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devel / comp.arch / Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

SubjectAuthor
* Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMIvan Godard
+* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMQuadibloc
|`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMitchAlsup
| +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| |+* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMitchAlsup
| ||`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| || +- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMQuadibloc
| || `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Dallman
| ||  `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| ||   `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Dallman
| ||    `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| ||     +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMitchAlsup
| ||     |`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMTerje Mathisen
| ||     | `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMTim Rentsch
| ||     |  +- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMitchAlsup
| ||     |  `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMTerje Mathisen
| ||     |   `- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| ||     `- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Dallman
| |+- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMThomas Koenig
| |`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| | +- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMTerje Mathisen
| | +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMThomas Koenig
| | |`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| | | +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMQuadibloc
| | | |`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| | | | `* Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)Anton Ertl
| | | |  `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)BGB
| | | |   +* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)Bill Findlay
| | | |   |`* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)BGB
| | | |   | `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)MitchAlsup
| | | |   |  `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)BGB
| | | |   |   +* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)Ivan Godard
| | | |   |   |`- Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)MitchAlsup
| | | |   |   `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)MitchAlsup
| | | |   |    +- Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)BGB
| | | |   |    `* Re: Architecture comparisonTerje Mathisen
| | | |   |     +- Re: Architecture comparisonBGB
| | | |   |     +* Re: Architecture comparisonThomas Koenig
| | | |   |     |`- Re: Architecture comparisonMitchAlsup
| | | |   |     `* Re: Architecture comparisonMichael S
| | | |   |      `* Re: Architecture comparisonMitchAlsup
| | | |   |       +- Re: Architecture comparisonBGB
| | | |   |       `- Re: Architecture comparisonMichael S
| | | |   `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)MitchAlsup
| | | |    `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)Quadibloc
| | | |     `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)Stephen Fuld
| | | |      `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)BGB
| | | |       `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)Stephen Fuld
| | | |        `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)BGB
| | | |         +- Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)John Dallman
| | | |         `* Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)Robert Swindells
| | | |          `- Re: Architecture comparison (was: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM)Torbjorn Lindgren
| | | +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMQuadibloc
| | | |`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| | | | `- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMQuadibloc
| | | +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMStephen Fuld
| | | |`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| | | | +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMQuadibloc
| | | | |`- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMTerje Mathisen
| | | | `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMQuadibloc
| | | |  +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMThomas Koenig
| | | |  |+- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMQuadibloc
| | | |  |`- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMTerje Mathisen
| | | |  +- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMrobf...@gmail.com
| | | |  `- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| | | +- Re: Graphics in the old days, wasUpcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| | | `- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMThomas Koenig
| | +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMQuadibloc
| | |`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBill Findlay
| | | +- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMIvan Godard
| | | `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBrian G. Lucas
| | |  `- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBill Findlay
| | +- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMStephen Fuld
| | +* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMitchAlsup
| | |`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMThomas Koenig
| | | `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMitchAlsup
| | |  +* Re: Fortran archaeology, Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| | |  |`* Re: Fortran archaeology, Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMitchAlsup
| | |  | `* Re: Fortran archaeology, Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMThomas Koenig
| | |  |  `- Re: Fortran archaeology, Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMitchAlsup
| | |  `- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMThomas Koenig
| | `* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| |  `* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| |   +* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMaph
| |   |`* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| |   | `* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| |   |  +* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBill Findlay
| |   |  |`* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMIvan Godard
| |   |  | `- Re: tiny little pages, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| |   |  +- Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBGB
| |   |  +* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMitchAlsup
| |   |  |`- Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| |   |  `* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMEricP
| |   |   `- Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| |   +- Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMRobert Swindells
| |   `* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMEricP
| |    `* Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMBill Findlay
| |     `- Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMJohn Levine
| +- Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMGuillaume
| `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMThomas Koenig
|  `* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMThomas Koenig
`* Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVMMichael S

Pages:12345
Re: Fortran archaeology, Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

<75b1ae32-3f22-4c67-8441-03e825eb710fn@googlegroups.com>

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Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 14:18:16 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Fortran archaeology, Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
From: MitchAl...@aol.com (MitchAlsup)
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 by: MitchAlsup - Tue, 3 May 2022 21:18 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 3:52:43 PM UTC-5, John Levine wrote:
> According to MitchAlsup <Mitch...@aol.com>:
> >On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 2:50:59 PM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >> MitchAlsup <Mitch...@aol.com> schrieb:
> >> > in 1982 I was on a project that built a FORTRAN runtime library. We built
> >> > the WRITE routines so you only pulled in the data formatters you actually
> >> > used, not the entire suite of potentials.
> >> How did you deal with formats created at run-time?
> ><
> >The FORTRAN of that era did not have those.
> Sure it did. Fortran 77 let you put your format statement in a character variable.
<
Yes, but you could not invent a random-precision floating point type in a character string.
You were restricted to the format types already installed.
<
It is one thing to have to compile (or interpret) a known set of format capabilities,
it is quite another to invent a new one and integrate it with the others.
>
> There weren't that many formats specifiers, so the F77 compiler I wrote just put them
> all in the library and interpreted formats at runtime, both static ones from FORMAT
> statements and dynamic ones in variables.
> --
> Regards,
> John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Tue, 3 May 2022 21:19 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 3:00:48 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:

> When I was trying to gather information, looking up PDP-11 was turning
> up things like PDP-11 processor boards for an S-100 backplane with 2 MB
> of RAM and similar.
>
> Though, looking some more, I am guessing it is likely this was newer
> technology or something... (Apparently both the S-100 backplane and DEC
> J-11 processor/chipset were 1980s era technology).

