Microsoft never learns from mistakes.

Will the "Windows Desktop for Linux" be the next Windows ME? Maybe. Letting the user pick a Linux distro to install then layering a Microsoft Desktop on it removes an awful lot of legal liability for network breaches, malware, viruses, etc.

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 8:33:33 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/3/2022 10:14 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 1:50:47 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> On 6/19/2022 10:37 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 5:49:30 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >>>> On 6/18/2022 11:53 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 10:32:21 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >>>>>> On 6/17/2022 11:00 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 17/06/2022 14:33, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >
> > This shows just how little you know.
> >
> > The __purchased__ item is the Windows desktop and it runs on the free Linux distro of your choice. Microsoft and Windows are no longer liable for any network breaches because 100% of the network code is OpenSource Linux which they have no control over per the license agreement.
> If MS sell an installable product with a Linux kernel and a
> Windows desktop then they may be able to sell it because
> their customer do not care whether it has a NT kernel or
> a Linux kernel, but they would still be responsible for
> the product.
>
> If MS tell customers to buy or download a Unix distro,
> install it and get it running on their PC and then buy
> and install a Windows desktop, then they would not be
> responsible for the Linux pieces, but they would not get
> any customers - as that is not what Windows users expect.

Seriously? Did you think about that before you typed it?

Other than a few hard core coding geeks, what Microsoft "user" installs Windows?

They go to a Big Box store, or a Web site. They buy a computer "with Windows pre-installed." It asks them for a user name and password at first boot. They have no idea how it got installed and more importantly they don't care..

Most of my corporate clients have a contract with Dell/Lenovo/big-brand-here. Each machine for each job type has a pre-configured load installed. They have a 24/48 hour replacement for any machine acting up. It's all part of the lease. That's why you see so many 4 year old machines come onto eBay advertised as "off-lease."

Windows 11 abandoned every computer made before something like two years ago.

> > That's exactly what people who know nothing said about Apple each and
> > every time it completely abandoned a platform.
> And why Apple jumped through hoops to make the new platforms
> compatible with the old.

Not really.

https://www.howtogeek.com/677270/deja-vu-a-brief-history-of-every-mac-cpu-architecture/

I never heard of anyone being able to use Lisa software on Macintosh or any Macintosh stuff being able to run on iMac.

Apple completely abandons its customer base with each processor change. The switch to Apple made ARM processors for notebooks/laptops/desktops may be the only switch with a semi-compatible code base for the OS . . . assuming they stick with their butchered BSD.

> Most phone developers are busy writing apps for existing
> phones not for phones that may show up in the future.

Just how many phone developers do you speak with? I communicate with a few working for larger app houses. Those who work "native" are working with stuff that won't ship for a year. Many of the others bit the bullet and licensed Qt expecting Qt to handle the underlying hardware differences. Given the long list of phone hardware support feature requests, that was a bad idea, no matter how much they liked QML and JavaScript.

Phones have a market life of about six months. You need lead time if you are going to use "the cool new hardware"

On Sun, 2022-07-03 at 18:37 -0400, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 7/3/22 17:15, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> > On Sun, 2022-07-03 at 13:29 -0700, seasoned_geek wrote:
> > > Has anyone looked under the hood for Windows 11? I haven't, but I
> > > hear there is almost nothing you can do without an Internet
> > > connection.
> >
> > Unfortunately that is true. Microsoft demands you sign up with them
> > to
> > use Windows 11, even if you bought a licence. That'll go down
> > nicely with big corps.
>
> Being as the newest (most modern) PC I have fails the Windows 11
> test I don't think I will need to worry about it.  :-)

Many of our customers are now buying new PCs with Windows 11 pre-
installed all begging to be signed up unfortunately. <most profane
curses inserted here>
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 5:50:44 PM UTC-5, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
> On 2022-07-03 20:29:43 +0000, seasoned_geek said:
>
> > Just what "programs" does Microsoft actually have?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_software
>
> The core of the VSI IDE is included in that list, too.
>
That list isn't useful for this discussion Hoff. It lists Commodore BASIC and a host of other long dead products.

> > I'm serious.
>
> What evidence might or will convince you to change your beliefs? While
> we're being serious.

