On 11/1/2022 4:13 PM, David Goodwin wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 8:30:18 AM UTC+13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 11/1/2022 6:16 AM, David Goodwin wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 1:59:20 PM UTC+13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> Until VMS will get on the short list then it is not an option.
>>>>
>>>> If VMS makes it to the short list then I am not so worried
>>>> about the picking phase.
>>>>
>>>> Sure it would be a problem if the goal was to make it
>>>> VMS-Linux 50%-50%. Convincing 50% of the decision makes
>>>> to pick VMS would not be easy.
>>>>
>>>> But if the goal is the more realistic VMS-Linux 1%-99%,
>>>> then it is a lot easier. Some decision makers will be
>>>> willing to look at less common alternatives. Some
>>>> decision makers will have had a recent bad experience
>>>> with Linux.
>>>
>>> Even if the software was available on OpenVMS, why would you
>>> choose it over Linux? Why subject your business to the high licensing
>>> costs, yearly license renewals, and difficulty of finding skilled staff?
>>> All to run software that was probably ported from Linux anyway? What
>>> is the actual selling point of OpenVMS to potential customers?
>> If gratis is the goal, then VMS is not the answer.
>>
>> But there are still companies willing to pay.
>>> And probably the reason why there is no software for OpenVMS is that
>>> it's too obscure, almost certainly because of it's licensing situation. Until
>>> its cheap and easy to license like its competitors, I don't really see it
>>> having any chance.
>> I am not aware of buying VMS licenses should not be easy. You
>> contact VSI, you pay and you get your license. Anyone have had
>> problems?
>>
>> Some may think the price is too high. But heck I also think that
>> Ferrari's are too expensive as I can't afford one, but that is life.
>
> I don't have to contact Microsoft to buy windows licenses - I can do it all
> online with my credit card. I don't even *have* to buy a linux license - I
> can just download the ISO. Even something as obscure and niche as OS/2
> I can just buy online from the Arca Noae online store. The prices are all
> right there in the open.

We ain't talking about spur-of-the-moment purchasing. A serious customer has no
problem working with a vendor.

I'll agree that a bit more openness would be good.

> What does OpenVMS cost? I really have no idea - I'd have to email
> someone. And is the cost going to be the same as what everyone else
> is paying or am I going to be charged extra because I'm not a big
> customer? I'll likely never know.

If you're using VMS in a serious manner, the cost of the OS and maintenance is
way down your list of priorities.

> OpenVMS is competing with Linux which is pretty much the default
> choice for everyone who isn't so heavily invested in Microsoft stuff
> they can't move, has huge network effects working in its favor, already
> runs all the stuff you want and almost certainly runs it better than any
> other platform, and has a fully functional 100% free tier that allows
> commercial use if you're on a tight budget.

Well, it sure doesn't run the "stuff" my customer(s) need. They have been
looking. It ain't there.

> Given the odds are so heavily stacked against OpenVMS, why is VSI
> putting up roadblocks?

Good question ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 11/1/2022 4:13 PM, David Goodwin wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 8:30:18 AM UTC+13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 11/1/2022 6:16 AM, David Goodwin wrote:
>>> And probably the reason why there is no software for OpenVMS is that
>>> it's too obscure, almost certainly because of it's licensing situation. Until
>>> its cheap and easy to license like its competitors, I don't really see it
>>> having any chance.
>> I am not aware of buying VMS licenses should not be easy. You
>> contact VSI, you pay and you get your license. Anyone have had
>> problems?
>>
>> Some may think the price is too high. But heck I also think that
>> Ferrari's are too expensive as I can't afford one, but that is life.
>
> I don't have to contact Microsoft to buy windows licenses - I can do it all
> online with my credit card. I don't even *have* to buy a linux license - I
> can just download the ISO. Even something as obscure and niche as OS/2
> I can just buy online from the Arca Noae online store. The prices are all
> right there in the open.
>
> What does OpenVMS cost? I really have no idea - I'd have to email
> someone. And is the cost going to be the same as what everyone else
> is paying or am I going to be charged extra because I'm not a big
> customer? I'll likely never know.

