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computers / news.admin.hierarchies / Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?

SubjectAuthor
* Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Tristan Miller
|+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matthew Vernon
||+- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Tristan Miller
||+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|||`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Richard Kettlewell
||| +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||| |`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Richard Kettlewell
||| | `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||| |  `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Aioe
||| |   +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||| |   `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||| `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|||  `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|||   `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Adam H. Kerman
|||    `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Richard Kettlewell
|||+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||||`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matthew Vernon
|||| +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Adam H. Kerman
|||| |`- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|||| `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||||  `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|||`- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?D. Stussy
|| `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matija Nalis
|`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Adam H. Kerman
| `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|  +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Adam H. Kerman
|  +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Thomas Hochstein
|  `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|   +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Jason Evans
|   +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matthew Vernon
|   |`- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|   `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|    +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|    |`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matthew Vernon
|    | `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|    `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|     +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|     |`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Franck
|     | +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|     | `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|     |  `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Franck
|     `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|      `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
`- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?D. Stussy

Pages:12
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 10:45 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.2a01cb0800a7750038b041a9f7e48266.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 12:45:46 +0200
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Message-ID: <rls3cq$re9$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Hi Russ,
The most likely approach will be to generate a new key and issue control
messages with both the old and new keys for some (extended) transition
period.

As a quick update on this, I've been working on wrangling PGP::Sign into
shape, since all the rest of my machinery depends on it.  That's mostly
done, although I have to sort out some more test failures.  It now
supports using GnuPG v2 to create and validate signatures.

Once I get the rest of the test issues sorted out, the next step is to
create a new test key for the Big Eight and start dual-issuing control
messages.  I'll do that for a while and let people test (and find any
problems with the key that might require recreating it) before officially
changing the key.

We plan on doing a similar move for the PGP key used to sign control messages for the fr.* hierarchy.  Maybe we could synch our efforts and choose a similar algorithm for the Big-Eight and fr.* hierarchies?

An EdDSA algorithm like ed25519 [RFC8032]?
Debian has been shipped with an OpenSSH version implementing ed25519 since Jessie (2015).  Jessie was also the last version to come with GnuPG 1.4; Strech has 2.1.

So it seems to be a good choice for the transition between old and new keys for interoperability.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Je suis adroit de la main gauche et je suis gauche de la main
   droite. » (Raymond Devos)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 12:53 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 13:53:20 +0100
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Message-ID: <rook05$lu5$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Hi all,

The most likely approach will be to generate a new key and issue control
messages with both the old and new keys for some (extended) transition
period.
[...]
We plan on doing a similar move for the PGP key used to sign control messages for the fr.* hierarchy.  Maybe we could synch our efforts and choose a similar algorithm for the Big-Eight and fr.* hierarchies?

An EdDSA algorithm like ed25519 [RFC8032]?
Debian has been shipped with an OpenSSH version implementing ed25519 since Jessie (2015).  Jessie was also the last version to come with GnuPG 1.4; Strech has 2.1.

We'll start soon the experiment for the fr.* hierarchy.
Probably with an ed25519 key (which has a fixed 256-bit size).
I read that difficulty to breaking it is similar to a ~3072-bit RSA key.

Do you think it is better to change the user ID of the key or re-use the one of the previous old key?
I would tend to re-use the previous user ID.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – À la plage ? Mais il pleut !
   – Pas du tout ! Dans le midi de la Gaule, il pleut. Ici, c'est tout
     juste un peu humide. Vivifiant. Pas vrai, Astérix ?
   – Ce matin, ça devient de plus en plus vivifiant ! » (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Matthew Vernon
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A header line that ends up very out of date
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:53 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.etla.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: matt...@debian.org (Matthew Vernon)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:53:49 +0000
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Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

We'll start soon the experiment for the fr.* hierarchy.
Probably with an ed25519 key (which has a fixed 256-bit size).
I read that difficulty to breaking it is similar to a ~3072-bit RSA key.

My concern here is that we have to use an old gpgv (so that it
understand the old keys) to verify control messages at the moment, and
it won't understand very modern keys. Which is going to make migration a
pain in a number of ways (e.g. my current ancient tooling for signing
control messages uses gpg1 because modern gpg refuses to use the old
uk.* key - so if I make a new key I have to use a new toolchain with
that).

Do you think it is better to change the user ID of the key or re-use
the one of the previous old key?
I would tend to re-use the previous user ID.

I would definitely favour using the old key ID - e.g. I have control.ctl
set to verify control@usenet-fr.news.eu.org for fr.* so (assuming
previous questions about toolchain can be finessed) if your new key has
the same ID I won't have to change control.ctl at all.

