Hello,

I am currently working on restoring a Microvax 3100 Model 40 to operating condition and have downloaded OpenVMS version 7.1. At this point, I am trying to find out how to obtain a license for this version. I have sent messages to HPE, and VMS Software but neither has been able to assist me. My 3100 Model 40 will be used for strictly personal use, no business use. Can anyone here guide me on how I can accomplish this? Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Robert Grear wrote:

> I am trying to find out how to obtain a license for this version.

Hobbyist licences for VAX VMS are over.

On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 10:07:37 AM UTC-4, rgrea...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am currently working on restoring a Microvax 3100 Model 40 to operating condition and have downloaded OpenVMS version 7.1. At this point, I am trying to find out how to obtain a license for this version. I have sent messages to HPE, and VMS Software but neither has been able to assist me. My 3100 Model 40 will be used for strictly personal use, no business use. Can anyone here guide me on how I can accomplish this? Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks

You may have attempted to contact the wrong part of HPE. You need to contact HPE Financial Services. They are located in Maine, I believe. They can provide either a license transfer or a "new" license as needed. Be sure to note the products for which you need a license. I will try to get a contact for you. Please send me an Email at the address below and I will forward a contact to get you started.

Dan

Email: dansabrservices@yahoo.com

On 24/07/2022 15:07, Robert Grear wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am currently working on restoring a Microvax 3100 Model 40 to operating condition and have downloaded OpenVMS version 7.1. At this point, I am trying to find out how to obtain a license for this version. I have sent messages to HPE, and VMS Software but neither has been able to assist me. My 3100 Model 40 will be used for strictly personal use, no business use. Can anyone here guide me on how I can accomplish this? Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks

Try searching for "VMS Liberation Front" to keep you going while you try
and get HP to transfer the licence some one will have paid an awefull
lot of money for...

On 2022-07-25, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/07/2022 15:07, Robert Grear wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am currently working on restoring a Microvax 3100 Model 40 to operating condition and have downloaded OpenVMS version 7.1. At this point, I am trying to find out how to obtain a license for this version. I have sent messages to HPE, and VMS Software but neither has been able to assist me. My 3100 Model 40 will be used for strictly personal use, no business use. Can anyone here guide me on how I can accomplish this? Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks
>
> Try searching for "VMS Liberation Front" to keep you going while you try
> and get HP to transfer the licence some one will have paid an awefull
> lot of money for...
>

It would be better if people, especially people who are generally
well regarded, do not start pointing other people to illegal material.

As well as being illegal in its own right, it also damages potential
future hobbyist licences.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Monday, July 25, 2022 at 8:17:14 AM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-25, David Wade <g4...@dave.invalid> wrote:
> > On 24/07/2022 15:07, Robert Grear wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I am currently working on restoring a Microvax 3100 Model 40 to operating condition and have downloaded OpenVMS version 7.1. At this point, I am trying to find out how to obtain a license for this version. I have sent messages to HPE, and VMS Software but neither has been able to assist me. My 3100 Model 40 will be used for strictly personal use, no business use. Can anyone here guide me on how I can accomplish this? Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >
> > Try searching for "VMS Liberation Front" to keep you going while you try
> > and get HP to transfer the licence some one will have paid an awefull
> > lot of money for...
> >
> It would be better if people, especially people who are generally
> well regarded, do not start pointing other people to illegal material.
>
> As well as being illegal in its own right, it also damages potential
> future hobbyist licences.
>
> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
While I agree that pointing to illegal items should not happen, realize that there is zero chance of any VAX hobbyist licenses ever existing in the future.
The original poster has been directed to a contact for a legal license for the VAX.

Dan

On 2022-07-25, abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Monday, July 25, 2022 at 8:17:14 AM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> It would be better if people, especially people who are generally
>> well regarded, do not start pointing other people to illegal material.
>>
>> As well as being illegal in its own right, it also damages potential
>> future hobbyist licences.
>>
> While I agree that pointing to illegal items should not happen, realize that there is zero chance of any VAX hobbyist licenses ever existing in the future.

That isn't what I mean Dan.