Having consulting friends that work there _stop_ telling me it is what they are working on. Should they tell me? No. They simply know how much I hate Microsoft.

Legally and financially "Windows Desktop for Linux" makes sense.

https://healthitsecurity.com/news/microsoft-data-breach-exposes-38m-records-containing-pii

There are lots of security breach lawsuits they can avoid by becoming a desktop on top of the Linux distro of user's choice.

> For folks selling apps for a platform? You get to deal with what the
> associated platform vendor offers. Donno about the others, but Qt 5 and
> later do list Wayland support.

Yeah....list != really work. It kinda-sorta-functions with some significant issues. If you have Wayland capable hardware and install the latest Debian with KDE desktop you can see it kinda-sorta-works. Apps have to be tweaked. Scintilla had to rush through a patch because the Qt versions were deleting text on the screen when run under Wayland.

>
> RHEL has been shipping and defaulting to Wayland for a while now, same
> for Fedora, and Ubuntu had switched back to Wayland when last I
> checked. And Wayland can run X, for those that need that.
>
Well, no, it can't. Wayland has a partial X11 client which exists but is not required to be enabled. I run Ubuntu natively on multiple development desktops here in my office. Even 22.04 isn't running Wayland on my hardware. I had to force my last Debian install to choose Wayland.

The Fedora 36 that I have running isn't running Wayland either. At least it wasn't after I applied updates yesterday.

I had to do the Wayland dance for the last medical device I worked on. NXP has pulled X11 support from its BSP for iMX8 and later. It's slowly disappearing from OpenEmbedded world too, at least with the Toradex stuff I was last using. It's also disappeared from the Varacite world.

X11 support is severely limited. You cannot even build anything on a Wayland system that uses the X11 development libraries. To make X11 software run under Wayland, assuming you don't use EGLFS which is almost non-existent in the Wayland environments I've worked with, you have to build a docker container using debian:2-bullseye. There you can have basic X11 support. The container can access the limited X11 support Wayland has in its X11 client.

CopperSpice currently has nothing for Wayland. I haven't tested wxWidgets lately, but according to the latest release notes.

https://www.wxwidgets.org/news/2022/04/wxwidgets-3.1.6-released/

They are still fixing a lot of Wayland bugs. Qt makes the claim, they like to do that. A search of the bug database for Wayland turns up 1544.

https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-28979?jql=text%20~%20%22wayland%22

When I tried to trim it down to just what I considered "open" given all of the different "open" tags it got down to 372.

https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-96720?jql=status%20in%20(Reported%2C%20%22Need%20More%20Info%22%2C%20Open%2C%20%22In%20Progress%22%2C%20Reopened%2C%20%22To%20Do%22%2C%20Backlog)%20AND%20text%20~%20%22wayland%22

The Linux world has a lot of claims that Wayland is everywhere, but they are about as accurate as the old claims of MS operating system being on 80% of desktops back in the days of DR DOS, OS/2, and having ever motherboard sold to be a Netware file server counted as an MS operating system even though it booted a tiny bit of DR DOS then launched Netware without a single MS product involved.

Will Wayland take over the Linux world? . . . Vulkan sure didn't and that was the be-all-end-all just a few years ago.

Despite all of its flaws, people won't give up X11. Just too large an installed base.

On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 6:01:34 AM UTC-5, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Sun, 2022-07-03 at 18:37 -0400, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > On 7/3/22 17:15, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2022-07-03 at 13:29 -0700, seasoned_geek wrote:
> > > > Has anyone looked under the hood for Windows 11? I haven't, but I
> > > > hear there is almost nothing you can do without an Internet
> > > > connection.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately that is true. Microsoft demands you sign up with them
> > > to
> > > use Windows 11, even if you bought a licence. That'll go down
> > > nicely with big corps.
> >
> > Being as the newest (most modern) PC I have fails the Windows 11
> > test I don't think I will need to worry about it. :-)
> Many of our customers are now buying new PCs with Windows 11 pre-
> installed all begging to be signed up unfortunately. <most profane
> curses inserted here>
> --
> Tactical Nuclear Kittens

