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computers / comp.misc / Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

SubjectAuthor
* France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceHere is the News
+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceTim+
|`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
| `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencebadgolferman
|  |+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  ||`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  || `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |`- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  ||`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceTim+
|  || `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  ||  `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  | +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  | `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  |  |+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  ||+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  || +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  |  || |`- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  || +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  || `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  |`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  | +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  | `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  |  |  `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  |   `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  |  +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  |+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  ||`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  || `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceChris
|  |  ||  +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  ||  `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||   +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  ||   |`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||   | +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceBob Campbell
|  |  ||   | +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  ||   | |+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||   | |+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  ||   | |`- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  ||   | `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  ||   `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceChris
|  |  ||    `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  |  |`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  | +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  | +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceIlya Kraskov
|  |  | |+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceBob Campbell
|  |  | ||`- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  | |+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  | |+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  |  | |`- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  | `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  |  `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceChris
|  |  |   `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  |    +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  |    |+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  |    ||`- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  |    |`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceFrank Slootweg
|  |  |    | +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  |  |    | `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  |    `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceChris
|  |  |     `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  |      `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceChris
|  |  |       `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceErholt Rhein
|  |  |+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceMichael
|  |  || +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  || +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  |  || |`- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  || `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||  `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceMichael
|  |  ||   +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||   |+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceMichael
|  |  ||   ||+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||   ||+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  ||   ||`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceBob Campbell
|  |  ||   || `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceMichael
|  |  ||   ||  +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceAlan
|  |  ||   ||  `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceBob Campbell
|  |  ||   |`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  ||   | `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||   |  `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceMichael
|  |  ||   |   `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  ||   `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceNewyana2
|  |  ||    +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  ||    |+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceFrank Slootweg
|  |  ||    ||+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceNewyana2
|  |  ||    |||`- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  ||    ||`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  ||    || `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceFrank Slootweg
|  |  ||    |`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  ||    | `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescencenospam
|  |  ||    |  +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  |  ||    |  `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  ||    |   `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceCarlos E.R.
|  |  ||    +* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceMichael
|  |  ||    +- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceMichael
|  |  ||    `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJoerg Lorenz
|  |  |`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceBob Campbell
|  |  `- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJolly Roger
|  `* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceChris
+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceNewyana2
+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceTim+
+- Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceJulio Di Egidio
+* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceFrank
`* Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned ObsolescenceOregonian Haruspex

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Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

<020720230603326743%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.news.internet.discuss,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2023 06:03:32 -0400
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 by: nospam - Sun, 2 Jul 2023 10:03 UTC

In article <u7qqnj$37cgh$1@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid>
wrote:

> [1] Evidence: The long lines of folks sitting outside Apple stores
> for every new product release -- for which Google can find you ample
> news coverage. All of those fanboi's that sit for days waiting for
> release day are there to buy whatever it is that is the new thing for
> that release day.

that's called high demand.

many products also have high demand, including from samsung, microsoft
and tesla. many events also have high demand, notably concerts and
sporting events.

samsung:
<https://news.samsung.com/global/photo-galaxy-s7-and-s7-edge-hit-the-she
lves-around-the-world>

<https://www.thebeijinger.com/sites/default/files/styles/800_width/publi
c/sltjpg.jpg>

windows 95 (which was at midnight, not normal business hours):
<https://i.imgur.com/4Ng1ELA.jpg>
<https://i.insider.com/55db8886dd0895ea428b4622>

xbox:
<https://www.geekwire.com/2014/xbox-one-launches-long-lines-china-monume
ntal-day-microsoft-challenges-ahead/>

microsoft stores:
<https://www.cnet.com/a/img/resize/91e7d1fd19ccbd588f4581006db0718b066f7
dd9/hub/2015/10/28/796e63dd-6ea5-45b5-a35f-e4dd9734fc51/microsoft-flagsh
ip-nyc-store-opening-09.jpg?auto=webp&fit=crop&height=675&width=1200>

<https://www.cnet.com/a/img/resize/5e67935ca8b3bc8003450ab7a13944f4959f0
52d/hub/2012/08/23/adcde953-f0e7-11e2-8c7c-d4ae52e62bcc/microsoft-store-
opening-boston-2.jpg?auto=webp&width=1200>
<https://www.cnet.com/a/img/resize/023e2a267e794ae8aa9c70b911f2193d6b09a
56c/hub/2012/08/23/adaf8e5a-f0e7-11e2-8c7c-d4ae52e62bcc/microsoft-store-
opening-boston-5.jpg?auto=webp&width=1200>

