https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/

There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.

On Friday, July 8, 2022 at 10:21:06 AM UTC-4, Ian Miller wrote:
> https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>
> There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.

And me.

It's not so much that I like Macro32 (ok, I do, a little bit - to pretend to have full control).
My main reason for welcoming it is that it is the only, free, always there, 'compiler'
I occasionally write/wrote little handy tools, most for file analysis/fixes.
A text file with the program or Email copy and past of the code is often the easiest, sometimes the only way to get it on a customer box.
No, Macro is not suitable to code up an accounting system, but there is still a time and place for it.

Ditto for DCL - 'programs'.

Hein

On Friday, July 8, 2022 at 11:00:09 AM UTC-4, Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote:
> It's not so much that I like Macro32 (ok, I do, a little bit - to pretend to have full control).
> My main reason for welcoming it is that it is the only, free, always there, 'compiler'
> I occasionally write/wrote little handy tools, most for file analysis/fixes.
> A text file with the program or Email copy and past of the code is often the easiest, sometimes the only way to get it on a customer box.
> No, Macro is not suitable to code up an accounting system, but there is still a time and place for it.
>
> Ditto for DCL - 'programs'.
>

Which is why it would be really nice if OpenVMS shipped with Python.

On 08/07/2022 17:37, David Jones wrote:
> On Friday, July 8, 2022 at 11:00:09 AM UTC-4, Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote:
>> It's not so much that I like Macro32 (ok, I do, a little bit - to pretend to have full control).
>> My main reason for welcoming it is that it is the only, free, always there, 'compiler'
>> I occasionally write/wrote little handy tools, most for file analysis/fixes.
>> A text file with the program or Email copy and past of the code is often the easiest, sometimes the only way to get it on a customer box.
>> No, Macro is not suitable to code up an accounting system, but there is still a time and place for it.
>>
>> Ditto for DCL - 'programs'.
>>
>
> Which is why it would be really nice if OpenVMS shipped with Python.

and also raises the question as to which Open source products are
available on X86

--
Chris

In article <5eb21284-ac77-4313-bed5-665d6578ee26n@googlegroups.com>, Ian Miller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>
>There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.

Yeah, but I won't have the Micro$oft loader or VM to run it.

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

On 7/8/22 4:50 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <5eb21284-ac77-4313-bed5-665d6578ee26n@googlegroups.com>, Ian Miller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>> https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>>
>> There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.
>
> Yeah, but I won't have the Micro$oft loader or VM to run it.

What? You can run it on a VM on Linux or macOS.

In article <taa926$qlsg$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>On 7/8/22 4:50 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <5eb21284-ac77-4313-bed5-665d6578ee26n@googlegroups.com>, Ian Miller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>>> https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>>>
>>> There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.
>>
>> Yeah, but I won't have the Micro$oft loader or VM to run it.
>
>What? You can run it on a VM on Linux or macOS.

Bare metal?

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

On 7/8/22 5:11 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <taa926$qlsg$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>> On 7/8/22 4:50 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <5eb21284-ac77-4313-bed5-665d6578ee26n@googlegroups.com>, Ian Miller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>>>> https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>>>>
>>>> There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.
>>>
>>> Yeah, but I won't have the Micro$oft loader or VM to run it.
>>
>> What? You can run it on a VM on Linux or macOS.
>
> Bare metal?

At some point, yes, Not currently. But there is no "Micro$oft loader"
involved unless you want a Windows host as opposed to the alternatives.

In article <taab7l$qrk7$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>
>On 7/8/22 5:11 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <taa926$qlsg$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>>> On 7/8/22 4:50 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article <5eb21284-ac77-4313-bed5-665d6578ee26n@googlegroups.com>, Ian Miller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>>>>> https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>>>>>
>>>>> There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, but I won't have the Micro$oft loader or VM to run it.
>>>
>>> What? You can run it on a VM on Linux or macOS.
>>
>> Bare metal?
>
>At some point, yes, Not currently. But there is no "Micro$oft loader"
>involved unless you want a Windows host as opposed to the alternatives.