In the consumer market buying in web shop, download image
and get the license in the email is common.

I am a bit skeptical about that being the case in the market
VMS operates in. Usually it is "friendly" sales people working
with customers to make sure they get the right stuff, get some
special discount, discuss service agreement options and asking if
they need consultant help installing.

But if VSI customers want self service, then setting up
a web shop would be very easy for VSI.

Arne

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:20:42 PM UTC+13, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 11/1/2022 4:13 PM, David Goodwin wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 8:30:18 AM UTC+13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> On 11/1/2022 6:16 AM, David Goodwin wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 1:59:20 PM UTC+13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >>>> Until VMS will get on the short list then it is not an option.
> >>>>
> >>>> If VMS makes it to the short list then I am not so worried
> >>>> about the picking phase.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sure it would be a problem if the goal was to make it
> >>>> VMS-Linux 50%-50%. Convincing 50% of the decision makes
> >>>> to pick VMS would not be easy.
> >>>>
> >>>> But if the goal is the more realistic VMS-Linux 1%-99%,
> >>>> then it is a lot easier. Some decision makers will be
> >>>> willing to look at less common alternatives. Some
> >>>> decision makers will have had a recent bad experience
> >>>> with Linux.
> >>>
> >>> Even if the software was available on OpenVMS, why would you
> >>> choose it over Linux? Why subject your business to the high licensing
> >>> costs, yearly license renewals, and difficulty of finding skilled staff?
> >>> All to run software that was probably ported from Linux anyway? What
> >>> is the actual selling point of OpenVMS to potential customers?
> >> If gratis is the goal, then VMS is not the answer.
> >>
> >> But there are still companies willing to pay.
> >>> And probably the reason why there is no software for OpenVMS is that
> >>> it's too obscure, almost certainly because of it's licensing situation. Until
> >>> its cheap and easy to license like its competitors, I don't really see it
> >>> having any chance.
> >> I am not aware of buying VMS licenses should not be easy. You
> >> contact VSI, you pay and you get your license. Anyone have had
> >> problems?
> >>
> >> Some may think the price is too high. But heck I also think that
> >> Ferrari's are too expensive as I can't afford one, but that is life.
> >
> > I don't have to contact Microsoft to buy windows licenses - I can do it all
> > online with my credit card. I don't even *have* to buy a linux license - I
> > can just download the ISO. Even something as obscure and niche as OS/2
> > I can just buy online from the Arca Noae online store. The prices are all
> > right there in the open.
> We ain't talking about spur-of-the-moment purchasing. A serious customer has no
> problem working with a vendor.
>
> I'll agree that a bit more openness would be good.
> > What does OpenVMS cost? I really have no idea - I'd have to email
> > someone. And is the cost going to be the same as what everyone else
> > is paying or am I going to be charged extra because I'm not a big
> > customer? I'll likely never know.
> If you're using VMS in a serious manner, the cost of the OS and maintenance is
> way down your list of priorities.
> > OpenVMS is competing with Linux which is pretty much the default
> > choice for everyone who isn't so heavily invested in Microsoft stuff
> > they can't move, has huge network effects working in its favor, already
> > runs all the stuff you want and almost certainly runs it better than any
> > other platform, and has a fully functional 100% free tier that allows
> > commercial use if you're on a tight budget.
> Well, it sure doesn't run the "stuff" my customer(s) need. They have been
> looking. It ain't there.
> > Given the odds are so heavily stacked against OpenVMS, why is VSI
> > putting up roadblocks?
> Good question ...

Growing OpenVMS will mostly mean selling it to organisations who aren't currently
using OpenVMS, have no investment in custom OpenVMS software, have quite
possibly never even heard of OpenVMS or assume it went extinct long ago,
and are probably running their current workload on Linux. And Linux will
probably do the job fine for whatever new project they might consider OpenVMS
for. If they're paying for linux at all, they might be paying under $1k/year/server
(based on their online stores, Redhat Enterprise Server starts at US$349 and
Ubuntu Pro somewhere around $225-500).