<https://downtownbellevue.com/2010/11/19/bellevue-square-microsoft-store-
concludes-successful-grand-opening-day/>

tesla:
<https://jalopnik.com/people-are-now-camping-out-for-the-tesla-model-3-l
ike-i-1768173573>
It¹s not just that one dude anymore. Across the country, the scene
outside many a Tesla Store is getting ridiculous as buyers line up to
put down a reservation on the Tesla Model 3, a car they¹ve never
seen before because it doesn¹t even get unveiled until late tonight.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

<kgd310F13bfU2@mid.individual.net>

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Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid2!news.neodome.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: news0...@eager.cx (Bob Eager)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.news.internet.discuss,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.and
roid
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
Date: 2 Jul 2023 10:49:04 GMT
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 by: Bob Eager - Sun, 2 Jul 2023 10:49 UTC

On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 06:03:32 -0400, nospam wrote:

> In article <u7qqnj$37cgh$1@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> [1] Evidence: The long lines of folks sitting outside Apple stores for
>> every new product release -- for which Google can find you ample news
>> coverage. All of those fanboi's that sit for days waiting for release
>> day are there to buy whatever it is that is the new thing for that
>> release day.
>
> that's called high demand.

Apple have long realised that what they are selling is not tech,

It's fashion statements. At designer prices.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

<1qd8y0g.b5l4s71s763inN%onion@anon.invalid>

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From: oni...@anon.invalid (Mr Ön!on)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.news.internet.discuss,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 15:12:23 +0100
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 by: Mr Ön!on - Sun, 2 Jul 2023 14:12 UTC

Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

> In comp.misc Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> > On 2023-07-01, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> >> In comp.misc Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >>> On 2023-07-01, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> >>>> In comp.misc Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The fact that you're actually suggesting that the 1+ billion iPhone
> >>>>> users on the planet are all supposedly "fanboi's" (sp) says way
> >>>>> more about you than anyone else. Your bias has you babbling
> >>>>> anti-intellectual foolishness. Back here in the real world, people
> >>>>> buy Apple products because they are of excellent build quality,
> >>>>> have good privacy and security protections, and provide a far
> >>>>> better overall user experience. And that really triggers haters.
> >>>>
> >>>> The fact that you are hallucinating "enough" to mean "all"
> >>>
> >>> "Enough" iPhones have sold (literal billions) that it's a successful
> >>> product, and plenty of haters like you claimed it would fail when it
> >>> was first announced - just like you are doing now with the Vision. ?
> >>
> >> because there are "enough" fanboi's who will buy it
> >
> > There's no evidence that "fanboi's" (sp) are primarily responsible for
> > the success of any of Apple's other products, nor is there any evidence
> > that would be the case with any new products Apple will release in the
> > future. And the fact that you are making that claim without evidence
> > says a lot.
>
> Third try -- and still a severe lack of reading comprehension and a
> severe case of art-student binary thinking hallucinations.
>
> I never said fanboi's were "primarily" responsible for success of any
> of Apple's products, you hallucinated that thought yourself with your
> lack of reading comprehension. Someone asked why Apple would be
> jumping into building the Vision. I remarked that one reason might be
> that they expect with high probability due to past product releases
> that at least their fanboi base [1] will buy one, so they are all but
> guaranteed those sales. And the number of fanboi's that line up for
> every release means a lot of units sold on release day.
>
> As for the future, none of us can know with any certainty what will
> happen. But the long lines for every past Apple release day means that
> predicting long lines of fanboi's lined up waiting to purchase the
> Vision on its release day is likely to be the most probable outcome.
>
> [1] Evidence: The long lines of folks sitting outside Apple stores
> for every new product release -- for which Google can find you ample
> news coverage. All of those fanboi's that sit for days waiting for
> release day are there to buy whatever it is that is the new thing for
> that release day.
>

Apple products are not designed to be suitable for everybody.
It seems that you just don't qualify, Rich; tough titties, ol' buddy.