What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
cost meS?

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

On 7/8/2022 7:54 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <taab7l$qrk7$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>> On 7/8/22 5:11 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <taa926$qlsg$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>>>> On 7/8/22 4:50 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article <5eb21284-ac77-4313-bed5-665d6578ee26n@googlegroups.com>, Ian Miller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>>>>>> https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, but I won't have the Micro$oft loader or VM to run it.
>>>>
>>>> What? You can run it on a VM on Linux or macOS.
>>>
>>> Bare metal?
>>
>> At some point, yes, Not currently. But there is no "Micro$oft loader"
>> involved unless you want a Windows host as opposed to the alternatives.
>
> What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
> cost meS?

You can buy PC's without Windows many places.

I think Best Buy only sell with Windows. But you can get
a PC for like 400 dollars. And if one can believe the internet
then MS only gets around 15 dollars of it.

Arne

On 7/8/2022 7:54 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <taab7l$qrk7$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>>
>> On 7/8/22 5:11 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <taa926$qlsg$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>>>> On 7/8/22 4:50 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article <5eb21284-ac77-4313-bed5-665d6578ee26n@googlegroups.com>, Ian Miller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>>>>>> https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, but I won't have the Micro$oft loader or VM to run it.
>>>>
>>>> What? You can run it on a VM on Linux or macOS.
>>>
>>> Bare metal?
>>
>> At some point, yes, Not currently. But there is no "Micro$oft loader"
>> involved unless you want a Windows host as opposed to the alternatives.
>
> What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
> cost meS?
>

The first question will be, what VM software will you use.

VMWARE didn't like my network card.

Inquire first, be sure all will work, before purchasing.

I have used Virtual Box, but, I'm not very proficient with it. I understand the
advantages of using a VM. I just don't want to spend time learning to use a VM.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Den 2022-07-09 kl. 01:54, skrev VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG:
> In article <taab7l$qrk7$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>>
>> On 7/8/22 5:11 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <taa926$qlsg$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>>>> On 7/8/22 4:50 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article <5eb21284-ac77-4313-bed5-665d6578ee26n@googlegroups.com>, Ian Miller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>>>>>> https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, but I won't have the Micro$oft loader or VM to run it.
>>>>
>>>> What? You can run it on a VM on Linux or macOS.
>>>
>>> Bare metal?
>>
>> At some point, yes, Not currently. But there is no "Micro$oft loader"
>> involved unless you want a Windows host as opposed to the alternatives.
>
> What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
> cost meS?
>

The cost? Probably way, way less then an Alpha or Itanium box...

On 7/8/2022 8:52 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 7/8/2022 7:54 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <taab7l$qrk7$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry"
>> <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>>> On 7/8/22 5:11 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article <taa926$qlsg$1@dont-email.me>, "Craig A. Berry"
>>>> <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> writes:
>>>>> On 7/8/22 4:50 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>> In article
>>>>>> <5eb21284-ac77-4313-bed5-665d6578ee26n@googlegroups.com>, Ian
>>>>>> Miller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>>>>>>> https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2022-07-08-state-of-the-92-release-ready/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's MACRO32 compiler so Brian will be happy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, but I won't have the Micro$oft loader or VM to run it.
>>>>>
>>>>> What?  You can run it on a VM on Linux or macOS.
>>>>
>>>> Bare metal?
>>>
>>> At some point, yes,  Not currently.  But there is no "Micro$oft loader"
>>> involved unless you want a Windows host as opposed to the alternatives.
>>
>> What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of
>> running OpenVM
>> cost meS?
>
> The first question will be, what VM software will you use.
>
> VMWARE didn't like my network card.
>
> Inquire first, be sure all will work, before purchasing.
>
> I have used Virtual Box, but, I'm not very proficient with it.  I
> understand the advantages of using a VM.  I just don't want to spend
> time learning to use a VM.