What does OpenVMS bring to the table that makes it worth considering for
these organisations? Is it perhaps cheaper to license than RHEL? Is it easier to
develop for? Have some "killer app"? Is its clustering actually better than the
approaches typically taken on Linux to achieve the same tasks?

What *could* OpenVMS bring to the table to make it worth considering if
enough development effort was applied to the right projects?

On 11/1/2022 9:02 PM, David Goodwin wrote:
> Growing OpenVMS will mostly mean selling it to organisations who aren't currently
> using OpenVMS, have no investment in custom OpenVMS software, have quite
> possibly never even heard of OpenVMS or assume it went extinct long ago,
> and are probably running their current workload on Linux. And Linux will
> probably do the job fine for whatever new project they might consider OpenVMS
> for. If they're paying for linux at all, they might be paying under $1k/year/server
> (based on their online stores, Redhat Enterprise Server starts at US$349 and
> Ubuntu Pro somewhere around $225-500).

"starts" is correct. Add 24x7 support, smart management, HA and
resilient storage and it says 2847.

Which is way too much in some contexts and totally insignificant in
other contexts.

Obviously VSI wants to target the latter.

> What does OpenVMS bring to the table that makes it worth considering for
> these organisations? Is it perhaps cheaper to license than RHEL? Is it easier to
> develop for? Have some "killer app"? Is its clustering actually better than the
> approaches typically taken on Linux to achieve the same tasks?
>
> What *could* OpenVMS bring to the table to make it worth considering if
> enough development effort was applied to the right projects?

I think there is a fundamental flawed assumption on how most goods
are sold.

It is not like X is better than Y and Z so X get 100% of the market
while Y and Z gets 0%.

When products are different then some will choose X, some will
choose Y and some will choose Z.

I am sure that Redhat will sell way more licenses than VSI,
but VSI will be fine even with that.

Arne

On 2022-11-01, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> Why is VMS still around? Because in some instances, it runs the best tool for
> the job.
>

No. It's still around because there's an installed base.

There are still PDP-11 systems around for the same reason.

That doesn't mean you are going to put a PDP-11 system into a new site.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-11-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 11/1/2022 10:02 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> What is the argument you would make that is strong enough to persuade them
>> to go with VMS in spite of the problems involved with doing so ?
>>
>> Until you can answer that question, you are not going to be selling VMS
>> into brand new sites.
>
> No - I am thinking like someone that does not get his
> understanding of IT decision making from reading Dilbert.
>

In that case, you should be able to understand that people are not
interested in getting fired and losing their pension and salary for
trying something new that comes with major risks of its own without
a VERY good reason for trying that something new.

You correctly talk about only small numbers being required to try VMS
compared to the industry as a whole.

You have not yet talked about _why_ even those small numbers would be
persuaded to try VMS. IOW, you have not yet answered the question I asked
at the start of this thread.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-11-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 11/1/2022 3:48 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <tjrs45$erh$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> I am not aware of buying VMS licenses should not be easy. You
>>> contact VSI, you pay and you get your license. Anyone have had
>>> problems?
>>>
>>> Some may think the price is too high. But heck I also think that
>>> Ferrari's are too expensive as I can't afford one, but that is life.
>>
>> No, the issue is that most people can't get a non-expiring license.
>> CURRENT customers are not moving to x86 because of that; getting new
>> ones will be even more difficult.
>
> How many users representing how many licenses representing how
> many dollars?
>

The entire VMS userbase of France.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-11-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 11/1/2022 4:16 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <tjrtfc$10pb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> On 11/1/2022 3:48 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>> In article <tjrs45$erh$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>>>> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>> I am not aware of buying VMS licenses should not be easy. You
>>>>> contact VSI, you pay and you get your license. Anyone have had
>>>>> problems?
>>>>>
>>>>> Some may think the price is too high. But heck I also think that
>>>>> Ferrari's are too expensive as I can't afford one, but that is life.
>>>>
>>>> No, the issue is that most people can't get a non-expiring license.
>>>> CURRENT customers are not moving to x86 because of that; getting new
>>>> ones will be even more difficult.
>>>
>>> How many users representing how many licenses representing how
>>> many dollars?
>>
>> I don't know. Do you?
>
> No.
>
> But I am not the one claiming that it is a huge problem.
>

When you finally answer my question about why people would be persuaded
to try VMS in the first place, could you also answer why people would be
willing to put the future of their company at risk by buying a product
from a small vendor (VSI) that will stop working if that vendor goes bust ?