--
\|/
(((Ï))) – Mr Ön!on
When we shake the ketchup bottle
First none comes and then a lot'll.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.news.internet.discuss,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.and,roid
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 by: Alan Browne - Sun, 2 Jul 2023 14:23 UTC

On 2023-07-02 06:49, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 06:03:32 -0400, nospam wrote:
>
>> In article <u7qqnj$37cgh$1@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> [1] Evidence: The long lines of folks sitting outside Apple stores for
>>> every new product release -- for which Google can find you ample news
>>> coverage. All of those fanboi's that sit for days waiting for release
>>> day are there to buy whatever it is that is the new thing for that
>>> release day.
>>
>> that's called high demand.
>
> Apple have long realised that what they are selling is not tech,
>
> It's fashion statements. At designer prices.

ROFL. Projecting some silly notion that has gotten out of hand.

Apple have always "painted the back side of the fence." Meaning the
design, fit and finish go beyond the ordinaries.

Apple's major technology advantage is that since they do all of the
hardware and all of the OS they can integrate across the products they
offer at a very fine detail resulting in a very high tech, seamless,
integration that all the others cannot manage - indeed
Android/Linux/Windows are all designed to prevent such integration at large.

Tech? With Apple's new processors, M1, M2 and soon the M3 (and their
variants), Apple has spotlighted the end of the x86 era - intel know
this best of all.

I still find it odd that "Free and glorious Linux" has not grown much as
a desktop environment ... and of course of late Red Hat (IBM) are
beginning to assail the core guiding principles of Linux...

--
“If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything."
-Ronald Coase

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.news.internet.discuss,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.and roid
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
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 by: Alan - Mon, 3 Jul 2023 02:38 UTC

On 2023-07-02 03:49, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 06:03:32 -0400, nospam wrote:
>
>> In article <u7qqnj$37cgh$1@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> [1] Evidence: The long lines of folks sitting outside Apple stores for
>>> every new product release -- for which Google can find you ample news
>>> coverage. All of those fanboi's that sit for days waiting for release
>>> day are there to buy whatever it is that is the new thing for that
>>> release day.
>>
>> that's called high demand.
>
> Apple have long realised that what they are selling is not tech,
>
> It's fashion statements. At designer prices.
>

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Here's the reality.

In theory, I provide technical support to both Apple and Microsoft and
Android customers.

In practice, I don't get much work from my Apple clients...

....because they just don't need much support.

So why do you think they keep buying from Apple?

It's not for the fashion statement, I guarantee you.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
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 by: sms - Tue, 4 Jul 2023 01:51 UTC

On 7/1/2023 11:35 AM, Rich wrote:

<snip>

> The "fanboi's" line up, for days before a release, around the block for
> whatever Apple's latest offering is.

That was the case five years ago or so, but that sort of thing is
history. See
<https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/why-people-dont-line-up-for-iphones-as-much-anymore/>.

One reason for the end of this era is that the carriers offer
substantial discounts, via monthly bill credits over 24-36 months, if
you buy the iPhone from them (and it will be locked until it is paid
off, except on Verizon).

If you're on an MVNO, or on a carrier's prepaid service, then buying an
unlocked phone from Apple makes sense. Since April 2023, Best Buy also
sells fully unlocked iPhones (not just "Flex Lock" iPhones). And of
course many people order their iPhones to be shipped to their home or
work address and they get it a day or two before the Apple stores start
selling them.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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 by: Otto J. Makela - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 14:51 UTC

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> As to "the consumer has rejected it", phones with integrated computers
> of some sort existed before the iPhone and were largely rejected by
> consumers are large.

Being from Finland, I'd like to point out that this view is a bit
US-centric. Nokia had their Symbian smartphones (first models came out
in 2001), they just didn't in the end succeed against Apple and Google.

Followups limited a bit.
--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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 by: nospam - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 19:11 UTC

In article <87leetcxak.fsf@tigger.extechop.net>, Otto J. Makela
<om@iki.fi> wrote:

>
> > As to "the consumer has rejected it", phones with integrated computers
> > of some sort existed before the iPhone and were largely rejected by
> > consumers are large.
>
> Being from Finland, I'd like to point out that this view is a bit
> US-centric.

it is not.

