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devel / comp.arch / Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

SubjectAuthor
* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meMitchAlsup
`* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meQuadibloc
 +* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meMitchAlsup
 |+* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meIvan Godard
 ||`* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through comAndreas Eder
 || `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meQuadibloc
 ||  +- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meDavid Brown
 ||  `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through comAndreas Eder
 ||   `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meQuadibloc
 ||    `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meDavid Brown
 ||     +- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meIvan Godard
 ||     `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meTerje Mathisen
 ||      `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meDavid Brown
 ||       +* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meStephen Fuld
 ||       |+- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through comStefan Monnier
 ||       |`- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meTerje Mathisen
 ||       `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meTerje Mathisen
 ||        `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meDavid Brown
 ||         `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through comAnton Ertl
 ||          `- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meJimBrakefield
 |+- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meQuadibloc
 |+- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meDavid Brown
 |`* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meTerje Mathisen
 | `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meJimBrakefield
 |  `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through comStefan Monnier
 |   +* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meMitchAlsup
 |   |`* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meJimBrakefield
 |   | `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meQuadibloc
 |   |  `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through comAndreas Eder
 |   |   `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meDavid Brown
 |   |    `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meJimBrakefield
 |   |     `- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meMichael S
 |   `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meDavid Brown
 |    `- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through comStefan Monnier
 `* Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meQuadibloc
  `- Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to meDavid Brown

Pages:12
Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

<t567vc$mv0$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=25122&group=comp.arch#25122

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me
through communication with time.
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 18:49:47 +0200
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 by: David Brown - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:49 UTC

On 07/05/2022 15:02, Terje Mathisen wrote:
> David Brown wrote:
>> Paradoxes are unavoidable - or at least, you can't prove that you
>> won't have them.  You want to get a good book on Gödel's
>> incompleteness theorem, and read it for a bit of mind-bending.  (I
>> don't know what would be a good choice, and of course it depends on
>> what balance you want between "easy reading layman explanations" and
>> heavy, rigorous mathematics.)  It turns out that no matter how you
>> define your mathematics, if you've given it enough flexibility to be
>> interesting (i.e., enough axioms to be able to count), there will be
>> statements that are true but cannot be proven, and others that are
>> false but cannot be disproven.
>
> Id doesn't matter if you care about the details or not, everyone should
> read Hofstadter's GEB - An Eternal Golden Braid! The book won a Pulitzer
> Price as well afair?
>

I knew someone else would have a suggestion when I did not - and when
both you and Ivan agree, then I take that as a strong recommendation. I
will see about ordering it myself.

Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

<t56ak2$cm7$1@dont-email.me>

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From: sfu...@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid (Stephen Fuld)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me
through communication with time.
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:34:58 -0700
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 by: Stephen Fuld - Sat, 7 May 2022 17:34 UTC

On 5/7/2022 9:49 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 15:02, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>> David Brown wrote:
>>> Paradoxes are unavoidable - or at least, you can't prove that you
>>> won't have them.  You want to get a good book on Gödel's
>>> incompleteness theorem, and read it for a bit of mind-bending.  (I
>>> don't know what would be a good choice, and of course it depends on
>>> what balance you want between "easy reading layman explanations" and
>>> heavy, rigorous mathematics.)  It turns out that no matter how you
>>> define your mathematics, if you've given it enough flexibility to be
>>> interesting (i.e., enough axioms to be able to count), there will be
>>> statements that are true but cannot be proven, and others that are
>>> false but cannot be disproven.
>>
>> Id doesn't matter if you care about the details or not, everyone should
>> read Hofstadter's GEB - An Eternal Golden Braid! The book won a Pulitzer
>> Price as well afair?
>>
>
> I knew someone else would have a suggestion when I did not - and when
> both you and Ivan agree, then I take that as a strong recommendation. I
> will see about ordering it myself.

Oh, you definitely should. I still remember with joy, over 40 years
later, first reading it in my hotel room one evening while working at a
customer's site, encountering "Crab Canon", and having my mind just
totally blown at the incredible imagination and craft of it when I
realized what was going on. (I won't give it away so as not to spoil
anyone else's enjoyment.)

--
- Stephen Fuld
(e-mail address disguised to prevent spam)

Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

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From: monn...@iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 13:41:46 -0400
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 by: Stefan Monnier - Sat, 7 May 2022 17:41 UTC

>>> Id doesn't matter if you care about the details or not, everyone should
>>> read Hofstadter's GEB - An Eternal Golden Braid! The book won a Pulitzer
>>> Price as well afair?
>>>
>> I knew someone else would have a suggestion when I did not - and when
>> both you and Ivan agree, then I take that as a strong recommendation. I
>> will see about ordering it myself.
>
> Oh, you definitely should. I still remember with joy, over 40 years later,
> first reading it in my hotel room one evening while working at a customer's
> site, encountering "Crab Canon", and having my mind just totally blown at
> the incredible imagination and craft of it when I realized what was going
> on. (I won't give it away so as not to spoil anyone else's enjoyment.)