Re VMWare there is a big difference between VMWare player
(VM's running on Linux or Windows) and VMWare ESXi that runs
on metal.

I would expect development to use Player and
production to use ESXi.

ESXi can be a bit picky about the hardware. But that is
somewhat to be expected from "metal" and "production".

Arne

> Re VMWare there is a big difference between VMWare player
> (VM's running on Linux or Windows) [...]

Or VMware Fusion Player on a Mac (Intel CPU), which is where I've
been finding grounds for complaints about E9.2.

Re: V9.2: I haven't yet noticed any announcement about "Community"
access. "distributed to customers through the Service Portal" doesn't
sound to me as if it includes peons like me.

On 7/9/2022 6:22 PM, Steven Schweda wrote:
>> Re VMWare there is a big difference between VMWare player
>> (VM's running on Linux or Windows) [...]
>
> Or VMware Fusion Player on a Mac (Intel CPU), which is where I've
> been finding grounds for complaints about E9.2.
>
> Re: V9.2: I haven't yet noticed any announcement about "Community"
> access. "distributed to customers through the Service Portal" doesn't
> sound to me as if it includes peons like me.
>

If you develop software, and I'd guess working on ZIP would fit that definition,
then why don't you just sign up as an ISV. You'd get the latest, and VSI would
talk to you.

Ask Mark Daniels ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

> [...] why don't you just sign up as an ISV[?]

When last I looked, one needed to be a real business to qualify.

On the bright side, I was let in on the E9.2 field test, so, as in
many cases, many things are possible.

On 2022-07-08, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG <VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:
>
> What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
> cost meS?
>

Time has moved on Brian and VMS is no longer master of its own destiny.

Both it and you need to be able to work with the expected hardware and
software of today, not the hardware and software of 20 years ago.

You may think you are being clever with the above comments, and such
comments may have been "cute" 10-15 years ago, but today it just projects
a rather unprofessional and out-of-touch image.

Rather than one of the above boxes however, I would follow VSI's advice
on what hardware they recommend to host your VMs running VMS. For example,
take note of the fact you can only use Intel CPUs for now and cannot use
AMD CPUs. (Unless that has changed _very_ recently).

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 7/11/2022 2:03 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-08, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG <VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:
>>
>> What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
>> cost meS?
>>
>
> Time has moved on Brian and VMS is no longer master of its own destiny.
>
> Both it and you need to be able to work with the expected hardware and
> software of today, not the hardware and software of 20 years ago.
>
> You may think you are being clever with the above comments, and such
> comments may have been "cute" 10-15 years ago, but today it just projects
> a rather unprofessional and out-of-touch image.
>
> Rather than one of the above boxes however, I would follow VSI's advice
> on what hardware they recommend to host your VMs running VMS. For example,
> take note of the fact you can only use Intel CPUs for now and cannot use
> AMD CPUs. (Unless that has changed _very_ recently).
>
> Simon.
>

You maybe getting mixed up. Running a VM doesn't care about mfg. Or maybe I'm
mixed up.

But the advice is good. VSI has mentioned some HW they intend to support. If
such a box could be found, cheap, then down the road one might be able to run
VMS on the box, not a VM. For now, I'd suggest keeping the cost as low as possible.

Since most native compilers aren't yet available I'm not too enthused.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2022-07-11, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> On 7/11/2022 2:03 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> Rather than one of the above boxes however, I would follow VSI's advice
>> on what hardware they recommend to host your VMs running VMS. For example,
>> take note of the fact you can only use Intel CPUs for now and cannot use
>> AMD CPUs. (Unless that has changed _very_ recently).
>>
>
> You maybe getting mixed up. Running a VM doesn't care about mfg. Or maybe I'm
> mixed up.
>

Do the VM environments emulate missing hardware instructions with reasonable
performance levels ?

