John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> wrote:
>
>Comparisons over time are goofy. I started programming in the spring
>of 1966, with my first job as operator/programmer (putting myself
>through undergrad school) in the fall of 1966. At that time there
>were ~35,000 computers worldwide, and to say half a mip each would be
>generous. So my one little i7 desktop has somewhat more than twice the
>processing power that existed on the entire planet Earth at that time.
>And disk, memory comparisons are pretty much similar. Moore's law at work.

It's not so much that computers have become more powerful, although as
you point out they have. It's that computers have become so cheap that
computer time has become cheap. Everybody has a CPU, many of them have
dozens, or hundreds, or thousands on their desk, so they don't have to
beg or wait for computer time.

Unfortunately as computer time has become cheap, programmer time has
become more expensive.

I remember doing a project on simple ionospheric modelling and having to
steal computer time from a local bank. I got the operators to run my
job on their 360/50 during third shift without anyone noticing. The
limitation wasn't how slow the computer was (and god was it slow doing
floats) but getting access to it at all.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article <tigjim$egf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de
(Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)) wrote:

> Both companies made things other than cars, and at least
> some of that is still intact, perhaps some of that even under
> Swedish ownership.
>
> To me, the demise of Volvo and SAAB is just one aspect of Sweden
> changing from a really different and innovative country into one
> with fewer differences to other European countries, in many cases a
> turn for the worst.

Saab AB is still in the aircraft, missile and other defence equipment
business. Their products are quite distinctive, and pretty good.

John

In article <memo.20221016194339.3296H@jgd.cix.co.uk>, jgd@cix.co.uk
(John Dallman) writes:

> In article <tigjim$egf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de
> (Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)) wrote:
>
> > Both companies made things other than cars, and at least
> > some of that is still intact, perhaps some of that even under
> > Swedish ownership.
> >
> > To me, the demise of Volvo and SAAB

CARS

> > is just one aspect of Sweden
> > changing from a really different and innovative country into one
> > with fewer differences to other European countries, in many cases a
> > turn for the worst.
>
> Saab AB is still in the aircraft, missile and other defence equipment
> business. Their products are quite distinctive, and pretty good.

Right; I left out "cars" in my statement above.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of abrsvc via Info-
> vax
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 7:17 PM
> To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
> Cc: abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What does VMS get used for, these days?
>
> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 5:26:10 PM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm
> wrote:
> > Den 2022-10-13 kl. 19:09, skrev John Dallman:
> > > In its glory days of the 1980s, VMS got used for all sorts of
> > > technical computing and business IT.
> > >
> > > My employers used it as a software development system, producing
> > > mathematical modelling code for VMS, plus a wide range of other
> platforms.
> > > Demand for the code on VMS shrank in the 1990s, and it became
> > > expensive compared to doing development on Windows. We had
> dropped
> > > it by the year 2000. We'd resume support if there was significant
> > > demand for it on x86-64, which is why I joined this newsgroup.
> > >
> > > What do you use VMS for in the 2020s?
> > Production support and control. What is called "MES" today.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_execution_system
> >
> >
> > >
> > > John
> I have direct clients in banking, manufacturing, medical lab information
> systems and other industries.
>
> Through my job supporting emulation environments, I reach many other
> industries.
>
> All working with systems powered by OpenVMS of various versions from V4
> up to current VSI versions.
>
> Dan

Not specific to OpenVMS only, but like most companies today, where a mixed OS environment exists and in cases below, includes OpenVMS:
<https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>

No idea of how current these positions are.

As example:
<https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
"The Client calculates and processes approximately $8 billion of school funding annually. The data processing systems used are a mix of COBOL and SAS programs; running on an OpenVMS mainframe; reading from Oracle databases, SAS datasets, and flat files; and writing to SAS datasets and flat files."