The S-100 backplane dates specifically from December 1974, when the
January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics hit the newsstands; it is the
backplane of the Altair 8800 computer.

How could anyone not remember this? (Oh, yes, the obvious answer is:
through having been born too late.)

John Savard

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

<t4s699$ra2$1@dont-email.me>

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From: cr88...@gmail.com (BGB)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 16:19:27 -0500
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 by: BGB - Tue, 3 May 2022 21:19 UTC

On 5/3/2022 1:21 PM, John Dallman wrote:
> In article <t4qm5s$8rv$1@dont-email.me>, cr88192@gmail.com (BGB) wrote:
>
>> This is mostly at-odds with the "everything and the kitchen sink"
>> approach common in C++ land, where people are chasing after the
>> newest language features is some attempt to be "modern".
>
> My employers have various teams that get bees in their bonnets about C++
> features, though some teams definitely do this more than others. There's
> enough code shared between different products that it's worth
> coordinating company-wide.
>
> My conclusion has been that you need to stay about one version of the C++
> standard behind the bleeding age, given that it takes a while for the
> standards to get implemented, and then there are product release cycles
> to accommodate.
>

I don't get the point personally.

Almost better I think to stick with the minimal feature set needed to
accomplish a given task (being conservative about what is used and when).

One could almost assume sticking to C90 for pretty much everything,
apart from things like '//' comments and 'long long' and similar being
fairly useful...

Also, there is a certain level of familiarity with a language which is
mostly static, as opposed to one that is on an endless feature treadmill.

Even as much as I add extensions sometimes...

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
From: MitchAl...@aol.com (MitchAlsup)
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 by: MitchAlsup - Tue, 3 May 2022 21:22 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 4:19:40 PM UTC-5, BGB wrote:
> On 5/3/2022 1:21 PM, John Dallman wrote:
> > In article <t4qm5s$8rv$1...@dont-email.me>, cr8...@gmail.com (BGB) wrote:
> >
> >> This is mostly at-odds with the "everything and the kitchen sink"
> >> approach common in C++ land, where people are chasing after the
> >> newest language features is some attempt to be "modern".
> >
> > My employers have various teams that get bees in their bonnets about C++
> > features, though some teams definitely do this more than others. There's
> > enough code shared between different products that it's worth
> > coordinating company-wide.
> >
> > My conclusion has been that you need to stay about one version of the C++
> > standard behind the bleeding age, given that it takes a while for the
> > standards to get implemented, and then there are product release cycles
> > to accommodate.
> >
> I don't get the point personally.
>
> Almost better I think to stick with the minimal feature set needed to
> accomplish a given task (being conservative about what is used and when).
<
When forced to use C++, I use the C subset.
And I still use printf() instead of <<.
>
> One could almost assume sticking to C90 for pretty much everything,
> apart from things like '//' comments and 'long long' and similar being
> fairly useful...
>
>
>
> Also, there is a certain level of familiarity with a language which is
> mostly static, as opposed to one that is on an endless feature treadmill.
>
> Even as much as I add extensions sometimes...

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Tue, 3 May 2022 21:36 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 3:00:48 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:

> Not sure if anyone was using CRT displays or doing graphics programming
> on the PDP's, not heard much of this (most stuff I read was implying
> that they were mostly using TTY terminals connected over a serial
> interface or similar).

There _was_ a black and white CRT that was used - mostly with the
LINC-8 and pdp-12 - which worked with a raster display, using a 4 by 6
matrix for characters, the VR12.

> Also TV cables used 2 parallel wires rather than coax;

Yes; one used 300 ohm cable from aerials, as opposed to 75 ohm impedance
cables from the wall.

> There were apparently cabinet-sized TVs, rotary phones, and record
> players I guess;

Oh, they even had portable TV sets during part of the 1960s.

And indeed they had record players even in the 1950s.

> Sometimes seen in movies:
> A giant brick phone and/or suitcase with a handset (roughly 70s).

Ah, yes. The first cell phones were analog instead of digital, and the
kind to which you are referring were made by Motorola: there's even
a Wikipedia article about them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_DynaTAC

John Savard

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: cr88...@gmail.com (BGB)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 17:35:30 -0500
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 by: BGB - Tue, 3 May 2022 22:35 UTC

On 5/3/2022 4:19 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 3:00:48 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:
>
>> When I was trying to gather information, looking up PDP-11 was turning
>> up things like PDP-11 processor boards for an S-100 backplane with 2 MB
>> of RAM and similar.
>>
>> Though, looking some more, I am guessing it is likely this was newer
>> technology or something... (Apparently both the S-100 backplane and DEC
>> J-11 processor/chipset were 1980s era technology).
>
> The S-100 backplane dates specifically from December 1974, when the
> January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics hit the newsstands; it is the
> backplane of the Altair 8800 computer.
>
> How could anyone not remember this? (Oh, yes, the obvious answer is:
> through having been born too late.)
>

Yeah. I would not exist for around another decade after this...

Was initially confused some trying to narrow down just what sort of
hardware stats people were dealing with at the time.

It looks like:
PDP-11:
8x 16-bit
Various addressing modes
Looks kinda like an MSP430 with half as many registers;
But, does have MUL/DIV/Shift/... in the ISA, unlike MSP430;
Also sorta resembles the M68K.
VAX
16x 32-bit
Kinda similar to PDP-11.

It appears that M68K, MSP430, SuperH all have a certain level of
similarity to the PDP/VAX design.

However, it would appear that M68K/MSP430/SuperH were reduced in various
ways down if compared with VAX.