How a community behaves towards one hobbyist program (especially after
it expires) can be used as a proxy towards how it might behave towards
any possible future hobbyist licences in related products, especially
if the vendor is worried about how parts of the same community might
try to get around any restrictions in those future hobbyist licences.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 7/25/2022 8:17 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-25, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>> On 24/07/2022 15:07, Robert Grear wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I am currently working on restoring a Microvax 3100 Model 40 to operating condition and have downloaded OpenVMS version 7.1. At this point, I am trying to find out how to obtain a license for this version. I have sent messages to HPE, and VMS Software but neither has been able to assist me. My 3100 Model 40 will be used for strictly personal use, no business use. Can anyone here guide me on how I can accomplish this? Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>> Try searching for "VMS Liberation Front" to keep you going while you try
>> and get HP to transfer the licence some one will have paid an awefull
>> lot of money for...
>>
>
> It would be better if people, especially people who are generally
> well regarded, do not start pointing other people to illegal material.
>
> As well as being illegal in its own right, it also damages potential
> future hobbyist licences.
>
> Simon.
>

So Simon, what is your sage advice to the OP?

Perhaps:

Too bad for you ...
Forget it ...
Run Unix ...

If someone wants to run VAX/VMS for personal use, cause there is no commercial
use anymore, what is so wrong with that?

Does DEC care? DEC doesn't exist.
Does Compaq care? Compaq doesn't exist.
Does HP care? Try asking them.

I'm really curious, why are you so intent on protecting someone else's property?
What is your vested interest?

If HPe cares, let them say so. Don't hold your breath waiting for their
announcement.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2022-07-25, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> On 7/25/2022 8:17 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-07-25, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 24/07/2022 15:07, Robert Grear wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I am currently working on restoring a Microvax 3100 Model 40 to operating condition and have downloaded OpenVMS version 7.1. At this point, I am trying to find out how to obtain a license for this version. I have sent messages to HPE, and VMS Software but neither has been able to assist me. My 3100 Model 40 will be used for strictly personal use, no business use. Can anyone here guide me on how I can accomplish this? Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Try searching for "VMS Liberation Front" to keep you going while you try
>>> and get HP to transfer the licence some one will have paid an awefull
>>> lot of money for...
>>>
>>
>> It would be better if people, especially people who are generally
>> well regarded, do not start pointing other people to illegal material.
>>
>> As well as being illegal in its own right, it also damages potential
>> future hobbyist licences.
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>
> So Simon, what is your sage advice to the OP?
>

Try the contact details Dan gave him. If he doesn't want to pay those
prices, switch to VSI Alpha VMS, which runs just fine in an emulator
and has a hobbyist program.

> Perhaps:
>
> Too bad for you ...
> Forget it ...
> Run Unix ...
>

Everything has its time. For example, you can no longer legally run the
DEC PDP-11 operating systems on a hobbyist licence.

> If someone wants to run VAX/VMS for personal use, cause there is no commercial
> use anymore, what is so wrong with that?
>
> Does DEC care? DEC doesn't exist.
> Does Compaq care? Compaq doesn't exist.
> Does HP care? Try asking them.
>
> I'm really curious, why are you so intent on protecting someone else's property?
> What is your vested interest?
>

For one thing, in addition to it being wrong, I'm also trying to stop
people from damaging future related hobbyist licence programs, David.

> If HPe cares, let them say so. Don't hold your breath waiting for their
> announcement.
>

At this point, I am way more concerned about people pissing off VSI
than I am about them pissing off HPE.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>
>Try the contact details Dan gave him. If he doesn't want to pay those
>prices, switch to VSI Alpha VMS, which runs just fine in an emulator
>and has a hobbyist program.

But is more clumsy in some ways than VAX/VMS which has plenty of issues
but not a lot of back-compatibility ones.

I'd suggest buying a share or two of HP and then writing their investor
relations office asking about it. I've certainly had far more service
in the Compaq era doing this than with any other strategy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article <tbmqh7$1dgr0$1@dont-email.me>,
Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>[snip]
>At this point, I am way more concerned about people pissing off VSI
>than I am about them pissing off HPE.

I hear your ethical argument, but I find this point in
particular kind of bizarre. Why should VSI care? They
didn't license the VAX product and they don't issue VAX
licenses. In effect they have nothing to do with VAX,
and VMS on VAX has not been updated with the last 20
years or so of development on VMS generally, anyway.

So if someone were to set up VAX/VMS on real hardware,
or even in a simulator, why should VSI consider that
any differently than, say, someone setting up SunOS 4.1.3
in a SPARCstation emulator? Or doing something with
Windows XP on an old PC?

Again, why should they care? Simply because it shows
that there are scofflaws in the VMS community who will
disregard the licensing requirements?

I find that kind of hard to believe.

- Dan C.