When answering that question, please keep in mind that there are mainstream
alternatives that will not stop working if the vendors supplying those
mainstream alternatives goes bust.

Thanks,

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-11-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 11/1/2022 3:49 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <tjrsnf$nbs$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> There is an outstanding problem with the expiring licenses
>>> that in some worst case scenarios could mean systems
>>> stopping with short notice.
>>
>> That seems to be the biggest problem for many (potential) customers.
>
> Based on?
>
> comp.os.vms is not exactly a CIO forum.
>
> My take is that it is more a problem for existing customers than
> for the new customers. Existing VMS customers think decades. A lot
> of new stuff is HW and OS end up in the dumpster after 5 years
> (applications may still live decades).
>

If VSI goes bust, what do they move that VMS application (with its
expiring OS licences) to in 5 years time ?

>>> But potential customers should talk to VSI about that.
>>> Businesses are usually listening when it is about revenue.
>>
>> Usually. Some have talked and not got a satisfactory answer.
>
> The french user group talked to VSI and did not convince VSI.
>
> But if more do so then maybe ...
>

You mean more than an entire European country worth of VMS users ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

In article <tjrk05$qlu5$3@dont-email.me>,
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>The best tool for the job is the overriding criteria.

And under what circumstances is VMS the right tool
for the job for a new installation? I can't think
of any.

- Dan C.

On 11/2/2022 1:11 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> In article <tjrk05$qlu5$3@dont-email.me>,
> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> The best tool for the job is the overriding criteria.
>
> And under what circumstances is VMS the right tool
> for the job for a new installation? I can't think
> of any.
>
> - Dan C.
>

You misunderstand. The "right tool" would be the apps that the user needs. OS
doesn't matter, unless it is required for the "right tool".

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 11/2/2022 9:34 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-11-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 11/1/2022 3:49 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <tjrsnf$nbs$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>>> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> There is an outstanding problem with the expiring licenses
>>>> that in some worst case scenarios could mean systems
>>>> stopping with short notice.
>>>
>>> That seems to be the biggest problem for many (potential) customers.
>>
>> Based on?
>>
>> comp.os.vms is not exactly a CIO forum.
>>
>> My take is that it is more a problem for existing customers than
>> for the new customers. Existing VMS customers think decades. A lot
>> of new stuff is HW and OS end up in the dumpster after 5 years
>> (applications may still live decades).
>>
>
> If VSI goes bust, what do they move that VMS application (with its
> expiring OS licences) to in 5 years time ?

Pure FUD ...

>>>> But potential customers should talk to VSI about that.
>>>> Businesses are usually listening when it is about revenue.
>>>
>>> Usually. Some have talked and not got a satisfactory answer.
>>
>> The french user group talked to VSI and did not convince VSI.
>>
>> But if more do so then maybe ...
>>
>
> You mean more than an entire European country worth of VMS users ?