ROFLMAO

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 8:33:33 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/3/2022 4:29 PM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 9:56:51 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
> >> In article <4ae4de33-ba0d-403a...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
>
> > I don't know, but it was quite a few. They had a lot of developers
> > that knew nothing so they loved QML. If you are getting a phone app
> > for Ford or one of the other major American automotive brands you are
> > getting a Qt app because Ford standardized on it for both the
> > infotainment system any any apps they ship. An exact number I don't
> > know.
> Both Android and iOS apps are counted in millions.
>
> The most common for Android is Kotlin and Java. The most common for
> iOS is Swift and Objective-C. Because that is what Google and
> Apple pushes.
>
> Next tier is stuff like PhoneGap/Cordova and Xamarin/MAUI.
>
> Qt is niche.

Seems like an awful lot of phone app developers, especially those who develop cross platform phone apps are hanging out in the qt-interest list for your assessment to be valid.

> Unfortunately there are a lot of Windows specific pieces.
> > Just what "programs" does Microsoft actually have?

Just to clarify, the part you cut out was what programs does Microsoft have that currently have to install?

> The office package used by almost all businesses (Office).

This would be incorrect. Lots of my medical device customers and some I haven't yet worked for, you know, tiny companies like Hill Rom and Baxter, have developers using Google DOCS. A big chunk are also migrating to OnlyOffice.

https://www.onlyoffice.com/blog/2018/07/5-million-onlyoffice-users-who-are-they-pt-2/

Browser only don't need to install anything pay for "secured" private storage.

Quite a number of paying for 365 subscriptions and "secured" private storage as well.

You don't __have__ to install an office package to have an office package

> Their Chrome clone (Edge).

And there are countless browsers for Linux. Opera is the current Chrome clone on Linux using the chrome libraries.

> Two of the most widely used IDE's (VS and VSC).
1) that statement is false. Every IDE user thinks their favorite IDE is "the most widely used"
2) VSCode has a Linux version. The identity theft collection aspect honked the Linux world off so much that a person/team ripped out the identity theft data collection parts and created VSCodium.
https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium

> The mail system used by almost all business (Exchange).

I have only worked at one company in the past 10 years that used Microsoft Exchange. I have worked at numerous companies that pay Google to private label GMail for them. Others host their own non-Exchange email server.

More to the point, the email server does not get installed on the desktop. Just an email client. There have to be close to a hundred email front ends for Linux. Thunderbird exists on numerous platforms.

> The intranet system used by most business (SharePoint)

I haven't encountered SharePoint at a client site since my last gig at Navistar roughly 15 years ago. SharePoint was soooo 1990s even then. Most of the SANS come with their own software. Some companies use SUSE Enterprise Linux Server, others are just using Samba shares. Most seem to be paying for cloud hosting and setting up wikis.

Again, not installed on the desktop

> One of the most used databases (SQLServer).
Not even close!

And it doesn't get installed on the desktop

> Their web server (IIS/ASP.NET).

1) I don't know of anyone actually running that
2) Not installed on the desktop

> The most used ERP and CRM package among mid size business (Dynamics).

Not even close to true, but live in your fantasy.

Again, does not get installed on the desktop

> One of the most used devops packages (Azure DevOps).

Wouldn't know. Professionals don't touch AGILE or do DevOps.

> Qt and wxWidgets are niche for those with special requirements
> or stuck in the the early 00's.

Really?
So, when you get cancer and they send you home with a fanny pack containing the B. Braun infusion pump I helped create, that's a niche market?

When you are rushed into ER and they hook you up to this vitals monitor
https://www.welchallyn.com/content/welchallyn/americas/en/products/categories/patient-monitoring/vital-signs-devices/connex-spot-monitor.html
while trying to save your life that is a niche market? Yeah, I helped bring that one to life too.

When you hop behind the wheel of a Ford, any ford made since Microsoft automotive got fired over their Sync debacle, the dash controls and infotainment system are a niche market?

When a farmer gets into the cab of a John Deere tractor and has everything on this display
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.tractorfan.nl%2Fgroot%2Fj%2Fjohn-deere%2F535799-intreur-john-deere.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
that's a niche market?