On 7/25/22 18:05, Dan Cross wrote:
> In article <tbmqh7$1dgr0$1@dont-email.me>,
> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> At this point, I am way more concerned about people pissing off VSI
>> than I am about them pissing off HPE.
>
> I hear your ethical argument, but I find this point in
> particular kind of bizarre. Why should VSI care? They
> didn't license the VAX product and they don't issue VAX
> licenses. In effect they have nothing to do with VAX,
> and VMS on VAX has not been updated with the last 20
> years or so of development on VMS generally, anyway.

Because some people see this as demonstrating an attitude that
licenses really don't mean anything and they will do as they
please even with other people's IP. There a still some who
feel strongly that it was that cavalier attitude the resulted
in there never being a legitimate PDP-11 Hobbyist Program.

>
> So if someone were to set up VAX/VMS on real hardware,
> or even in a simulator, why should VSI consider that
> any differently than, say, someone setting up SunOS 4.1.3
> in a SPARCstation emulator?

Nothing illegal, immoral or unethical about that. Owning a SPACStation
was all that Sun required for the use of SunOS 4.1.3. I am not aware
of any Sparc emulators.

> Or doing something with
> Windows XP on an old PC?

Without a License code you won't do much with XP. Even with
one you won;t do much with it. I still play with everything
from WFW 2.11, NT, 2000 and everything in between. But I
have licenses for them and I am sure there are thousands sitting
in people's desk drawers.

>
> Again, why should they care? Simply because it shows
> that there are scofflaws in the VMS community who will
> disregard the licensing requirements?

Exactly.

>
> I find that kind of hard to believe.

Only time will tell.

bill

On 07/25/22 23:24, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 7/25/22 18:05, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <tbmqh7$1dgr0$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> At this point, I am way more concerned about people pissing off VSI
>>> than I am about them pissing off HPE.
>>
>> I hear your ethical argument, but I find this point in
>> particular kind of bizarre. Why should VSI care? They
>> didn't license the VAX product and they don't issue VAX
>> licenses. In effect they have nothing to do with VAX,
>> and VMS on VAX has not been updated with the last 20
>> years or so of development on VMS generally, anyway.
>
> Because some people see this as demonstrating an attitude that
> licenses really don't mean anything and they will do as they
> please even with other people's IP. There a still some who
> feel strongly that it was that cavalier attitude the resulted
> in there never being a legitimate PDP-11 Hobbyist Program.
>

There always those who will try to cheat and in some cases,
cause a vendor real loss. You will never stop that sort of
thing and vendors will have factored that into their
calculations..

This subject turns up here with monotonous regularity and
the opinions are always the same, but it's an individuals
choice based on their sense of fair play and ethics. I
don't condone nor condemn it, as it's none of my business,
preaching to others, for or against...

Chris

>>
>> So if someone were to set up VAX/VMS on real hardware,
>> or even in a simulator, why should VSI consider that
>> any differently than, say, someone setting up SunOS 4.1.3
>> in a SPARCstation emulator?
>
> Nothing illegal, immoral or unethical about that. Owning a SPACStation
> was all that Sun required for the use of SunOS 4.1.3. I am not aware
> of any Sparc emulators.
>
>> Or doing something with
>> Windows XP on an old PC?
>
> Without a License code you won't do much with XP. Even with
> one you won;t do much with it. I still play with everything
> from WFW 2.11, NT, 2000 and everything in between. But I
> have licenses for them and I am sure there are thousands sitting
> in people's desk drawers.
>
>>
>> Again, why should they care? Simply because it shows
>> that there are scofflaws in the VMS community who will
>> disregard the licensing requirements?
>
> Exactly.
>
>>
>> I find that kind of hard to believe.
>
> Only time will tell.
>
> bill
>
>
>

On 7/25/2022 7:06 PM, chris wrote:
> On 07/25/22 23:24, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 7/25/22 18:05, Dan Cross wrote:
>>> In article <tbmqh7$1dgr0$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>> At this point, I am way more concerned about people pissing off VSI
>>>> than I am about them pissing off HPE.
>>>
>>> I hear your ethical argument, but I find this point in
>>> particular kind of bizarre. Why should VSI care? They
>>> didn't license the VAX product and they don't issue VAX
>>> licenses. In effect they have nothing to do with VAX,
>>> and VMS on VAX has not been updated with the last 20
>>> years or so of development on VMS generally, anyway.
>>
>> Because some people see this as demonstrating an attitude that
>> licenses really don't mean anything and they will do as they
>> please even with other people's IP. There a still some who
>> feel strongly that it was that cavalier attitude the resulted
>> in there never being a legitimate PDP-11 Hobbyist Program.
>>
>
> There always those who will try to cheat and in some cases,
> cause a vendor real loss. You will never stop that sort of
> thing and vendors will have factored that into their
> calculations..
>
> This subject turns up here with monotonous regularity and
> the opinions are always the same, but it's an individuals
> choice based on their sense of fair play and ethics. I
> don't condone nor condemn it, as it's none of my business,
> preaching to others, for or against...