I never did understand what the French wanted. I got the feeling that their
business model was not anywhere close to my business model.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 11/2/22 14:13, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 11/2/2022 9:34 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-11-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 11/1/2022 3:49 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>> In article <tjrsnf$nbs$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>>>> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>> There is an outstanding problem with the expiring licenses
>>>>> that in some worst case scenarios could mean systems
>>>>> stopping with short notice.
>>>>
>>>> That seems to be the biggest problem for many (potential) customers.
>>>
>>> Based on?
>>>
>>> comp.os.vms is not exactly a CIO forum.
>>>
>>> My take is that it is more a problem for existing customers than
>>> for the new customers. Existing VMS customers think decades. A lot
>>> of new stuff is HW and OS end up in the dumpster after 5 years
>>> (applications may still live decades).
>>>
>>
>> If VSI goes bust, what do they move that VMS application (with its
>> expiring OS licences) to in 5 years time ?
>
> Pure FUD ...
>
>>>>> But potential customers should talk to VSI about that.
>>>>> Businesses are usually listening when it is about revenue.
>>>>
>>>> Usually.  Some have talked and not got a satisfactory answer.
>>>
>>> The french user group talked to VSI and did not convince VSI.
>>>
>>> But if more do so then maybe ...
>>>
>>
>> You mean more than an entire European country worth of VMS users ?
>
> I never did understand what the French wanted.  I got the feeling that
> their business model was not anywhere close to my business model.
>
>

Dave,
I have a feeling that no one's business model is anywhere close
to yours. :-)

But then, prior to the advent of SAP, Banner, et al. I expect that
very few people's business model was like others.

bill

On 11/2/22 14:11, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 11/2/2022 1:11 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <tjrk05$qlu5$3@dont-email.me>,
>> Dave Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> The best tool for the job is the overriding criteria.
>>
>> And under what circumstances is VMS the right tool
>> for the job for a new installation?  I can't think
>> of any.
>>
>>     - Dan C.
>>
>
> You misunderstand.  The "right tool" would be the apps that the user
> needs.  OS doesn't matter, unless it is required for the "right tool".
>

You just threw gasoline on Dan's fire. What "tool", right or otherwise
is available on VMS and not on any of the more common systems?

bill

On 11/2/2022 3:10 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 11/2/22 14:11, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 11/2/2022 1:11 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
>>> In article <tjrk05$qlu5$3@dont-email.me>,
>>> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>> The best tool for the job is the overriding criteria.
>>>
>>> And under what circumstances is VMS the right tool
>>> for the job for a new installation? I can't think
>>> of any.
>>>
>>> - Dan C.
>>>
>>
>> You misunderstand. The "right tool" would be the apps that the user needs.
>> OS doesn't matter, unless it is required for the "right tool".
>>
>
> You just threw gasoline on Dan's fire. What "tool", right or otherwise
> is available on VMS and not on any of the more common systems?
>
> bill
>

If I can mention one, does that prove my point? Or do you need some higher number?

The Codis ERP package that small power equipment distributors all over North
America use runs on VMS, written mostly in Basic.

1) It isn't likely to be ported anywhere else.

2) It has no ready replacements.

That is a tool that is vital to it's users.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 11/2/22 16:25, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 11/2/2022 3:10 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 11/2/22 14:11, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 11/2/2022 1:11 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
>>>> In article <tjrk05$qlu5$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Dave Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>> The best tool for the job is the overriding criteria.
>>>>
>>>> And under what circumstances is VMS the right tool
>>>> for the job for a new installation?  I can't think
>>>> of any.
>>>>
>>>>     - Dan C.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You misunderstand.  The "right tool" would be the apps that the user
>>> needs.
>>> OS doesn't matter, unless it is required for the "right tool".
>>>
>>
>> You just threw gasoline on Dan's fire.  What "tool", right or otherwise
>> is available on VMS and not on any of the more common systems?
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> If I can mention one, does that prove my point?  Or do you need some
> higher number?
>
> The Codis ERP package that small power equipment distributors all over
> North America use runs on VMS, written mostly in Basic.
>
> 1) It isn't likely to be ported anywhere else.
>
> 2) It has no ready replacements.
>
> That is a tool that is vital to it's users.

