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computers / alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent / Scrambled Threads

SubjectAuthor
* Scrambled Threadscroy
+* Re: Scrambled ThreadsGeoff
|`* Re: Scrambled Threadscroy
| `- Re: Scrambled ThreadsArthur T.
`* Re: Scrambled ThreadsArthur T.
 `* Re: Scrambled Threadscroy
  +* Re: Scrambled ThreadsArthur T.
  |`* Re: Scrambled ThreadsRalph Fox
  | `- Re: Scrambled ThreadsArthur T.
  `- Re: Scrambled ThreadsRalph Fox

1
Scrambled Threads

<itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2538&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2538

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From: cro...@spam.invalid.net (croy)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Scrambled Threads
Reply-To: croy@pam.invalid.net
Message-ID: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com>
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 09:56:37 -0700
X-Received-Bytes: 1026
 by: croy - Fri, 18 Jun 2021 16:56 UTC

Recently, Agent seems to be scrambling threads: a recent message in a decades-old thread, or a
decades old message in a recent thread. The subject is very different, but I usually don't
notice that until I've spents a minute or two trying to screw my brain back together.

--
croy

Re: Scrambled Threads

<g8upcgp3l239bsev9mrh1voin0jbi0i6gu@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2539&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2539

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: geo...@invalid.invalid (Geoff)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Re: Scrambled Threads
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 12:52:30 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <g8upcgp3l239bsev9mrh1voin0jbi0i6gu@4ax.com>
References: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="0ef04b3b53f4368ae52e489c8ab4f533";
logging-data="24836"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18xcOgswtY1fY+qwuKjn47bSin0b8bLiLs="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.20.32.1218
Cancel-Lock: sha1:RtR2dVcvlN1yNxvhBpeRaQR2Igc=
 by: Geoff - Fri, 18 Jun 2021 19:52 UTC

On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 09:56:37 -0700, croy <croy@spam.invalid.net>
wrote:

>Recently, Agent seems to be scrambling threads: a recent message in a decades-old thread, or a
>decades old message in a recent thread. The subject is very different, but I usually don't
>notice that until I've spents a minute or two trying to screw my brain back together.

Did you accidentally turn off threaded sort? The little + icon to the
right of the Status column in the message list pane should be
depressed for threaded sort.

Re: Scrambled Threads

<1c4qcgpnk90q6h7svj48spp1dvd99f696f@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2540&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2540

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.dns-netz.com!news.freedyn.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx48.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: art...@munged.invalid (Arthur T.)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Re: Scrambled Threads
Message-ID: <1c4qcgpnk90q6h7svj48spp1dvd99f696f@4ax.com>
References: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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X-Complaints-To: https://www.astraweb.com/aup
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 21:39:49 UTC
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 17:39:51 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 1577
 by: Arthur T. - Fri, 18 Jun 2021 21:39 UTC

In Message-ID:<itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com>,
croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

>Recently, Agent seems to be scrambling threads: a recent message in a decades-old thread, or a
>decades old message in a recent thread. The subject is very different, but I usually don't
>notice that until I've spents a minute or two trying to screw my brain back together.

Do you have a lot of messages in that newsgroup? If so, this
conversation from long ago might be applicable:

>>This is an Agent bug.
>>Welcome to the wonderful world of "hash collisions".
>It's a great improvement over the world of "what the heck?".

If that's the problem, the solution is reduce the number of messages
you've kept in that group. When Usenet was more active, I used to
create annual folders to hold the old messages I wanted to keep.

--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

Re: Scrambled Threads

<dmpqcg99f7c97f3rokbbiis6camn6g1iri@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2541&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2541

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed9.news.xs4all.nl!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx29.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: cro...@spam.invalid.net (croy)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Re: Scrambled Threads
Reply-To: croy@pam.invalid.net
Message-ID: <dmpqcg99f7c97f3rokbbiis6camn6g1iri@4ax.com>
References: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com> <g8upcgp3l239bsev9mrh1voin0jbi0i6gu@4ax.com>
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 20:39:24 -0700
X-Received-Bytes: 1495
 by: croy - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 03:39 UTC

On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 12:52:30 -0700, Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 09:56:37 -0700, croy <croy@spam.invalid.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Recently, Agent seems to be scrambling threads: a recent message in a decades-old thread, or a
>>decades old message in a recent thread. The subject is very different, but I usually don't
>>notice that until I've spents a minute or two trying to screw my brain back together.
>
>Did you accidentally turn off threaded sort? The little + icon to the
>right of the Status column in the message list pane should be
>depressed for threaded sort.