But it is not a choice that only imppact themselves.

Stricter license rules, stricter license tools and
more license audits is something that will hurt
also the the law abiding users.

So don't be surprised that some people speak up
against software piracy!

Arne

On 7/25/2022 3:22 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-25, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 7/25/2022 8:17 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2022-07-25, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 24/07/2022 15:07, Robert Grear wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am currently working on restoring a Microvax 3100 Model 40 to operating condition and have downloaded OpenVMS version 7.1. At this point, I am trying to find out how to obtain a license for this version. I have sent messages to HPE, and VMS Software but neither has been able to assist me. My 3100 Model 40 will be used for strictly personal use, no business use. Can anyone here guide me on how I can accomplish this? Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Try searching for "VMS Liberation Front" to keep you going while you try
>>>> and get HP to transfer the licence some one will have paid an awefull
>>>> lot of money for...
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would be better if people, especially people who are generally
>>> well regarded, do not start pointing other people to illegal material.
>>>
>>> As well as being illegal in its own right, it also damages potential
>>> future hobbyist licences.
>>>
>>> Simon.
>>>
>>
>> So Simon, what is your sage advice to the OP?
>>
>
> Try the contact details Dan gave him. If he doesn't want to pay those
> prices, switch to VSI Alpha VMS, which runs just fine in an emulator
> and has a hobbyist program.

He is restoring a MicroVAX 3100 Model 40. In case you are unaware, it would
have a VAX CPU.

>> Perhaps:
>>
>> Too bad for you ...
>> Forget it ...
>> Run Unix ...
>>
>
> Everything has its time. For example, you can no longer legally run the
> DEC PDP-11 operating systems on a hobbyist licence.
>
>> If someone wants to run VAX/VMS for personal use, cause there is no commercial
>> use anymore, what is so wrong with that?
>>
>> Does DEC care? DEC doesn't exist.
>> Does Compaq care? Compaq doesn't exist.
>> Does HP care? Try asking them.
>>
>> I'm really curious, why are you so intent on protecting someone else's property?
>> What is your vested interest?
>>
>
> For one thing, in addition to it being wrong, I'm also trying to stop
> people from damaging future related hobbyist licence programs, David.

There is no VAX/VMS hobbyist thingy ...

>> If HPe cares, let them say so. Don't hold your breath waiting for their
>> announcement.
>>
>
> At this point, I am way more concerned about people pissing off VSI
> than I am about them pissing off HPE.
>
> Simon.
>

VSI has nothing to do with VAX/VMS.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 7/25/2022 7:19 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/25/2022 7:06 PM, chris wrote:
>> On 07/25/22 23:24, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 7/25/22 18:05, Dan Cross wrote:
>>>> In article <tbmqh7$1dgr0$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>> At this point, I am way more concerned about people pissing off VSI
>>>>> than I am about them pissing off HPE.
>>>>
>>>> I hear your ethical argument, but I find this point in
>>>> particular kind of bizarre. Why should VSI care? They
>>>> didn't license the VAX product and they don't issue VAX
>>>> licenses. In effect they have nothing to do with VAX,
>>>> and VMS on VAX has not been updated with the last 20
>>>> years or so of development on VMS generally, anyway.
>>>
>>> Because some people see this as demonstrating an attitude that
>>> licenses really don't mean anything and they will do as they
>>> please even with other people's IP. There a still some who
>>> feel strongly that it was that cavalier attitude the resulted
>>> in there never being a legitimate PDP-11 Hobbyist Program.
>>>
>>
>> There always those who will try to cheat and in some cases,
>> cause a vendor real loss. You will never stop that sort of
>> thing and vendors will have factored that into their
>> calculations..
>>
>> This subject turns up here with monotonous regularity and
>> the opinions are always the same, but it's an individuals
>> choice based on their sense of fair play and ethics. I
>> don't condone nor condemn it, as it's none of my business,
>> preaching to others, for or against...
>
> But it is not a choice that only imppact themselves.
>
> Stricter license rules, stricter license tools and
> more license audits is something that will hurt
> also the the law abiding users.
>
> So don't be surprised that some people speak up
> against software piracy!