Unless (as is quite common here) your use of ERP is different
from the industry use, there are dozens of alternative ERP
packages out there. And, before you say "but they are already
using this one" look back at the earlier part of some of these
threads where we talked about people dropping something they had
used for yeas in order to go with a more modern canned package.

bill

On 11/2/2022 9:34 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-11-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 11/1/2022 3:49 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <tjrsnf$nbs$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>>> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> There is an outstanding problem with the expiring licenses
>>>> that in some worst case scenarios could mean systems
>>>> stopping with short notice.
>>>
>>> That seems to be the biggest problem for many (potential) customers.
>>
>> Based on?
>>
>> comp.os.vms is not exactly a CIO forum.
>>
>> My take is that it is more a problem for existing customers than
>> for the new customers. Existing VMS customers think decades. A lot
>> of new stuff is HW and OS end up in the dumpster after 5 years
>> (applications may still live decades).
>
> If VSI goes bust, what do they move that VMS application (with its
> expiring OS licences) to in 5 years time ?

Something else obviously. Linux. Windows. AIX. FreeBSD. Maybe
even something that does not exist today.

Whenever you buy a product from a vendor there is a risk that the
vendor could go bankrupt or that the vendor could drop the
product.

The risk of VSI dropping VMS is extremely small given that
VMS is their only business.

The risk of bankruptcy is small based on what we have heard about
VSI finances, but it is probably bigger than the risk for IBM or MS.

Note that companies would want to migrate in these cases even with
for ever licenses.

>>>> But potential customers should talk to VSI about that.
>>>> Businesses are usually listening when it is about revenue.
>>>
>>> Usually. Some have talked and not got a satisfactory answer.
>>
>> The french user group talked to VSI and did not convince VSI.
>>
>> But if more do so then maybe ...
>
> You mean more than an entire European country worth of VMS users ?

Yes.

France contacted VSI. VSI did come up with some exceptions,
but kept the principle.

If VSI hear the same message from Sweden, UK, New York,
Boston, San Francisco and Singapore then they will start
seeing a pattern.

Arne

On 11/2/2022 9:13 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-11-01, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> Why is VMS still around? Because in some instances, it runs the best tool for
>> the job.
>
> No. It's still around because there's an installed base.
>
> There are still PDP-11 systems around for the same reason.
>
> That doesn't mean you are going to put a PDP-11 system into a new site.

Short term there is a difference and there are sort of
3 levels:
* will keep existing system and will use for new systems
* will not use for new systems because better alternatives exist, but
will not migrate existing systems because migration cost and risks
outweigh the benefits
* will migrate existing systems

And usually a lot fall in the middle category.

But long term the middle category shrinks. For whatever
reason (like HW becoming unavailable), then something has
to change and then the migration happens.

Arne

On 11/2/2022 9:24 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-11-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 11/1/2022 3:48 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <tjrs45$erh$1@gioia.aioe.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>>> <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> I am not aware of buying VMS licenses should not be easy. You
>>>> contact VSI, you pay and you get your license. Anyone have had
>>>> problems?
>>>>
>>>> Some may think the price is too high. But heck I also think that
>>>> Ferrari's are too expensive as I can't afford one, but that is life.
>>>
>>> No, the issue is that most people can't get a non-expiring license.
>>> CURRENT customers are not moving to x86 because of that; getting new
>>> ones will be even more difficult.
>>
>> How many users representing how many licenses representing how
>> many dollars?
>
> The entire VMS userbase of France.

I don't think that the entire userbase of France said
that they will not move to x84-64 due to the license
issue.

What was posted here at c.o.v. at some point from the french was:

<quote>
We have received a lot of negative feedback
from users about this new way of selling VMS which is very unbalanced,
to the point that some people are talking about leaving VMS due to these
conditions. We believe that VSI must listen to its installed base and
find more satisfactory answers, otherwise the effect will be the
opposite of the one desired.
....
The following points are the most
frequently reported by the users who responded: ... Loss of confidence
in VSI
due to the change in licensing (mandatory subscription), ...
</quote>

Which is a serious issue brought up in a serious manner
by serious people.

But not that the entire userbase of France said
that they will not move to x84-64 due to the license
issue.

