On 2022-08-17, David Turner <dturner@islandco.com> wrote:
> In the perfect world yes
> But remember these companies claim they hedge their purchases for fuel
> months in advance
> I call BS but that is their claim. I have never seen a fuel surcharge go
> down. Only up
>

When x86-64 VMS becomes fully available and is considered trustworthy
enough for production use do you think there is still going to be a viable
market for the hardware you sell ?

Just wondering if you have any insights into how many people are planning
to move to x86-64 VMS when it becomes fully available.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 8/18/22 08:10, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-08-17, David Turner <dturner@islandco.com> wrote:
>> In the perfect world yes
>> But remember these companies claim they hedge their purchases for fuel
>> months in advance
>> I call BS but that is their claim. I have never seen a fuel surcharge go
>> down. Only up
>>
>
> When x86-64 VMS becomes fully available and is considered trustworthy
> enough for production use do you think there is still going to be a viable
> market for the hardware you sell ?

You know, I was wondering the same thing. Another side-effect of
progress. Is it time to consider retirement?

bill

On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 8:30:43 AM UTC-4, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 8/18/22 08:10, Simon Clubley wrote:
> > On 2022-08-17, David Turner <dtu...@islandco.com> wrote:
> >> In the perfect world yes
> >> But remember these companies claim they hedge their purchases for fuel
> >> months in advance
> >> I call BS but that is their claim. I have never seen a fuel surcharge go
> >> down. Only up
> >>
> >
> > When x86-64 VMS becomes fully available and is considered trustworthy
> > enough for production use do you think there is still going to be a viable
> > market for the hardware you sell ?
> You know, I was wondering the same thing. Another side-effect of
> progress. Is it time to consider retirement?
>
> bill
Considering that there is still a market for VAX hardware (albeit small), I would think that there will be a market for Alpha and Itanium hardware for quite a while. There are often reasons for staying with hardware most often due to interface requirements. I am aware of some sites that have real VAX hardware tied to emulated Alpha systems today because of specialized interfaces in the VAX systems that aren't easy to replace. Attempts to "upgrade" to other options thus far have failed to be anywhere near as reliable as the VAX solution.

Dan

In article <tdla7f$117ie$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:

> When x86-64 VMS becomes fully available and is considered trustworthy
> enough for production use do you think there is still going to be a viable
> market for the hardware you sell ?
>
> Just wondering if you have any insights into how many people are planning
> to move to x86-64 VMS when it becomes fully available.

My guess: many with perpetual Alpha licenses will stick with Alpha
instead of moving to x86. VSI is shooting itself in the foot big time
here. Even HOBBYISTS are sticking with Alpha because of the license
issue. (Yes, the hobbyist licenses always expired, but on other
platforms there was always the fallback solution of buying a commercial
license.)

I would be happy to pay a substantial sum for a non-expiring x86
license, at least when it runs on bare metal, replacement hardware can
be found quickly and cheaply, and compilers are good.

Yes, x86 is much faster. But emulated Alpha is probably faster than the
original hardware and will become faster in the future.

Well, we are in the August slow down right now so asking me now is
probably not realistic
Many customers of mine are not going to VSI. For pricing, and the fact
that they are going to need to do a lot more work to get their applications
running on x86 variant of OpenVMS.
Also, a lot of people we deal with have trust issues with x86 hardware.
I don't know if VSI is going to support some of the older SCSI products
(*not SAS) as I have NOT had a response from VSI to actually test 9.2
natively on one of our Proliant DL380 Gen10

Would be curious if anyone knows if any of the Virtual machines support
SCSI adapters...
Also, many customers use C++ and BASIC. These are not yet ported so....

We are noticing that customers tend to buy a production server and spare
together. Most are worried about availability of hardware...

The license issue is definitely an issue too. The whole idea about an OS
not working after a time-fixed license expires is more than unnerving to
most of the people I have talked with.....

DT

On 8/18/2022 8:10 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-08-17, David Turner <dturner@islandco.com> wrote:
>> In the perfect world yes
>> But remember these companies claim they hedge their purchases for fuel
>> months in advance
>> I call BS but that is their claim. I have never seen a fuel surcharge go
>> down. Only up
>>
> When x86-64 VMS becomes fully available and is considered trustworthy
> enough for production use do you think there is still going to be a viable
> market for the hardware you sell ?
>
> Just wondering if you have any insights into how many people are planning
> to move to x86-64 VMS when it becomes fully available.
>
> Simon.
>

In article <hradnfNXzdbSIWL_nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@supernews.com>, David
Turner <dturner@islandco.com> writes:

> The license issue is definitely an issue too. The whole idea about an OS
> not working after a time-fixed license expires is more than unnerving to
> most of the people I have talked with.....

Maybe VSI will wake up.