Matthew

--
 `O'-----0     `O'---.       `O'---.       `O'---.
   \___| |       \___|0-/      \___|/        \___|
    |  | /\       |  |  \       |  |\         |  |
The Dangers of modern veterinary life


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 11:21 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.2a01cb0800a77500d0e37b56ec588ba7.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:21:31 +0100
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Message-ID: <rotnbr$kf9$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Hi Matthew,

We'll start soon the experiment for the fr.* hierarchy.
Probably with an ed25519 key (which has a fixed 256-bit size).
I read that difficulty to breaking it is similar to a ~3072-bit RSA key.

My concern here is that we have to use an old gpgv (so that it
understand the old keys) to verify control messages at the moment, and
it won't understand very modern keys. Which is going to make migration a
pain in a number of ways (e.g. my current ancient tooling for signing
control messages uses gpg1 because modern gpg refuses to use the old
uk.* key - so if I make a new key I have to use a new toolchain with
that).

The plan is to send control articles in double, during a few years.
One signed with the old key (supported by gpgv1 or equivalent, and earlier versions of gpgv2), and another one signed with a modern key (supported by modern gpgv2).

This way, news servers can cope with hierarchy updates, and can migrate from gpgv1 to gpgv2 when they want to verify control messages.  A smooth transition.
Wouldn't it suit you needs? (gpgv1 / gpgv2)


As for tooling for signing control messages, yes, both toolchains have to be maintained by hierarchy administrators.  We're not plenty...




Do you think it is better to change the user ID of the key or re-use
the one of the previous old key?
I would tend to re-use the previous user ID.

I would definitely favour using the old key ID - e.g. I have control.ctl
set to verify control@usenet-fr.news.eu.org for fr.* so (assuming
previous questions about toolchain can be finessed) if your new key has
the same ID I won't have to change control.ctl at all.

Yes, exactly, no changes are needed to control.ctl when re-using the user ID.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Ma parole… Vous êtes soûls ! Heu ! Sourds… » (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:24 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:24:31 -0800
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87o8jxgidc.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

We plan on doing a similar move for the PGP key used to sign control
messages for the fr.* hierarchy.  Maybe we could synch our efforts and
choose a similar algorithm for the Big-Eight and fr.* hierarchies?

An EdDSA algorithm like ed25519 [RFC8032]?  Debian has been shipped with
an OpenSSH version implementing ed25519 since Jessie (2015).  Jessie was
also the last version to come with GnuPG 1.4; Strech has 2.1.

I'm not currently seeing much point in using elliptic curve algorithms
instead of RSA.  They're both vulnerable to quantum cryptography, so
there's not much in the way of future-proofing, and the security seems to
be roughly on par.  I was planning on generating a 4096-bit RSA key
because everything understands it and has for eons, and I'm not sure how
old of software people might be running.

(4096 is probably overkill and 3072 would be fine.)

The downside of RSA compared to ed25519 is that the signature is larger
and (particularly for 4096-bit keys) slower to generate and verify, but
given the miniscule traffic of Usenet control messages, I don't think
there's much reason to care.

That said, maybe I'm missing something?

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/

          Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
     https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html explains why.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 22:16 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.2a01cb0800a77500f13147d364e12c5b.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:16:14 +0100
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
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Hi Russ,
An EdDSA algorithm like ed25519 [RFC8032]?  Debian has been shipped with
an OpenSSH version implementing ed25519 since Jessie (2015). >
I'm not currently seeing much point in using elliptic curve algorithms
instead of RSA.  They're both vulnerable to quantum cryptography, so
there's not much in the way of future-proofing, and the security seems to
be roughly on par.  I was planning on generating a 4096-bit RSA key
because everything understands it and has for eons, and I'm not sure how
old of software people might be running.

(4096 is probably overkill and 3072 would be fine.)

A 4096-bit RSA key will last longer; 3072-bit RSA keys will probably be considered weak within ten years.  Same thing for ed25519 (256 bits) anyway...  Unless using 512-bit elliptic curves.


The downside of RSA compared to ed25519 is that the signature is larger
and (particularly for 4096-bit keys) slower to generate and verify, but
given the miniscule traffic of Usenet control messages, I don't think
there's much reason to care.

Sure!

The question is probably more important for pgpmoose and NoCeM.  Yet, traffic is not that high either.

