On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:48:07 AM UTC-5, Neil Rieck wrote:
> Don't know how many people here watch "Young Sheldon" which is a spinoff of "The Big Bang Theory". Anyway, last night we see Sheldon Cooper take delivery of a main frame in his dorm. What got rolled in was a VAX-6000-420 with three racks of disk storage. I guess Chuck Lorre and staff didn't know this was a mini (or perhaps they did but just liked the sound of Sheldon say "I need a mainframe")
>
> Neil Rieck
> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> http://neilrieck.net
> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
The one minute scene is at or near https://youtu.be/GhNh6GgNpVo

Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>On 2/12/2023 6:44 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 2/12/2023 6:08 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 2/12/2023 3:14 PM, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>>>> The difference in floating point performance between a straight 11/780
>>>>> and a Sparcstation I was absolutely staggering. [...]
>>>>
>>>> Well, duh. "absolutely staggering" is how I might describe the _age_
>>>> of a VAX-11/780 when the SPARCstation 1 was released (1989). A decade
>>>> later, the SPARCstation 1 might have been less impressive, too. (As I
>>>> recall, it was.)
>>>
>>> Perhaps cost is an issue? The cost of a VAX 11/780 back then, even after 11
>>> years, might still be on one's mind, and the reason it still might be in use.
>>
>> I think you are on to something.
>>
>> What did a SPARCstation 1 cost in 1989?
>>
>> What did a VAX 780 (let us say maxed out with memory)
>> cost in 1979?
>
>Most likely in the neighborhood of half a million ...
>
>Some of that will be the disk drives, which were over 20K, each ..

.... and if you were smart you got a service contract on them... which was
expensive but paid for itself very quickly in RA81 heads...
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 3:52:31 PM UTC-8, Johnny Billquist wrote:

(snip)

> Correct. From a hardware point of view, those are just blocks just like
> anything else. No difference at all.
> However, the tape have blocks. You have the tape marks, blocking and
> other stuff going on, to try to ensure your data is safe and don't get
> corrupted. It's all down in the hardware, but that don't mean it work
> any worse/different.
I haven't thought about this for years. I believe there is either parity
or CRC at the end of a block, in addition to the parity bit for each character.
I suspect that lower density have parity and higher (and later) have CRC.

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:03:06 PM UTC-5, LakeGator wrote:
> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:48:07 AM UTC-5, Neil Rieck wrote:
> > Don't know how many people here watch "Young Sheldon" which is a spinoff of "The Big Bang Theory". Anyway, last night we see Sheldon Cooper take delivery of a main frame in his dorm. What got rolled in was a VAX-6000-420 with three racks of disk storage. I guess Chuck Lorre and staff didn't know this was a mini (or perhaps they did but just liked the sound of Sheldon say "I need a mainframe")
> >
> > Neil Rieck
> > Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> > http://neilrieck.net
> > http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
> The one minute scene is at or near https://youtu.be/GhNh6GgNpVo

Thanks for the video clip

Definitively different racks of storage. At least two of the racks contain RA80 series drives:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/brochures/DEC-RA-FamilyOfWinchesterDiskDrives.pdf

Not sure about the other racks (could be RM series drives like RM03)

The monitor looks like a VT420 and is sitting on an Orange manual so VMS-4

According to this article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS ) VAX-6000 was released with VMS-5 so Chuck Lorre's people messed up

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
http://neilrieck.net/

On 2023-02-14 13:45, Neil Rieck wrote:
> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:03:06 PM UTC-5, LakeGator wrote:
>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:48:07 AM UTC-5, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>> Don't know how many people here watch "Young Sheldon" which is a spinoff of "The Big Bang Theory". Anyway, last night we see Sheldon Cooper take delivery of a main frame in his dorm. What got rolled in was a VAX-6000-420 with three racks of disk storage. I guess Chuck Lorre and staff didn't know this was a mini (or perhaps they did but just liked the sound of Sheldon say "I need a mainframe")
>>>
>>> Neil Rieck
>>> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
>>> http://neilrieck.net
>>> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
>> The one minute scene is at or near https://youtu.be/GhNh6GgNpVo
>
> Thanks for the video clip
>
> Definitively different racks of storage. At least two of the racks contain RA80 series drives:
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/brochures/DEC-RA-FamilyOfWinchesterDiskDrives.pdf

Lots of weird stuff. However, as far as I can tell (see):

Right most rack contains four RA60.
I *think* the next rack (second from right) are four RA8x drives.
Third from right rack contains 8 RA9x drives.