For example, what happens when the VM software is being run on a box without
PCID support ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

In article <tahokr$1ou3j$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:

> > What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
> > cost meS?

Why does hardware without Windows installed have to pay anything to
MicroSoft?

On 7/11/2022 4:25 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <tahokr$1ou3j$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
> <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>
>>> What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
>>> cost meS?
>
> Why does hardware without Windows installed have to pay anything to
> MicroSoft?

Simon didn't write that.

--
-- Rob

On 7/11/2022 2:26 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-11, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 7/11/2022 2:03 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> Rather than one of the above boxes however, I would follow VSI's advice
>>> on what hardware they recommend to host your VMs running VMS. For example,
>>> take note of the fact you can only use Intel CPUs for now and cannot use
>>> AMD CPUs. (Unless that has changed _very_ recently).
>>>
>>
>> You maybe getting mixed up. Running a VM doesn't care about mfg. Or maybe I'm
>> mixed up.
>
> Do the VM environments emulate missing hardware instructions with reasonable
> performance levels ?
>
> For example, what happens when the VM software is being run on a box without
> PCID support ?

I don't think such emulators emulate anything in the CPU itself.

But they emulate disks and NIC's.

Arne

On 11/07/2022 21:25, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <tahokr$1ou3j$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
> <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>
>>> What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
>>> cost meS?
>
> Why does hardware without Windows installed have to pay anything to
> MicroSoft?
>

Volume manufacturers of PCs have often been able to get significantly
cheaper MS licence prices by committing to install and ship Windows on
every "PC" they sell. If they don't do that, their overall cost of
Windows will increase (and maybe they'll get audited...).

Sometimes this just applied to specific models/ranges, e.g. an HPQ
Proliant, being a server and with OS software licences often being sold
separately, typically weren't subject to this "Microsoft tax".

In contrast, a consumer PC such as an HPQ Presario desktop or laptop (or
modern equivalent) would generally be expected to be used with Windows,
and thus the manufacturer may find it worthwhile to agree to pay for
(and install) Windows on every Presario (or whatever) that they ship.

I don't know if this principle still applies, but it did when I followed
these things. It wasn't often talked about in public though.

In article <tai4p9$1qa36$1@dont-email.me>, "Robert A. Brooks" <FIRST.LAST@vmssoftware.com> writes:
> On 7/11/2022 4:25 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> > In article <tahokr$1ou3j$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
> > <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
> >
> >>> What BestBuy PoS X86 box, that won't carry Billy Tax, capable of running OpenVM
> >>> cost meS?
> >
> > Why does hardware without Windows installed have to pay anything to
> > MicroSoft?
>
>
> Simon didn't write that.
>
>
> --
> -- Rob

I didn't claim that he did. The text he wrote is marked as a quotation,
using a standard format which has been around for decades. And I'm not
claiming that you wrote what I wrote or what VAXman wrote because you
quoted us. I don't think that anyone is confused.

On 11/07/2022 19:26, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-11, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 7/11/2022 2:03 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> Rather than one of the above boxes however, I would follow VSI's advice
>>> on what hardware they recommend to host your VMs running VMS. For example,
>>> take note of the fact you can only use Intel CPUs for now and cannot use
>>> AMD CPUs. (Unless that has changed _very_ recently).
>>>
>>
>> You maybe getting mixed up. Running a VM doesn't care about mfg. Or maybe I'm
>> mixed up.
>>
>
> Do the VM environments emulate missing hardware instructions with reasonable
> performance levels ?

With current Hypervisors, I believe the answer is "No" The OS only sees
the features a CPU has.

>
> For example, what happens when the VM software is being run on a box without
> PCID support ?
>

The OS won't be able to use it. Its been a while since I managed a big
VM "cluster" but I seem to recall there could be issues with CPU
generations and stepping...

> Simon.
>

Dave