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 10/16/22 6:03 PM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of abrsvc via Info-
>> vax
>> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 7:17 PM
>> To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>> Cc: abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What does VMS get used for, these days?
>>
>> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 5:26:10 PM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm
>> wrote:
>>> Den 2022-10-13 kl. 19:09, skrev John Dallman:
>>>> In its glory days of the 1980s, VMS got used for all sorts of
>>>> technical computing and business IT.
>>>>
>>>> My employers used it as a software development system, producing
>>>> mathematical modelling code for VMS, plus a wide range of other
>> platforms.
>>>> Demand for the code on VMS shrank in the 1990s, and it became
>>>> expensive compared to doing development on Windows. We had
>> dropped
>>>> it by the year 2000. We'd resume support if there was significant
>>>> demand for it on x86-64, which is why I joined this newsgroup.
>>>>
>>>> What do you use VMS for in the 2020s?
>>> Production support and control. What is called "MES" today.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_execution_system
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> John
>> I have direct clients in banking, manufacturing, medical lab information
>> systems and other industries.
>>
>> Through my job supporting emulation environments, I reach many other
>> industries.
>>
>> All working with systems powered by OpenVMS of various versions from V4
>> up to current VSI versions.
>>
>> Dan
>
> Not specific to OpenVMS only, but like most companies today, where a mixed OS environment exists and in cases below, includes OpenVMS:
> <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
>
> No idea of how current these positions are.
>
> As example:
> <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
> "The Client calculates and processes approximately $8 billion of school funding annually. The data processing systems used are a mix of COBOL and SAS programs; running on an OpenVMS mainframe; reading from Oracle databases, SAS datasets, and flat files; and writing to SAS datasets and flat files."
>
>

You also neglected to mention that the job is "replacing COBOL and SAS
on OpenVMS with Python on Windows and SQL server databases." So it's
not a VMS job and soon won't be a VMS shop.

On 2022-10-15, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 10/15/2022 5:45 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> Tcp/ip networking, nfs, a wide
>>> selection of tools and even a basic C compiler to get started, made
>>> it such good value for money and reliable with it as well. Didn't
>>> return to the DEC fold until Alpha, but by then, it was too late...
>>
>> That was a lot of it... BSD Unix came with everything included, and
>> VMS really didn't.
>
> As I recall it then DEC prices on compilers, TCP/IP
> etc. was pretty high especially for larger VAX'es.
>

Yes, they were (and even on lower-end VAXes as well).

I suspect that if someone still has the old DECdirect catalogues to hand,
the prices in there might result in a case of sticker shock as well when
compared to today's prices. :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-10-15, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
> Den 2022-10-15 kl. 23:49, skrev Jan-Erik Söderholm:
>> Den 2022-10-15 kl. 23:32, skrev Toine:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> VMS is still used to host quite some MES solutions and material handling
>>> solution in quite some car/engine manufacturing plants.
>>> Applications developed in Java, Fortran, C and Python are running fine.
>>> I worked with microvax, vax stations, VAX 7000, Alpha's (GS1280 was a
>>> nice machine) but the Alpha Server 1000's did also a good job.
>>> After that we replaced our oldest Alpha servers with Rx6600 Integrity
>>> Servers and now we are running Integrity i6 servers with VSI OpenVMS on
>>> it and migration is started to run our applications on OpenVMS on x86.
>>> It is still a stable platform and easy to monitor and manage.
>>>
>>> //Toine
>>
>> I see your mail address has "volvocars" in it, so I understand what
>> you wrote. Apart from IKEA, Volvo is one of the large users of VMS,
>> at least in Sweden.
>>
>>
>
> This leads me to another question...
>
> This secrecy about who runs VMS and who doesn?t, does that help VMS?
>
> Shouldn?t it help VMS if it was known publicly who actually use VMS?
>

This secrecy is well in-grained within larger organisations and for
very good reasons.

In fact, when I saw Toine had posted using the email address he did,
my first reaction was major surprise that he had done that, because
it's contrary to what I would expect _all_ large organisations to be
telling their employees when posting to public newsgroups and other
public discussion groups.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 10/16/2022 7:10 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:
> On 10/16/22 6:03 PM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>> As example:
>> <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
>> "The Client calculates and processes approximately $8 billion of
>> school funding annually. The data processing systems used are a mix of
>> COBOL and SAS programs; running on an OpenVMS mainframe; reading from
>> Oracle databases, SAS datasets, and flat files; and writing to SAS
>> datasets and flat files."
>
> You also neglected to mention that the job is "replacing COBOL and SAS
> on OpenVMS with Python on Windows and SQL server databases."  So it's
> not a VMS job and soon won't be a VMS shop.