Then you have the VAX 6000-420 (if I read the nameplate right).

Rack on the left looks like it might have an RA60 on top and an RA8x below.

> Not sure about the other racks (could be RM series drives like RM03)

No. Definitely no RM drives in there, or anything beyond RA.

> The monitor looks like a VT420 and is sitting on an Orange manual so VMS-4

Yeah. Definitely VT420.

> According to this article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS ) VAX-6000 was released with VMS-5 so Chuck Lorre's people messed up

Well, the weird lightning on the VAX when power goes on is rather fake
as well, and people seem to have been creative putting on coloring on
various buttons on the RA drives as well. All looking rather odd.

Johnny

On 2/14/2023 4:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-02-14 13:45, Neil Rieck wrote:
>> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:03:06 PM UTC-5, LakeGator wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:48:07 AM UTC-5, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>>> Don't know how many people here watch "Young Sheldon" which is a
>>>> spinoff of "The Big Bang Theory". Anyway, last night we see Sheldon
>>>> Cooper take delivery of a main frame in his dorm. What got rolled in
>>>> was a VAX-6000-420 with three racks of disk storage. I guess Chuck
>>>> Lorre and staff didn't know this was a mini (or perhaps they did but
>>>> just liked the sound of Sheldon say "I need a mainframe")
>>>>
>>>> Neil Rieck
>>>> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
>>>> http://neilrieck.net
>>>> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
>>> The one minute scene is at or near https://youtu.be/GhNh6GgNpVo
>>
>> Thanks for the video clip
>>
>> Definitively different racks of storage. At least two of the racks
>> contain RA80 series drives:
>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/brochures/DEC-RA-FamilyOfWinchesterDiskDrives.pdf
>
> Lots of weird stuff. However, as far as I can tell (see):
>
> Right most rack contains four RA60.
> I *think* the next rack (second from right) are four RA8x drives.
> Third from right rack contains 8 RA9x drives.
>
> Then you have the VAX 6000-420 (if I read the nameplate right).
>
> Rack on the left looks like it might have an RA60 on top and an RA8x below.
>
>> Not sure about the other racks (could be RM series drives like RM03)
>
> No. Definitely no RM drives in there, or anything beyond RA.
>
>> The monitor looks like a VT420 and is sitting on an Orange manual so
>> VMS-4
>
> Yeah. Definitely VT420.
>
>> According to this article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS )
>> VAX-6000 was released with VMS-5 so Chuck Lorre's people messed up
>
> Well, the weird lightning on the VAX when power goes on is rather fake
> as well, and people seem to have been creative putting on coloring on
> various buttons on the RA drives as well. All looking rather odd.
>

I have never watched the show (an never will) or the original but I
have to ask.
How does an underage nerd going to college afford something like that?
How did he get a dorm room by himself? Where is he going that the dorm
rooms are that big? And the list goes on and on and on.
But then, that's probably why I don't watch any of this crap on TV.