It is still depressed.

--
croy

Re: Scrambled Threads

<6ppqcglo5k48966tk9hlkrv9qq78es4mbb@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2542&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2542

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From: cro...@spam.invalid.net (croy)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Re: Scrambled Threads
Reply-To: croy@pam.invalid.net
Message-ID: <6ppqcglo5k48966tk9hlkrv9qq78es4mbb@4ax.com>
References: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com> <1c4qcgpnk90q6h7svj48spp1dvd99f696f@4ax.com>
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 20:42:16 -0700
X-Received-Bytes: 1896
 by: croy - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 03:42 UTC

On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 17:39:51 -0400, Arthur T. <arthur@munged.invalid> wrote:

>In Message-ID:<itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com>,
>croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:
>
>>Recently, Agent seems to be scrambling threads: a recent message in a decades-old thread, or a
>>decades old message in a recent thread. The subject is very different, but I usually don't
>>notice that until I've spents a minute or two trying to screw my brain back together.
>
>Do you have a lot of messages in that newsgroup? If so, this
>conversation from long ago might be applicable:
>
>>>This is an Agent bug.
>>>Welcome to the wonderful world of "hash collisions".
>>It's a great improvement over the world of "what the heck?".

234,259 in one group.

>If that's the problem, the solution is reduce the number of messages
>you've kept in that group. When Usenet was more active, I used to
>create annual folders to hold the old messages I wanted to keep.

Hmmm. Thanks for that. I've never used folders that way in Agent.

--
croy

Re: Scrambled Threads

<fqtqcghtooihrh2416sdt6561j3gnmce2k@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2543&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2543

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed8.news.xs4all.nl!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc3.netnews.com!peer02.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx28.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: art...@munged.invalid (Arthur T.)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Re: Scrambled Threads
Message-ID: <fqtqcghtooihrh2416sdt6561j3gnmce2k@4ax.com>
References: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com> <1c4qcgpnk90q6h7svj48spp1dvd99f696f@4ax.com> <6ppqcglo5k48966tk9hlkrv9qq78es4mbb@4ax.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
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X-Complaints-To: https://www.astraweb.com/aup
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 04:53:04 UTC
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 00:53:04 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 1354
 by: Arthur T. - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 04:53 UTC

In Message-ID:<6ppqcglo5k48966tk9hlkrv9qq78es4mbb@4ax.com>,
croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

>>Do you have a lot of messages in that newsgroup? If so, this
>>conversation from long ago might be applicable:
>>
>>>>This is an Agent bug.
>>>>Welcome to the wonderful world of "hash collisions".
>>>It's a great improvement over the world of "what the heck?".
>
>234,259 in one group.

A quick search doesn't show what size Agent uses for its message
hashes, but I've had (very rare) collisions at a tenth that size.

--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

Re: Scrambled Threads

<l1uqcghe1g74ulcm86srif2gbjcu8dac9p@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2544&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2544

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx28.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: art...@munged.invalid (Arthur T.)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Re: Scrambled Threads
Message-ID: <l1uqcghe1g74ulcm86srif2gbjcu8dac9p@4ax.com>
References: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com> <g8upcgp3l239bsev9mrh1voin0jbi0i6gu@4ax.com> <dmpqcg99f7c97f3rokbbiis6camn6g1iri@4ax.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 04:53:13 UTC
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 00:53:13 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 1237
 by: Arthur T. - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 04:53 UTC

In Message-ID:<dmpqcg99f7c97f3rokbbiis6camn6g1iri@4ax.com>,
croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

>>Did you accidentally turn off threaded sort? The little + icon to the
>>right of the Status column in the message list pane should be
>>depressed for threaded sort.
>
>
>It is still depressed.

Try singing it a song or buying it some ice cream.

Sorry, it was just too good a straight line to pass up.

--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

Re: Scrambled Threads

<ko0rcg9l5amdohorbdp1qqsvsv9o0ub2mi@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2545&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2545

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc3.netnews.com!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx07.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: -rf-...@-.invalid (Ralph Fox)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Re: Scrambled Threads
Message-ID: <ko0rcg9l5amdohorbdp1qqsvsv9o0ub2mi@4ax.com>
References: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com> <1c4qcgpnk90q6h7svj48spp1dvd99f696f@4ax.com> <6ppqcglo5k48966tk9hlkrv9qq78es4mbb@4ax.com>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
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X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 17:44:38 +1200
X-Received-Bytes: 2833
 by: Ralph Fox - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 05:44 UTC