> Nokia had their Symbian smartphones (first models came out
> in 2001), they just didn't in the end succeed against Apple and Google.

that's because they weren't very good. in other words, consumers
rejected it.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,alt.cellular.nokia
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
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 by: The Real Bev - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 20:48 UTC

On 8/2/23 12:11 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <87leetcxak.fsf@tigger.extechop.net>, Otto J. Makela
> <om@iki.fi> wrote:
>
>>
>> > As to "the consumer has rejected it", phones with integrated computers
>> > of some sort existed before the iPhone and were largely rejected by
>> > consumers are large.
>>
>> Being from Finland, I'd like to point out that this view is a bit
>> US-centric.
>
> it is not.
>
>> Nokia had their Symbian smartphones (first models came out
>> in 2001), they just didn't in the end succeed against Apple and Google.
>
> that's because they weren't very good. in other words, consumers
> rejected it.

The flip-phones were fine. We sent mine (with a charger, of course) to
an elderly aunt to keep in her pocket in case she ever had to dial 911.
So far, so good.

--
Cheers, Bev
"Dammit I'm Mad" is "Dammit I'm Mad" spelled backwards.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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 by: Alan Browne - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 20:50 UTC

On 2023-08-02 10:51, Otto J. Makela wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>> As to "the consumer has rejected it", phones with integrated computers
>> of some sort existed before the iPhone and were largely rejected by
>> consumers are large.
>
> Being from Finland, I'd like to point out that this view is a bit
> US-centric. Nokia had their Symbian smartphones (first models came out
> in 2001), they just didn't in the end succeed against Apple and Google.

And that is the point, really. There were other computers integrated
with phones even earlier. An employee of mine had a Windows computer
with a phone integrated into it some time in the early 00's too.

Point is none did it well. Apple were the ones who got the secret sauce
right (even though Blackberry had pretty damned good sauce - esp. in the
business use case).

In the end of course - once Apple established what the current
smartphone "is", everyone else followed. Some didn't survive in the
market at all.

--
“If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything."
-Ronald Coase

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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 by: nospam - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 22:40 UTC

In article <uaefet$9fps$1@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev
<bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> Nokia had their Symbian smartphones (first models came out
> >> in 2001), they just didn't in the end succeed against Apple and Google.
> >
> > that's because they weren't very good. in other words, consumers
> > rejected it.
>
> The flip-phones were fine. We sent mine (with a charger, of course) to
> an elderly aunt to keep in her pocket in case she ever had to dial 911.
> So far, so good.

he's specifically talking about symbian phones.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,alt.cellular.nokia
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 20:07:04 +0200
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 by: Hergen Lehmann - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 18:07 UTC

Am 02.08.23 um 21:11 schrieb nospam:
> In article <87leetcxak.fsf@tigger.extechop.net>, Otto J. Makela
> <om@iki.fi> wrote:
>>> As to "the consumer has rejected it", phones with integrated computers
>>> of some sort existed before the iPhone and were largely rejected by
>>> consumers are large.
>>
>> Being from Finland, I'd like to point out that this view is a bit
>> US-centric.
>
> it is not.

It is.

>> Nokia had their Symbian smartphones (first models came out
>> in 2001), they just didn't in the end succeed against Apple and Google.
>
> that's because they weren't very good. in other words, consumers
> rejected it.

They were actually quite reasonable for was possible around the turn of
the millennium. And no, consumers did NOT reject them. Some early Nokia
computer/phone combos were actually quite popular here in Europe, for
example, all technology-affine management guys used to have a Nokia
Communicator at some point.

In the end, it was three factors which killed Nokia:

1. They were too early. The technology was still too expensive for the
average customer and the mobile networks not ready for large-scale data
usage. Syncing appointments and receiving/sending text-only eMail were
basically the only reasonable over-the-air functionality. Not because
the devices didn't provide a browser and installable Apps (they did,
starting with Symbian), but because data transmission was just WAY too
slow and expensive.

2. Nokia had far less marketing power than Apple and Google (especially
outside of europe) and used it poorly. When Apple started aggressively
marketing the iPhone, Nokia just reclined on their leading position in
the European market.

3. The phone branch of Nokia was ultimately bought by Microsoft, which
immediate stopped all improvement on Symbian in favor of the Mega-Flop
called Windows Mobile.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,alt.cellular.nokia
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
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 by: sms - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 22:23 UTC

On 8/2/2023 7:51 AM, Otto J. Makela wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>> As to "the consumer has rejected it", phones with integrated computers
>> of some sort existed before the iPhone and were largely rejected by
>> consumers are large.
>
> Being from Finland, I'd like to point out that this view is a bit
> US-centric. Nokia had their Symbian smartphones (first models came out
> in 2001), they just didn't in the end succeed against Apple and Google.

