While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.

So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
say, a USB interface ?

How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?

For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
ask the question anyway.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Den 2022-07-21 kl. 14:19, skrev Simon Clubley:
> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>
> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
> say, a USB interface ?
>
> How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?
>
> For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
> my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
> ask the question anyway.
>
> Simon.
>

Are you planning to start up production?
Or is it just too warm in the UK... :-)

My vote is "NO".
What could the world market be? 10 units?

I really hope that VSI is using it's resources
on real needs and problems.

In article <tbbg81$2bnsg$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:

> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>
> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
> say, a USB interface ?

Any interface which will work with VMS running on bare metal x86.

> How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?

I would pay any reasonable price. :-)

> For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
> my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
> ask the question anyway.

To me, "full" and "PC keyboard" in an oxymoron, since a PC keyboard is
missing some keys.

In article <tbblia$29em8$1@dont-email.me>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=c3=b6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>
writes:

> My vote is "NO".
> What could the world market be? 10 units?

Should I quote Thomas J. Watson here?

I would buy 10 just for myself.

On 7/21/2022 8:19 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>
> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
> say, a USB interface ?
>
> How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?
>
> For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
> my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
> ask the question anyway.
>
> Simon.
>

It is not really VSI's problem, so, why would they get involved?

People who do a lot of typing learn their keyboard, and, if it changes, they
become much less proficient. Back when I was doing development I swear, my
fingers were faster than my brain, or, at least it seemed that way. The DEC
keyboard was part of that capability, not just what keys were available, but the
feel of the keys. If anything, it was more the feel.

The DEC keyboards were very good, but we're now living in the age of "lowest
common denominator", and that sort of sucks, as we're capable of so much more.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

In article <tbbg81$2bnsg$1@dont-email.me>,
clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:

> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard
> with, say, a USB interface ?

The easy way to get the major part of that would be a Unicomp with custom
keycaps:

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD

John

Den 2022-07-21 kl. 16:05, skrev Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):
> In article <tbblia$29em8$1@dont-email.me>,
> =?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=c3=b6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>
> writes:
>
>> My vote is "NO".
>> What could the world market be? 10 units?
>
> Should I quote Thomas J. Watson here?
>
> I would buy 10 just for myself.
>

Yes, that was the 10 I meant...

Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:

> What could the world market be? 10 units?

I could supply half of that with old AT and PS/2 LK250s :-)

On 2022-07-21, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
> Den 2022-07-21 kl. 14:19, skrev Simon Clubley:
>> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
>> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>>
>> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
>> say, a USB interface ?
>>
>> How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?
>>
>> For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
>> my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
>> ask the question anyway.
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>
> Are you planning to start up production?

No. :-) The idea just popped into my head when I re-read my what's next
posting so I thought I would ask it.

> Or is it just too warm in the UK... :-)
>

Cooled down now, but it was dangerously hot for a couple of days.

I hate even normal hot days big time. :-(

I can easily do 30km+ with a full backpack on a cool day with reasonable
tracks underneath, but you are lucky to get 10-15km out of me on a normal
hot day with no cover, even with plenty of hydration. :-(

I didn't even think of going outside during lunch in the heat we had
this week it was that bad.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-07-21, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
> Den 2022-07-21 kl. 16:05, skrev Phillip Helbig (undress to reply):
>> In article <tbblia$29em8$1@dont-email.me>,
>> =?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=c3=b6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>
>> writes:
>>
>>> My vote is "NO".
>>> What could the world market be? 10 units?
>>
>> Should I quote Thomas J. Watson here?
>>
>> I would buy 10 just for myself.
>>
>
> Yes, that was the 10 I meant...
>

You've been spending too much time listening to me Jan-Erik... :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-07-21, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
> In article <tbbg81$2bnsg$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
><clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>
>> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
>> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>>
>> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
>> say, a USB interface ?
>
> Any interface which will work with VMS running on bare metal x86.
>

Then that's a USB interface.

>> How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?
>
> I would pay any reasonable price. :-)
>

Your idea of reasonable and a manufacturer's idea of reasonable may not
be the same thing. :-)

>> For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
>> my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
>> ask the question anyway.
>
> To me, "full" and "PC keyboard" in an oxymoron, since a PC keyboard is
> missing some keys.
>

The only thing missing for me is delete word and I never used that.

I also find a good-quality PC keyboard to be more ergonomic than how
I remember the old DEC keyboards. Hopefully, if anyone did do a DEC
layout keyboard they would use modern ergonomic standards. :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-07-21, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> It is not really VSI's problem, so, why would they get involved?
>

Because you need a minimum commitment before it's economical to produce
a batch of keyboards and if VSI got enough commitments from customers
they could get a percentage of the sales from the keyboards sold.