On 2022-08-19, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
> In article <hradnfNXzdbSIWL_nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@supernews.com>, David
> Turner <dturner@islandco.com> writes:
>
>> The license issue is definitely an issue too. The whole idea about an OS
>> not working after a time-fixed license expires is more than unnerving to
>> most of the people I have talked with.....
>
> Maybe VSI will wake up.
>

I would hope so.

This no longer people here on comp.os.vms saying these things. These are
real paying customers of David's that he directly interacts with and which
VSI would love to turn into _their_ customers instead if they could.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 8/19/2022 12:38 PM, David Turner wrote:
> Well, we are in the August slow down right now so asking me now is probably not
> realistic
> Many customers of mine are not going to VSI. For pricing, and the fact that they
> are going to need to do a lot more work to get their applications
> running on x86 variant of OpenVMS.

Not sure what the pricing problem is?

As in the past, I'm expecting compile, link, and run.

> Also, a lot of people we deal with have trust issues with x86 hardware.

HW is HW, none are totally safe.

> I don't know if VSI is going to support some of the older SCSI products (*not
> SAS) as I have NOT had a response from VSI to actually test 9.2 natively on one
> of our Proliant DL380 Gen10

I don't see the issue. New systems will have whatever disks are appropriate.

> Would be curious if anyone knows if any of the Virtual machines support SCSI
> adapters...
> Also, many customers use C++ and BASIC. These are not yet ported so....
>
> We are noticing that customers tend to buy a production server and spare
> together. Most are worried about availability of hardware...

Should not be an issue with x86.

> The license issue is definitely an issue too. The whole idea about an OS not
> working after a time-fixed license expires is more than unnerving to most of the
> people I have talked with.....
>
>
> DT

Compilers: I have faith in John and his lads & lasses. Might take some time.

Licenses:

Ok, here is how things will play out.

1) VSI listens to the potential customers. They should provide perpetual
licenses, and the customers will agree to maintain a reasonable support contract
as long as VSI is in business and they use VMS for commercial use.

2) VSI doesn't listen to the potential customers, and VMS and VSI die. They
might linger for a while. But it is entirely unreasonable for a customer to
be left hanging if VSI isn't around.

So, the initiative will first be with the potential customers to inform VSI what
is acceptable, and then with VSI to conform, or not.

We at Consolidated Data were very clear about the choices. We would get what we
needed, or, would not move to x86. All customers need to be firm about this.

Basically, every potential customer should inform VSI of their requirements, and
leave contact information. If VSI will conform, they will get the customers.
What should NOT happen is customers just not like what they are hearing and
quietly go away. Strongly inform VSI of the requirements.

Frankly, I don't expect VSI to commit suicide. Could be wrong. But it doesn't
make any sense. Guess we'll see when x86 is ready for prime time, and that
means native compilers.

At least that's how I see things.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 8/19/22 11:38 AM, David Turner wrote:

> Would be curious if anyone knows if any of the Virtual machines support
> SCSI adapters...

The 9.2 release notes:

https://vmssoftware.com/docs/VSI_OpenVMS_x86-64_V92_Release_Notes.pdf

say:

-----
1.1. Supported Disk Types
VSI OpenVMS x86-64 V9.2 supports SATA disks.
An issue with OpenVMS x86-64 V9.2 prevents support for LSI Logic
Parallel SCSI controllers on ESXi. A fix for this issue is expected to
be available shortly after the release of VSI OpenVMS x86-64 V9.2.
Support for other disk types will be added in future releases of VSI
OpenVMS x86-64.
-----

So, like a lot of other important things, not yet.

On 2022-08-19, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> On 8/19/2022 12:38 PM, David Turner wrote:
>> Well, we are in the August slow down right now so asking me now is probably not
>> realistic
>> Many customers of mine are not going to VSI. For pricing, and the fact that they
>> are going to need to do a lot more work to get their applications
>> running on x86 variant of OpenVMS.
>
> Not sure what the pricing problem is?
>

I wonder if it's a reference to licence pricing ?

> As in the past, I'm expecting compile, link, and run.
>
>> Also, a lot of people we deal with have trust issues with x86 hardware.
>
> HW is HW, none are totally safe.
>

Due to all the management stuff going into some hardware, and which
operates at a level below that of even the operating system, some
hardware is far less secure than other hardware.