Arne

On 11/2/2022 6:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 11/2/22 16:25, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 11/2/2022 3:10 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 11/2/22 14:11, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 11/2/2022 1:11 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
>>>>> In article <tjrk05$qlu5$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>> The best tool for the job is the overriding criteria.
>>>>>
>>>>> And under what circumstances is VMS the right tool
>>>>> for the job for a new installation? I can't think
>>>>> of any.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Dan C.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You misunderstand. The "right tool" would be the apps that the user needs.
>>>> OS doesn't matter, unless it is required for the "right tool".
>>>>
>>>
>>> You just threw gasoline on Dan's fire. What "tool", right or otherwise
>>> is available on VMS and not on any of the more common systems?
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>
>> If I can mention one, does that prove my point? Or do you need some higher
>> number?
>>
>> The Codis ERP package that small power equipment distributors all over North
>> America use runs on VMS, written mostly in Basic.
>>
>> 1) It isn't likely to be ported anywhere else.
>>
>> 2) It has no ready replacements.
>>
>> That is a tool that is vital to it's users.
>
> Unless (as is quite common here) your use of ERP is different
> from the industry use, there are dozens of alternative ERP
> packages out there. And, before you say "but they are already
> using this one" look back at the earlier part of some of these
> threads where we talked about people dropping something they had
> used for yeas in order to go with a more modern canned package.

Software that solves specific issues for a particular vertical market many times
will not exist in other software packages. The list can be rather long. Just a
few examples:

Handling of cores
Superscession of part numbers

The lack of either of those examples is a total show stopper.

This is applications that have over 40 years of specific development for this
particular vertical market. Some obsolete. Some quite recent.

The customers have looked hard for those "alternate ERP packages". The search
has failed.

One customer is trying a cloud solution. Looks like they are on course for a
future crater.

You can claim all you want about alternatives. Doesn't mean any exist.

The most common response from potential new vendors is "we can't do that".

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2022-11-02, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> Software that solves specific issues for a particular vertical market many times
> will not exist in other software packages. The list can be rather long. Just a
> few examples:
>
> Handling of cores
> Superscession of part numbers
>
> The lack of either of those examples is a total show stopper.
>
> This is applications that have over 40 years of specific development for this
> particular vertical market. Some obsolete. Some quite recent.
>
> The customers have looked hard for those "alternate ERP packages". The search
> has failed.
>
> One customer is trying a cloud solution. Looks like they are on course for a
> future crater.
>
> You can claim all you want about alternatives. Doesn't mean any exist.
>
> The most common response from potential new vendors is "we can't do that".
>

What is it precisely about supersessions that new vendors can't do ?

Supersession support should be a standard feature when handling parts.

What is different is how much supersession support is automated versus
a parts manager having to fixup manually the more complicated cases.

For example, in your own system, how do you handle the merging of multiple
part numbers into one new combined part number ?

How do you handle the reverse problem of splitting a bag of components
sold as one part number into their own new part numbers ?

How do you handle the accounting implications of the above ?

Do you allow supersessions across vendors, for example from a miscellaneous
part number to a vendor part number ?

What do you do about previous sales history on a part number ? Do you change
the part number on the history records to the new part number or do you link
them together in some other way so that you don't lose the history when it
comes to the system recommending stock orders based on previous sales history ?

How do you handle supersession loops during part number lookup ? Do you
ignore the whole supersession chain or do you return the part number that
was found immediately prior to the supersession loop being detected ?

Simon.

PS: Yes, I have done work on this in the past. Why do you ask ? :-) :-)

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 11/3/2022 9:20 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-11-02, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Software that solves specific issues for a particular vertical market many times
>> will not exist in other software packages. The list can be rather long. Just a
>> few examples:
>>
>> Handling of cores
>> Superscession of part numbers
>>
>> The lack of either of those examples is a total show stopper.
>>
>> This is applications that have over 40 years of specific development for this
>> particular vertical market. Some obsolete. Some quite recent.
>>
>> The customers have looked hard for those "alternate ERP packages". The search
>> has failed.
>>
>> One customer is trying a cloud solution. Looks like they are on course for a
>> future crater.
>>
>> You can claim all you want about alternatives. Doesn't mean any exist.
>>
>> The most common response from potential new vendors is "we can't do that".
>>
>
> What is it precisely about supersessions that new vendors can't do ?