However, there's probably not enough people still using DEC layout keyboards
to make that practical, but once the idea occurred to me, I thought I would
ask it anyway. :-)

> People who do a lot of typing learn their keyboard, and, if it changes, they
> become much less proficient. Back when I was doing development I swear, my
> fingers were faster than my brain, or, at least it seemed that way. The DEC
> keyboard was part of that capability, not just what keys were available, but the
> feel of the keys. If anything, it was more the feel.
>
> The DEC keyboards were very good, but we're now living in the age of "lowest
> common denominator", and that sort of sucks, as we're capable of so much more.
>

You can purchase a range of PC keyboards, including high-quality ones,
and my perception of those is that they have better ergonomics than the
old DEC keyboards I remember.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-07-21, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <tbbg81$2bnsg$1@dont-email.me>,
> clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:
>
>> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard
>> with, say, a USB interface ?
>
> The easy way to get the major part of that would be a Unicomp with custom
> keycaps:
>
> https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD
>

Interesting. There are clearly people out there who are very, very,
serious about their keyboards. :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 7/21/22 14:09, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-21, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <tbbg81$2bnsg$1@dont-email.me>,
>> clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:
>>
>>> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard
>>> with, say, a USB interface ?
>>
>> The easy way to get the major part of that would be a Unicomp with custom
>> keycaps:
>>
>> https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD
>>
>
> Interesting. There are clearly people out there who are very, very,
> serious about their keyboards. :-)
>

Gamers certainly are....

:-)

bill

On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 5:19:16 AM UTC-7, Simon Clubley wrote:
> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
> say, a USB interface ?

Some time ago after a question about keyboards, maybe not here, I wondered
about them and e-mailed a company that makes keys with little LCD displays.
That way you can make a programmable custom keyboard, with any keys
you want. The price is still a little too high, though.

I believe that there are already companies that will make custom keycaps,
and sell the keyboard to go with them. There is an NRE charge, so it is
cheaper for each if you can make a large order.

Den 2022-07-21 kl. 20:02, skrev Simon Clubley:
> On 2022-07-21, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> It is not really VSI's problem, so, why would they get involved?
>>
>
> Because you need a minimum commitment before it's economical to produce
> a batch of keyboards and if VSI got enough commitments from customers
> they could get a percentage of the sales from the keyboards sold.
>
> However, there's probably not enough people still using DEC layout keyboards
> to make that practical,..

Some decades ago, even end user had VT-terminals and VT-applications.

Today, I'd say that the end-user (if there even are any) of an VMS
system, doesn't use VT-based tools to access the applications. If they
even use interactive applications having an VMS system in the back-end,
the applications are more likely to be web-based. And then, a standard
PC keyboard on whatever end-user client system you have, is more logical.

When it comes to developers and sysmgr's, anyone working professional
has a need for the usual setup of office tools, so you already have
an standard PC anyway. Just use it (and forget about DELW).

If you come running with requirements for special hardware just to
access that VMS box, you are probably just pushing your VMS systems
closer to the door...

Jan-Erik.

>
> Simon.
>

On 7/21/2022 8:19 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>
> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
> say, a USB interface ?
>
> How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?
>
> For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
> my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
> ask the question anyway.

1000 x NO

The S in VSI does not stand for hardware.

VSI is trying to move VMS from special hardware to standard hardware.

The typical VMS user of the future (probably also today!) will access
the VMS system from a general purpose PC also used for other things.

Arne

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:19:13 -0000 (UTC), Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:

>While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
>I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.

YES!

>So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
>say, a USB interface ?

YES!

>How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?
>
>For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
>my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
>ask the question anyway.
>
>Simon.

Sorted, really - petition Unicomp:

The best of all possible worlds: The best of the IBM keyboard
production values with the DEC layouts.

Not made in New Hampshire, but close enough.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/

May it come to pass, and not before time.

PS: Do check out this thing of Joy and Beauty (and abstract Lexical
Discourse. ;-) ):

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/00UA41P4A

On 7/21/2022 1:56 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-21, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
>> In article <tbbg81$2bnsg$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
>> <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>>
>>> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
>>> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>>>
>>> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
>>> say, a USB interface ?
>>
>> Any interface which will work with VMS running on bare metal x86.
>>
>
> Then that's a USB interface.
>
>>> How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?
>>
>> I would pay any reasonable price. :-)
>>
>
> Your idea of reasonable and a manufacturer's idea of reasonable may not
> be the same thing. :-)
>
>>> For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
>>> my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
>>> ask the question anyway.
>>
>> To me, "full" and "PC keyboard" in an oxymoron, since a PC keyboard is
>> missing some keys.
>>
>
> The only thing missing for me is delete word and I never used that.
>
> I also find a good-quality PC keyboard to be more ergonomic than how
> I remember the old DEC keyboards. Hopefully, if anyone did do a DEC
> layout keyboard they would use modern ergonomic standards. :-)
>
> Simon.
>

The VT420 and VT500 keyboards were pretty good "modern ergonomic standards".
Earlier ones, not so much.