M68K: split the registers and simplified some things.
MSP430: Dropped pretty much everything apart from the complex memory
addressing;
SuperH: "What if a PDP was Load/Store?"

This family also tends to be built around 16-bit instruction words.

Given some of the severe ISA limitations in the MSP430 and SuperH/SH2 in
some areas, I figured these features were probably absent from the
PDP-11 as well.

It appears this was more a case of features that were dropped relative
to the predecessor.

MSP430: "We don't need integer multiply/divide/shift".
SH2: "We don't need integer divide or shift"
Both were (partially) re-added in SH4 though.

It appears PDP/VAX was likely also the origin of a combined integer
shift instruction which is either a left-shift or right-shift depending
on the sign of the argument.

This being different from the other families which tend to use separate
instructions for left and right shifts.

Contrast is x86, which appears to have emerged separately.
I would probably cluster x86, Z80, and 6502 as another family.

Most members of this family build opcodes around a variable number of
bytes, typically with Mod/RM bytes or similar for memory addressing.

ARM32 seems to have some superficial similarities both to the PDP and
x86, albeit initially built around 32-bit instruction words and
Load/Store, putting it more in with other RISC family ISAs.

Eg:
32-bit instruction words, often fixed-length;
Typically 16 or 32 GPRs;
Typically 3 registers per instruction;
...

....

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: sfu...@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid (Stephen Fuld)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 17:17:38 -0700
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 by: Stephen Fuld - Wed, 4 May 2022 00:17 UTC

On 5/3/2022 2:00 PM, BGB wrote:

snip

> I guess, further back:
> 60s: No real tech in the modern sense.

You really ought to learn some history. That "no real tech" was
sufficient to design, build and control rockets that put men on the moon.

> There were apparently cabinet-sized TVs, rotary phones, and record
> players I guess;

Record players date to long before the 1960s.

> Also people having overly elaborate hair-styles and bright-colored clothes.
>
> Though, the bright-colored clothes thing returned in the late 80s /
> early 90s for a while, albeit with more "funky molding" and big pointy
> shoulders. The 80s "big hair" was more poofed and bleach-blonde, rather
> than 60s where they would make it look like a big hair helmet or molded
> shape or similar.
>
> Older decades:
>   Pre-1900: N/A, no TV or movies;
>   1900s-1920s: Black and white, captions only.
>   1930s-1940s: Black and white, with sound;
>       Except "Wizard of Oz" being both color and 1930s.

There were other color movies even before the 1930s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_early_color_feature_films

Note that the highest grossing film of all time, Gone With the Wind, was
entirely in color in 1939. I think there were fewer color films in the
1940s due to World War 2.

>   1950s+: Usually color.

--
- Stephen Fuld
(e-mail address disguised to prevent spam)

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: findlayb...@blueyonder.co.uk (Bill Findlay)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 01:21:24 +0100
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 by: Bill Findlay - Wed, 4 May 2022 00:21 UTC

On 3 May 2022, Quadibloc wrote
(in article<bd93e4fa-96ac-4063-ae49-859df730c226n@googlegroups.com>):

> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 1:26:46 AM UTC-6, BGB wrote:
>
> > Well, that and it answers another mystery: "How could you have fit Unix
> > onto computers with only a few K of RAM?..." Apparently, they didn't,
> > they (somehow) had access to machines in the 70s with MB of RAM.
>
> Did such machines exist?
> Well, you could get a IBM 360/195 with up to 2 MB of RAM. And even
> up to 16 MB of RAM if you accepted the special slow core.
>
> If we discount the PDP-7 on which Unix was originally developed, however,
> on the basis that the Unix that ran on it did not have all the features, and
> so
> we can just look at the PDP-11.
>
> Although the PDP-11/45 was a fairly high-end PDP-11, it could only be
> expanded to 32 K words of memory at most, filling the 64 K byte standard
> address space.
This discussion makes me feel old (perhaps because I am 8-).

Unix V6 ran in 48KW, on two RK05 disks, each of 2.5MB.
I ran it on an 11/40 of that specification in 1976.
The 11/40 addressed up to 128KW, of which 124KW were usable for RAM,
the rest of the 18-bit physical address space being memory-mapped I/O.

The 11/45 MMU gave each program access to 2 separate 32KW address spaces,
one for data and one for code. The latter was typically RO and shared
between processes running the same program.

--
Bill Findlay

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: iva...@millcomputing.com (Ivan Godard)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 17:57:58 -0700
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 by: Ivan Godard - Wed, 4 May 2022 00:57 UTC

On 5/3/2022 5:21 PM, Bill Findlay wrote:
> On 3 May 2022, Quadibloc wrote
> (in article<bd93e4fa-96ac-4063-ae49-859df730c226n@googlegroups.com>):
>
>> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 1:26:46 AM UTC-6, BGB wrote:
>>
>>> Well, that and it answers another mystery: "How could you have fit Unix
>>> onto computers with only a few K of RAM?..." Apparently, they didn't,
>>> they (somehow) had access to machines in the 70s with MB of RAM.
>>
>> Did such machines exist?
>> Well, you could get a IBM 360/195 with up to 2 MB of RAM. And even
>> up to 16 MB of RAM if you accepted the special slow core.
>>
>> If we discount the PDP-7 on which Unix was originally developed, however,
>> on the basis that the Unix that ran on it did not have all the features, and
>> so
>> we can just look at the PDP-11.
>>
>> Although the PDP-11/45 was a fairly high-end PDP-11, it could only be
>> expanded to 32 K words of memory at most, filling the 64 K byte standard
>> address space.
> This discussion makes me feel old (perhaps because I am 8-).
>
> Unix V6 ran in 48KW, on two RK05 disks, each of 2.5MB.
> I ran it on an 11/40 of that specification in 1976.
> The 11/40 addressed up to 128KW, of which 124KW were usable for RAM,
> the rest of the 18-bit physical address space being memory-mapped I/O.
>
> The 11/45 MMU gave each program access to 2 separate 32KW address spaces,
> one for data and one for code. The latter was typically RO and shared
> between processes running the same program.
>

The Mary2 compiler compiled itself on a DG Nova1200 with 64k of core
that you shared with the OS. I was spendthrift at that - compare the
Algol60 compiler on the GEAR: 1K words, and a drum that could swap
memory and a track.