For compatibility reasons in 2020, using widespread RSA algorithm is probably the best.  So 3072 or 4096-bit is the question.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Je suis capable du meilleur comme du pire, mais pour le pire, c'est
   moi le meilleur. » (Coluche)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Franck
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: Somewhere in France.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:57 UTC
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Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
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Le 16/11/2020 à 23:16, Julien ÉLIE a écrit :

For compatibility reasons in 2020, using widespread RSA algorithm is probably the best.  So 3072 or 4096-bit is the question.

I delayed the implementation for processing control messages with PGP, hoping that the choice would be made for RSA...

So +1 for RSA :-)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 21:49 UTC
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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 22:49:13 +0100
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Hi Franck,

I delayed the implementation for processing control messages with PGP, hoping that the choice would be made for RSA...

So +1 for RSA :-)

There is no obligation for a hierarchy administrator to choose this algorithm, so a recent implementation should not implement only this one I believe...


Incidentally, maybe a note about a preference for RSA keys should be added to https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/usenet-hier.html (Usenet Hierarchy Administration FAQ)?
Its current wording is a bit confusing, speaking about old RSA implementation of PGP 2.x instead of modern RSA implementations.


"Most Usenet news sites that honor control messages are set up to verify messages signed with an algorithm called RSA, which was the algorithm used by the original PGP implementation. Unfortunately, this is now fairly obsolete. Current PGP implementations use a newer, more secure algorithm for generating signatures (although the additional security is probably overkill for Usenet control messages, at least for right now). While this doesn't pose a problem for signing messages (current PGP implementations can still use old RSA keys to sign things), it does cause problems if you're starting fresh, since the keys generated by current implementations will not work with old versions of PGP.

What all this means is that you have a few hard choices when it comes to choosing a PGP implementation and generating your initial key pair. You can use GnuPG http://www.gnupg.org/ which is probably the best available PGP implementation, and not bother with a RSA key at all."

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Je n'aime pas faire du char-stop ! » (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 21:52 UTC
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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 22:52:35 +0100
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Hi Russ,
We plan on doing a similar move for the PGP key used to sign control
messages for the fr.* hierarchy.  Maybe we could synch our efforts and
choose a similar algorithm for the Big-Eight and fr.* hierarchies?

An EdDSA algorithm like ed25519 [RFC8032]?  Debian has been shipped with
an OpenSSH version implementing ed25519 since Jessie (2015).  Jessie was
also the last version to come with GnuPG 1.4; Strech has 2.1.

I'm not currently seeing much point in using elliptic curve algorithms
instead of RSA.

 From GnuPG FAQ:
   https://www.gnupg.org/faq/gnupg-faq.html

%%%
Will GnuPG ever support RSA-3072 or RSA-4096 by default?

Probably not.  The future is elliptical-curve cryptography, which will bring a level of safety comparable to RSA-16384.  Every minute we spend arguing about whether we should change the defaults to RSA-3072 or more is one minute the shift to ECC is delayed.
Frankly, we think ECC is a really good idea and we’d like to see it deployed as soon as humanly possible.
%%%

:)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – Le bureau des renseignements ?
   – Sais pas. Adressez-vous aux renseignements, ils vous
     renseigneront. » (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: The Eyrie
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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 15:02:01 -0800
Organization: The Eyrie
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Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

From GnuPG FAQ:
  https://www.gnupg.org/faq/gnupg-faq.html

%%%
Will GnuPG ever support RSA-3072 or RSA-4096 by default?

Probably not.  The future is elliptical-curve cryptography, which will
bring a level of safety comparable to RSA-16384.  Every minute we spend
arguing about whether we should change the defaults to RSA-3072 or more is
one minute the shift to ECC is delayed.
Frankly, we think ECC is a really good idea and we’d like to see it
deployed as soon as humanly possible.
%%%

They subsequently changed the default to 3072-bit RSA.

I admit that I am still feeling burned about choosing a DSA/El Gamal key
way back in the day because of similar sorts of arguments that it was the
future, when I could have created an RSA key, only to have it be
discarded, now considered not sufficiently secure, and (longer) RSA keys
continue to be the standard.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/

          Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
     https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html explains why.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:55 UTC
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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:55:06 +0100
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Hi Richard,

I’d suggest getting started quickly on dual-running for a single
hierarchy, to discover if there are any problems with it, what the
upgrade process looks like (given the end goal of trusting only the new
key), etc.

Well, then let's go for the international French-speaking hierarchy (fr.*).  Starting from January 2021, we'll be issuing control messages signed with a brand new PGP key.
No dual-running, unfortunately, because we no longer have the previous key (but if by any chance it is found later, I'll of course be happy to also send control articles signed with it).