While I don't get out much, and haven't seen everything, nothing I've seen since
matches the VT420 and VT500 keyboards. YMMV.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 7/21/2022 2:02 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-21, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> It is not really VSI's problem, so, why would they get involved?
>>
>
> Because you need a minimum commitment before it's economical to produce
> a batch of keyboards and if VSI got enough commitments from customers
> they could get a percentage of the sales from the keyboards sold.
>
> However, there's probably not enough people still using DEC layout keyboards
> to make that practical, but once the idea occurred to me, I thought I would
> ask it anyway. :-)
>
>> People who do a lot of typing learn their keyboard, and, if it changes, they
>> become much less proficient. Back when I was doing development I swear, my
>> fingers were faster than my brain, or, at least it seemed that way. The DEC
>> keyboard was part of that capability, not just what keys were available, but the
>> feel of the keys. If anything, it was more the feel.
>>
>> The DEC keyboards were very good, but we're now living in the age of "lowest
>> common denominator", and that sort of sucks, as we're capable of so much more.
>>
>
> You can purchase a range of PC keyboards, including high-quality ones,
> and my perception of those is that they have better ergonomics than the
> old DEC keyboards I remember.
>
> Simon.
>

Are you remembering VT420 and VT500 keyboards?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

In article <bb62ef9a-c9cd-4294-88fa-bb598b866db2n@googlegroups.com>,
gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> writes:

> On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 5:19:16 AM UTC-7, Simon Clubley wrote:
> > While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
> > I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>
> > So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
> > say, a USB interface ?
>
> Some time ago after a question about keyboards, maybe not here, I wondered
> about them and e-mailed a company that makes keys with little LCD displays.
> That way you can make a programmable custom keyboard, with any keys
> you want. The price is still a little too high, though.
>
> I believe that there are already companies that will make custom keycaps,
> and sell the keyboard to go with them. There is an NRE charge, so it is
> cheaper for each if you can make a large order.

I could type with no key labelling at all, but they have to be in the
right place.

On 07/21/22 13:19, Simon Clubley wrote:
> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>
> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
> say, a USB interface ?
>
> How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?
>
> For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
> my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
> ask the question anyway.
>
> Simon.
>

Dec did a lot of research on ergonomics during the design phase of
early keyboards such as the LK201. They do have just the right
ergonomic feel and key layout for programming work, edt usage etc.
PC keyboards of the time could be pretty clunky and the overcenter
spring types from IBM may have seemed like a good idea, but a real
pain over all day periods of use. Only disadvantage of the LK201 was
the physical size, but not such an issue in the days of less
cluttered desktops. Later dec keyboards aare cheap, chearful and
pretty, tacky, with a few exceptions. Used and LK250 j=here for
years, but not compact.

Finally settled on Sun usb keyboards here, very similar look and feel
to some of the Apple types, but excellent feel and no rsi issues...

Chris

On 2022-07-21, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> Are you remembering VT420 and VT500 keyboards?
>

Those are among the ones I remember. I remember them as better than the
earlier DEC keyboards but still not as good as a good quality PC keyboard.

I moved from any remaining DEC keyboards to good quality PC keyboards
about 15-20 years ago (they were Logitech keyboards at the time) and
I still have the memory of how "better" the PC keyboard felt.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 7/21/2022 6:10 PM, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:

>
> Sorted, really - petition Unicomp:
>
> The best of all possible worlds: The best of the IBM keyboard
> production values with the DEC layouts.
>
> Not made in New Hampshire, but close enough.
>
> https://www.pckeyboard.com/
>
> May it come to pass, and not before time.
>
> PS: Do check out this thing of Joy and Beauty (and abstract Lexical
> Discourse. ;-) ):
>
> https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/00UA41P4A

I've said it before but nobody seems to hear. Matias Tactile Pro Mac version. Has all the Keypad keys. Has 18 Function keys (instead of 20 - close)
http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/

Image: http://matias.ca/tactilepro4/viewer/2_th.jpg

--
John H. Reinhardt

On 7/21/22 05:19, Simon Clubley wrote:
> While reading the list of what people are likely to ask for next in VMS,
> I realised that some people missed the real DEC keyboards.
>
> So, should VSI commission the production of a DEC layout keyboard with,
> say, a USB interface ?
>
> How many of you would be interested in that and how much would you pay ?
>
> For me, I've no interest in moving from a full PC keyboard as that _is_
> my "DEC" keyboard, and has been for a long time, but I thought I would
> ask the question anyway.
>
> Simon.
>
While trying to resuscitate an LK464 keyboard that had drowned in
coffee, I notice the circuit board said "Cherry" on it. I called the
company and got someone technical and they said yes they could restart
production on them but the minimum order was, as I remember, 10,000.

3Dconnection has a keyboard that has enough keys and is supposed to be
programmable, but the driver is Windoze only. Not an option for me as my
company is 100% Linux or Mac.

Jeff