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: bage...@gmail.com (Brian G. Lucas)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 20:04:08 -0500
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 by: Brian G. Lucas - Wed, 4 May 2022 01:04 UTC

On 5/3/22 19:21, Bill Findlay wrote:
> This discussion makes me feel old (perhaps because I am 8-).
>
> Unix V6 ran in 48KW, on two RK05 disks, each of 2.5MB.
> I ran it on an 11/40 of that specification in 1976.
> The 11/40 addressed up to 128KW, of which 124KW were usable for RAM,
> the rest of the 18-bit physical address space being memory-mapped I/O.
>
> The 11/45 MMU gave each program access to 2 separate 32KW address spaces,
> one for data and one for code. The latter was typically RO and shared
> between processes running the same program.
>

Bill, I must be older. I picked up 5th edition Unix by going to Ken and
Dennis's lab in NJ and copying a RK05. It all fit on one, with source (because
all the comments had been deleted). I had a second RK05 so they copied some
other code including the voice synthesis stuff. I was working for the US Gov
at the time and to get the voice stuff to work one needed some hardware.
Imagine trying to buy this (from a US Gov facility) from the "Federal Screw
Works"). I'm not making this up, just search "federal screw works votrax".
We got all of this working on our 11/45, which was a sweet little machine.

brian

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: cr88...@gmail.com (BGB)
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 by: BGB - Wed, 4 May 2022 01:21 UTC

On 5/3/2022 4:36 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 3:00:48 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:
>
>> Not sure if anyone was using CRT displays or doing graphics programming
>> on the PDP's, not heard much of this (most stuff I read was implying
>> that they were mostly using TTY terminals connected over a serial
>> interface or similar).
>
> There _was_ a black and white CRT that was used - mostly with the
> LINC-8 and pdp-12 - which worked with a raster display, using a 4 by 6
> matrix for characters, the VR12.
>

OK.

>> Also TV cables used 2 parallel wires rather than coax;
>
> Yes; one used 300 ohm cable from aerials, as opposed to 75 ohm impedance
> cables from the wall.
>

Not that sure of the specifics, but I think these wires were used on the
modulator boxes of some of the early game consoles (Atari 2600 and similar).

Not really dealt with this console myself, but IIRC I watched the AVGN
guy ranting about it before (and I think also playing the ET game and
similar, *).

*: And, I guess back at one point (also before I existed) they went and
buried a huge number of Atari ET cartridges and similar in a landfill.

I guess, around the time I was born, someone could have presumably been
sitting around playing Super Mario Bros on a NES or similar...

Not entirely sure when my parents got the NES though, I don't remember
back that far. My early memories are pretty fragmentary.

>> There were apparently cabinet-sized TVs, rotary phones, and record
>> players I guess;
>
> Oh, they even had portable TV sets during part of the 1960s.
>
> And indeed they had record players even in the 1950s.
>

I think record players are a fairly old technology.

I think some of the early ones were using a hand-crank to wind a spring
or something, with most of the sound conduction and amplification being
done mechanically.

On TV, it is not super obvious where the 50s ends and 60s begins, but
pattern seems to be:
Greased hair (males) and more plain-looking clothes: 1950s;
Helmet hair and brightly colored clothes: 1960s.

This era also has cars with lots of rounded features and pointed
triangular signal-light fin-like things and similar (vs 70s/80s where
box-shaped cars were typical).

Both 50s and 60s seem to have overly ornate glassware objects (colored
glass vases, ...). Scenes from the 1970s seem to have replaced the
colored glass vases with lava-lamps (generally exclusive to the 70s,
along with orange shag carpet).

IIRC, back when I was young (also childhood years), I think I had a
small black-and-white CRT TV that one could power off of D-Cell
batteries, not sure what ever happened to it.

These also appear to have been mostly 80s era technology.

>> Sometimes seen in movies:
>> A giant brick phone and/or suitcase with a handset (roughly 70s).
>
> Ah, yes. The first cell phones were analog instead of digital, and the
> kind to which you are referring were made by Motorola: there's even
> a Wikipedia article about them:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_DynaTAC
>

OK.

So, 80s I guess...

Less sure about the suitcase phones (eg: suitcase with a telephone
handset in it).

First cellphones I remember seeing IRL were mostly using the "clamshell"
/ "flip phone" design.

Earliest example (from memory) was my aunt having a cell-phone back when
I was in elementary school. IIRC, this one was a "bar" style phone.

Well, and some of the other people in my classes during middle and high
school, but they were a minority (they didn't generally use them in
class though, I don't think teachers would have approved).

I didn't have one at the time.

Also IIRC, one other thing that was semi-popular at this time, was
people hooking Game-Boys together with link cables, as I guess people
could battle each other in Pokemon or similar...

Well, there were also people doing "Magic The Gathering" and Yu-Gi-Oh
and similar I guess...

