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devel / comp.arch / Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

SubjectAuthor
* The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VQuadibloc
`* Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VThomas Koenig
 +* Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VGuillaume
 |`* Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VBrett
 | `* Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VQuadibloc
 |  `* Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VAnton Ertl
 |   `- Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VAnton Ertl
 `* Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VQuadibloc
  `* Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VGuillaume
   `- Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-VMitchAlsup

1
The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

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Subject: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 14:18 UTC

Recently, I saw this article on The Register:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/22/samsung_esperanto_riscv/

A company, called Esperanto Technologies, has sampled a new chip that it has developed to Samsung and other companies.
This chip is a RISC-V CPU with both performance and efficiency cores.
It has four performance cores; that, in itself, is not a terribly exciting number, as one needs at least eight to be competitive these days.
However, the number of efficiency cores is not only exciting, it borders on the unbelievable - 1,088.
As the chip has a considerable amount of on-chip memory, I wonder if those many efficiency cores are limited to on-chip memory. If so, that would make it somewhat like the IBM/Sony CELL design, although both kinds of core share the same instruction set.
The chip is billed as an accelerator rather than a general-purpose CPU.

John Savard

Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:10:57 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:10 UTC

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
> Recently, I saw this article on The Register:
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/22/samsung_esperanto_riscv/
>
> A company, called Esperanto Technologies, has sampled a new chip
> that it has developed to Samsung and other companies.
> This chip is a RISC-V CPU with both performance and efficiency
> cores.

> It has four performance cores; that, in itself, is not a terribly
> exciting number, as one needs at least eight to be competitive
> these days.

> However, the number of efficiency cores is not only exciting,
> it borders on the unbelievable - 1,088.

You didn't mention that this is a chip for machine learning. I suppose
that all these "efficiency cores" are doing is driving FMA units.

It is not a general purpose CPU.

Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

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From: mess...@bottle.org (Guillaume)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 20:23:27 +0200
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 by: Guillaume - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 18:23 UTC

Le 25/04/2022 à 18:10, Thomas Koenig a écrit :
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
>> Recently, I saw this article on The Register:
>>
>> https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/22/samsung_esperanto_riscv/
>>
>> A company, called Esperanto Technologies, has sampled a new chip
>> that it has developed to Samsung and other companies.
>> This chip is a RISC-V CPU with both performance and efficiency
>> cores.
>
>> It has four performance cores; that, in itself, is not a terribly
>> exciting number, as one needs at least eight to be competitive
>> these days.
>
>> However, the number of efficiency cores is not only exciting,
>> it borders on the unbelievable - 1,088.
>
> You didn't mention that this is a chip for machine learning. I suppose
> that all these "efficiency cores" are doing is driving FMA units.
>
> It is not a general purpose CPU.

Yep. And the fact all the money seems to go to "AI"/machine learning
these days is pretty sad actually. It doesn't look like "hope" much to
me. Whether it's RISC-V-based or not doesn't change much here.

Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

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From: ggt...@yahoo.com (Brett)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 03:11:12 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Brett - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 03:11 UTC

Guillaume <message@bottle.org> wrote:
> Le 25/04/2022 à 18:10, Thomas Koenig a écrit :
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
>>> Recently, I saw this article on The Register:
>>>
>>> https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/22/samsung_esperanto_riscv/
>>>
>>> A company, called Esperanto Technologies, has sampled a new chip
>>> that it has developed to Samsung and other companies.
>>> This chip is a RISC-V CPU with both performance and efficiency
>>> cores.
>>
>>> It has four performance cores; that, in itself, is not a terribly
>>> exciting number, as one needs at least eight to be competitive
>>> these days.
>>
>>> However, the number of efficiency cores is not only exciting,
>>> it borders on the unbelievable - 1,088.
>>
>> You didn't mention that this is a chip for machine learning. I suppose
>> that all these "efficiency cores" are doing is driving FMA units.
>>
>> It is not a general purpose CPU.
>
> Yep. And the fact all the money seems to go to "AI"/machine learning
> these days is pretty sad actually. It doesn't look like "hope" much to
> me. Whether it's RISC-V-based or not doesn't change much here.

It’s hard to make use of a thousand CPU’s as the individual ram bandwidth
is tiny being divided by a thousand.

You need lots of medium sized tasks the feed into a decision tree, and you
have to map them roughly correctly to die layout. Inputs on two edges and
outputs on the opposite corner.

Boutique chip for boutique task. The news is to drum up support for more
customers.

Mill is a thousand times more important.

Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

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Subject: Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 05:22 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 10:11:00 AM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:

> You didn't mention that this is a chip for machine learning. I suppose
> that all these "efficiency cores" are doing is driving FMA units.
>
> It is not a general purpose CPU.