I can't recommend it enough, indeed.

Stefan

Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

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From: terje.ma...@tmsw.no (Terje Mathisen)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me
through communication with time.
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 20:12:14 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Terje Mathisen - Sat, 7 May 2022 18:12 UTC

David Brown wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 15:02, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>> David Brown wrote:
>>> Paradoxes are unavoidable - or at least, you can't prove that you
>>> won't have them.  You want to get a good book on Gödel's
>>> incompleteness theorem, and read it for a bit of mind-bending.  (I
>>> don't know what would be a good choice, and of course it depends on
>>> what balance you want between "easy reading layman explanations" and
>>> heavy, rigorous mathematics.)  It turns out that no matter how you
>>> define your mathematics, if you've given it enough flexibility to be
>>> interesting (i.e., enough axioms to be able to count), there will be
>>> statements that are true but cannot be proven, and others that are
>>> false but cannot be disproven.
>>
>> Id doesn't matter if you care about the details or not, everyone should
>> read Hofstadter's GEB - An Eternal Golden Braid! The book won a Pulitzer
>> Price as well afair?
>>
>
> I knew someone else would have a suggestion when I did not - and when
> both you and Ivan agree, then I take that as a strong recommendation. I
> will see about ordering it myself.

It is one a very small set of books that I have ordered (in hardcover)
from the US and paid to have it shipped to Norway.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

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From: terje.ma...@tmsw.no (Terje Mathisen)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me
through communication with time.
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 20:33:02 +0200
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 by: Terje Mathisen - Sat, 7 May 2022 18:33 UTC

Stephen Fuld wrote:
> On 5/7/2022 9:49 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 07/05/2022 15:02, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>>> David Brown wrote:
>>>> Paradoxes are unavoidable - or at least, you can't prove that you
>>>> won't have them.  You want to get a good book on Gödel's
>>>> incompleteness theorem, and read it for a bit of mind-bending.  (I
>>>> don't know what would be a good choice, and of course it depends on
>>>> what balance you want between "easy reading layman explanations" and
>>>> heavy, rigorous mathematics.)  It turns out that no matter how you
>>>> define your mathematics, if you've given it enough flexibility to be
>>>> interesting (i.e., enough axioms to be able to count), there will be
>>>> statements that are true but cannot be proven, and others that are
>>>> false but cannot be disproven.
>>>
>>> Id doesn't matter if you care about the details or not, everyone should
>>> read Hofstadter's GEB - An Eternal Golden Braid! The book won a Pulitzer
>>> Price as well afair?
>>>
>>
>> I knew someone else would have a suggestion when I did not - and when
>> both you and Ivan agree, then I take that as a strong recommendation.  I
>> will see about ordering it myself.
>
> Oh, you definitely should.  I still remember with joy, over 40 years
> later, first reading it in my hotel room one evening while working at a
> customer's site, encountering "Crab Canon", and having my mind just
> totally blown at the incredible imagination and craft of it when I
> realized what was going on. (I won't give it away so as not to spoil
> anyone else's enjoyment.)

Afair DH wasn't even a full professor at the time GEB came out, due to
this thread I've just gone back and read his Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Hofstadter

Wow!

Terje

PS. My wife Tone & I have taken ballroom dance classes for over 30
years, I really like the fact that DH found his new wife (years after
his first wife died from brain cancer) in a cha-cha class: This is IMHO
the most fun of all the 10 ballroom dances. :-)

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me
through communication with time.
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 17:11:38 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: David Brown - Mon, 9 May 2022 15:11 UTC

On 07/05/2022 20:12, Terje Mathisen wrote:
> David Brown wrote:
>> On 07/05/2022 15:02, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>>> David Brown wrote:
>>>> Paradoxes are unavoidable - or at least, you can't prove that you
>>>> won't have them.  You want to get a good book on Gödel's
>>>> incompleteness theorem, and read it for a bit of mind-bending.  (I
>>>> don't know what would be a good choice, and of course it depends on
>>>> what balance you want between "easy reading layman explanations" and
>>>> heavy, rigorous mathematics.)  It turns out that no matter how you
>>>> define your mathematics, if you've given it enough flexibility to be
>>>> interesting (i.e., enough axioms to be able to count), there will be
>>>> statements that are true but cannot be proven, and others that are
>>>> false but cannot be disproven.
>>>
>>> Id doesn't matter if you care about the details or not, everyone should
>>> read Hofstadter's GEB - An Eternal Golden Braid! The book won a Pulitzer
>>> Price as well afair?
>>>
>>
>> I knew someone else would have a suggestion when I did not - and when
>> both you and Ivan agree, then I take that as a strong recommendation.  I
>> will see about ordering it myself.
>
> It is one a very small set of books that I have ordered (in hardcover)
> from the US and paid to have it shipped to Norway.
>