Not good.

But maybe not surprising.

I don't believe that current versions of Oracle DB and SAS
supports VMS.

So they had to at least change either application or platform.

And they chose to do both.

Maybe slightly surprising that they chose Windows and SQLServer -
many would have gone for Linux and either PostgreSQL or
MySQL/MariaDB, but maybe it is an MS shop.

VMS, VMS Python and Rdb would probably have been a difficult
sell, but obviously VSI should have tried.

Long term VMS needs "new applications" to supplement "old applications".

Arne

On 2022-10-16, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
>
> To me, the demise of Volvo and SAAB is just one aspect of Sweden
> changing from a really different and innovative country into one with
> fewer differences to other European countries, in many cases a turn for
> the worst.
>

Interesting. What changes are you seeing within Sweden ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Craig A. Berry
> via Info-vax
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2022 8:11 PM
> To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
> Cc: Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What does VMS get used for, these days?
>
> On 10/16/22 6:03 PM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of abrsvc via
> >> Info- vax
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 7:17 PM
> >> To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
> >> Cc: abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] What does VMS get used for, these days?
> >>
> >> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 5:26:10 PM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm
> >> wrote:
> >>> Den 2022-10-13 kl. 19:09, skrev John Dallman:
> >>>> In its glory days of the 1980s, VMS got used for all sorts of
> >>>> technical computing and business IT.
> >>>>
> >>>> My employers used it as a software development system, producing
> >>>> mathematical modelling code for VMS, plus a wide range of other
> >> platforms.
> >>>> Demand for the code on VMS shrank in the 1990s, and it became
> >>>> expensive compared to doing development on Windows. We had
> >> dropped
> >>>> it by the year 2000. We'd resume support if there was significant
> >>>> demand for it on x86-64, which is why I joined this newsgroup.
> >>>>
> >>>> What do you use VMS for in the 2020s?
> >>> Production support and control. What is called "MES" today.
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_execution_system
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> John
> >> I have direct clients in banking, manufacturing, medical lab
> >> information systems and other industries.
> >>
> >> Through my job supporting emulation environments, I reach many other
> >> industries.
> >>
> >> All working with systems powered by OpenVMS of various versions from
> >> V4 up to current VSI versions.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
> > Not specific to OpenVMS only, but like most companies today, where a
> mixed OS environment exists and in cases below, includes OpenVMS:
> > <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
> >
> > No idea of how current these positions are.
> >
> > As example:
> > <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
> > "The Client calculates and processes approximately $8 billion of school
> funding annually. The data processing systems used are a mix of COBOL and
> SAS programs; running on an OpenVMS mainframe; reading from Oracle
> databases, SAS datasets, and flat files; and writing to SAS datasets and flat
> files."
> >
> >
>
> You also neglected to mention that the job is "replacing COBOL and SAS on
> OpenVMS with Python on Windows and SQL server databases." So it's not a
> VMS job and soon won't be a VMS shop.
>

Define "soon" ...

Seen many "projects" that start up based on some new CIO with Windows background (likely propped up by Microsoft Sales types) try to make a name for themselves and then a few years later after not delivering anything close to a comparative system is off looking for a new job. I say a CIO with Windows background because any self respecting CIO with UNIX background would at least try and keep the same database - Oracle.

This screams of a Microsoft propped up proposal.

Also, replacing a compiled application with an interpreted language??

This is where I reference a link that I have posted many times in the past: 😊
< https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Jurassic-Programmers->

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 2022-10-16, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
> On 10/16/22 6:03 PM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Not specific to OpenVMS only, but like most companies today, where a mixed OS environment exists and in cases below, includes OpenVMS:
>> <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
>>
>> No idea of how current these positions are.
>>
>> As example:
>> <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
>> "The Client calculates and processes approximately $8 billion of school funding annually. The data processing systems used are a mix of COBOL and SAS programs; running on an OpenVMS mainframe; reading from Oracle databases, SAS datasets, and flat files; and writing to SAS datasets and flat files."
>>

So VMS is a "mainframe" once again ? (At least in job adverts) :-)

>
> You also neglected to mention that the job is "replacing COBOL and SAS
> on OpenVMS with Python on Windows and SQL server databases." So it's
> not a VMS job and soon won't be a VMS shop.
>

HTH do you get from needing COBOL to deciding Python is the right
choice here ? :-(

Python is very good at many things, and I use it for a good variety of
things, but this is _NOT_ what I would be using it for.