On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 20:42:16 -0700, croy wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 17:39:51 -0400, Arthur T. <arthur@munged.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In Message-ID:<itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com>,
>> croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Recently, Agent seems to be scrambling threads: a recent message in a decades-old thread, or a
>>> decades old message in a recent thread. The subject is very different, but I usually don't
>>> notice that until I've spents a minute or two trying to screw my brain back together.
>>
>> Do you have a lot of messages in that newsgroup? If so, this
>> conversation from long ago might be applicable:
>>
>>>> This is an Agent bug.
>>>> Welcome to the wonderful world of "hash collisions".
>>> It's a great improvement over the world of "what the heck?".
>
> 234,259 in one group.

This message from 1997 has a table showing the probability of a "hash
collision" in a group, vs. the number of headers in the group.

<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent/c/zzElLwjhaS8/m/nB9Dv1dWJCwJ>

Google Groups mangles the layout spacing, so here is the original.
table. This is best viewed in a fixed-pitch font.

| >| 0.0001 0.001 0.01 0.1 0.5@ 0.9 0.99 0.999 0.9999
| >|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| >| 67108786: 117 367 1162 3761 9646@ 17580 24861 30448 35157

>> If that's the problem, the solution is reduce the number of messages
>> you've kept in that group. When Usenet was more active, I used to
>> create annual folders to hold the old messages I wanted to keep.
>
> Hmmm. Thanks for that. I've never used folders that way in Agent.

--
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊

Re: Scrambled Threads

<u82rcgtinu8dc3eka14m7402ujbn1bj692@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2546&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2546

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From: -rf-...@-.invalid (Ralph Fox)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Re: Scrambled Threads
Message-ID: <u82rcgtinu8dc3eka14m7402ujbn1bj692@4ax.com>
References: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com> <1c4qcgpnk90q6h7svj48spp1dvd99f696f@4ax.com> <6ppqcglo5k48966tk9hlkrv9qq78es4mbb@4ax.com> <fqtqcghtooihrh2416sdt6561j3gnmce2k@4ax.com>
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X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 18:07:30 +1200
X-Received-Bytes: 1843
 by: Ralph Fox - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 06:07 UTC

On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 00:53:04 -0400, Arthur T. wrote:

> A quick search doesn't show what size Agent uses for its message
> hashes

See this 1997 message from Sherlog:
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent/c/VzjDcsZ-7b8/m/Yp9_H6T7du0J>
Message-ID: <3370f7be.46129406@J.E.H.A.D>

For message-ids the hash is effectively 25 bits, not 26, in spite
of what that message says. The last character in the hash of a
message-id is always '>' and, because of the way the hash is
actually calculated, this effectively reduces the range from 26
bits to 25 bits for message-ids.

If "Enable threading by subject" is checked (the default) then one
can also get subject line hash collisions.

--
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊

Re: Scrambled Threads

<9a5rcg5vbm4eo0c663iubh84tpsp6275o6@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=2547&group=alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent#2547

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From: art...@munged.invalid (Arthur T.)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent
Subject: Re: Scrambled Threads
Message-ID: <9a5rcg5vbm4eo0c663iubh84tpsp6275o6@4ax.com>
References: <itjpcg5k9fb6s3tacvuk9vuedlc0u3fdti@4ax.com> <1c4qcgpnk90q6h7svj48spp1dvd99f696f@4ax.com> <6ppqcglo5k48966tk9hlkrv9qq78es4mbb@4ax.com> <fqtqcghtooihrh2416sdt6561j3gnmce2k@4ax.com> <u82rcgtinu8dc3eka14m7402ujbn1bj692@4ax.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 07:07:37 UTC
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 03:07:37 -0400
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 by: Arthur T. - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 07:07 UTC

In Message-ID:<u82rcgtinu8dc3eka14m7402ujbn1bj692@4ax.com>,
Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:

>For message-ids the hash is effectively 25 bits, not 26, in spite
>of what that message says. The last character in the hash of a
>message-id is always '>' and, because of the way the hash is
>actually calculated, this effectively reduces the range from 26
>bits to 25 bits for message-ids.

Thank you for that information.

The table you reproduced earlier seems to have been calculated based
on 26-bit hashes. Recomputed for 25-bit, I get these numbers for how
many messages needed for what chances of at least one hash collision
(in parens are the numbers I computed based on 26-bit hashes, which
match that other table):

50% 6821 (9646)
90% 12431 (17580)
99% 17579 (24861)

I didn't bother to redo the whole table, just these 3 points.

--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

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