The biggest issue with potential new vendors is that they seem to have never
heard of the concept, and don't want to hear about it.

Nothing hard there, just good design and implementation.

> Supersession support should be a standard feature when handling parts.

Not "should", try "has to be".

> What is different is how much supersession support is automated versus
> a parts manager having to fixup manually the more complicated cases.
>
> For example, in your own system, how do you handle the merging of multiple
> part numbers into one new combined part number ?

Wrong design, try having all part numbers reference each other. It's interesting.

> How do you handle the reverse problem of splitting a bag of components
> sold as one part number into their own new part numbers ?

Well, yeah ...

> How do you handle the accounting implications of the above ?

Not sure, I wasn't part of that.

> Do you allow supersessions across vendors, for example from a miscellaneous
> part number to a vendor part number ?

Of course ...

> What do you do about previous sales history on a part number ? Do you change
> the part number on the history records to the new part number or do you link
> them together in some other way so that you don't lose the history when it
> comes to the system recommending stock orders based on previous sales history ?

Wasn't part of that.

> How do you handle supersession loops during part number lookup ? Do you
> ignore the whole supersession chain or do you return the part number that
> was found immediately prior to the supersession loop being detected ?

Yes, that's the key. Processing the loops. Invoice shows original part number
ordered, and the supplied part number.

> PS: Yes, I have done work on this in the past. Why do you ask ? :-) :-)

Then perhaps you understand how important this feature would be to those who
need it, and how any system that doesn't have it will not do the required job.

This square peg just won't fit the round hole, not matter how much some declare
"a standard package should do the job". It is not the only requirement.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

In article <tjubrr$17lrh$1@dont-email.me>,
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>On 11/2/2022 1:11 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <tjrk05$qlu5$3@dont-email.me>,
>> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> The best tool for the job is the overriding criteria.
>>
>> And under what circumstances is VMS the right tool
>> for the job for a new installation? I can't think
>> of any.
>
>You misunderstand.

Maybe, or did you ignore the question?

>The "right tool" would be the apps that the user needs.

Ok. So under what circumstances are "the apps" that
the user needs for a new installation available under
VMS and nothing else?

>OS doesn't matter, unless it is required for the "right tool".

Bluntly, I don't believe you. There's a lot of OS
dependency baked into IT management. For example,
how do we do backups for bare-metal DR?

- Dan C.

In article <tjujnk$18a1d$1@dont-email.me>,
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>On 11/2/2022 3:10 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 11/2/22 14:11, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 11/2/2022 1:11 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
>>>> In article <tjrk05$qlu5$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>> The best tool for the job is the overriding criteria.
>>>>
>>>> And under what circumstances is VMS the right tool
>>>> for the job for a new installation? I can't think
>>>> of any.
>>>
>>> You misunderstand. The "right tool" would be the apps that the user needs.
>>> OS doesn't matter, unless it is required for the "right tool".
>>
>> You just threw gasoline on Dan's fire. What "tool", right or otherwise
>> is available on VMS and not on any of the more common systems?
>
>If I can mention one, does that prove my point? Or do you need some higher number?
>
>The Codis ERP package that small power equipment distributors all over North
>America use runs on VMS, written mostly in Basic.
>
>1) It isn't likely to be ported anywhere else.
>
>2) It has no ready replacements.
>
>That is a tool that is vital to it's users.

Note the question was _for a new installation_.

I can't imagine many new installations are reaching
for a VMS-only ERP package written in Basic.

- Dan C.

In article <tjuc0m$17lrh$2@dont-email.me>,
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>[snip]
>> If VSI goes bust, what do they move that VMS application (with its
>> expiring OS licences) to in 5 years time ?
>
>Pure FUD ...

You can say that all you like, but it _is_ a legitimate
question, and it's a hard one. Why would someone bet a
business process on something like that that's far from
certain?

The bottom line is that if you aren't willing to engage
with legitimate and hard questions like this, you're not
serious about seeing VMS succeed. Period.

- Dan C.