Is running VAX/VMS (which nobody seems to care about anymore) to play with some
old HW really piracy? Even the question of just who is the victim of said
piracy is sort of unknown. Without a victim, can there really be piracy?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 7/25/2022 9:15 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 7/25/2022 7:19 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> So don't be surprised that some people speak up
>> against software piracy!
>
> Is running VAX/VMS (which nobody seems to care about anymore) to play
> with some old HW really piracy?  Even the question of just who is the
> victim of said piracy is sort of unknown.  Without a victim, can there
> really be piracy?

I believe running licenses software without a valid license
is piracy no matter the current commercial value of that software.

Arne

On 07/26/22 00:19, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/25/2022 7:06 PM, chris wrote:
>> On 07/25/22 23:24, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 7/25/22 18:05, Dan Cross wrote:
>>>> In article <tbmqh7$1dgr0$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>> At this point, I am way more concerned about people pissing off VSI
>>>>> than I am about them pissing off HPE.
>>>>
>>>> I hear your ethical argument, but I find this point in
>>>> particular kind of bizarre. Why should VSI care? They
>>>> didn't license the VAX product and they don't issue VAX
>>>> licenses. In effect they have nothing to do with VAX,
>>>> and VMS on VAX has not been updated with the last 20
>>>> years or so of development on VMS generally, anyway.
>>>
>>> Because some people see this as demonstrating an attitude that
>>> licenses really don't mean anything and they will do as they
>>> please even with other people's IP. There a still some who
>>> feel strongly that it was that cavalier attitude the resulted
>>> in there never being a legitimate PDP-11 Hobbyist Program.
>>>
>>
>> There always those who will try to cheat and in some cases,
>> cause a vendor real loss. You will never stop that sort of
>> thing and vendors will have factored that into their
>> calculations..
>>
>> This subject turns up here with monotonous regularity and
>> the opinions are always the same, but it's an individuals
>> choice based on their sense of fair play and ethics. I
>> don't condone nor condemn it, as it's none of my business,
>> preaching to others, for or against...
>
> But it is not a choice that only imppact themselves.
>
> Stricter license rules, stricter license tools and
> more license audits is something that will hurt
> also the the law abiding users.
>
> So don't be surprised that some people speak up
> against software piracy!
>
> Arne
>

Being a developer myself, always pay for software that's
used for work. For someone just booting vms to test out
hardware out of interest and no commercial gain, would be
considered fair use if ever came to court, but it never
would, in the real world. I don't think that sort of
thing, an obsolete, unsupported os, no longer sold,
would have any bearing on a different companies attitude
towards a hobbyist program, as such a program increases
exposure and potential new customers. A good marketing
approach in itself. The world is not black and white,
but has shades of grey and even colour in the real
world. Words like piracy etc, are just over reaction
to what is a harmless pursuit. Probably just a handful
of eccentric enthusiasts.

One of the reasons VMS slid into disuse were the draconian
licensing conditions compared to other vendors. I've
bought old Sun and SGI systems s/h in the past and in the
Sun case, was told by the UK office that the OS license
came with the hardware, nothing to pay. In the SGI case,
an Indy Webforce with loads of proprietary apps, the
licenses were transferred at no cost via email, though
the UK office did try to sell me a service contract.
Good people to deal with in both cases...

Chris

In article <jk8jhjF7pt9U1@mid.individual.net>,
Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 7/25/22 18:05, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <tbmqh7$1dgr0$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> At this point, I am way more concerned about people pissing off VSI
>>> than I am about them pissing off HPE.
>>
>> I hear your ethical argument, but I find this point in
>> particular kind of bizarre. Why should VSI care? They
>> didn't license the VAX product and they don't issue VAX
>> licenses. In effect they have nothing to do with VAX,
>> and VMS on VAX has not been updated with the last 20
>> years or so of development on VMS generally, anyway.
>
>Because some people see this as demonstrating an attitude that
>licenses really don't mean anything and they will do as they
>please even with other people's IP. There a still some who
>feel strongly that it was that cavalier attitude the resulted
>in there never being a legitimate PDP-11 Hobbyist Program.

So what I said at the end of my note.

But again, why should VSI care? They have nothing to do
with VAX. If people started doing this for Alpha, Itanium
or x86, I could see it since VSI has interest in those
platforms. But VAX is explicitly out of their domain.