I wonder if Python has been chosen here on the basis of fashion, instead
of on technical merits.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 10/16/2022 7:35 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-10-16, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
>> On 10/16/22 6:03 PM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Not specific to OpenVMS only, but like most companies today, where a mixed OS environment exists and in cases below, includes OpenVMS:
>>> <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
>>>
>>> No idea of how current these positions are.
>>>
>>> As example:
>>> <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
>>> "The Client calculates and processes approximately $8 billion of
>>> school funding annually. The data processing systems used are a
>>> mix of COBOL and SAS programs; running on an OpenVMS mainframe;
>>> reading from Oracle databases, SAS datasets, and flat files; and
>>> writing to SAS datasets and flat files."

>> You also neglected to mention that the job is "replacing COBOL and SAS
>> on OpenVMS with Python on Windows and SQL server databases." So it's
>> not a VMS job and soon won't be a VMS shop.
>
> HTH do you get from needing COBOL to deciding Python is the right
> choice here ? :-(
>
> Python is very good at many things, and I use it for a good variety of
> things, but this is _NOT_ what I would be using it for.
>
> I wonder if Python has been chosen here on the basis of fashion, instead
> of on technical merits.

It says "data processing".

Python is the default/most common/fashion language
today for moving data from A to B.

I don't think that choice is surprising.

Arne

On 2022-10-16, <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also, replacing a compiled application with an interpreted language??
>

It's not the fact that Python is an interpreted language as multiple
languages started out as interpreted languages.

It's the fact that Python was designed for scripting tasks with everything
that implies. Python was not designed with the language features needed
to write large critical applications.

Mind you, OTOH, someone thought it was a good idea to create an ecosystem
for writing server-side Javascript. :-(

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 10/16/2022 7:32 PM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Craig A. Berry via Info-vax
>> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2022 8:11 PM
>>> As example:
>>> <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
>>> "The Client calculates and processes approximately $8 billion of school
>> funding annually. The data processing systems used are a mix of COBOL and
>> SAS programs; running on an OpenVMS mainframe; reading from Oracle
>> databases, SAS datasets, and flat files; and writing to SAS datasets and flat
>> files."
>>
>> You also neglected to mention that the job is "replacing COBOL and SAS on
>> OpenVMS with Python on Windows and SQL server databases." So it's not a
>> VMS job and soon won't be a VMS shop.
>
> Define "soon" ...
>
> Seen many "projects" that start up based on some new CIO with Windows
> background (likely propped up by Microsoft Sales types) try to make a
> name for themselves and then a few years later after not delivering
> anything close to a comparative system is off looking for a new job.
It is their stated intention.

Time will show if it happens.

Experience shows that a significant number of large IT projects
fail.

I don't think is specific for migrations to Windows.

> I say a CIO with Windows background because any self respecting CIO
> with UNIX background would at least try and keep the same database -
> Oracle.
If they needed to migrate from old Oracle DB on VMS to current
Oracle on Linux and they did not have Oracle DB on Linux but
have SQLServer on Windows, then it makes sense to pick the
latter no matter what background the CIO have.

> Also, replacing a compiled application with an interpreted language??

Python for data processing? Sure! Why not!

There is a company called Google that until a few years ago
processed all the public web pages in the world with Python.

Arne

On 10/16/2022 7:47 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-10-16, <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Also, replacing a compiled application with an interpreted language??
>
> It's not the fact that Python is an interpreted language as multiple
> languages started out as interpreted languages.
>
> It's the fact that Python was designed for scripting tasks with everything
> that implies. Python was not designed with the language features needed
> to write large critical applications.

Getting data out of one system, doing some data transformation and
putting data into another system is a scripting task!

> Mind you, OTOH, someone thought it was a good idea to create an ecosystem
> for writing server-side Javascript. :-(

You can always develop on TypeScript.