> John Savard

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: findlayb...@blueyonder.co.uk (Bill Findlay)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 02:50:59 +0100
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 by: Bill Findlay - Wed, 4 May 2022 01:50 UTC

On 4 May 2022, Brian G. Lucas wrote
(in article <t4sjea$gsd$1@dont-email.me>):

> On 5/3/22 19:21, Bill Findlay wrote:
> > This discussion makes me feel old (perhaps because I am 8-).
> >
> > Unix V6 ran in 48KW, on two RK05 disks, each of 2.5MB.
> > I ran it on an 11/40 of that specification in 1976.
> > The 11/40 addressed up to 128KW, of which 124KW were usable for RAM,
> > the rest of the 18-bit physical address space being memory-mapped I/O.
> >
> > The 11/45 MMU gave each program access to 2 separate 32KW address spaces,
> > one for data and one for code. The latter was typically RO and shared
> > between processes running the same program.
>
> Bill, I must be older. I picked up 5th edition Unix by going to Ken and
> Dennis's lab in NJ and copying a RK05. It all fit on one, with source (because
> all the comments had been deleted). I had a second RK05 so they copied some
> other code including the voice synthesis stuff. I was working for the US Gov
> at the time and to get the voice stuff to work one needed some hardware.
> Imagine trying to buy this (from a US Gov facility) from the "Federal Screw
> Works"). I'm not making this up, just search "federal screw works votrax".

Believe it or not, we had one of those devices for a grad student to play
with.
Quite what voice synthesis had to do with screws I never fully understood.

> We got all of this working on our 11/45, which was a sweet little machine.

Yes, our 11/40 was replaced by a 128K 11/45.
It easily supported 16 users. (With CDC 60MB disks, not RK05s!)
--
Bill Findlay

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: cr88...@gmail.com (BGB)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 21:44:24 -0500
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 by: BGB - Wed, 4 May 2022 02:44 UTC

On 5/3/2022 7:17 PM, Stephen Fuld wrote:
> On 5/3/2022 2:00 PM, BGB wrote:
>
> snip
>
>> I guess, further back:
>> 60s: No real tech in the modern sense.
>
> You really ought to learn some history.  That "no real tech" was
> sufficient to design, build and control rockets that put men on the moon.
>

I meant in the "modern sense", where one is prone to develop an ever
increasing mass of old electronics and cables.

And, a world where everyday people could interact with electronics
devices and similar directly, rather than, say, read a book or something.

But, yeah, one still has industrial manufacture and electricity and
similar, ...

>> There were apparently cabinet-sized TVs, rotary phones, and record
>> players I guess;
>
> Record players date to long before the 1960s.
>

Yes, but no game consoles or PCs.

One could maybe watch TV or similar, but like, what if there is nothing
interesting playing on TV at that time?...

I guess for older generations, getting more music for their record
player probably meant going to a music store, ...

I guess people my parents' age would have mostly had VHS tapes and VCRs
and similar.

Granted, it is possible that my perspective is skewed slightly by having
also spent most of my life being able to poke around on the internet.

But, I do remember the time before YouTube was a thing.

Like, I can tell the Gen Z people "Back when I was your age... The
internet was too slow to watch video directly, you had to wait many
hours or more to download each episode off of a P2P file-sharing
service...".

>
>> Also people having overly elaborate hair-styles and bright-colored
>> clothes.
>>
>> Though, the bright-colored clothes thing returned in the late 80s /
>> early 90s for a while, albeit with more "funky molding" and big pointy
>> shoulders. The 80s "big hair" was more poofed and bleach-blonde,
>> rather than 60s where they would make it look like a big hair helmet
>> or molded shape or similar.
>>
>> Older decades:
>>    Pre-1900: N/A, no TV or movies;
>>    1900s-1920s: Black and white, captions only.
>>    1930s-1940s: Black and white, with sound;
>>        Except "Wizard of Oz" being both color and 1930s.
>
> There were other color movies even before the 1930s.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_early_color_feature_films
>
> Note that the highest grossing film of all time, Gone With the Wind, was
> entirely in color in 1939.  I think there were fewer color films in the
> 1940s due to World War 2.
>

OK. Many seem to be "lost" or "exist only in black and white".

Reads some, I guess the great drawback of color back then was that it
ate up around 2x to 3x as much film stock as black-and-white.

Seems like a cheaper compromise could have been to have a spinning color
filter wheel and then record frames in alternating colors, say:
Yellow, Cyan, Yellow, Magenta
Or:
Green, Blue, Green, Red

Former would have less flicker, but less saturation.
Latter would have more flicker, but better saturation.

Or, maybe:
Yellow, Blue, Green, Red

....

Then maybe have "persistence of vision" smooth out the color, though I
guess this might have required a higher frame-rate to limit visible
flicker (say, 32 or 36 fps or similar).

The projector would have needed a matching color wheel, which would be
synchronized with the film.

>
>>    1950s+: Usually color.
>

Re: Graphics in the old days, wasUpcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: joh...@taugh.com (John Levine)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Graphics in the old days, wasUpcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 03:06:31 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: John Levine - Wed, 4 May 2022 03:06 UTC

According to BGB <cr88192@gmail.com>:
> From stuff I heard, I guess a lot of 70s era CRT graphics were mostly
>"racing the beam" style, with people configuring the contents of the
>video registers ahead of the raster beam (say, copying a row of text at
>a time from RAM into internal display memory whenever the raster beam
>hits the next row).