I have ordered it now. If only there was a webshop where I could buy
the time to read it! :-)

Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

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From: ant...@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 18:09:15 GMT
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 by: Anton Ertl - Mon, 9 May 2022 18:09 UTC

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>On 07/05/2022 20:12, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>> David Brown wrote:
>>> On 07/05/2022 15:02, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>>>>>Hofstadter's GEB - An Eternal Golden Braid!

>If only there was a webshop where I could buy
>the time to read it! :-)

If only I could buy back the time I wasted on reading it!

This book was hugely popular in its day (I fell for it, too), but it
was deservedly pretty much forgotten a few years later.

- anton
--
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

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Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me
through communication with time.
From: jim.brak...@ieee.org (JimBrakefield)
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 by: JimBrakefield - Mon, 9 May 2022 20:27 UTC

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 1:20:25 PM UTC-5, Anton Ertl wrote:
> David Brown <david...@hesbynett.no> writes:
> >On 07/05/2022 20:12, Terje Mathisen wrote:
> >> David Brown wrote:
> >>> On 07/05/2022 15:02, Terje Mathisen wrote:
> >>>>>Hofstadter's GEB - An Eternal Golden Braid!
> >If only there was a webshop where I could buy
> >the time to read it! :-)
> If only I could buy back the time I wasted on reading it!
>
> This book was hugely popular in its day (I fell for it, too), but it
> was deservedly pretty much forgotten a few years later.
>
> - anton
> --
> 'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
> Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7...@googlegroups.com>

Have a copy of GEB, never got beyond a hundred pages. Sorta like a botanist's description of his plants.
I think the general subject area has some potential for mathematical treatment:
Monoids: as in unification, as in how Newton unified the heavens and earth.
Unification has several advantages in software: better testability, greater reuse, etc.
Duals: as in day and night. They are important to name, do not create depth of thought.
Triples: Things begin to get interesting.
My favorite triple is: signal space, address space and symbol space
(digital circuits, computer software and a framework for AI)
(taking symbol space to be some high dimensional framework for thoughts,
triples anchor a geodesic in symbol space, so one can have a "geometry" of ideas;
my effort to solve the representation problem in AI.

Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me through communication with time.

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From: david.br...@hesbynett.no (David Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me
through communication with time.
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 15:22:31 +0200
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 by: David Brown - Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22 UTC

On 07/05/2022 09:53, Andreas Eder wrote:
> On Fr 06 Mai 2022 at 23:10, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 7:49:47 PM UTC-6, JimBrakefield wrote:
>>
>>> Flash news: Dark reals magnify mathematical ignorance.
>>> Actually it is worse than that. There are dark natural numbers:
>>> https://www.hs-augsburg.de/~mueckenh/Transfinity/Dark%20Numbers.pdf
>>> Delving further into the subject leads to politics/arguments?
>>
>> The paper claims to prove that there exist natural numbers that can't
>> be identified by a finite string of characters.
>>
>> That is simply false. Every natural number, no matter how large, can be identified
>> by a string of digits. The fact that the string of digits is so long that it could never
>> be written out by mortal man or any machine of his devising is neither here nor
>> there - the string of digits is finite, even as the number *itself* is finite.
>>
>> It's certainly true that all but an infinitesimal fraction of the natural numbers
>> will never by named or uttered by Man or any of his works. But this paper seems
>> to have a definition of 'dark' that is too broad.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> That paper is by Wolfgang Mückenheim. He is a well known crank.
>

The paper appears to be gobbledegook. You don't need to get further
than the introduction to see a mix-up between natural numbers, fractions
and real numbers, poorly defined terms, unsubstantiated claims and
invalid conclusions drawn from them.

How is anyone supposed to interpret a sentence like:

"""
It is unfamiliar and hard for mathematicians trained to believe in
completed infinity to imagine a potentially infinite set which is finite
without having a last fixed element.
"""

What on earth is a "potentially infinite set which is finite" ? How do
you have a finite set (of natural numbers) that does not have a last
element?