As for the upgrade process:

% su news
% wget http://www.usenet-fr.net/pgp-fr-2020.txt
% gpg --import pgp-fr-2020.txt

works fine :-)
At least, with INN.

Both the old and the new key can co-exist.  I've tested to verify an old control article, and a new one with the new key; both of them are correctly recognized.

It's now up to news administrators to take a bit of their time to do that...

--
Julien ÉLIE

« J'oubliais qu'Assurancetourix a une nouvelle corde à sa harpe ! »
   (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:00 UTC
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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 21:00:08 +0100
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Hi Franck,

For compatibility reasons in 2020, using widespread RSA algorithm is probably the best.  So 3072 or 4096-bit is the question.

I delayed the implementation for processing control messages with PGP, hoping that the choice would be made for RSA...

So +1 for RSA :-)

Now that we know that the previous private key for fr.* has been lost, it is no longer a question...  We'll go for RSA because we cannot assume every news server is no older than 5 years old!
Modern algorithms cannot be chosen for us; otherwise "old" news servers would not been able to update their key ring without also updating GnuPG or like.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« J'oubliais qu'Assurancetourix a une nouvelle corde à sa harpe ! »
   (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Franck
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: Guest of ProXad - France
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Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
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Le 08/12/2020 à 21:00, Julien ÉLIE a écrit :

Hi Julien,

Now that we know that the previous private key for fr.* has been lost, it is no longer a question...  We'll go for RSA because we cannot assume every news server is no older than 5 years old!
Modern algorithms cannot be chosen for us; otherwise "old" news servers would not been able to update their key ring without also updating GnuPG or like.

I'll take a look at it as soon as I have some free time :-)



Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Matthew Vernon
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A header line that ends up very out of date
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From: matt...@debian.org (Matthew Vernon)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:32:18 +0000
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Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

% wget http://www.usenet-fr.net/pgp-fr-2020.txt

Not https? :(

Matthew

--
 `O'-----0     `O'---.       `O'---.       `O'---.
   \___| |       \___|0-/      \___|/        \___|
    |  | /\       |  |  \       |  |\         |  |
The Dangers of modern veterinary life


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Adam H. Kerman
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 17:48 UTC
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From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 17:48:46 -0000 (UTC)
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Matthew Vernon <matthew@debian.org> wrote:
Julien ELIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

% wget http://www.usenet-fr.net/pgp-fr-2020.txt

Not https? :(

As you're not logging on, why would you care? There is no security
implication.

A friend of mine explained why Google pushed for https, when I was,
well, intimidated into using https for each of my domains. My Web pages
are ugly text-only informational pages. There's nothing to log in for.

ISPs had begun substituting advertising from their own clients for that
of Google's advertising clients. https on non-interactive Web sites is
an attempt to thwart that.

There are no security implications for either the Webmaster nor user at
issue here.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 17:59 UTC
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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:59:14 -0800
Organization: The Eyrie
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References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<87y2pl4s3n.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
<rqolmv$c08$1@news.trigofacile.com> <np3r1nsuz59.fsf@sanger.ac.uk>
<rr88hu$u7o$2@dont-email.me>
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"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:
Matthew Vernon <matthew@debian.org> wrote:
Julien ELIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

% wget http://www.usenet-fr.net/pgp-fr-2020.txt

Not https? :(

As you're not logging on, why would you care? There is no security
implication.

If the network between the request and www.usenet-fr.net is insecure in
some way (DNS, network interception, etc.), an adversary can substitute
their own key in the response and then issue control messages with the
adversary's key that would be effective for fr.* at that site.

I don't think anyone is likely to bother to go to this effort for Usenet
control messages, but it does weaken the chain of trust for the key that
you retrieve from that web request to not use TLS.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/

          Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
     https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html explains why.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:41 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.2a01cb0800a77500a88f5c173109fef2.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 19:41:59 +0100
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Message-ID: <rrb01t$hqk$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk> <87y2pl4s3n.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
<rqolmv$c08$1@news.trigofacile.com> <np3r1nsuz59.fsf@sanger.ac.uk>
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Hi Matthew,
% wget http://www.usenet-fr.net/pgp-fr-2020.txt

Not https? :(

I think it's on the webmaster's to-do list.  Thanks to recall it!

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Il est idiot de monter une côte à bicyclette quand il suffit de se
   retourner pour la descendre. »


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 16:14 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.2a01cb0800a77500ad2075e5f73ffb98.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 17:14:52 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <rrg062$pq$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk> <87y2pl4s3n.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
<rqolmv$c08$1@news.trigofacile.com> <np3r1nsuz59.fsf@sanger.ac.uk>
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Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1
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Content-Language: fr
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Hi all,

% wget http://www.usenet-fr.net/pgp-fr-2020.txt

Not https? :(

I think it's on the webmaster's to-do list.  Thanks to recall it!