Uh, no. Until the early 1970s, computer graphics used an oscilliscope
screen with the images drawn by a processor that interpreted a display
list that showed points, lines, and maybe circles. A few of the
fancier ones had some way to do text by treating each character as a
subroutine. The beam was statically deflected. DEC had a displasy
processor known as the 338, 339, or 340 depending on which machine it
was attached to. This was all before the PDP-11.

I never programmed the DEC display but I did program the IDIIOM built
by Information Displays around 1970 and attached to a Varian 620i
16-bit mini for the infamous Software art show at the New York Jewish
Museum.

Once RAM started to get affordable, people at MIT and Yale built
bitmap displays using TV screens with raster scans showing bit images
from RAM. I wrote the software for Yale's displays, a kludge for the
Unix 11/45 that let people access the screen memory directly via some
otherwise unused mode-switching hardware, and a PDP-11/05 running a
program I wrote (in C with no multiplies or divides) that emulated
ASCII terminals. The character sets were in an array on the 11/05 and
it just copied the bytes to the video RAM to draw characters. Someone
pointed out that I could OR rather than copy to do overstriking, which
came in handy for the alternative APL character set.

Once microcomputers came along people did all sorts of clever stuff with
sprite graphics and such but that was more 1980s.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 4 May 2022 03:29 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:22:03 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:

> I think record players are a fairly old technology.
>
> I think some of the early ones were using a hand-crank to wind a spring
> or something, with most of the sound conduction and amplification being
> done mechanically.

Yes, that's mostly right.

One additional detail, though, is that electronic amplification is required
to play 45 RPM and 33 RPM records; only the 78 RPM records could be
played mechanically.

Also, there was no such thing as mechanical audio _amplification_, per
se; what can be done mechanically is _impedance matching_ along with
concentrating what sound you have with megaphone horns.

John Savard

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 4 May 2022 03:34 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:44:37 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:

> And, a world where everyday people could interact with electronics
> devices and similar directly, rather than, say, read a book or something.

Ordinary people did interact with electronic devices personally.

Even in the 1920s, whenever they turned on the radio, because it used
vacuum tubes to amplify the signal.

What most people didn't do personally in the 1960s, though, was interact
directly with electronic digital computers directly. Those they read about
in books.

This would have started to change when the first pocket calculators
came out. 1972 was the year when the HP 35, a scientific pocket
calculator, startled the world... a few years later, they became cheap
enough for anyone to afford - by 1976, or perhaps earlier.

John Savard

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 4 May 2022 03:37 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:44:37 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:

> Reads some, I guess the great drawback of color back then was that it
> ate up around 2x to 3x as much film stock as black-and-white.
>
>
> Seems like a cheaper compromise could have been to have a spinning color
> filter wheel and then record frames in alternating colors, say:
> Yellow, Cyan, Yellow, Magenta
> Or:
> Green, Blue, Green, Red
>
> Former would have less flicker, but less saturation.
> Latter would have more flicker, but better saturation.
>
> Or, maybe:
> Yellow, Blue, Green, Red

This was actually tried for television - by CBS. Eventually, though,
the FCC reconsidered, and NBC's color system, "compatible color",
won out, as NTSC. Europe waited a while and went with PAL and
SECAM.

John Savard

Re: Fortran archaeology, Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Fortran archaeology, Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 05:36:48 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Wed, 4 May 2022 05:36 UTC

MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> schrieb:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 3:52:43 PM UTC-5, John Levine wrote:
>> According to MitchAlsup <Mitch...@aol.com>:
>> >On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 2:50:59 PM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> >> MitchAlsup <Mitch...@aol.com> schrieb:
>> >> > in 1982 I was on a project that built a FORTRAN runtime library. We built
>> >> > the WRITE routines so you only pulled in the data formatters you actually
>> >> > used, not the entire suite of potentials.
>> >> How did you deal with formats created at run-time?
>> ><
>> >The FORTRAN of that era did not have those.
>> Sure it did. Fortran 77 let you put your format statement in a character variable.
><
> Yes, but you could not invent a random-precision floating point type in a character string.
> You were restricted to the format types already installed.

Sure. FORTRAN 77 did not have derived types, these were introduced
in Fortran 90, and derived type I/O was only added in Fortran 2003
(and its specification is a mess even now).

But if you didn't know in advance which of the pre-selected formats
would be used, how did you decide which ones to pull in? Or did
you go by type of the I/O variable, hoping that nobody would
ever print a real as an integer?

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 05:39:04 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Wed, 4 May 2022 05:39 UTC

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:44:37 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:
>
>> Reads some, I guess the great drawback of color back then was that it
>> ate up around 2x to 3x as much film stock as black-and-white.
>>
>>
>> Seems like a cheaper compromise could have been to have a spinning color
>> filter wheel and then record frames in alternating colors, say:
>> Yellow, Cyan, Yellow, Magenta
>> Or:
>> Green, Blue, Green, Red
>>
>> Former would have less flicker, but less saturation.
>> Latter would have more flicker, but better saturation.
>>
>> Or, maybe:
>> Yellow, Blue, Green, Red
>
> This was actually tried for television - by CBS. Eventually, though,
> the FCC reconsidered, and NBC's color system, "compatible color",
> won out, as NTSC. Europe waited a while and went with PAL and
> SECAM.

Doesn't NTSC stand for "Never The Same Color"?