When Ford and half a dozen other automobile OEMs tell you to "download our app for your vehicle" so you can remote unlock, remote start, and God knows what else that's a niche? Roughly half of these buyers will have an imbecile phone and download the app.

https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-sales-numbers/ford-sales-numbers/ford-f-series-sales-numbers/

So, the "millions of apps" include hundreds of thousands of games that only the creator and two buddies ever download and play, those are "mainstream" and 20-70+K downloads per month of the OEM phone app written using Qt is niche? Is that correct?

We won't even get into discussing the stuff layered on top of Qt like Felgo..
https://felgo.com/apps

I just want to find out your definition of a "niche" because this is sounding very 1980s with all of those people claiming "Microsoft operating systems ran on 80% of desktops" when INTEL based PCs were roughly 50% of "desktops."

On 7/4/2022 6:15 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 4:20:40 PM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
>> In article <2ae3f4b0-82ac-4b7a...@googlegroups.com>,
>> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 9:56:51 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
>>>> In article <4ae4de33-ba0d-403a...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
>>>>
>> OK, so a segment of the Android app market is having a fashion for Dart
>> and Flutter. Those work fine on Android and iOS. That doesn't in itself
>> imply a transition to Fuchsia. Do you have any more substantial sources
>> on that than the likes of
>> <https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/is-samsung-looking-to-replace-android-w
>> ith-fuchsia-os>?
>
> Not that can be linked to or isn't currently protected by NDA. It appears some of their employees have been tweeting things they shouldn't have.
> https://www.sammyfans.com/2021/12/22/fuchsia-may-power-future-samsung-devices-replacing-android/

"According to the latest rumor ..."

:-)

>> Samsung is a big enough organisation that they can keep in touch with
>> projects that aren't their definite plans. Google is a large and
>> balkanised organisation: I'm sure there are people within it who would
>> love to replace Android with Fuchsia, but there definitely aren't enough
>> Fuschia resources out there for that process to start. I looked, and
>> there isn't much documentation, no app SDK and no NDK.
>
> Well Android has architectural and security flaws that simply cannot be fixed. In particular it cannot be defended against this.
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/18/israeli-spyware-used-to-target-phones-of-journalists-and-activists-investigation-finds.html
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)

????

Pegasus for Android called Chrysaor actually spread by tricking users
to install the malware from a link.

The ability for users to run malicious programs is usually not
considered an architectural and security flaw.

Arne

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 5:50:44 PM UTC-5, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
> On 2022-07-03 20:29:43 +0000, seasoned_geek said:
>
> > I'm serious.
>
> What evidence might or will convince you to change your beliefs? While
> we're being serious.

Actually, Hoff, why are you having such a tough time chewing and swallowing the idea the people working for Microsoft are working on a "Windows Desktop for Linux?"

What are three things Microsoft cannot do today?
1) Push ads to chromebooks
2) Push ads to Linux
3) Push ads to Android based 2:1 like this thing. https://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANDROID-DETACHABLE-KEYBOARD-Metallic/dp/B0784VQ3RR

Microsoft can only fix one because Google has the other two. When Fuchsia replaces Android Google will still own that.

What's the state of play today?

1) As you say: telemetry data back to Microsoft - I say gather identity theft information -- tomato -- tomato ---- Microsoft tried to get some of this with Visual Studio Code but the outrage caused VSCodium to get created..
2) Microsoft had a keyword advertising entity that went under trying to compete with Google Adwords, just can't find the name right now. It appears now all they have are Bing ads, ads pushed to Windows, and in-app ads with most everything installed from the Microsoft store.
3) Both times I worked on IPOS for Intel (explore this computer marketing load) I had to create both a .deb package and customizable ISO. Top brass at Intel said in the EU it was illegal to bundle OS and hardware so all retailers sold computer with Linux on it, especially true in former Soviet Union countries. Given how many times the full OS was pulled down I have to seriously doubt all of those "online stats" claiming Microsoft desktops dominate the Internet, especially given the plethora of iMbecile phones connecting to Internet with browser. Windows for Phone is a deceased product.
4) Windows 11 kicked all computers that weren't made in the last what? 2 or 3 years to the curb. They will continue to run Windows XP (still quite a few out there), 7, and 10 until they change hands. At that point millions upon millions will get some flavor of Linux because there aren't that many PC refurb shops that have their own registration & activation servers for Windows 7 or XP. A few, sure, I've spoken to one via email. The real killer will be the day McAfee stops virus updates for Windows 7.
5) Windows Central admits they don't use Windows for their desktops much anymore: https://www.windowscentral.com/can-linux-win-desktop-pc
6) Wine has gotten lots better: https://www.winehq.org/
7) Lots of Linux distros like Robolinux and others with Windows 7, 10, XP look and feel along with pre-installed Wine: https://www.how2shout.com/tools/best-windows-like-linux-distros-interface.html