bill

On 2023-02-15 00:36, bill wrote:
> On 2/14/2023 4:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2023-02-14 13:45, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:03:06 PM UTC-5, LakeGator wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:48:07 AM UTC-5, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>>>> Don't know how many people here watch "Young Sheldon" which is a
>>>>> spinoff of "The Big Bang Theory". Anyway, last night we see Sheldon
>>>>> Cooper take delivery of a main frame in his dorm. What got rolled
>>>>> in was a VAX-6000-420 with three racks of disk storage. I guess
>>>>> Chuck Lorre and staff didn't know this was a mini (or perhaps they
>>>>> did but just liked the sound of Sheldon say "I need a mainframe")
>>>>>
>>>>> Neil Rieck
>>>>> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
>>>>> http://neilrieck.net
>>>>> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
>>>> The one minute scene is at or near https://youtu.be/GhNh6GgNpVo
>>>
>>> Thanks for the video clip
>>>
>>> Definitively different racks of storage. At least two of the racks
>>> contain RA80 series drives:
>>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/brochures/DEC-RA-FamilyOfWinchesterDiskDrives.pdf
>>
>> Lots of weird stuff. However, as far as I can tell (see):
>>
>> Right most rack contains four RA60.
>> I *think* the next rack (second from right) are four RA8x drives.
>> Third from right rack contains 8 RA9x drives.
>>
>> Then you have the VAX 6000-420 (if I read the nameplate right).
>>
>> Rack on the left looks like it might have an RA60 on top and an RA8x
>> below.
>>
>>> Not sure about the other racks (could be RM series drives like RM03)
>>
>> No. Definitely no RM drives in there, or anything beyond RA.
>>
>>> The monitor looks like a VT420 and is sitting on an Orange manual so
>>> VMS-4
>>
>> Yeah. Definitely VT420.
>>
>>> According to this article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS )
>>> VAX-6000 was released with VMS-5 so Chuck Lorre's people messed up
>>
>> Well, the weird lightning on the VAX when power goes on is rather fake
>> as well, and people seem to have been creative putting on coloring on
>> various buttons on the RA drives as well. All looking rather odd.
>>
>
> I have never watched the show (an never will) or the original but I
> have to ask.
> How does an underage nerd going to college afford something like that?
> How did he get a dorm room by himself?  Where is he going that the dorm
> rooms are that big?  And the list goes on and on and on.
> But then, that's probably why I don't watch any of this crap on TV.

I haven't watched it either. Just looked at that one minute clip on Youtube.

Obviously this is just a silly TV show, so the questions aren't really
meaningful anyway, since it's all weird fiction.

JOhnny

bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>I have never watched the show (an never will) or the original but I
>have to ask.
>How does an underage nerd going to college afford something like that?
>How did he get a dorm room by himself? Where is he going that the dorm
>rooms are that big? And the list goes on and on and on.
>But then, that's probably why I don't watch any of this crap on TV.

The same way everyone gets rich enough to afford something like that:
by selling fraudulent stocks in internet startups.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 2/14/2023 6:49 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-02-15 00:36, bill wrote:
>> On 2/14/2023 4:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-14 13:45, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>>> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:03:06 PM UTC-5, LakeGator wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:48:07 AM UTC-5, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>>>>> Don't know how many people here watch "Young Sheldon" which is a spinoff
>>>>>> of "The Big Bang Theory". Anyway, last night we see Sheldon Cooper take
>>>>>> delivery of a main frame in his dorm. What got rolled in was a
>>>>>> VAX-6000-420 with three racks of disk storage. I guess Chuck Lorre and
>>>>>> staff didn't know this was a mini (or perhaps they did but just liked the
>>>>>> sound of Sheldon say "I need a mainframe")
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neil Rieck
>>>>>> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
>>>>>> http://neilrieck.net
>>>>>> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
>>>>> The one minute scene is at or near https://youtu.be/GhNh6GgNpVo
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the video clip
>>>>
>>>> Definitively different racks of storage. At least two of the racks contain
>>>> RA80 series drives:
>>>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/brochures/DEC-RA-FamilyOfWinchesterDiskDrives.pdf
>>>>
>>>
>>> Lots of weird stuff. However, as far as I can tell (see):
>>>
>>> Right most rack contains four RA60.
>>> I *think* the next rack (second from right) are four RA8x drives.
>>> Third from right rack contains 8 RA9x drives.
>>>
>>> Then you have the VAX 6000-420 (if I read the nameplate right).
>>>
>>> Rack on the left looks like it might have an RA60 on top and an RA8x below.
>>>
>>>> Not sure about the other racks (could be RM series drives like RM03)
>>>
>>> No. Definitely no RM drives in there, or anything beyond RA.
>>>
>>>> The monitor looks like a VT420 and is sitting on an Orange manual so VMS-4
>>>
>>> Yeah. Definitely VT420.
>>>
>>>> According to this article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS ) VAX-6000
>>>> was released with VMS-5 so Chuck Lorre's people messed up
>>>
>>> Well, the weird lightning on the VAX when power goes on is rather fake as
>>> well, and people seem to have been creative putting on coloring on various
>>> buttons on the RA drives as well. All looking rather odd.
>>>
>>
>> I have never watched the show (an never will) or the original but I
>> have to ask.
>> How does an underage nerd going to college afford something like that?
>> How did he get a dorm room by himself? Where is he going that the dorm
>> rooms are that big? And the list goes on and on and on.
>> But then, that's probably why I don't watch any of this crap on TV.
>
> I haven't watched it either. Just looked at that one minute clip on Youtube.
>
> Obviously this is just a silly TV show, so the questions aren't really
> meaningful anyway, since it's all weird fiction.
>
> JOhnny
>