With the first iPhone Apple quickly dropped to price from $599 to $399
after initial sales volume of the iPhone was less than desired because
consumers rejected it based on the high price. See:
<https://www.cultofmac.com/500422/tiah-200-iphone-reduction/>.
"Suddenly, a smartphone that many people criticized as unfeasibly
expensive became far more affordable."

Those Nokia devices were not the first smart phones either, the first
smart phone was the 1994 IBM Simon, which was around $2200 in 2023 dollars.

Part of Steve Jobs genius was seeing the potential in product categories
where other companies had failed to produce a compelling product at an
acceptable price point. Apple didn't have the first personal computers,
the first tablets, the first laptops, or the first smart phones, but
they avoided the mistakes of the other companies.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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 by: nospam - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:58 UTC

In article <uah9d1$ujnp$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> With the first iPhone Apple quickly dropped to price from $599 to $399
> after initial sales volume of the iPhone was less than desired because
> consumers rejected it based on the high price.

more of your easily debunked revisionist history.

customers did *not* reject the original iphone. sales were strong, with
long lines for quite some time after release. apple met their sales
goal *well* before they said they would.

> Those Nokia devices were not the first smart phones either,

nobody said they were the first. the point is that symbian phones did
not sell well because they were not particularly compelling devices.

iphones were, and changed the entire industry as a result.

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 by: Wally J - Fri, 4 Aug 2023 00:56 UTC

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote

>> Those Nokia devices were not the first smart phones either,
>
> nobody said they were the first. the point is that symbian phones did
> not sell well because they were not particularly compelling devices.
>
> iphones were, and changed the entire industry as a result.

Only the iPhone (marketed to morons) does NOT get better, faster & cheaper.

While you can get Android phones with 1/10th the exploits and 10x the
hardware functionality for a few hundred bucks - the iPhone is expensive.

The reason is Apple has groomed an especially lucrative religious
following, which is fine - except that Samsung & Google try to copy Apple.

Luckily, Android phones _do_ get better faster & cheaper over time, so as
long as you stay away from the Samsung/Google iPhone copies you're fine.

Can you name a single other common consumer electronic device other than
the iPhone (which even Apple says in their ads they market to morons)
that does NOT get better, faster & cheaper over time?

The unfortunate thing about iPhones is that they are pretty much the _only_
common consumer electronics which does NOT get better faster & cheaper.

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 by: Mickey D - Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:11 UTC

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:

> The fact that you're actually suggesting that the 1+ billion iPhone
> users on the planet are all supposedly "fanboi's" (sp) says way more
> about you than anyone else.

Actually, think about cigarette smokers when you realize Apple has selected
the billion most gullible people on the planet to buy their product line.

Don't believe it?
Look at the kind of person Apple advertised the iPhone 14 to recently.

> Your bias has you babbling anti-intellectual
> foolishness.

The problem is the iPhone doesn't actually work in what you refer to as the
"real world" since the iPhone is barely functional on Windows & even less
so on Linux - both of which abound in what you refer to as the "real
world".

Back here in the real world, people buy Apple products
> because they are of excellent build quality, have good privacy and
> security protections, and provide a far better overall user experience.

The iPhone also has orders of magnitude more exploits and zero day holes.

What you mean by eth "real world" is Apple's fantasy world they crafted
where their iPhone is _not_ ten times more exploited than any Android.

In the real real world, the iPhone is garbage. Pretty but worthless trash.

Hell, it doesn't even have a standard jack to work in the real world.
Nor a standard portable memory card to work in teh real world.

> And that really triggers haters.

If anyone tells the truth about your religious idol, you call them a hater.

The only world the iPhone works in is the specially crafted walled garden.
But you have to be logged into it 24/7 for even the walled garden to work!

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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 by: Patron Saint - Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:18 UTC

On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 06:03:32 -0400, nospam wrote:
> that's called high demand.

There is a high demand for cocaine also, but the people who buy iPhones are
a subset of stupid, like cocaine users, who don't understand what it does.

Just look at any Apple advertisement to see how Apple selects for stupid.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
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 by: Charles Jack Jones - Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:23 UTC

Mr �n!on <onion@anon.invalid> wrote

> Apple products are not designed to be suitable for everybody.
> It seems that you just don't qualify, Rich; tough titties, ol' buddy.