So, I think we can agree that the number of PCs Windows 11 kissed off so Intel could sell more CPU during a global chip shortage is well into the millions. There's lots of gen4 stuff still out there running every day all the way up to the stuff made 4 years ago. The only way Microsoft is going to earn any money from these is if they happen to use Bing as their search engine. Microsoft can't push ads to that desktop and they don't have that Adwords competitor (unless they resurrected it and it is still so obscure nobody knows about it.)

Releasing software that gathers tomato-tomato information about users tends to cause severe outcry then developers pull that code out before it finds its way into most distros. Can't steal their identity or invade their privacy that way. Bummer dude!

Eventually Google will get some kind of app people like on Linux that it can use to push ads at them . . . besides the Chromium browser most refuse to install.

With tens of millions of machines that will have Linux on them because there is no other real alternative, that's billions of dollars in potential ad revenue someone with sticky fingers is going to stuff in their pockets.

Most every person of a certain age has at least one or two old applications that require an old MS OS. There is a growing sub-culture for retro computing as well.
http://retrocomputing.org/
https://retrocomputingforum.com/
In particular retro gaming is booming and people are paying more for DOS era add-in sound cards than some cost new back in the day.
https://www.gamesradar.com/how-to-build-a-retro-gaming-pc/

Businesses are in a particular bind when they have stuff with legacy software that must remain as-is due to regulations or whatever. Gee, no DEC user could ever understand that.
Medical devices created during the era had all of the documentation in a certain version of Word Perfect for DOS or Windows for Workgroups, not to mention the dev environment. Some law offices have a lot of stuff in older Word Perfect versions that must remain such.

So, there are trapped customers. There are Linux distros copying your look & feel. Wine isn't the joke it used to be and there are billions of dollars in potential ad revenue for platforms you cannot push to and do not "send telemetry back to Microsoft."

Do you let Google put something out there that will allow them to push ads and gather telemetry or do you spend a bit of time creating Windows Desktop for Linux? This lets you gather telemetry and push ads. If you manage to get a virus called Edge ported and unremovable you can link the Edge browsing data to pushed ads.

Who doesn't want to surf for Depends undergarment coupons for an aging parent then have Depends ads randomly popping up on their desktop while others are looking over their shoulder????

You can have a free version that does only that and a commercial Pro/Ultimate version that includes little hypervisor (since they haven't moved into this century) VMs of Windows for Workgroups, Windows XP, Windows 7, perhaps even Windows 10. Now they aren't using Wine but an actual VMed version of the OS and they are paying MS money for it while MS gathers telemetry from all of those instances.

In the ad revenue and identity theft information gathering world MS is losing. Yes, they can push some ads at someone using Windows 10, if that someone hasn't found the tech sites to turn most of those off. As long as they don't install aps from the Microsoft Store and avoid using Bing, Microsoft doesn't earn any money from them. If the computer is priced under a certain dollar amount Windows 10 was free for OEM to install so MS didn't even get any revenue there.

Windows Phone was the kind of failure other failures pointed at and said "God you're a failure!" All of that identity theft/privacy invasion data is going back to Google and Apple. MS is getting none and cannot push ads to the platform.

There is no compelling reason to move to Windows 11. I have yet to hear of a single "must have" feature. Has anyone heard of anything in Windows 11 that would compel someone running XP or 7 to rush out and buy a new computer?

Will Windows Desktop for Linux also be Windows 12? I don't know.

Could those telling me about it be winding me up? Maybe. When it comes to blowing smoke up my most southerly orifice they've never been able to coordinate a story longer than it takes for me to drink a glass of Chardonnay though and we are talking months here.

The business case for MS to do it is just too (&)(*&)(ing solid.