Arne

On 17/10/2022 7:28 am, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 10/16/2022 7:10 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>> On 10/16/22 6:03 PM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>>> As example:
>>> <https://www.indeed.com/q-Openvms-jobs.html?vjk=aca6c8029c23b35e>
>>>
>>>
"The Client calculates and processes approximately $8 billion of
>>> school funding annually. The data processing systems used are a
>>> mix of COBOL and SAS programs; running on an OpenVMS mainframe;
>>> reading from Oracle databases, SAS datasets, and flat files; and
>>> writing to SAS datasets and flat files."
>>
>> You also neglected to mention that the job is "replacing COBOL and
>> SAS on OpenVMS with Python on Windows and SQL server databases."
>> So it's not a VMS job and soon won't be a VMS shop.
>
> Not good.
>
> But maybe not surprising.
>
> I don't believe that current versions of Oracle DB and SAS supports
> VMS.
>
> So they had to at least change either application or platform.
>
> And they chose to do both.
>
> Maybe slightly surprising that they chose Windows and SQLServer -
> many would have gone for Linux and either PostgreSQL or
> MySQL/MariaDB, but maybe it is an MS shop.
>
> VMS, VMS Python and Rdb would probably have been a difficult sell,
> but obviously VSI should have tried.
>
> Long term VMS needs "new applications" to supplement "old
> applications".
>
> Arne
>
>

QED !Oracle = Death

In article <tii45c$38e5t$3@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:

> On 2022-10-16, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
> >
> > To me, the demise of Volvo and SAAB is just one aspect of Sweden
> > changing from a really different and innovative country into one with
> > fewer differences to other European countries, in many cases a turn for
> > the worst.
>
> Interesting. What changes are you seeing within Sweden ?

Too much for a newsgroup post. Although he has some experiences which I
don't and vice versa, I think that a very good analysis is in the book
Fishing in Utopia: Sweden and the Future That Disappeared by Andrew
Brown. It was the 2009 Orwell Prize winner. (Even apart from the
contents, the book is wonderfully written and certainly deserved the
prize.)

On 10/17/22 00:21, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-10-15, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 10/15/2022 5:45 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>> Tcp/ip networking, nfs, a wide
>>>> selection of tools and even a basic C compiler to get started, made
>>>> it such good value for money and reliable with it as well. Didn't
>>>> return to the DEC fold until Alpha, but by then, it was too late...
>>>
>>> That was a lot of it... BSD Unix came with everything included, and
>>> VMS really didn't.
>>
>> As I recall it then DEC prices on compilers, TCP/IP
>> etc. was pretty high especially for larger VAX'es.
>>
>
> Yes, they were (and even on lower-end VAXes as well).
>
> I suspect that if someone still has the old DECdirect catalogues to hand,
> the prices in there might result in a case of sticker shock as well when
> compared to today's prices. :-)
>
> Simon.
>

I remember the dec direct catalog, which had a an entry for 3 x RA60
drives in a short rack. The price ?: That will be 66,000 uk pounds
please sir. A bit steep for ~600 Mb storage total, even for dec...

Chris

On Sun, 2022-10-16 at 23:47 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
> Mind you, OTOH, someone thought it was a good idea to create an
> ecosystem for writing server-side Javascript. :-(

Yes, indeed. npm scares the hell out of me. So many opportunities to
infiltrate dodgyware into that ecosystem.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On Mon, 2022-10-17 at 10:59 +0100, chris wrote:
>
> I remember the dec direct catalog, which had a an entry for 3 x RA60
> drives in a short rack. The price ?: That will be 66,000 uk pounds
> please sir. A bit steep for ~600 Mb storage total, even for dec...

Still reassuring to know one kilogram of gold is about £50k. The RA60
cabinet was 168 kilograms.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>
>So VMS is a "mainframe" once again ? (At least in job adverts) :-)

If it's not 36 bits it's no DEC mainframe.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 10/17/2022 5:25 AM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Sun, 2022-10-16 at 23:47 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> Mind you, OTOH, someone thought it was a good idea to create an
>> ecosystem for writing server-side Javascript. :-(
>
> Yes, indeed. npm scares the hell out of me. So many opportunities to
> infiltrate dodgyware into that ecosystem.