Done by the webmaster.
Thanks for having pointed out the issue!

   => https://www.usenet-fr.net/pgp-fr-2020.txt

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Mais écoutez ce qu'on vous dit, au lieu de taper comme un sourd ! »
   (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 21:04 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.2a01cb0800a775002ce4292d4f4fdf2f.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 22:04:27 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <s0enl0$gbp$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk> <87y2pl4s3n.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
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Hi Richard, Matthew & all,

My uk.* Control hat is worried about this too - I could make a new key
and (probably!) adjust the perl lashup that runs uk.* to sign with both
keys, but the real problem is getting "enough" admins to start trusting
the new key (and not the old one any more).

I’d suggest getting started quickly on dual-running for a single
hierarchy, to discover if there are any problems with it, what the
upgrade process looks like (given the end goal of trusting only the new
key), etc.

Last month, we created 2 newsgroups on the fr.* hierarchy with the new 4096-bit RSA key.  We did not find any problem.
I would have thought adoption of the new PGP key would have taken far more time.  It appears that major news servers used by active posters to fr.* quickly upgraded the key and created both fr.misc.automobile.electrique and fr.misc.actualite.covid19.

As the previous PGP key is no longer usable, we do not dual-send control articles.  Changing the key on news server is the only option for fr.* and anyway it is a good thing because actively maintained news server, as often as not, couldn't process the previous key any longer (they had a too recent GnuPG version for that).

I think you would be interested in this feedback.

Next upgrade in 2035 :-)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Les amis de la vérité sont ceux qui la cherchent, et non ceux qui se
   vantent de l'avoir trouvée. » (Condorcet)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:54 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.176-143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:54:42 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <si9p9n$588$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk> <87lflm5ugx.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
<875zcp66uk.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> <ra5m5j$qtm$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<87sgft4deq.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> <ra820p$1gj$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Hi Paolo,

In May 2020:
@Paolo, it seems that the PGP key of aioe.* has expired

yes, i know.
[...]

I'm currently migrating my news server to a VPS and reinstalling all the associated tooling.
It is with that sort of migration that I understand well how long it may be for new users to set up a whole news server from scratch!
Impressive to see all the stuff needed :-)


Well, I'm writing here because I've just seen that the NoCeM PGP key has been renewed for Aioe.org:

pub   rsa4096 2021-07-20 [SC] [expire : 2024-07-19]
       8A3C3C2515D0775C85CE765F8D4BD91D2643B3A6
uid          [ inconnue] Aioe.org (Key for NoCEM bags) <nocem@aioe.org>
sub   rsa4096 2021-07-20 [E] [expire : 2024-07-19]

Well, still expiring in 3 years but good to see that the old one, long expired since 2010 is no longer in use.

I may have missed the announcement of the change though...  Was it said somewhere?  (I may not be the only one in that case...)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« On appelle ça une insula. C'est une maison où les gens habitent les
   uns au-dessus des autres… » (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: D. Stussy
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 02:00 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: rocksolid2!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.snarked.org!not-for-mail
From: spa...@spam.org (D. Stussy)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:00:36 -0700
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What key servers should one periodically check for revisions?  The "sks-servers.net" domain stopped service.  "pgp.mit.edu" doesn't seem to have Usenet keys.

If there isn't one, should we start one?

Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Matija Nalis
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Followup: news.admin.hierarchies
Organization: CARNet, Croatia
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:50 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: rocksolid2!news.neodome.net!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!newsfeed.CARNet.hr!.POSTED.2001:470:26:148:5f4b:644b:306e:dd53!not-for-mail
From: mnalis-n...@voyager.hr (Matija Nalis)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Followup-To: news.admin.hierarchies
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:50:23 +0200
Organization: CARNet, Croatia
Sender: mnalis@public.hr
Message-ID: <slrnsmlt5v.4us.mnalis-news@leia.home.lan>
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<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
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["Followup-To:" header set to news.admin.hierarchies.]
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:00:36 -0700, D. Stussy <spam@spam.org> wrote:
What key servers should one periodically check for revisions?  The "sks-servers.net" domain stopped service.  "pgp.mit.edu" doesn't
seem to have Usenet keys.

If there isn't one, should we start one?

Maybe https://keys.openpgp.org/ ?

--
Opinions above are GNU-copylefted.


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