Even so, the article does claim that those cores are real RISC-V cores,
with the full instruction set (at least the basic part of it). They may indeed
have so little memory available that all they can do is guide the computations
of the associated vector/tensor unit in pursuit of acceleration, but this should
still be general enough to make the chip more versatile than a GPU.

Of course, this is an idea that was tried and failed before - in adition to the
IBM/Sony CELL processor, there's also the Xeon Phi.

John Savard

Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

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Subject: Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 05:23 UTC

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 9:11:15 PM UTC-6, gg...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Mill is a thousand times more important.

That's entirely possible. This chip being sampled may turn out to be
not important at all, so if the Mill is successful, it would be more than
a thousand times as important.

John Savard

Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

<2022Apr28.090659@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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From: ant...@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:06:59 GMT
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 by: Anton Ertl - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:06 UTC

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 9:11:15 PM UTC-6, gg...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Mill is a thousand times more important.
>
>That's entirely possible. This chip being sampled may turn out to be
>not important at all, so if the Mill is successful, it would be more than
>a thousand times as important.

If you count commercial success for evaluating performance, then yes,
Mill is 1000 times more important than this chip and this chip is 1000
times more important than Mill:

1001*0 = 0
0 = 1001*0

- anton
--
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

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Subject: Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:57:36 GMT
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 by: Anton Ertl - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:57 UTC

anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 9:11:15 PM UTC-6, gg...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> Mill is a thousand times more important.
>>
>>That's entirely possible. This chip being sampled may turn out to be
>>not important at all, so if the Mill is successful, it would be more than
>>a thousand times as important.
>
>If you count commercial success for evaluating performance, then yes,

s/performance/importance/

You see what's important to me:-)

>Mill is 1000 times more important than this chip and this chip is 1000
>times more important than Mill:
>
>1001*0 = 0
>0 = 1001*0

- anton
--
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

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From: mess...@bottle.org (Guillaume)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
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 by: Guillaume - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 16:53 UTC

Le 28/04/2022 à 07:22, Quadibloc a écrit :
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 10:11:00 AM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>
>> You didn't mention that this is a chip for machine learning. I suppose
>> that all these "efficiency cores" are doing is driving FMA units.
>>
>> It is not a general purpose CPU.
>
> Even so, the article does claim that those cores are real RISC-V cores,
> with the full instruction set (at least the basic part of it). They may indeed
> have so little memory available that all they can do is guide the computations
> of the associated vector/tensor unit in pursuit of acceleration, but this should
> still be general enough to make the chip more versatile than a GPU.
>
> Of course, this is an idea that was tried and failed before - in adition to the
> IBM/Sony CELL processor, there's also the Xeon Phi.

Yep this is nothing really new here.

And the fact those are RISC-V cores? Yeah? There are now tens if not
hundreds of RISC-V cores out there. The successful chips are still few,
though.

Talking about an interesting approach with many small cores, if
anything, while also not really general-purpose, I find this one
interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xez8YrZrOFk

I admit I don't know how far away or how close to that the Samsung
approach is.

Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V

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Subject: Re: The Green Star of Hope for RISC-V
From: MitchAl...@aol.com (MitchAlsup)
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 by: MitchAlsup - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:22 UTC

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 11:53:21 AM UTC-5, Guillaume wrote:
> Le 28/04/2022 à 07:22, Quadibloc a écrit :
> > On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 10:11:00 AM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >
> >> You didn't mention that this is a chip for machine learning. I suppose
> >> that all these "efficiency cores" are doing is driving FMA units.
> >>
> >> It is not a general purpose CPU.
> >
> > Even so, the article does claim that those cores are real RISC-V cores,
> > with the full instruction set (at least the basic part of it). They may indeed
> > have so little memory available that all they can do is guide the computations
> > of the associated vector/tensor unit in pursuit of acceleration, but this should
> > still be general enough to make the chip more versatile than a GPU.
> >
> > Of course, this is an idea that was tried and failed before - in adition to the
> > IBM/Sony CELL processor, there's also the Xeon Phi.
> Yep this is nothing really new here.
>
> And the fact those are RISC-V cores? Yeah? There are now tens if not
> hundreds of RISC-V cores out there. The successful chips are still few,
> though.
>
> Talking about an interesting approach with many small cores, if
> anything, while also not really general-purpose, I find this one
> interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xez8YrZrOFk
<
If you are good with the → key you can get all the information content in just
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<
>
> I admit I don't know how far away or how close to that the Samsung
> approach is.

1
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