It isn't just avoiding the breach lawsuits, it's taking that big pile of identity theft privacy invasion data and push ad revenue off the table for themselves.

On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 1:01:02 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/4/2022 6:15 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 4:20:40 PM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
> >> In article <2ae3f4b0-82ac-4b7a...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 9:56:51 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
> >>>> In article <4ae4de33-ba0d-403a...@googlegroups.com>,
> >>>> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
> >>>>
>
> Pegasus for Android called Chrysaor actually spread by tricking users
> to install the malware from a link.
>

You are operating from obsolete information. It now infects iPhone and Android with zero-click attacks. No user interaction required.

https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-pegasus-spyware/

On 7/4/2022 6:33 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 8:33:33 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 7/3/2022 10:14 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
>>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 1:50:47 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 6/19/2022 10:37 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 5:49:30 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/18/2022 11:53 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 10:32:21 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/17/2022 11:00 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 17/06/2022 14:33, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>
>>> This shows just how little you know.
>>>
>>> The __purchased__ item is the Windows desktop and it runs on the free Linux distro of your choice. Microsoft and Windows are no longer liable for any network breaches because 100% of the network code is OpenSource Linux which they have no control over per the license agreement.
>> If MS sell an installable product with a Linux kernel and a
>> Windows desktop then they may be able to sell it because
>> their customer do not care whether it has a NT kernel or
>> a Linux kernel, but they would still be responsible for
>> the product.
>>
>> If MS tell customers to buy or download a Unix distro,
>> install it and get it running on their PC and then buy
>> and install a Windows desktop, then they would not be
>> responsible for the Linux pieces, but they would not get
>> any customers - as that is not what Windows users expect.
>
> Seriously? Did you think about that before you typed it?
>
> Other than a few hard core coding geeks, what Microsoft "user" installs Windows?
>
> They go to a Big Box store, or a Web site. They buy a computer "with
> Windows pre-installed." It asks them for a user name and password at
> first boot. They have no idea how it got installed and more
> importantly they don't care.
Some people prefer a clean install over a factory install, but
yes that is only the few.

But a lot of people actually upgrade Windows on old PC's today.
That used to be rare because people bought new PC's every 3-4
years, but no longer.

Regarding the new pre-installed systems, then that is certainly
extremely common, but it is not clear either.

Let us say that the consumer goes to Best Buy and buy a HP
laptop with pre-installed Windows.

You say that HP is responsible similar to the Ford logo, but in
the end MS is responsible for their software.

What happens if MS doesn't like that responsibility and tell HP
to install Linux and a MS product on top of that and a problem
is found in Linux?

It seems like HP will end up with the monkey then. But unless
HP is willing to take on a risk that MS is not, then HP will
not accept that.

Laptops without pre-installed OS????

Arne

On 7/4/2022 6:33 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 8:33:33 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Most phone developers are busy writing apps for existing
>> phones not for phones that may show up in the future.
> Just how many phone developers do you speak with? I communicate with
> a few working for larger app houses. Those who work "native" are
> working with stuff that won't ship for a year. Many of the others bit
> the bullet and licensed Qt expecting Qt to handle the underlying
> hardware differences. Given the long list of phone hardware support
> feature requests, that was a bad idea, no matter how much they liked
> QML and JavaScript.> > Phones have a market life of about six months. You need lead time if
> you are going to use "the cool new hardware"

That is not how phone apps are developed. They do not develop
for Samsung S22 or Samsung S23 or iPhone 13 or iPhone 14 or ...
They develop for Android version X+ or iPhone version Y+.

Developing for a phone platform that may or may not show up at
some unknown time in the future would be crazy.

Arne

On 7/4/2022 2:48 PM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 1:01:02 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 7/4/2022 6:15 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
>>> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 4:20:40 PM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
>>>> In article <2ae3f4b0-82ac-4b7a...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 9:56:51 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
>>>>>> In article <4ae4de33-ba0d-403a...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>
>> Pegasus for Android called Chrysaor actually spread by tricking users
>> to install the malware from a link.
>>
>
> You are operating from obsolete information. It now infects iPhone and Android with zero-click attacks. No user interaction required.
>
> https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-pegasus-spyware/

The zero click exploits are iOS only.