I didn't watch the show when it was on TV. A few years ago I started, boredom I
guess, watching some youtube pieces. I have to admit, some of the scenes were
hilarious. I still don't have a TV, and would not watch the crap that is normal
on TV, but, I have to say, some of "The Big Bang Theory" really had some funny
scenes.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

The cabinet to the right of the VAX looks like an SA650 - from what I remember, a whole ~9Gb of storage.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158707658212504&set=p.10158707658212504&type=3

On 2/14/2023 3:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> Well, the weird lightning on the VAX when power goes on is rather fake
> as well, and people seem to have been creative putting on coloring on
> various buttons on the RA drives as well. All looking rather odd.
> Of course. Everyone knows that computers can't really be working
unless there are lots of multi-colored lights blinking off and on! 8-)

--
Hunter
------
Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/
goathunter@goatley.com http://hunter.goatley.com/

On 2023-02-15 12:27, cao...@pitbulluk.org wrote:
> The cabinet to the right of the VAX looks like an SA650 - from what I remember, a whole ~9Gb of storage.
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158707658212504&set=p.10158707658212504&type=3

Might be a SA600 or SA650. Impossible to tell from this side. The
difference is in the cabling. But I would guess on a SA600 since that
was the initial one. When the RA7x drives came, you had a frame where
you could mount four in the same space as one RA9x. But you need four
times more cabling, and that was what the SA650 added compared to the SA600.

Johnny

On 2023-02-15 17:20, Hunter Goatley wrote:
> On 2/14/2023 3:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >
> > Well, the weird lightning on the VAX when power goes on is rather fake
> > as well, and people seem to have been creative putting on coloring on
> > various buttons on the RA drives as well. All looking rather odd.
> Of course. Everyone knows that computers can't really be working
> unless there are lots of multi-colored lights blinking off and on! 8-)

:-P

Yeah, I suspect that's partially it. I was sortof wondering if they did
some of that "upgrade" for the TV show, or if the actual owner himself
(herself?) actually did that because it looked "cooler".
Anyway, the way the whole thing just went on and immediately lighted up
makes me think that it was just front panels and lamps, and no real
hardware involved in that whole scene. Otherwise most people should
remember the delay between power on and ready lights actually coming on.

Johnny

On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 10:23:10 PM UTC-8, David Jones wrote:

(snip)
> The appendix describes lrc and crc for NRZ1 format (and crc only for 800 CPI) but says explicitly that PE format has neither.

OK, but NRZI needs it a lot more!

NRZI depends on their being at least one flux transition ('1' bit) in each character.
(Oops for whoever decided to use even parity on 7 track tapes.)
All tracks clock together. A tiny head azimuth error, and it fails.

PE clocks each track separately. No problems with head azimuth.
Another way to look at it, is that PE puts a parity bit on each bit.

I thought that GCR uses CRC, but haven't actually thought it for 40 years.

On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 3:52:31 PM UTC-8, Johnny Billquist wrote:

(snip)

> Correct. From a hardware point of view, those are just blocks just like
> anything else. No difference at all.
> However, the tape have blocks. You have the tape marks, blocking and
> other stuff going on, to try to ensure your data is safe and don't get
> corrupted. It's all down in the hardware, but that don't mean it work
> any worse/different.
The first thing OS/360 and successors do when a tape is mounted,
is read the label (,SL), or verify that there isn't one (,NL).
Systems I knew would let you read, but not write, with (,BLP).
(That is, bypass label processing.)

The drives will read until they find either data or a tape mark, or the
tape goes off the reel. (The foil EOT markers are only used on writing.)

No comment on how I know that.

On 2/16/2023 2:52 PM, gah4 wrote:
> The first thing OS/360 and successors do when a tape is mounted,
> is read the label (,SL), or verify that there isn't one (,NL).
> Systems I knew would let you read, but not write, with (,BLP).
> (That is, bypass label processing.)

MOUNT /OVER=ID on VMS bypasses everything.

> The drives will read until they find either data or a tape mark, or the
> tape goes off the reel. (The foil EOT markers are only used on writing.)
>
> No comment on how I know that.

I remember SYS$QIOW with IO$_READLBLK. Do one
after logical end of tape and it was a runaway tape
having to wait until tape ran out.

Arne

On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 5:59:57 PM UTC-8, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/16/2023 2:52 PM, gah4 wrote:
> > The first thing OS/360 and successors do when a tape is mounted,
> > is read the label (,SL), or verify that there isn't one (,NL).
> > Systems I knew would let you read, but not write, with (,BLP).
> > (That is, bypass label processing.)

> MOUNT /OVER=ID on VMS bypasses everything.
> > The drives will read until they find either data or a tape mark, or the
> > tape goes off the reel. (The foil EOT markers are only used on writing.)
The idea of labels, is that it protects against the operator mounting
the wrong tape. If you say (,NL) then it verifies that there isn't a label..

I used to know a program that would tell you, at a low level, what
was on a tape. I believe it would even read past the double tape mark
that is supposed to end the tape. And for that, you mount (,BLP)
but also have to have the write ring out. The OS verifies that.

Among others, it tells you the data set names on the label,
so you can read them if you forget them.

There might be systems that allow (,BLP) for writing, but not
the ones I used.

Do VMS operators ever mount the wrong tape?

On 2/16/2023 9:47 PM, gah4 wrote:
> On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 5:59:57 PM UTC-8, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 2/16/2023 2:52 PM, gah4 wrote:
>>> The first thing OS/360 and successors do when a tape is mounted,
>>> is read the label (,SL), or verify that there isn't one (,NL).
>>> Systems I knew would let you read, but not write, with (,BLP).
>>> (That is, bypass label processing.)
>
>> MOUNT /OVER=ID on VMS bypasses everything.
>
> The idea of labels, is that it protects against the operator mounting
> the wrong tape. If you say (,NL) then it verifies that there isn't a label.
>
> I used to know a program that would tell you, at a low level, what
> was on a tape. I believe it would even read past the double tape mark
> that is supposed to end the tape. And for that, you mount (,BLP)
> but also have to have the write ring out. The OS verifies that.
>
> Among others, it tells you the data set names on the label,
> so you can read them if you forget them.
>
> There might be systems that allow (,BLP) for writing, but not
> the ones I used.
>
> Do VMS operators ever mount the wrong tape?

Sure.

And without /OVER=ID they will get an error.

With /OVER=ID then ...

Arne

Den 2023-02-17 kl. 03:55, skrev Arne Vajhøj:
> On 2/16/2023 9:47 PM, gah4 wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 5:59:57 PM UTC-8, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 2/16/2023 2:52 PM, gah4 wrote:
>>>> The first thing OS/360 and successors do when a tape is mounted,
>>>> is read the label (,SL), or verify that there isn't one (,NL).
>>>> Systems I knew would let you read, but not write, with (,BLP).
>>>> (That is, bypass label processing.)
>>
>>> MOUNT /OVER=ID on VMS bypasses everything.
>> The idea of labels, is that it protects against the operator mounting
>> the wrong tape.  If you say (,NL) then it verifies that there isn't a label.
>>
>> I used to know a program that would tell you, at a low level, what
>> was on a tape.  I believe it would even read past the double tape mark
>> that is supposed to end the tape.  And for that, you mount (,BLP)
>> but also have to have the write ring out.  The OS verifies that.
>>
>> Among others, it tells you the data set names on the label,
>> so you can read them if you forget them.
>>
>> There might be systems that allow (,BLP) for writing, but not
>> the ones I used.
>>
>> Do VMS operators ever mount the wrong tape?
>
> Sure.
>
> And without /OVER=ID they will get an error.
>
> With /OVER=ID then ...
>
> Arne
>
>

Note that you cannot mount using /ove=ide together with /system.
So you can use it locally for your own process, or just to lookup
the label and then dism and remount using the correct label.

On 2/17/2023 7:06 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2023-02-17 kl. 03:55, skrev Arne Vajhøj:
>> On 2/16/2023 9:47 PM, gah4 wrote:
>>> On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 5:59:57 PM UTC-8, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 2/16/2023 2:52 PM, gah4 wrote:
>>>>> The first thing OS/360 and successors do when a tape is mounted,
>>>>> is read the label (,SL), or verify that there isn't one (,NL).
>>>>> Systems I knew would let you read, but not write, with (,BLP).
>>>>> (That is, bypass label processing.)
>>>
>>>> MOUNT /OVER=ID on VMS bypasses everything.
>>> The idea of labels, is that it protects against the operator mounting
>>> the wrong tape.  If you say (,NL) then it verifies that there isn't a
>>> label.
>>>
>>> I used to know a program that would tell you, at a low level, what
>>> was on a tape.  I believe it would even read past the double tape mark
>>> that is supposed to end the tape.  And for that, you mount (,BLP)
>>> but also have to have the write ring out.  The OS verifies that.
>>>
>>> Among others, it tells you the data set names on the label,
>>> so you can read them if you forget them.
>>>
>>> There might be systems that allow (,BLP) for writing, but not
>>> the ones I used.
>>>
>>> Do VMS operators ever mount the wrong tape?
>>
>> Sure.
>>
>> And without /OVER=ID they will get an error.
>>
>> With /OVER=ID then ...
>
> Note that you cannot mount using /ove=ide together with /system.
> So you can use it locally for your own process, or just to lookup
> the label and then dism and remount using the correct label.

And relevant for disks.

But I don't think I have ever tried /SYS with a tape.

Arne

On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 4:28:11 PM UTC-8, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/11/2023 7:02 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > On 2023-02-11 17:26, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> On 2/11/2023 11:18 AM, Tony Priborsky wrote:
> >>> I'm pretty sure it didn't write a native VMS backup saveset -
> >>> remember the CPU on the HSC was a PDP-11. Logically the backup was
> >>> the equivalent of VMS "BACKUP/PHYSICAL". I seem to recall that at
> >>> some point the VMS backup could restore (read) a HSC backup.
> >>
> >> So no CRC and no redundancy groups?
> >
> > Depends on how you mean that. Tapes have CRC on the data unless I
> > remember wrong. Just like disks have.
> As I remember 9 track tapes then it was pure data blocks
> and tape marks - no CRC.
>
> If mounted as labeled tape then some blocks were
> considered VOL and HDR blocks, but that was an OS
> feature not a drive feature.
>
> Arne

(and to previous)

9 track tapes had a byte parity and a block CRC but no ECC. The HSC backup depended on the tape error DETECTION but had no correction. Given the shelf life of tape data (due to imprint) they were not intended as a long term backup but rather as a fast backup / replace disk / restore. They were to be augmented by the slower OS based backups (remember, the HSC was used on both VMS (32bit) and PDP-20 (36 bit) machines.

The VMS backup was incredibly robust. A VMS person - Kerbey Altmann as I recall - demonstrated the error handling capability by making a VMS backup saveset to magtape and then actually scraped the magnetic coating off a small piece of mylar (such that it affected at most one tape block, and for demo purposes did not span two blocks). Then the restore operation kicked in to using the XOR block recovery and successfully "rode through". You could see the tape "rocking" as it tried to find the missing data and then would re-sync and resume reading. It was more than adequate to handle the hardware CRC errors that could happen on normal magtape due to wear etc.

On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 4:45:27 AM UTC-8, Neil Rieck wrote:
> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:03:06 PM UTC-5, LakeGator wrote:
> > On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:48:07 AM UTC-5, Neil Rieck wrote:
> > > Don't know how many people here watch "Young Sheldon" which is a spinoff of "The Big Bang Theory". Anyway, last night we see Sheldon Cooper take delivery of a main frame in his dorm. What got rolled in was a VAX-6000-420 with three racks of disk storage. I guess Chuck Lorre and staff didn't know this was a mini (or perhaps they did but just liked the sound of Sheldon say "I need a mainframe")
> > >
> > > Neil Rieck
> > > Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> > > http://neilrieck.net
> > > http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
> > The one minute scene is at or near https://youtu.be/GhNh6GgNpVo
> Thanks for the video clip
>
> Definitively different racks of storage. At least two of the racks contain RA80 series drives:
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/brochures/DEC-RA-FamilyOfWinchesterDiskDrives.pdf
>
> Not sure about the other racks (could be RM series drives like RM03)
>
> The monitor looks like a VT420 and is sitting on an Orange manual so VMS-4
>
> According to this article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS ) VAX-6000 was released with VMS-5 so Chuck Lorre's people messed up
> Neil Rieck
> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> http://neilrieck.net/

I think the topics in this region got the correct RA series identifiers. The RA8X and RA9X all had the same front panel (with run/stop, unit number, and A/B ports) so they would be hard to tell but the labels would say.

There can be NO RM series disks on the VAX6000. Those discs were Massbus devices and the massbus disappeard with the VAX9000. [I can't recall if the VAX8XXX (Nautilus) family had a MBA (Massbus Adapter) but maybe... By that time clusters were pretty well engrained in the culture so most shipped with CIs and HSCs ]

On 2/18/2023 4:26 PM, Tony Priborsky wrote:

> There can be NO RM series disks on the VAX6000. Those discs were Massbus
> devices and the massbus disappeard with the VAX9000. [I can't recall if the
> VAX8XXX (Nautilus) family had a MBA (Massbus Adapter) but maybe... By that
> time clusters were pretty well engrained in the culture so most shipped with
> CIs and HSCs ]

The 8600/8650 was the last VAX with the Massbus.

The 9000 did not have a Massbus.

--

--- Rob

Tony Priborsky <twobjshelbys@gmail.com> writes:

> on both VMS (32bit) and PDP-20 (36 bit) machines.

Point of order: There was never a family called the "PDP-20".

All of the post 1964 36-bit architecture machines (derived from 1964's PDP-6)
are classed as PDP-10s, whether labeled "PDP-10", "decsystem-10", or "DECSYSTEM-20".

In fact, the follow-on (codenamed "Jupiter"), which was supposed to use the
HSC-50 exclusively, was going to be called the "DECSYSTEM-40", based on the
marketing materials I have seen. (I have binders with silkscreened labels
reading "DECSYSTEM-4050".)

Even clones, like the Xerox PARC MAXC, the Foonly F-series, the Systems
Concepts SC-30M/SC-25/SC-40, and the XKL Toad-1 and Toad-2, are referred to as
"PDP-10 systems".

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

On 2023-02-18 22:26, Tony Priborsky wrote:
> I think the topics in this region got the correct RA series identifiers. The RA8X and RA9X all had the same front panel (with run/stop, unit number, and A/B ports) so they would be hard to tell but the labels would say.

It is true that you had the same buttons, but then again, those same
buttons can also be found on all massbus drives, and even the RK06 and RK07.

The RA8x and RA9x are not in any way similar to each other in any other
way. The RA8x are full 19" width units, while the RA9x are half width,
and you sit two RA9x drives beside each other on one mounting level in a
19" cabinet.
The RA8x have unit selection plugs when you cut off tabs on the backside
of the plug to select the unit number, which you then also put a sticker
on the front of the plug to tell what unit it was.
The RA9x drives have a 4 position LED display (15 segments) which can
show both unit # as well as status information.

> There can be NO RM series disks on the VAX6000. Those discs were Massbus devices and the massbus disappeard with the VAX9000. [I can't recall if the VAX8XXX (Nautilus) family had a MBA (Massbus Adapter) but maybe... By that time clusters were pretty well engrained in the culture so most shipped with CIs and HSCs ]

The last VAXen to normally see Massbus drives were the VAX86x0, which
was also the last VAX with SBI. All machines after that have VAXBI or
XMI. Not sure if a Massbus adapter even existed for those. Rumours have
there was a Unibus adapter, but it appears to have been very rare.

Johnny