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
From: robfi...@gmail.com (robf...@gmail.com)
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 by: robf...@gmail.com - Wed, 4 May 2022 05:40 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 11:37:11 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:44:37 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:
> > Reads some, I guess the great drawback of color back then was that it
> > ate up around 2x to 3x as much film stock as black-and-white.
> >
> >
> > Seems like a cheaper compromise could have been to have a spinning color
> > filter wheel and then record frames in alternating colors, say:
> > Yellow, Cyan, Yellow, Magenta
> > Or:
> > Green, Blue, Green, Red
> >
> > Former would have less flicker, but less saturation.
> > Latter would have more flicker, but better saturation.
> >
> > Or, maybe:
> > Yellow, Blue, Green, Red
> This was actually tried for television - by CBS. Eventually, though,
> the FCC reconsidered, and NBC's color system, "compatible color",
> won out, as NTSC. Europe waited a while and went with PAL and
> SECAM.
>
> John Savard

I remember those small red LED calculators when they become popular. Built a two-bit
adder out of transistors when I was a teenager, which was a bit retro. Having become
interested in digital electronics. Bought a bunch of digital electronics books from a
book club. Even got around to designing an 8080 computer on paper.

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: cr88...@gmail.com (BGB)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 00:45:41 -0500
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 by: BGB - Wed, 4 May 2022 05:45 UTC

On 5/3/2022 10:37 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 8:44:37 PM UTC-6, BGB wrote:
>
>> Reads some, I guess the great drawback of color back then was that it
>> ate up around 2x to 3x as much film stock as black-and-white.
>>
>>
>> Seems like a cheaper compromise could have been to have a spinning color
>> filter wheel and then record frames in alternating colors, say:
>> Yellow, Cyan, Yellow, Magenta
>> Or:
>> Green, Blue, Green, Red
>>
>> Former would have less flicker, but less saturation.
>> Latter would have more flicker, but better saturation.
>>
>> Or, maybe:
>> Yellow, Blue, Green, Red
>
> This was actually tried for television - by CBS. Eventually, though,
> the FCC reconsidered, and NBC's color system, "compatible color",
> won out, as NTSC. Europe waited a while and went with PAL and
> SECAM.
>

With NTSC, compatible would have been doing what they did (with
colorburst modulation).

In some of my Sci-Fi stories, I had imagined a world where color TV had,
instead of colorburst+QAM, or color-keyed frames, had instead worked by
interleaving color per-scanline (with in-setting, it being necessary to
fine-tune a phase oscilator in the TV to get the correct colors, with
out-of-tune TVs tending to result in a rainbow pattern in the image).

In this setting, though, they had not created color CRTs via multiple
electron guns, multiple phosphor colors, and a screen, but instead by
patterning a series of color-filter bars onto the front of the CRT, with
one then needing to adjust the CRT such that the broadcast scanlines
line up with the matching color-bars (also sensitive to things like
viewing angle, ...).

The studio cameras would have worked in a similar way, by having color
filter bars painted onto the front of the video-capture tube.

For film, this should have been backward compatible with existing
projectors (provided the frame-speed was correct), and with black and
white film, albeit for a projector without a color-filter-wheel, the
film would show in black and white.

Probably rendered moot though as they later developed full-color film
with multiple emulsion layers.

Could have been cheaper than using 3x as much film (as in TechniColor),
as my idea would have merely run the same film roughly 50% faster
(mostly to try to limit strobe effects, *).

*: If luma is unbalanced between color planes, 24 fps would have a
strobe at 12 and 6 Hz, whereas 36 would put them at 18 and 9 Hz.

Y/C/Y/M would work by selectively removing one primary per frame (less
likely to result in significant strobe), but would not achieve full
color separation so would be limited to low-saturation color. It would
likely keep roughly comparable brightness between the frames though (and
minimize the low-frequency imbalance).

G/B/G/R would fully separate the colors (by only showing primaries),
though luma between imbalance is more likely to be visible (images with
with large areas of a single color are likely to look like strobes).

Large areas with a single flat color (such as flat red or blue) would
likely result in a fairly significant strobe, in frequency ranges which
could potentially trigger seizures.

Looks though like the film would probably need to be played at 60 or 72
fps with the G/B/G/R scheme to keep the seizure risk acceptably low.

The Y/C/Y/M scheme would avoid this by being mostly unable to generate a
strobe in this frequency range when playing at 36 fps (so would be far
less likely to cause viewers to experience seizures).

However, 24 fps would still carry a fairly high seizure risk.

....

There are potential workarounds for these issues, but most would likely
fall outside the limits of early 20th century technology.

> John Savard

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 06:12:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Wed, 4 May 2022 06:12 UTC

Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> schrieb:
> MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> schrieb:
>> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 5:09:16 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:26:06 PM UTC-6, Ivan Godard wrote:
>>> > https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-decimal-floating-point-support-iso-iec-ts-18661-2-and-c23/62152
>>>
>>> According to that, the project has just begun.
>>>
>>> It is reasonable that this project _should_ begin, given that the current C standard has
>>> provision for DFP, and there are some machines out there with DFP support.
>><
>> Representing 0.000,1% of chips containing CPUs; sold annually.
>
> Nice floating point format :-)
>
> Are there any sources for the number of POWER processors sold
> these days?

I did some digging. Apparently, IBM is selling around 2
billion dollar's worth of POWER systems per year, according to
https://www.itjungle.com/2022/03/07/the-low-down-on-ibms-power-systems-sales/
compared to a total server market of around 20 billion
(https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS48221821).
zSystems come to 1.6 Billion (ballpark) at
https://www.statista.com/statistics/799064/worldwide-revenue-ibm-system-z-mainframe/

So, I'd say that DFP hardware has something like 15% of current
server markets. Of course, grabbing random data samples from
the Internet may well be comparing apples to oranges.

Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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From: cr88...@gmail.com (BGB)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 03:46:51 -0500
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 by: BGB - Wed, 4 May 2022 08:46 UTC

On 5/3/2022 4:03 PM, John Levine wrote:
> According to BGB <cr88192@gmail.com>:
>> Well, that and it answers another mystery: "How could you have fit Unix
>> onto computers with only a few K of RAM?..." Apparently, they didn't,
>> they (somehow) had access to machines in the 70s with MB of RAM.
>
> Yes, we did. The most memory you could put on a PDP-11/45 was 248K,
> the 256K bus address space minus 8K for the I/O devices.

Curious then...

I am also going to guess that the 16K x 1b or 64K x 1b DIP16 RAM chips
weren't a thing yet...

Best I can tell is that they caught on "some time in the 70s" (replacing
magnetic core memory which had in-turn replaced drum-memory and
william's-tube memory).

The S-100 processor cards I saw listed, looked sorta like:
Big obvious card-edge connector;
Big white ceramic package (apparently the PDP CPU);
A big block of tightly packed DIP chips.
Typical of old-style RAM.
Looked like a fairly typical green-mask PCB.

And, apparently, this was probably not from the right timeframe.

Haven't actually seen any 70s era PCBs first hand, so not really sure
how to gauge this by looking at it.

Checking Google Images, I guess the pattern is that apparently a lot of
the traces are more haphazard and wavy. Almost more like a drawing of a
circuit, than the more "straight lines and 45 degree angles" seen on
most other (slightly newer) PCBs.

Well, and also the examples seen seemed to have more discrete components
relative to the number of ICs, and typically more sparsely populated (as
opposed to a larger number of DIP packages packed closely together).

Well, excluding things like surface-mount QFPs and similar, which
immediately give something away as 90s or newer (with 80s and older
being pretty much exclusively DIP chips and other through-hole
components and similar).

Not entirely sure when the thing of using a "bare die mounted to a board
under a big blob of black epoxy" thing came around.

> Each process was
> limited to 64K of code and 64K of data. Memory was expensive and many
> real systems had 128KB or less.
>

This implies a simpler binary format (a.out?), probably not something
like COFF or similar.

I guess, MS-DOS ".COM" binaries are fairly minimal, eg:
No header or other structures;
Loaded at 0x0100 relative to the loaded segment base;
Assumes CS=DS=SS=ES;
Everything needs to fit in 64K.
Jumps to CS:0x0100 for entry point;
First 256 bytes contain IO descriptors and the command line.

Though, thinking about it, one could potentially stretch RAM a little
further with 16-bit int and 16-bit pointers, than with 32-bit int and
64-bit pointers.

Also a bit different from my case, namely loading the kernel image as a
modified PE/COFF variant which has also been compressed with an LZ4
variant; this being, admittedly, a bit more complex to load.

The LZ4 being because:
Makes SDcard IO go faster (particularly in simulation);
LZ4 appears to work better on program binaries than my RP2 compression
scheme (which works better for most other data).

This variant does skip the MZ EXE stub, mostly because it is pointless,
so in this sense is at least slightly closer to a raw COFF binary (just
with an additional FOURCC on the front).

But, does still use the data-directories and base-reloc tables and
similar, which were not part of the original COFF format.

Off hand, I am not quite as sure about the loader behavior of (non-PE)
COFF variants.

> The original Ritchie C compiler was two passes, a third optional
> peephole optimizer, and then the assembler. As I recall each pass was
> about 24K bytes. Recompiling the system took a while but that was
> mostly because the disks were slow.
>

I am guessing it would likely need to operate one line or one statement
at a time.

Doesn't seem like it would be viable to parse an AST or build an IR
graph for a whole program, or even a whole function, under these limits.

I will also assume that virtual memory probably wasn't really a thing
yet?...

So, functionally it would have been more like MS-DOS than a modern Unix?...

>> Well, along with having integer multiply/divide/... in hardware.
>
> The 11/45 had mutiply and divide but I wrote code that ran on a 11/05 by
> carefully not writing things that would require multiplying. The compiler
> was smart enough to use shifts where it could.
>

OK.

Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM
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 by: John Dallman - Wed, 4 May 2022 08:50 UTC

In article <t4s699$ra2$1@dont-email.me>, cr88192@gmail.com (BGB) wrote:

> > My employers have various teams that get bees in their bonnets
> > about C++ features, though some teams definitely do this more
> > than others. There's enough code shared between different products
> > that it's worth coordinating company-wide.

> I don't get the point personally.
>
> Almost better I think to stick with the minimal feature set needed
> to accomplish a given task (being conservative about what is used
> and when).

However, we have teams who are absolutely convinced that using C++17 and
C++20 will improve their developers' productivity, for their particular
arcane field of programming. It's hard to gainsay them in their specific
case.

John

Re: tiny little computers, was Upcoming DFP support in clang/LLVM

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 by: aph...@littlepinkcloud.invalid - Wed, 4 May 2022 09:32 UTC

BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/3/2022 4:03 PM, John Levine wrote:
>> According to BGB <cr88192@gmail.com>:
>>> Well, that and it answers another mystery: "How could you have fit Unix
>>> onto computers with only a few K of RAM?..." Apparently, they didn't,
>>> they (somehow) had access to machines in the 70s with MB of RAM.
>>
>> Yes, we did. The most memory you could put on a PDP-11/45 was 248K,
>> the 256K bus address space minus 8K for the I/O devices.
>
> Curious then...

It's not that mysterious. The source code for UNIX 6th Edition is
available here https://warsus.github.io/lions-/

Andrew.

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