To own an Apple product is to be p'owned by Apple because nothing works
unless you're logged into Apple servers 24/7/365 due to the walled garden.

While Apple owners don't mind being locked into a prison, smart people do.

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 by: Alan - Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:22 UTC

On 2023-08-03 21:11, Mickey D wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:
>
>> The fact that you're actually suggesting that the 1+ billion iPhone
>> users on the planet are all supposedly "fanboi's" (sp) says way more
>> about you than anyone else.
>
> Actually, think about cigarette smokers when you realize Apple has selected
> the billion most gullible people on the planet to buy their product line.

Really, Arlen?

More gullible than you?

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 by: Alan - Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:23 UTC

On 2023-08-03 21:18, Patron Saint wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 06:03:32 -0400, nospam wrote:
>> that's called high demand.
>
> There is a high demand for cocaine also, but the people who buy iPhones are
> a subset of stupid, like cocaine users, who don't understand what it does.
>
> Just look at any Apple advertisement to see how Apple selects for stupid.

Just look at all the satisfied customers who buy Apple products over and
over...

....Arlen.

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 by: Alan - Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:23 UTC

On 2023-08-03 21:23, Charles Jack Jones wrote:
> Mr �n!on <onion@anon.invalid> wrote
>> Apple products are not designed to be suitable for everybody. It seems
>> that you just don't qualify, Rich; tough titties, ol' buddy.
>
> To own an Apple product is to be p'owned by Apple because nothing works
> unless you're logged into Apple servers 24/7/365 due to the walled garden.

Bzzzzt.

Wrong.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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From: nob...@oscarmayer.com (Oscar Mayer)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.news.internet.discuss,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 00:29:24 -0400
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 by: Oscar Mayer - Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:29 UTC

On 4/7/2023, sms wrote:

>> The "fanboi's" line up, for days before a release, around the block for
>> whatever Apple's latest offering is.
>
> That was the case five years ago or so, but that sort of thing is
> history

Not really history because Apple customers are driven only by style.

Maybe you haven't seen Apple's advertisements telling people that the
biggest development in iPhones is they made the color a special yellow?

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.news.internet.discuss,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 07:14:24 -0700
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In-Reply-To: <uahuph$155mt$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Alan - Fri, 4 Aug 2023 14:14 UTC

On 2023-08-03 21:29, Oscar Mayer wrote:
> On 4/7/2023, sms wrote:
>
>>> The "fanboi's" line up, for days before a release, around the block for
>>> whatever Apple's latest offering is.
>>
>> That was the case five years ago or so, but that sort of thing is history
>
> Not really history because Apple customers are driven only by style.
>
> Maybe you haven't seen Apple's advertisements telling people that the
> biggest development in iPhones is they made the color a special yellow?

Maybe you haven't figured out that that's simply not true.

As in utterly false.

As in there are current Apple ads that don't mention colour.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
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 by: nospam - Sun, 6 Aug 2023 18:08 UTC

In article <8v6tpj-6p2m2.ln1@hergen.spdns.de>, Hergen Lehmann
<hlehmann.expires.12-22@snafu.de> wrote:

> >>> As to "the consumer has rejected it", phones with integrated computers
> >>> of some sort existed before the iPhone and were largely rejected by
> >>> consumers are large.
> >>
> >> Being from Finland, I'd like to point out that this view is a bit
> >> US-centric.
> >
> > it is not.
>
> It is.

it is not. symbian phones were available worldwide, and they did not
sell in appreciable numbers..

> >> Nokia had their Symbian smartphones (first models came out
> >> in 2001), they just didn't in the end succeed against Apple and Google.
> >
> > that's because they weren't very good. in other words, consumers
> > rejected it.
>
> They were actually quite reasonable for was possible around the turn of
> the millennium.

perhaps so, but that doesn't mean they were any good. they weren't.

> And no, consumers did NOT reject them.

they did not sell well, so yes consumers did reject them.

> Some early Nokia
> computer/phone combos were actually quite popular here in Europe, for
> example, all technology-affine management guys used to have a Nokia
> Communicator at some point.
>
> In the end, it was three factors which killed Nokia:

really just one: it wasn't anywhere near as good as iphone and android.

> 1. They were too early.

that's not a flaw.

> The technology was still too expensive for the
> average customer and the mobile networks not ready for large-scale data
> usage.

wifi.

> Syncing appointments and receiving/sending text-only eMail were
> basically the only reasonable over-the-air functionality.

which could be done on a flipper.

> Not because
> the devices didn't provide a browser and installable Apps (they did,
> starting with Symbian), but because data transmission was just WAY too
> slow and expensive.

the browser and third party apps were not particularly good and
comparatively expensive, most apps in the iphone app store were free,
and of the paid apps, they were a buck or two. it was also *much*
easier to write ios apps, especially since code could be shared from
the mac.

> 2. Nokia had far less marketing power than Apple and Google (especially
> outside of europe) and used it poorly. When Apple started aggressively
> marketing the iPhone, Nokia just reclined on their leading position in
> the European market.

that's because they knew they didn't have anything that could come
close to the iphone and android.

people wanted iphones and android phones. the products sold themselves.

> 3. The phone branch of Nokia was ultimately bought by Microsoft, which
> immediate stopped all improvement on Symbian in favor of the Mega-Flop
> called Windows Mobile.

true.

Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence

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From: hlehmann...@snafu.de (Hergen Lehmann)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,alt.cellular.nokia
Subject: Re: France Wants to Sue Apple for Planned Obsolescence
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2023 22:11:05 +0200
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 by: Hergen Lehmann - Sun, 6 Aug 2023 20:11 UTC

Am 06.08.23 um 20:08 schrieb nospam:

> it is not. symbian phones were available worldwide, and they did not
> sell in appreciable numbers..

Thanks for confirming your *very* US-centric view. ^_-
Nokia was actually No.1 in Europe in the early 2000s...

>> They were actually quite reasonable for was possible around the turn of
>> the millennium.
>
> perhaps so, but that doesn't mean they were any good. they weren't.

A handy little device with expandable software and mobile network
connectivity was absolutely stunning in the late 90s, were phones used
to be phones, PDAs used to be offline devices with limited software and
Laptops used to be heavy and bulky.

But these early smartphones were pretty expensive and of limited use due
to the lack of fast mobile data networks, which limited the target
audience very much (basically, only tech geeks and management guys).

>> In the end, it was three factors which killed Nokia:
>
> really just one: it wasn't anywhere near as good as iphone and android.

Oh, come on. You really want to compare products, which were developed
more than 10 years apart?

And: The first iPhone wasn't really that good either. Tiny screen, no
support for the state-of-the-art network technology of the time (UMTS),
only available in conjunction with an expensive "exclusive" phone
contract, very little software available in the store in the beginning.

The design was fancy and the marketing was superb, that's all.

>> 1. They were too early.
>
> that's not a flaw.

It is, because after many years of a niche presence, the product line
was accursed from the management perspective and they failed to invest
again, when it was necessary to do so.

>> The technology was still too expensive for the
>> average customer and the mobile networks not ready for large-scale data
>> usage.
>
> wifi.

The main selling point for a smartphone is mobility, and public WIFI was
almost non-existent back then.

>> Not because
>> the devices didn't provide a browser and installable Apps (they did,
>> starting with Symbian), but because data transmission was just WAY too
>> slow and expensive.
>
> the browser and third party apps were not particularly good and
> comparatively expensive,

The browser of the first iPhone wasn't particularly good and usable
either. It took a few years for the screen sizes to grow bigger and for
the web sites to adapt to mobile devices.

> most apps in the iphone app store were free, and of the paid apps, they were a buck or two.

The situation in the symbian store wasn't really that different.
Most of it was cheap. There were a few more expensive apps, but these
were either selling premium content (e.g. offline maps) or were targeted
toward big enterprises (mobile office).

> it was also *much*
> easier to write ios apps, especially since code could be shared from
> the mac.

True. Symbian tried to follow up by switching from a proprietary API
towards QT, but this did not gain enough momentum, before MS killed
everything.

>> 2. Nokia had far less marketing power than Apple and Google (especially
>> outside of europe) and used it poorly. When Apple started aggressively
>> marketing the iPhone, Nokia just reclined on their leading position in
>> the European market.
>
> that's because they knew they didn't have anything that could come
> close to the iphone and android.

They actually had some pretty competitive devices back then, but they
failed to push them in time and improve upon them.

I remember having a Nokia 5800 at the time, which isn't really that far
away from the first iPhone Generation feature-wise. There was also the
N95/N96 Series, with a slider design, but again pretty much the same
feature set as the iPhone.

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