Yes - including one library explicit and have the package
manager pull in 500 additional libraries as dependencies
and dependencies of dependencies is a risk.

No - I don't think npm is worse than Maven, NuGet, pip
etc..

Arne

On 10/17/22 11:32, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-10-17 at 10:59 +0100, chris wrote:
>>
>> I remember the dec direct catalog, which had a an entry for 3 x RA60
>> drives in a short rack. The price ?: That will be 66,000 uk pounds
>> please sir. A bit steep for ~600 Mb storage total, even for dec...
>
> Still reassuring to know one kilogram of gold is about £50k. The RA60
> cabinet was 168 kilograms.

Had a single RA60 in the lab here for a while, Extremely heavy, just
managed to lift it and sounded like a gas turbine spinning up. Power
consumption around 400 watts for a single drive, 205Mb packs. Still
have packs, but no way to read them anymore...

Chris

chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
> Had a single RA60 in the lab here for a while, Extremely heavy, just
> managed to lift it and sounded like a gas turbine spinning up. Power
> consumption around 400 watts for a single drive, 205Mb packs. Still
> have packs, but no way to read them anymore...
>
> Chris
>
At LMSC in Sunnyvale we had a 785 that booted from one of two RM05 drives.
The system disk was (we thought) backed up several times a week to several
tape volumes, and periodically to one of two other RM05 packs) which was
used for the next boot), during the overnight shift. The regular operator
did the backups, while their shift supervisor was responsible for regularly
ensuring they did that job and that everything was recorded in the shift
logbook.

I Early on Thanksgiving Day an operator who was having back trouble DROPPED
THE NEW COPY of the system pack on the floor, then TRIED TO BOOT FROM IT!!!
Of course this crashed the heads into the media, destroying both. (It
evidently never occurred to the operator that anything might be damaged.)

When that boot failed, the operator proceeded to load the previous system
pack into the same drive, crashing that pack.

When that failed, the shift supervisor (somehow unaware of the pack bounce)
was called on, and attempted to restore a tape backup and in the process
(inevitably) crashed our last remaining RM05 system pack.

At this point the supervisor called me and my senior system manager (our
lead for DEC systems). By the time We both got there, our DEC FSE was on
site as well, and the whole story of the pack and drive crashes had
emerged. The FSE repaired the drive and brought us a new pack from DEC
Santa Clara. When I went to load the first system backup tape volume, I saw
from its label that it several months old. I was also unable to find the
remaining volumes (logged in the logbook) in our tape library. (Memory here
is unclear, but I suppose that, being several old themselves, they had been
recycled for some other purpose, probably to back up the user pack.) We
also found that the shift supervisor had not run ANY other tape backups in
months!!

We began a fresh VMS install (including multiple DEC OS and layered product
updates) and called in the application maintainer to help us with
reinstalling his application. We had to reconstruct months lot of the
system and application environment (system and layered product startup
files, batch and print queues, etc.) from his and our memory.

In the end, we spent a straight 26 hours on site that holiday weekend,
before everything was up and the application’s input backlog (via KCT32
running our own special firmware) was being worked off.

Even in this imperfectly remembered horror story of my longest day as a VMS
system engineer, many weak points in our backup and operating procedures
are visible. Less visible (and harder to reconstruct) are the errors in the
operations department procedures and management, and, yes, even in overall
systems engineering (my team’s department) that allowed such flawed
procedures to evolve in the first place.

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:

>> So VMS is a "mainframe" once again ? (At least in job adverts) :-)

> If it's not 36 bits it's no DEC mainframe.
> --scott

At the 1989 DECUS Symposia at which the VAX 9000 was touted as "DEC's First
Mainframe" (which DEC's marketing department had declared in the announcement),
former members of the Large Systems SIG (by then reconstituted as the Legacy
Systems Working Group of the Site/Management/Training SIG) recreated the
(in)famous "I ain't afraid of no VAX" VAXbusters t-shirt for the 25th
anniversary of the 36 bit line (PDP-6, announced March 1964, first product ship
June 1964), as "I ain't afraid to take RISCs". On the back, there was a list
of all the 36 bit line, and "DEC's FIRST MAINFRAMES".

My t-shirt was on camera at the VAX Magic session...

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen