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devel / comp.arch / Re: other than Windows 11

SubjectAuthor
* Windows 11MitchAlsup
+* Re: Windows 11Quadibloc
|`- Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
+* Re: Windows 11Josh Vanderhoof
|+- Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
|`* Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
| `- Re: Windows 11Terje Mathisen
`* Re: Windows 11Stephen Fuld
 `* Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
  +* Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
  |+- Re: Windows 11Stephen Fuld
  |+- Re: Windows 11Quadibloc
  |+* Re: Windows 11<zoot
  ||`* Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
  || `* Re: Windows 11James Van Buskirk
  ||  `* Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   +* Re: Windows 11James Van Buskirk
  ||   |+* Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   ||`- Re: Windows 11<zoot
  ||   |`* Re: Windows 11Michael S
  ||   | `* Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |  `* Re: other than Windows 11John Levine
  ||   |   `* Re: other than Windows 11James Van Buskirk
  ||   |    `* Re: other than Windows 11Quadibloc
  ||   |     `* Re: other than Windows 11Terje Mathisen
  ||   |      `* Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |       `* Re: other than Windows 11James Van Buskirk
  ||   |        `* Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         +* Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         |`* Re: other than Windows 11Terje Mathisen
  ||   |         | `* Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         |  `* Re: other than Windows 11Josh Vanderhoof
  ||   |         |   `* Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         |    `* Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         |     +- Re: other than Windows 11Brett
  ||   |         |     `* Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         |      +* Re: other than Windows 11Thomas Koenig
  ||   |         |      |+* Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         |      ||`- Re: other than Windows 11Thomas Koenig
  ||   |         |      |`* Re: other than Windows 11Scott Smader
  ||   |         |      | +* Re: other than Windows 11Thomas Koenig
  ||   |         |      | |+* Re: other than Windows 11Ivan Godard
  ||   |         |      | ||`* Re: other than Windows 11Scott Smader
  ||   |         |      | || +- Re: other than Windows 11Scott Smader
  ||   |         |      | || `* Re: other than Windows 11Thomas Koenig
  ||   |         |      | ||  `- Re: other than Windows 11Scott Smader
  ||   |         |      | |`- Re: other than Windows 11Andreas Eder
  ||   |         |      | `- Re: other than Windows 11David Brown
  ||   |         |      `- Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         +* Re: other than Windows 11Brett
  ||   |         |`* Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         | `* Re: other than Windows 11Brett
  ||   |         |  `- Re: other than Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   |         +- Re: other than Windows 11Michael S
  ||   |         `- Re: other than Windows 11James Van Buskirk
  ||   +* Re: Windows 11Terje Mathisen
  ||   |`* Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   | `* Re: Windows 11Terje Mathisen
  ||   |  `- Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
  ||   `- Re: Windows 11Quadibloc
  |`* Re: Windows 11Jeremy Linton
  | `* Re: Windows 11MitchAlsup
  |  `- Re: Windows 11Jeremy Linton
  `- Re: Windows 11Terje Mathisen

Pages:123
Re: other than Windows 11

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Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
From: MitchAl...@aol.com (MitchAlsup)
Injection-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:03:34 +0000
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 by: MitchAlsup - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:03 UTC

On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 11:47:15 AM UTC-6, George Neuner wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:41:44 -0800 (PST), MitchAlsup
> <Mitch...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 5:57:28 PM UTC-6, MitchAlsup wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 5:19:02 PM UTC-6, Josh Vanderhoof wrote:
> >> > MitchAlsup <Mitch...@aol.com> writes:
> >
> >> Thanks I had forgotten about that.
> >> <
> >> Today's status: I have avoided charmap today, just copying the special characters
> >> I use from other places in my documents. adding a word to auto spell checker did
> >> not results in slowdown.
> ><
> >Well, I managed to kill OLE with a handful of mouse klicks and a couple of control keys
> >at the same time. Word no longer has access to things like cut and paste !!!!! but Corel
> >draw does.
> ><
> >Trying to figure out how to reinstall from zero.
> I haven't followed this whole thread, so perhaps this post is useless
> to you, but:
>
> Thus far I have only played with Windows 11 ... my main Windows
> systems still are w10 ... but I have encountered a whole lot of
> strange behavior: slowdowns, lockups and even occasional crashes,
> trying to use Vista/XP era software on Windows 10.
>
> Perhaps you are using old(er) software that's having problems?
>
Some of the SW is from 1997 the rest is from 2003
>
> Windows 11 appears to do a whole lot of "settle in" auto-tuning after
> it is first installed. And then it watches everything you do and
> attempts to anticipate your usage patterns / preload stuff it thinks
> you're going to use, etc. There are tweaks to turn off that sh_t.
>
> I saw where you said updates are current: I'm sure you are aware that
> there has been for a while an issue with storage drivers that
> drasticly reduced performance of ... primarily Intel based SSDs ...
> but other brands of SSDs and even some HDDs as well. Hopefully this
> has not also been part of your problem.
<
Yes, this is new, this system has SSD that I use for OS and applications
all my data is over on other disks (some of them old, too.) I am working
on moving swap to a different disk that SSD, too. But with 64GB main
memory swap should not be seeing much write activity.
<
But, all in all, after reload from cloud, it seems a lot more stable and
hand-eye coordination is better but still not as good as W7.
>
> George

Re: other than Windows 11

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 20:44:35 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Wed, 23 Feb 2022 20:44 UTC

George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> schrieb:
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:03:33 -0800 (PST), MitchAlsup
><MitchAlsup@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 11:47:15 AM UTC-6, George Neuner wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps you are using old(er) software that's having problems?
>>>
>>Some of the SW is from 1997 the rest is from 2003
>
> I know a number of people who suffer recurrent issues with MSOffice on
> Windows 10. I think the oldest version any of them are using is 2013.
>
> For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
> to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
> that more than well enough.

Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
- just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.

I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
it to a file and load it. Bah.

And yes, the new "let's save automatically" feature of Office in
Teams is a pest.

Re: other than Windows 11

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Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
From: MitchAl...@aol.com (MitchAlsup)
Injection-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 22:26:01 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: MitchAlsup - Wed, 23 Feb 2022 22:26 UTC

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 1:34:36 PM UTC-6, George Neuner wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:03:33 -0800 (PST), MitchAlsup
> <Mitch...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 11:47:15 AM UTC-6, George Neuner wrote:
> >>
> >> Perhaps you are using old(er) software that's having problems?
> >>
> >Some of the SW is from 1997 the rest is from 2003
> I know a number of people who suffer recurrent issues with MSOffice on
> Windows 10. I think the oldest version any of them are using is 2013.
>
> For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
> to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
> that more than well enough.
>
>
> Regarding CorelDraw: admittedly, last I used it was on Win2K in the
> 00's, but my experience with Corel and Adobe products has been that
> installing large numbers of fonts/typefaces tends to make a Windows
> system unstable.
<
Yes, I use custom load, and eliminate all the fonts.
<
I only use 3 fonts: Times New Roman, Courier New, and Greek
<
On the other hand W11 comes with 200+ fonts 560+ if you count bold and
italic combinations. I know windows itself uses 12-ish fonts.
>
> If you're like most people, you only really need a handful of those
> fonts, so you might think about uninstalling the rest of them. You
> don't need to delete them - just drag the files out of the font folder
> and put them somewhere else where you can grab them if you need them.
> Just make sure to reboot after removing fonts from the system font
> folder.
<
Thanks greatly for this suggestion.
<
> >> Windows 11 appears to do a whole lot of "settle in" auto-tuning after
> >> it is first installed. And then it watches everything you do and
> >> attempts to anticipate your usage patterns / preload stuff it thinks
> >> you're going to use, etc. There are tweaks to turn off that sh_t.
> >>
> >> I saw where you said updates are current: I'm sure you are aware that
> >> there has been for a while an issue with storage drivers that
> >> drasticly reduced performance of ... primarily Intel based SSDs ...
> >> but other brands of SSDs and even some HDDs as well. Hopefully this
> >> has not also been part of your problem.
> ><
> >Yes, this is new, this system has SSD that I use for OS and applications
> >all my data is over on other disks (some of them old, too.) I am working
> >on moving swap to a different disk that SSD, too. But with 64GB main
> >memory swap should not be seeing much write activity.
> Windows memory handling is very different from Unix/Linux.
>
> By default, Windows tries to keep a large portion of memory (up to
> 80%) available for file caching. It does this by compressing clean
> data pages in memory, and backing all data pages in swap regardless of
> their current residency.
> [Both desktop and server versions do this - only the defaults that
> balance between programs vs file cache are different.]
>
> There also are resource limits on how much data any particular program
> is allowed to cache (separate from number of open file allowed). Once
> a program hits the limit, new cache data displaces old - even if there
> is plenty of file cache memory available for other programs to use.
>
> The program vs cache balance is adjustable with some tweaks - you can
> select to use more "server-like" caching, you can adjust/limit the
> memory used for file caching, and you can change the default behavior
> for unloading unused DLL code when programs are closed.
>
> The cache resource limits are more problematic. A global change to
> the defaults requires a dastardly registry edit and is not advised.
> You can adjust limits for individual programs if you can create a
> "job" for them ... but there are few tools available for doing that
> (and none are free - if you're willing to compile and experiment there
> are a some sample codes available).
>
> If you haven't already, I would recommend you check out:
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/
> https://winaerotweaker.com/
> https://www.thewindowsclub.com/ultimate-windows-tweaker-5-for-windows-11
>
> and for resource limits:
> https://github.com/nccgroup/WindowsJobLock
> >But, all in all, after reload from cloud, it seems a lot more stable and
> >hand-eye coordination is better but still not as good as W7.
<
> If I'm understanding correctly, I haven't run into that problem per se
> ... I have seen the mouse just stop responding for a second or three
> due to browser and/or antivirus activity. But the response is not
> "slow", and the pointer is not displaced or "off target" in any way -
> it just stops dead until whatever is interfering with it goes away.
<
The jitteryness of the mouse is more like when you miss a few
frames while playing a game. Your eye anticipates where your
hand just placed the mouse, and it is off by a few pixels, This
maters when you need to be within 3-pixels of some point or
the click of the mouse loses the object instead of selecting that
point on the object.
<
Secondarily: W7 had the mouse touching an object exactly over the
cursor, where W11 seems to have this touch 1-pixel to the right of
the cursor.
>
>
> Hope this helps,
> George

Re: other than Windows 11

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Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
From: MitchAl...@aol.com (MitchAlsup)
Injection-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 22:30:05 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: MitchAlsup - Wed, 23 Feb 2022 22:30 UTC

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 2:44:39 PM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> George Neuner <gneu...@comcast.net> schrieb:
> > On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:03:33 -0800 (PST), MitchAlsup
> ><Mitch...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 11:47:15 AM UTC-6, George Neuner wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps you are using old(er) software that's having problems?
> >>>
> >>Some of the SW is from 1997 the rest is from 2003
> >
> > I know a number of people who suffer recurrent issues with MSOffice on
> > Windows 10. I think the oldest version any of them are using is 2013.
> >
> > For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
> > to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
> > that more than well enough.
> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
<
It is statements and rumors like this, that make me stick with ancient
software I know how to use, rather than going forward with software
I know will simply annoy me. It is easier to use SW when you know
where all the idiosyncrasies are than when they make you upgarde
and don't know where to find the old stuff or know where the
idiosyncrasies are.
>
> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
> it to a file and load it. Bah.
>
> And yes, the new "let's save automatically" feature of Office in
> Teams is a pest.
<
I set "save every" x "minutes": x=32768

Re: other than Windows 11

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Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
From: yogaman...@yahoo.com (Scott Smader)
Injection-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 03:27:39 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Scott Smader - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 03:27 UTC

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-8, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> George Neuner schrieb:

snip

> > For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
> > to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
> > that more than well enough.
> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
>
> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
> it to a file and load it. Bah.
>

You don't say what version of LibreOffice you were using or what kind of source
the copy came from, but I find that cut&paste, especially for HTML source, has
improved a great deal over the past couple years. OTOH, the Paste Special
import dialog has allowed the Tab character as a selection for field separator(s)
for a very long time, so maybe you weren't right-clicking to open the options list
during the Paste?

Personally, I'm comforted by and grateful for a stable UI, and who doesn't like
continually improving, useful software with available source? (I have minimal
collaboration needs, too.)

My biggest, ongoing, LibreOffice frustration is that its presentation tool (Impress)
doesn't support PowerPoint animations. (But my low collaboration needs...)

Re: other than Windows 11

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:48:40 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: news.netcologne.de
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:48 UTC

MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> schrieb:
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 2:44:39 PM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> George Neuner <gneu...@comcast.net> schrieb:
>> > On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:03:33 -0800 (PST), MitchAlsup
>> ><Mitch...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 11:47:15 AM UTC-6, George Neuner wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Perhaps you are using old(er) software that's having problems?
>> >>>
>> >>Some of the SW is from 1997 the rest is from 2003
>> >
>> > I know a number of people who suffer recurrent issues with MSOffice on
>> > Windows 10. I think the oldest version any of them are using is 2013.
>> >
>> > For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
>> > to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
>> > that more than well enough.
>> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
>> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
>> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
>> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
><
> It is statements and rumors like this, that make me stick with ancient
> software I know how to use, rather than going forward with software
> I know will simply annoy me. It is easier to use SW when you know
> where all the idiosyncrasies are than when they make you upgarde
> and don't know where to find the old stuff or know where the
> idiosyncrasies are.

I agree.

One problem that if you work for a company which runs a certain
software as a standard, you have little say in the matter.

>> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
>> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
>> it to a file and load it. Bah.
>>
>> And yes, the new "let's save automatically" feature of Office in
>> Teams is a pest.
><
> I set "save every" x "minutes": x=32768

Not sure this is the same thing. The new "feature" saves the file
if you have made any change, intentional or not, meant for saving
or not. But of course, this is only for files which are stored in
Teams (in reality, a Sharepoint) or in Microsoft's cloud, OneDrive.

(Rumor has it that "cloud" actually comes from German, "weil da
einer die Daten klaut", "because somebody swipes the data".)

Re: other than Windows 11

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 07:16:14 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: news.netcologne.de
Distribution: world
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 07:16 UTC

Scott Smader <yogaman101@yahoo.com> schrieb:
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-8, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> George Neuner schrieb:
>
> snip
>
>> > For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
>> > to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
>> > that more than well enough.
>> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
>> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
>> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
>> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
>>
>> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
>> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
>> it to a file and load it. Bah.
>>
>
> You don't say what version of LibreOffice

The one that is installed with Ubuntu 20.04, Version: 6.4.7.2.

> you were using or what kind of source
> the copy came from,

#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{ printf ("1.0\t2.0\n");
return 0;
}

Compile, execute in konsole, copy.

>but I find that cut&paste, especially for HTML source, has
> improved a great deal over the past couple years. OTOH, the Paste Special
> import dialog has allowed the Tab character as a selection for field separator(s)
> for a very long time, so maybe you weren't right-clicking to open the options list
> during the Paste?

"Paste special" only gives me the option of pasting HTML or
unformatted text for the output of the program above. In other
circumstances, I get a choice.

> Personally, I'm comforted by and grateful for a stable UI, and who doesn't like
> continually improving, useful software with available source? (I have minimal
> collaboration needs, too.)

For writing a short letter, LibreOffice is good enough, as it is for
some simple data. Graphics - I never got a handle on that; if it
is something that needs to look good, I prefer gnuplot. For longer
texts, LaTeX.

> My biggest, ongoing, LibreOffice frustration is that its presentation tool (Impress)
> doesn't support PowerPoint animations. (But my low collaboration needs...)

Bringing this slightly back on track for comp.arch: The
presentations explaining the Mill need PowerPoint, so Microsoft
Office has crept even into these hallowed halls.

Re: other than Windows 11

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From: iva...@millcomputing.com (Ivan Godard)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 02:03:31 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Ivan Godard - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:03 UTC

On 2/23/2022 11:16 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Scott Smader <yogaman101@yahoo.com> schrieb:
>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-8, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> George Neuner schrieb:
>>
>> snip
>>
>>>> For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
>>>> to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
>>>> that more than well enough.
>>> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
>>> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
>>> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
>>> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
>>>
>>> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
>>> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
>>> it to a file and load it. Bah.
>>>
>>
>> You don't say what version of LibreOffice
>
> The one that is installed with Ubuntu 20.04, Version: 6.4.7.2.
>
>> you were using or what kind of source
>> the copy came from,
>
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> int main()
> {
> printf ("1.0\t2.0\n");
> return 0;
> }
>
> Compile, execute in konsole, copy.
>
>> but I find that cut&paste, especially for HTML source, has
>> improved a great deal over the past couple years. OTOH, the Paste Special
>> import dialog has allowed the Tab character as a selection for field separator(s)
>> for a very long time, so maybe you weren't right-clicking to open the options list
>> during the Paste?
>
> "Paste special" only gives me the option of pasting HTML or
> unformatted text for the output of the program above. In other
> circumstances, I get a choice.
>
>> Personally, I'm comforted by and grateful for a stable UI, and who doesn't like
>> continually improving, useful software with available source? (I have minimal
>> collaboration needs, too.)
>
> For writing a short letter, LibreOffice is good enough, as it is for
> some simple data. Graphics - I never got a handle on that; if it
> is something that needs to look good, I prefer gnuplot. For longer
> texts, LaTeX.
>
>> My biggest, ongoing, LibreOffice frustration is that its presentation tool (Impress)
>> doesn't support PowerPoint animations. (But my low collaboration needs...)
>
> Bringing this slightly back on track for comp.arch: The
> presentations explaining the Mill need PowerPoint, so Microsoft
> Office has crept even into these hallowed halls.

Open- and Libre-Office didn't handle complicated animations as used in
the presentations, so we standardized on MS Office. Last looked several
years ago; don't know if problems have been fixed.

Re: other than Windows 11

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Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
From: yogaman...@yahoo.com (Scott Smader)
Injection-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 20:22:00 +0000
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 by: Scott Smader - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 20:22 UTC

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 2:03:34 AM UTC-8, Ivan Godard wrote:
> On 2/23/2022 11:16 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Scott Smader schrieb:
> >> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-8, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >>> George Neuner schrieb:
> >>
> >> snip
> >>
> >>>> For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
> >>>> to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
> >>>> that more than well enough.
> >>> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
> >>> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
> >>> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
> >>> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
> >>>
> >>> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
> >>> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
> >>> it to a file and load it. Bah.
> >>>
> >>
> >> You don't say what version of LibreOffice
> >
> > The one that is installed with Ubuntu 20.04, Version: 6.4.7.2.

That is one major rev below currently shipping version. Whether it's worth it
to you to try the upgrade is not my decision.

> >
> >> you were using or what kind of source
> >> the copy came from,
> >
> > #include <stdio.h>
> >
> > int main()
> > {
> > printf ("1.0\t2.0\n");
> > return 0;
> > }
> >
> > Compile, execute in konsole, copy.
> >

With version 7.1.8.1, when I type "1.0\t2.0\n" into a Mac term running
zsh command line, then clickdrag-copy that line of text that I just typed,
then switch to Calc, right-click, I get a menu with Paste Special at the
bottom. Hovering over Paste Special, it opens another menu with Paste
Special again at the bottom. Clicking that, it opens the Paste Special
menu with three options: Rich Text Formatting (RTF), Unformatted text,
and Use text import dialog. Clicking Use text import, then OK opens the
Text Import dialog with a Separator Options section. In that section's
first line are "Fixed width" and "Separated by". Obviously we want
"Separated by". The options available include: Tab, Comma, Semicolon,
Space, Other [specify], Merge delimiters, Trim spaces, and String
delimiter [specify]. There are other options, too. Selecting the obvious
"Tab" separator, the preview shows two fields with 1.0 and 2.0, and
clicking OK puts these values into two horizontal cells in the spreadsheet
at the cursor location.

So, I'm not sure why you're having trouble, but perhaps a version upgrade
would provide satisfaction, if you're still interested in LibreOffice.

> >> but I find that cut&paste, especially for HTML source, has
> >> improved a great deal over the past couple years. OTOH, the Paste Special
> >> import dialog has allowed the Tab character as a selection for field separator(s)
> >> for a very long time, so maybe you weren't right-clicking to open the options list
> >> during the Paste?
> >
> > "Paste special" only gives me the option of pasting HTML or
> > unformatted text for the output of the program above. In other
> > circumstances, I get a choice.
> >
> >> Personally, I'm comforted by and grateful for a stable UI, and who doesn't like
> >> continually improving, useful software with available source? (I have minimal
> >> collaboration needs, too.)
> >
> > For writing a short letter, LibreOffice is good enough, as it is for
> > some simple data. Graphics - I never got a handle on that; if it
> > is something that needs to look good, I prefer gnuplot. For longer
> > texts, LaTeX.
> >
> >> My biggest, ongoing, LibreOffice frustration is that its presentation tool (Impress)
> >> doesn't support PowerPoint animations. (But my low collaboration needs...)
> >
> > Bringing this slightly back on track for comp.arch: The
> > presentations explaining the Mill need PowerPoint, so Microsoft
> > Office has crept even into these hallowed halls.

Exactly. I even considered an attempt at humor with something like, "My
biggest frustration after all these years is still having to view the video
to see Ivan's fancy slides wiggle and dance."

> Open- and Libre-Office didn't handle complicated animations as used in
> the presentations, so we standardized on MS Office. Last looked several
> years ago; don't know if problems have been fixed.

Nope. Not as of 7.1.8.1.

Re: other than Windows 11

<0bc56de9-123d-45c8-9e1c-af24fe091ef8n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
From: yogaman...@yahoo.com (Scott Smader)
Injection-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 21:05:07 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 94
 by: Scott Smader - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 21:05 UTC

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 12:22:04 PM UTC-8, Scott Smader wrote:
> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 2:03:34 AM UTC-8, Ivan Godard wrote:
> > On 2/23/2022 11:16 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > > Scott Smader schrieb:
> > >> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-8, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > >>> George Neuner schrieb:
> > >>
> > >> snip
> > >>
> > >>>> For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
> > >>>> to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
> > >>>> that more than well enough.
> > >>> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
> > >>> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
> > >>> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
> > >>> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
> > >>>
> > >>> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
> > >>> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
> > >>> it to a file and load it. Bah.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> You don't say what version of LibreOffice
> > >
> > > The one that is installed with Ubuntu 20.04, Version: 6.4.7.2.
> That is one major rev below currently shipping version. Whether it's worth it
> to you to try the upgrade is not my decision.
> > >
> > >> you were using or what kind of source
> > >> the copy came from,
> > >
> > > #include <stdio.h>
> > >
> > > int main()
> > > {
> > > printf ("1.0\t2.0\n");
> > > return 0;
> > > }
> > >
> > > Compile, execute in konsole, copy.
> > >
> With version 7.1.8.1, when I type "1.0\t2.0\n" into a Mac term running

To be clear, I did not type the characters '\', 't' or '\', 'n'. I typed the key
labeled "tab" on a MacBook Pro and the key labeled "return".

> zsh command line, then clickdrag-copy that line of text that I just typed,
> then switch to Calc, right-click, I get a menu with Paste Special at the
> bottom. Hovering over Paste Special, it opens another menu with Paste
> Special again at the bottom. Clicking that, it opens the Paste Special
> menu with three options: Rich Text Formatting (RTF), Unformatted text,
> and Use text import dialog. Clicking Use text import, then OK opens the
> Text Import dialog with a Separator Options section. In that section's
> first line are "Fixed width" and "Separated by". Obviously we want
> "Separated by". The options available include: Tab, Comma, Semicolon,
> Space, Other [specify], Merge delimiters, Trim spaces, and String
> delimiter [specify]. There are other options, too. Selecting the obvious
> "Tab" separator, the preview shows two fields with 1.0 and 2.0, and
> clicking OK puts these values into two horizontal cells in the spreadsheet
> at the cursor location.
>
> So, I'm not sure why you're having trouble, but perhaps a version upgrade
> would provide satisfaction, if you're still interested in LibreOffice.
> > >> but I find that cut&paste, especially for HTML source, has
> > >> improved a great deal over the past couple years. OTOH, the Paste Special
> > >> import dialog has allowed the Tab character as a selection for field separator(s)
> > >> for a very long time, so maybe you weren't right-clicking to open the options list
> > >> during the Paste?
> > >
> > > "Paste special" only gives me the option of pasting HTML or
> > > unformatted text for the output of the program above. In other
> > > circumstances, I get a choice.
> > >
> > >> Personally, I'm comforted by and grateful for a stable UI, and who doesn't like
> > >> continually improving, useful software with available source? (I have minimal
> > >> collaboration needs, too.)
> > >
> > > For writing a short letter, LibreOffice is good enough, as it is for
> > > some simple data. Graphics - I never got a handle on that; if it
> > > is something that needs to look good, I prefer gnuplot. For longer
> > > texts, LaTeX.
> > >
> > >> My biggest, ongoing, LibreOffice frustration is that its presentation tool (Impress)
> > >> doesn't support PowerPoint animations. (But my low collaboration needs...)
> > >
> > > Bringing this slightly back on track for comp.arch: The
> > > presentations explaining the Mill need PowerPoint, so Microsoft
> > > Office has crept even into these hallowed halls.
> Exactly. I even considered an attempt at humor with something like, "My
> biggest frustration after all these years is still having to view the video
> to see Ivan's fancy slides wiggle and dance."
> > Open- and Libre-Office didn't handle complicated animations as used in
> > the presentations, so we standardized on MS Office. Last looked several
> > years ago; don't know if problems have been fixed.
> Nope. Not as of 7.1.8.1.

Re: other than Windows 11

<sv8t0i$39g$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=23777&group=comp.arch#23777

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 21:23:30 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: news.netcologne.de
Distribution: world
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 21:23 UTC

Scott Smader <yogaman101@yahoo.com> schrieb:
> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 2:03:34 AM UTC-8, Ivan Godard wrote:
>> On 2/23/2022 11:16 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> > Scott Smader schrieb:
>> >> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-8, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> >>> George Neuner schrieb:
>> >>
>> >> snip
>> >>
>> >>>> For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
>> >>>> to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
>> >>>> that more than well enough.
>> >>> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
>> >>> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
>> >>> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
>> >>> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
>> >>>
>> >>> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
>> >>> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
>> >>> it to a file and load it. Bah.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> You don't say what version of LibreOffice
>> >
>> > The one that is installed with Ubuntu 20.04, Version: 6.4.7.2.
>
> That is one major rev below currently shipping version. Whether it's worth it
> to you to try the upgrade is not my decision.

There is no clear update path, I am using the version supplied by
Ubuntu 20.04. I certainly do not want to compile LibreOffice from
source, that would be too much hassle (and no security updates...)

Compiling gcc from source is enough for me :-)

>
>> >
>> >> you were using or what kind of source
>> >> the copy came from,
>> >
>> > #include <stdio.h>
>> >
>> > int main()
>> > {
>> > printf ("1.0\t2.0\n");
>> > return 0;
>> > }
>> >
>> > Compile, execute in konsole, copy.
>> >
>
> With version 7.1.8.1, when I type "1.0\t2.0\n" into a Mac term running
> zsh command line,

Does this get translated to a tab? I don't do zsh.

> then clickdrag-copy that line of text that I just typed,
> then switch to Calc, right-click, I get a menu with Paste Special at the
> bottom. Hovering over Paste Special, it opens another menu with Paste
> Special again at the bottom. Clicking that, it opens the Paste Special
> menu with three options: Rich Text Formatting (RTF), Unformatted text,
> and Use text import dialog.

The last option is missing for me.
>
>> > Bringing this slightly back on track for comp.arch: The
>> > presentations explaining the Mill need PowerPoint, so Microsoft
>> > Office has crept even into these hallowed halls.
>
> Exactly. I even considered an attempt at humor with something like, "My
> biggest frustration after all these years is still having to view the video
> to see Ivan's fancy slides wiggle and dance."

:-)

Re: other than Windows 11

<23726bb9-339d-4ebd-87d3-c65db79d337cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
From: yogaman...@yahoo.com (Scott Smader)
Injection-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 22:16:12 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 95
 by: Scott Smader - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 22:16 UTC

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 1:23:35 PM UTC-8, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Scott Smader schrieb:
> > On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 2:03:34 AM UTC-8, Ivan Godard wrote:
> >> On 2/23/2022 11:16 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >> > Scott Smader schrieb:
> >> >> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-8, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >> >>> George Neuner schrieb:
> >> >>
> >> >> snip
> >> >>
> >> >>>> For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
> >> >>>> to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
> >> >>>> that more than well enough.
> >> >>> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
> >> >>> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
> >> >>> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
> >> >>> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
> >> >>> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
> >> >>> it to a file and load it. Bah.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> You don't say what version of LibreOffice
> >> >
> >> > The one that is installed with Ubuntu 20.04, Version: 6.4.7.2.
> >
> > That is one major rev below currently shipping version. Whether it's worth it
> > to you to try the upgrade is not my decision.
> There is no clear update path, I am using the version supplied by
> Ubuntu 20.04. I certainly do not want to compile LibreOffice from
> source, that would be too much hassle (and no security updates...)
>
> Compiling gcc from source is enough for me :-)
> >
> >> >
> >> >> you were using or what kind of source
> >> >> the copy came from,
> >> >
> >> > #include <stdio.h>
> >> >
> >> > int main()
> >> > {
> >> > printf ("1.0\t2.0\n");
> >> > return 0;
> >> > }
> >> >
> >> > Compile, execute in konsole, copy.
> >> >
> >
> > With version 7.1.8.1, when I type "1.0\t2.0\n" into a Mac term running
> > zsh command line,
> Does this get translated to a tab? I don't do zsh.

Although it is now moot (see below), I can clarify what I meant.

Zsh is not at all involved here. I just wanted a "pure ascii" app (no spaces-
for-tabs, no non-displayed formatting characters, etc.), so I used a shell
command line. Could have been sh or csh or even vim or etc.

And I realized too late that what I posted might be ambiguous, so I added a
message just above:

> I did not type the characters '\', 't' or '\', 'n'. I typed the key
> labeled "tab" on a MacBook Pro and the key labeled "return".

So I typed:
'1', '.', '0', [tab], '2', '.', '0', [return]

I pressed keys eight times in total, to emulate your C program.

> > then clickdrag-copy that line of text that I just typed,
> > then switch to Calc, right-click, I get a menu with Paste Special at the
> > bottom. Hovering over Paste Special, it opens another menu with Paste
> > Special again at the bottom. Clicking that, it opens the Paste Special
> > menu with three options: Rich Text Formatting (RTF), Unformatted text,
> > and Use text import dialog.
> The last option is missing for me.
> >

Aha. Looks like the bug was reported and fixed in version 7.2.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125440

If you can't or don't want to use the Debian or rpm binaries or compile from
source, you can look forward to a glorious improvement when you next
upgrade Ubuntu. Hooray!

> >> > Bringing this slightly back on track for comp.arch: The
> >> > presentations explaining the Mill need PowerPoint, so Microsoft
> >> > Office has crept even into these hallowed halls.
> >
> > Exactly. I even considered an attempt at humor with something like, "My
> > biggest frustration after all these years is still having to view the video
> > to see Ivan's fancy slides wiggle and dance."
> :-)
You are generous. Thank you.

Re: other than Windows 11

<87fso4qu50.fsf@eder.anydns.info>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=23801&group=comp.arch#23801

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From: a_eder_...@web.de (Andreas Eder)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:08:43 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Andreas Eder - Sun, 27 Feb 2022 14:08 UTC

On Do 24 Feb 2022 at 07:16, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:

> For writing a short letter, LibreOffice is good enough, as it is for
> some simple data. Graphics - I never got a handle on that; if it
> is something that needs to look good, I prefer gnuplot. For longer
> texts, LaTeX.

That is right - even if I use LaTeX also for letters and other minor
texts.
Once you get used to it (and I use it for more than 30 years now) ot os
much less hassle than use a wordprocessor.
It helps it you are used to an editor like emacs.

'Andreas

Re: other than Windows 11

<svi23a$r9m$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=23814&group=comp.arch#23814

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: other than Windows 11
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:45:29 +0100
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 by: David Brown - Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:45 UTC

On 24/02/2022 04:27, Scott Smader wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:44:39 PM UTC-8, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> George Neuner schrieb:
>
> snip
>
>>> For myself, I went to LibreOffice years ago. Fortunately, I don't need
>>> to collaborate much on anything but Word documents, and Libre handles
>>> that more than well enough.
>> Far be it from me to praise Microsoft, but (despte its very many
>> shortcomings, and the fact that each release has been getting worse
>> - just try numbering equations in Word after they switched to the
>> fancy ribbon stuff), Libreoffice is far worse.
>>
>> I recently tried cut&paste of tab-separated values into Libreoffice
>> Calc. Nope, there is no way to separete the fields. Have to save
>> it to a file and load it. Bah.
>>
>
> You don't say what version of LibreOffice you were using or what kind of source
> the copy came from, but I find that cut&paste, especially for HTML source, has
> improved a great deal over the past couple years. OTOH, the Paste Special
> import dialog has allowed the Tab character as a selection for field separator(s)
> for a very long time, so maybe you weren't right-clicking to open the options list
> during the Paste?
>

In my experience, MS Office and LibreOffice each have their pros and
cons in comparison to each other, with some things better in one or the
other. I think MS PowerPoint is significantly more powerful than LO
Impress, for example (though I rarely need either).

For importing text-based data into a spreadsheet, however, LO is orders
of magnitude better than MO. If you live in a country where people use
a "decimal comma" instead of a decimal point, MO's import and export is
a disaster - to deal with data using the opposite convention, you need
to change the locale settings for your entire Windows system rather than
just selecting the details in the dialog box. The same goes for field
separators.

Good PDF export is, of course, a massive benefit of LO. But its import
of some MS-generated documents, especially with complex outlining and
numbering or with embedding of spreadsheets in text documents, is still
not perfect.

Another big difference is that MO mangles documents, LO does not. MO
versions traditionally have a maximum size of word documents - once you
start to exceed that, especially with lots of diagrams, it passes a
critical point and the file starts growing with every save. After a
while, it will no longer open and it's gone. Excel will do that too,
particularly if the same shared file is edited on different machines
with different versions of Excel. I have personally seen a shared
"document list" spreadsheet reach over 600 MB through years of usage
with Excel, and it could no longer be opened by Excel. LO opened it
without problem, I saved it again at about 60 KB, and it was fine for
Excel once more. (Yes, opening the file in LO and saving it again
reduced the size by four orders of magnitude.)

> Personally, I'm comforted by and grateful for a stable UI, and who doesn't like
> continually improving, useful software with available source? (I have minimal
> collaboration needs, too.)
>
> My biggest, ongoing, LibreOffice frustration is that its presentation tool (Impress)
> doesn't support PowerPoint animations. (But my low collaboration needs...)
>

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