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Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me
through communication with time.
From: jim.brak...@ieee.org (JimBrakefield)
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 by: JimBrakefield - Tue, 10 May 2022 13:45 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:22:36 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 09:53, Andreas Eder wrote:
> > On Fr 06 Mai 2022 at 23:10, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 7:49:47 PM UTC-6, JimBrakefield wrote:
> >>
> >>> Flash news: Dark reals magnify mathematical ignorance.
> >>> Actually it is worse than that. There are dark natural numbers:
> >>> https://www.hs-augsburg.de/~mueckenh/Transfinity/Dark%20Numbers.pdf
> >>> Delving further into the subject leads to politics/arguments?
> >>
> >> The paper claims to prove that there exist natural numbers that can't
> >> be identified by a finite string of characters.
> >>
> >> That is simply false. Every natural number, no matter how large, can be identified
> >> by a string of digits. The fact that the string of digits is so long that it could never
> >> be written out by mortal man or any machine of his devising is neither here nor
> >> there - the string of digits is finite, even as the number *itself* is finite.
> >>
> >> It's certainly true that all but an infinitesimal fraction of the natural numbers
> >> will never by named or uttered by Man or any of his works. But this paper seems
> >> to have a definition of 'dark' that is too broad.
> >>
> >> John Savard
> >
> > That paper is by Wolfgang Mückenheim. He is a well known crank.
> >
> The paper appears to be gobbledegook. You don't need to get further
> than the introduction to see a mix-up between natural numbers, fractions
> and real numbers, poorly defined terms, unsubstantiated claims and
> invalid conclusions drawn from them.
>
> How is anyone supposed to interpret a sentence like:
>
> """
> It is unfamiliar and hard for mathematicians trained to believe in
> completed infinity to imagine a potentially infinite set which is finite
> without having a last fixed element.
> """
>
> What on earth is a "potentially infinite set which is finite" ? How do
> you have a finite set (of natural numbers) that does not have a last
> element?
Am struggling to find a point of view where Muckenheim makes sense.
Then again I have better things to do with my time. As one ages it becomes
a contest between the plumbing and the wiring.

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Subject: Re: The purpose of our universe simulation was just made clear to me
through communication with time.
From: already5...@yahoo.com (Michael S)
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 by: Michael S - Tue, 10 May 2022 14:11 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 4:45:39 PM UTC+3, JimBrakefield wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:22:36 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
> > On 07/05/2022 09:53, Andreas Eder wrote:
> > > On Fr 06 Mai 2022 at 23:10, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 7:49:47 PM UTC-6, JimBrakefield wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Flash news: Dark reals magnify mathematical ignorance.
> > >>> Actually it is worse than that. There are dark natural numbers:
> > >>> https://www.hs-augsburg.de/~mueckenh/Transfinity/Dark%20Numbers.pdf
> > >>> Delving further into the subject leads to politics/arguments?
> > >>
> > >> The paper claims to prove that there exist natural numbers that can't
> > >> be identified by a finite string of characters.
> > >>
> > >> That is simply false. Every natural number, no matter how large, can be identified
> > >> by a string of digits. The fact that the string of digits is so long that it could never
> > >> be written out by mortal man or any machine of his devising is neither here nor
> > >> there - the string of digits is finite, even as the number *itself* is finite.
> > >>
> > >> It's certainly true that all but an infinitesimal fraction of the natural numbers
> > >> will never by named or uttered by Man or any of his works. But this paper seems
> > >> to have a definition of 'dark' that is too broad.
> > >>
> > >> John Savard
> > >
> > > That paper is by Wolfgang Mückenheim. He is a well known crank.
> > >
> > The paper appears to be gobbledegook. You don't need to get further
> > than the introduction to see a mix-up between natural numbers, fractions
> > and real numbers, poorly defined terms, unsubstantiated claims and
> > invalid conclusions drawn from them.
> >
> > How is anyone supposed to interpret a sentence like:
> >
> > """
> > It is unfamiliar and hard for mathematicians trained to believe in
> > completed infinity to imagine a potentially infinite set which is finite
> > without having a last fixed element.
> > """
> >
> > What on earth is a "potentially infinite set which is finite" ? How do
> > you have a finite set (of natural numbers) that does not have a last
> > element?
> Am struggling to find a point of view where Muckenheim makes sense.
> Then again I have better things to do with my time. As one ages it becomes
> a contest between the plumbing and the wiring.

This branch (or branches) of math did not interested me even when I was young
and even when treated by legitimate thinkers rather than by cranks.
Somehow, my main instinctive emotion is "Who cares?".
I wonder if people like Euler and Lagrange or even Galois would consider scientists
that investigate "this sort of questions" as being of the same profession as themselves.
And what would say John Couch Adams?
On the other hand, Newton probably would be excited.

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