>>
>> So if someone were to set up VAX/VMS on real hardware,
>> or even in a simulator, why should VSI consider that
>> any differently than, say, someone setting up SunOS 4.1.3
>> in a SPARCstation emulator?
>
>Nothing illegal, immoral or unethical about that. Owning a SPACStation
>was all that Sun required for the use of SunOS 4.1.3. I am not aware
>of any Sparc emulators.

QEMU emulates various SPARCstations and there's TME.

>> Or doing something with
>> Windows XP on an old PC?
>
>Without a License code you won't do much with XP. Even with
>one you won;t do much with it. I still play with everything
>from WFW 2.11, NT, 2000 and everything in between. But I
>have licenses for them and I am sure there are thousands sitting
>in people's desk drawers.

You bandit, you.

People used to generate them XP licenses.

>> Again, why should they care? Simply because it shows
>> that there are scofflaws in the VMS community who will
>> disregard the licensing requirements?
>
>Exactly.
>
>>
>> I find that kind of hard to believe.
>
>Only time will tell.

I suppose so.

- Dan C.

On 7/25/2022 9:15 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 7/25/2022 7:19 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> So don't be surprised that some people speak up
>> against software piracy!
>
> Is running VAX/VMS (which nobody seems to care about anymore) to play
> with some old HW really piracy?  Even the question of just who is the
> victim of said piracy is sort of unknown.  Without a victim, can there
> really be piracy?

According to the messy copyright law we have, it is piracy. Nobody will
ever change the law unless people speak up. According to HP's legal folks
it is piracy. They will never fix that unless people speak up.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Bill Gunshannon schrieb am 26.07.2022 um 00:24:
> On 7/25/22 18:05, Dan Cross wrote:
>> [...]
>> So if someone were to set up VAX/VMS on real hardware,
>> or even in a simulator, why should VSI consider that
>> any differently than, say, someone setting up SunOS 4.1.3
>> in a SPARCstation emulator?
>
> Nothing illegal, immoral or unethical about that.  Owning a SPACStation
> was all that Sun required for the use of SunOS 4.1.3.  I am not aware
> of any Sparc emulators.

see <https://www.stromasys.com/solutions/charon-ssp/>

This is a commercial SPARC emulator covering a wide range of SPARC models.

Hans.

[Disclaimer: my company b.it.co is a Stromasys Sals and Support Partner]

>[...]

On 7/26/22 12:02, Hans Bachner wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon schrieb am 26.07.2022 um 00:24:
>> On 7/25/22 18:05, Dan Cross wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> So if someone were to set up VAX/VMS on real hardware,
>>> or even in a simulator, why should VSI consider that
>>> any differently than, say, someone setting up SunOS 4.1.3
>>> in a SPARCstation emulator?
>>
>> Nothing illegal, immoral or unethical about that.  Owning a SPACStation
>> was all that Sun required for the use of SunOS 4.1.3.  I am not aware
>> of any Sparc emulators.
>
> see <https://www.stromasys.com/solutions/charon-ssp/>
>
> This is a commercial SPARC emulator covering a wide range of SPARC models.
>
> Hans.
>
> [Disclaimer: my company b.it.co is a Stromasys Sals and Support Partner]
>
>> [...]
>

Interesting. Guess I have been out of the Sparc world for too long.

I still have one UltraSparc but haven't even turned it on in years.

At the University where I worked for 25 years we had lots of Sun 3's
and Sparcs but they all eventually went out to pasture. It is an
interesting point that, at least in my department, the VAX and VMS
outlasted them. Come to think of it, so did the PDP-11. :-)

bill

On 2022-07-26, Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
>
> But again, why should VSI care? They have nothing to do
> with VAX. If people started doing this for Alpha, Itanium
> or x86, I could see it since VSI has interest in those
> platforms. But VAX is explicitly out of their domain.
>

Because how people behave in one area can be used as a proxy for
how they might behave in other related areas in the future, especially
when free stuff combined with a sense of entitlement is involved.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-07-25, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> VSI has nothing to do with VAX/VMS.
>

And you have completely and totally missed the point I am making.

Knowing you, probably deliberately. :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 26/07/2022 18:41, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-07-25, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> VSI has nothing to do with VAX/VMS.
>>
>
> And you have completely and totally missed the point I am making.
>
> Knowing you, probably deliberately. :-)
>

Sorry Simon what I should have said was :-

"under no circumstances search the internet for "VMS Liberation Front"
as the licences they issue are illegal and may damage future hobby
licences from VSI systems"

> Simon.
>

Dave
p.s. I note even IBM seems to have stopped pursuing amateurs that run
modern versions of its software. Its freely available on archive.org.