>
> So, the initiative will first be with the potential customers to inform VSI what
> is acceptable, and then with VSI to conform, or not.
>

Just in case you have forgotten, the French have already tried this.
We know the VSI response to that attempt because it's now a matter
of public record.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 8/22/2022 1:31 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-08-19, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 8/19/2022 12:38 PM, David Turner wrote:
>>> Well, we are in the August slow down right now so asking me now is probably not
>>> realistic
>>> Many customers of mine are not going to VSI. For pricing, and the fact that they
>>> are going to need to do a lot more work to get their applications
>>> running on x86 variant of OpenVMS.
>>
>> Not sure what the pricing problem is?
>>
>
> I wonder if it's a reference to licence pricing ?
>
>> As in the past, I'm expecting compile, link, and run.
>>
>>> Also, a lot of people we deal with have trust issues with x86 hardware.
>>
>> HW is HW, none are totally safe.
>>
>
> Due to all the management stuff going into some hardware, and which
> operates at a level below that of even the operating system, some
> hardware is far less secure than other hardware.

What choice is there anymore. At some time, the last Alpha will die. At some
time, the last itanic will sink.

>> So, the initiative will first be with the potential customers to inform VSI what
>> is acceptable, and then with VSI to conform, or not.
>>
>
> Just in case you have forgotten, the French have already tried this.
> We know the VSI response to that attempt because it's now a matter
> of public record.
>
> Simon.
>

I am aware that the French aren't happy. I'm not aware of a specific VSI response.

As I mentioned, my people are NOT moving to x86 unless the terms are to our
liking. If enough potential customers take this stance, what do you think VSI
will do?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Hi David,
I would happily take one (or two) off your hands. My AXP3000 could use the company.

On 2022-08-22, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> On 8/22/2022 1:31 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-08-19, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> On 8/19/2022 12:38 PM, David Turner wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, a lot of people we deal with have trust issues with x86 hardware.
>>>
>>> HW is HW, none are totally safe.
>>>
>>
>> Due to all the management stuff going into some hardware, and which
>> operates at a level below that of even the operating system, some
>> hardware is far less secure than other hardware.
>
> What choice is there anymore. At some time, the last Alpha will die. At some
> time, the last itanic will sink.
>

AMD _appears_ to be a little bit better than Intel (but only a bit better).

Other operating systems also have hardware options not available to VMS.

>>> So, the initiative will first be with the potential customers to inform VSI what
>>> is acceptable, and then with VSI to conform, or not.
>>>
>>
>> Just in case you have forgotten, the French have already tried this.
>> We know the VSI response to that attempt because it's now a matter
>> of public record.
>>
>
> I am aware that the French aren't happy. I'm not aware of a specific VSI response.
>

First formal response I am aware of:

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms/c/cOOF2x1LPX8
https://www.connect-community.de/SIGs/OpenVMS/license

A brief later response (which also includes answers to a lot of other issues):

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms/c/NNb9TbgE_K0
https://www.vmsgenerations.fr/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Questions-from-VMSgenerations-Answers-from-VSI.pdf

> As I mentioned, my people are NOT moving to x86 unless the terms are to our
> liking. If enough potential customers take this stance, what do you think VSI
> will do?
>

Right now they appear to be very bloody-minded about the whole thing. :-(

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

According to my source for these, they are on a container ship right now
on the Pacific headed to the USA
I will update you all when I get the call from the logistics company in
Savannah

On 8/8/2022 3:12 PM, David Turner wrote:
> Was wondering if anyone is interested
>
> We just purchased the majority of Air Traffic control servers, which
> are DS10s (being replaced with laptops I shit you not!)
> They all work and all have almost new power supplies in them
>
> We are waiting for a shipping quote  and they will be here probably
> end of October if anyone is going to want one
>
> We will charge the shipping fee plus the cost to let them loose over
> here in the USA
>
> Let me know if interested
>
>
> David Turner
>
> dturner-at-islandco-dot-com
>

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 3:38:11 PM UTC-7, David Turner wrote:
> According to my source for these, they are on a container ship right now
> on the Pacific headed to the USA
I hope they don't sink:

https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/felicity-ace-sank-porsche-lamborghini-10000-feet-under-sea-vw/

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 5:38:11 PM UTC-5, David Turner wrote:
> According to my source for these, they are on a container ship right now
> on the Pacific headed to the USA
> I will update you all when I get the call from the logistics company in
> Savannah
> On 8/8/2022 3:12 PM, David Turner wrote:
> > Was wondering if anyone is interested
> >
> > We just purchased the majority of Air Traffic control servers, which
> > are DS10s (being replaced with laptops I shit you not!)
> > They all work and all have almost new power supplies in them
> >
> > We are waiting for a shipping quote and they will be here probably
> > end of October if anyone is going to want one
> >
> > We will charge the shipping fee plus the cost to let them loose over
> > here in the USA
> >
> > Let me know if interested
> >
> >
> > David Turner
> >
> > dturner-at-islandco-dot-com
> >
I missed this thread earlier. My DS10 is actually a 466Mhz DS10-L mainboard transplanted into a DS10 case with DS10 riser (the DS10 mainboard failed badly), and an Islandco power supply. It works fine except that it won't support the higher end video cards (machine just locks up and fails post). Gig card and KZPEA cards, no problem, but I'd like to get a purpose made DS10 that will support the 4D20 or Powerstorm 300 PCI card.

Looking forward to your post and pricing.

Just update firmware to 7.3-1 (firmware not VMS)
That updates the board

Also to convert the DS10L to DS10 motherboard - call me and i will send
instructions

Also people. I got a confirmation the servers are definitely on the high
seas on their way to us in Savannah
So sometime before Xmas I was told they will arrive here. Once they get
here, we will have to pay import duty and fees, shipping clearance etc.
We will simply divide the total by the number of servers (minus about
10% for failures) and then we will have our cost.
Then we will price the servers according to that.  I am guessing
something like $400 each but maybe less

On 10/24/2022 2:53 PM, Rich Jordan wrote:
> On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 5:38:11 PM UTC-5, David Turner wrote:
>> According to my source for these, they are on a container ship right now
>> on the Pacific headed to the USA
>> I will update you all when I get the call from the logistics company in
>> Savannah
>> On 8/8/2022 3:12 PM, David Turner wrote:
>>> Was wondering if anyone is interested
>>>
>>> We just purchased the majority of Air Traffic control servers, which
>>> are DS10s (being replaced with laptops I shit you not!)
>>> They all work and all have almost new power supplies in them
>>>
>>> We are waiting for a shipping quote and they will be here probably
>>> end of October if anyone is going to want one
>>>
>>> We will charge the shipping fee plus the cost to let them loose over
>>> here in the USA
>>>
>>> Let me know if interested
>>>
>>>
>>> David Turner
>>>
>>> dturner-at-islandco-dot-com
>>>
> I missed this thread earlier. My DS10 is actually a 466Mhz DS10-L mainboard transplanted into a DS10 case with DS10 riser (the DS10 mainboard failed badly), and an Islandco power supply. It works fine except that it won't support the higher end video cards (machine just locks up and fails post). Gig card and KZPEA cards, no problem, but I'd like to get a purpose made DS10 that will support the 4D20 or Powerstorm 300 PCI card.
>
> Looking forward to your post and pricing.

D. Turner,
I am in for two at your most recent estimate, fully appreciating it is ballpark. If you know the vessel name, would you mind posting it? @gah4 seems especially concerned, but there are probably others interested in tracking.

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:29:34 AM UTC-7, davidj.ro...@gmail.com wrote:
(snip)

> If you know the vessel name, would you mind posting it?

> @gah4 seems especially concerned, but there are probably others interested in tracking.

We had ordered a car, though coming from Asia, at that time.

But sinking cargo we don't think much about now.

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 14:51 -0700, gah4 wrote:
>  > If you know the vessel name, would you mind posting it?
>
> > @gah4 seems especially concerned, but there are probably others
> > interested in tracking.
>
> We had ordered a car, though coming from Asia, at that time.
>
> But sinking cargo we don't think much about now.

It's estimated 10% of the world's cargo is lost at sea. Either through
carelessness or piracy it doesn't sasy.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Not sure if any of these are left or still there, but would be interested as well....

On 5/1/2023 6:41 AM, Gary Sparkes wrote:
> Not sure if any of these are left or still there, but would be interested as well....
>

You can go to David's web site and order one, or two, or ...

Look for Island Computers.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

We still have 60+ Alphaserver DS10 617Mhz left in stock

Link:

https://www.islandco.com/hp-alphaserver/hp-alphaserver-ds10/alphaserver-ds10-600mhz-special-cto-server

On 2023-05-02, David Turner <dturner@islandco.com> wrote:
> We still have 60+ Alphaserver DS10 617Mhz left in stock
>
>
> Link:
>
>
> https://www.islandco.com/hp-alphaserver/hp-alphaserver-ds10/alphaserver-ds10-600mhz-special-cto-server
>

Interesting that you still have that number left. IIRC, in the old days,
your Alpha systems used to be sold rather quickly. Has there been a move
to Itanium systems or to Alpha emulators ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Den 2023-05-02 kl. 19:31, skrev Simon Clubley:
> On 2023-05-02, David Turner <dturner@islandco.com> wrote:
>> We still have 60+ Alphaserver DS10 617Mhz left in stock
>>
>>
>> Link:
>>
>>
>> https://www.islandco.com/hp-alphaserver/hp-alphaserver-ds10/alphaserver-ds10-600mhz-special-cto-server
>>
>
> Interesting that you still have that number left. IIRC, in the old days,
> your Alpha systems used to be sold rather quickly. Has there been a move
> to Itanium systems or to Alpha emulators ?
>
> Simon.
>

According to a friend that deals with older equipment
in Sweden, it was the DS15/DS25 systems that was really
looked for and was (this was a couple of years ago)
priced "very well", so to speak.