Arne

On 7/4/2022 1:01 PM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 8:33:33 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 7/3/2022 4:29 PM, seasoned_geek wrote:
>>> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 9:56:51 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
>>>> In article <4ae4de33-ba0d-403a...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> rol...@logikalsolutions.com (seasoned_geek) wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know, but it was quite a few. They had a lot of developers
>>> that knew nothing so they loved QML. If you are getting a phone app
>>> for Ford or one of the other major American automotive brands you are
>>> getting a Qt app because Ford standardized on it for both the
>>> infotainment system any any apps they ship. An exact number I don't
>>> know.
>> Both Android and iOS apps are counted in millions.
>>
>> The most common for Android is Kotlin and Java. The most common for
>> iOS is Swift and Objective-C. Because that is what Google and
>> Apple pushes.
>>
>> Next tier is stuff like PhoneGap/Cordova and Xamarin/MAUI.
>>
>> Qt is niche.
>
> Seems like an awful lot of phone app developers, especially those who
> develop cross platform phone apps are hanging out in the qt-interest
> list for your assessment to be valid.
If they can hang out on a mail list then they are niche.

(phone app developers are counted in hundreds of thousands)

Arne

On 7/4/2022 1:01 PM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 8:33:33 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 7/3/2022 4:29 PM, seasoned_geek wrote:
>>> Just what "programs" does Microsoft actually have?
>
> Just to clarify, the part you cut out was what programs does Microsoft have that currently have to install?
>
>> The office package used by almost all businesses (Office).
>
> This would be incorrect. Lots of my medical device customers and some I haven't yet worked for, you know, tiny companies like Hill Rom and Baxter, have developers using Google DOCS. A big chunk are also migrating to OnlyOffice.
>
> https://www.onlyoffice.com/blog/2018/07/5-million-onlyoffice-users-who-are-they-pt-2/
>
> Browser only don't need to install anything pay for "secured" private storage.
>
> Quite a number of paying for 365 subscriptions and "secured" private storage as well.
>
> You don't __have__ to install an office package to have an office package

MS sell Office for 22 B$ per year.

>> Their Chrome clone (Edge).
>
> And there are countless browsers for Linux.

That does not make Edge non-existing.

>> Two of the most widely used IDE's (VS and VSC).
> 1) that statement is false. Every IDE user thinks their favorite IDE is "the most widely used"

There are plenty of surveys covering IDE usage.

VS and VSC always come out in the top tier.

> 2) VSCode has a Linux version.

It is Electron based so it is portable.

>> One of the most used databases (SQLServer).

> Not even close!

It has been number 3 for several years now after Oracle and MySQL.

>> Their web server (IIS/ASP.NET).
>
> 1) I don't know of anyone actually running that

8-10% of all internet sites.

Arne

On 7/4/2022 1:01 PM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 8:33:33 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Qt and wxWidgets are niche for those with special requirements
>> or stuck in the the early 00's.
>
> Really?
> So, when you get cancer and they send you home with a fanny pack containing the B. Braun infusion pump I helped create, that's a niche market?
>
> When you are rushed into ER and they hook you up to this vitals monitor
> https://www.welchallyn.com/content/welchallyn/americas/en/products/categories/patient-monitoring/vital-signs-devices/connex-spot-monitor.html
> while trying to save your life that is a niche market? Yeah, I helped bring that one to life too.
>
> When you hop behind the wheel of a Ford, any ford made since Microsoft automotive got fired over their Sync debacle, the dash controls and infotainment system are a niche market?
>
> When a farmer gets into the cab of a John Deere tractor and has everything on this display
> https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.tractorfan.nl%2Fgroot%2Fj%2Fjohn-deere%2F535799-intreur-john-deere.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
> that's a niche market?
>
> When Ford and half a dozen other automobile OEMs tell you to "download our app for your vehicle" so you can remote unlock, remote start, and God knows what else that's a niche? Roughly half of these buyers will have an imbecile phone and download the app.
>
> https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-sales-numbers/ford-sales-numbers/ford-f-series-sales-numbers/>> I just want to find out your definition of a "niche"
Niche technology does not mean used for non-important applications
or used for applications distributed in small numbers.

Niche technology mean that it is only used by a tiny fraction
of developers.

That is the case for Qt and wxWidget.

And the examples of their usage does not contradict that.

Arne

On 7/4/2022 7:08 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> https://healthitsecurity.com/news/microsoft-data-breach-exposes-38m-records-containing-pii
>
> There are lots of security breach lawsuits they can avoid by becoming a desktop on top of the Linux distro of user's choice.

What would having the expected users of a web service use
a Windows desktop on top of a Linux kernel compared
to running Windows desktop on top of the NT kernel
help with a web service vulnerability running on a server??

Arne

On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 2:19:47 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/4/2022 6:33 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 8:33:33 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> On 7/3/2022 10:14 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 1:50:47 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >>>> On 6/19/2022 10:37 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 5:49:30 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >>>>>> On 6/18/2022 11:53 AM, seasoned_geek wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 10:32:21 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 6/17/2022 11:00 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 17/06/2022 14:33, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >>>
> >>> This shows just how little you know.
> >>>
> >>> The __purchased__ item is the Windows desktop and it runs on the free Linux distro of your choice. Microsoft and Windows are no longer liable for any network breaches because 100% of the network code is OpenSource Linux which they have no control over per the license agreement.
> >> If MS sell an installable product with a Linux kernel and a
> >> Windows desktop then they may be able to sell it because
> >> their customer do not care whether it has a NT kernel or
> >> a Linux kernel, but they would still be responsible for
> >> the product.
> >>
> >> If MS tell customers to buy or download a Unix distro,
> >> install it and get it running on their PC and then buy
> >> and install a Windows desktop, then they would not be
> >> responsible for the Linux pieces, but they would not get
> >> any customers - as that is not what Windows users expect.
> >
> > Seriously? Did you think about that before you typed it?
> >
> > Other than a few hard core coding geeks, what Microsoft "user" installs Windows?
> >
> > They go to a Big Box store, or a Web site. They buy a computer "with
> > Windows pre-installed." It asks them for a user name and password at
> > first boot. They have no idea how it got installed and more
> > importantly they don't care.
> Some people prefer a clean install over a factory install, but
> yes that is only the few.
>
> But a lot of people actually upgrade Windows on old PC's today.
> That used to be rare because people bought new PC's every 3-4
> years, but no longer.
>
> Regarding the new pre-installed systems, then that is certainly
> extremely common, but it is not clear either.
>
> Let us say that the consumer goes to Best Buy and buy a HP
> laptop with pre-installed Windows.
>
> You say that HP is responsible similar to the Ford logo, but in
> the end MS is responsible for their software.
>
> What happens if MS doesn't like that responsibility and tell HP
> to install Linux and a MS product on top of that and a problem
> is found in Linux?
>
> It seems like HP will end up with the monkey then. But unless
> HP is willing to take on a risk that MS is not, then HP will
> not accept that.
>
> Laptops without pre-installed OS????
>
> Arne

You obviously don't own HP or Lenovo products today. I'm typing this response in the early morning hours on my Lenovo laptop. It's a T440s and a looong way from new, but I love it mostly for how incredible it is to type on.

This is one of the incredibly few machines I allow a virus known as Windows to run. Lenovo Solution Center is installed on it. This is the Lenovo support tool for "optimizing" your computer, push marketing of upgrades, Lenovo diagnostics, firmware updates, and driver updates. Half the time it will tell you to install Windows updates (actually do it for you after you click OK) long before Windows update flags anything. I think there is even a "live chat" with support.

I had Windows on one HP desktop. They pre-load HP-Assistant. Pretty much the same thing. As I recall HP-Assistant was a tiny bit better. On the back end you could group all of your printers and computers into one "desktop" display. But, it was still diagnostics software, push marketing, firmware & driver upgrades, along with Windows updates.

A raw Windows whatever install doesn't come with all of the software preloaded at the factory. With HP and Lenovo in particular it is damned dicey to perform a raw install on their new hardware. As a general rule Microsoft doesn't yet have the wireless network drivers. Been there, done that. When it is one of those "thin" modern things without a network jack, you are royally F-ed. you have to identify the driver from another machine, download it to a thumb drive and try to install. Guess what? There are dependencies that aren't bundled into the driver because the update process can automatically download them . . .