https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58795119

"Windows 11 launches with redesigned start menu

Windows 11, the latest version of Microsoft's computer operating system,
launches worldwide on Tuesday as a free upgrade for Windows 10 users.

Windows chief product officer Panos Panay, told the BBC the latest
version was built to be "clean and fresh and simpler" for the user.

He promised that the new operating system would not be an "extreme
departure" from what people know.

And even the least tech-savvy users can upgrade easily, he added.

[...]

The minimum requirements include a type of security chip - called a TPM
- only installed on modern computers.

"If your device does not meet these requirements, you may not be able to
install Windows 11 on your device and might want to consider purchasing
a new PC," Microsoft says."

No thanks, I have a perfectly good PC here, why would I want to purchase
a new one just to run W11?

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58795119
>
> Windows chief product officer Panos Panay, told the BBC the latest
> version was built to be "clean and fresh and simpler" for the user.

As the desktop and app GUIs have become more "simple", they've become
harder to use, because it is more difficult to differentiate which
content belongs to which window. Eventually the desktop will become a
completely blank screen, and there will be no window borders hindering
recognition of what belongs to what. Maybe it'll eventually look like
MS/IBM-DOS again, so all you see is the ">" prompt.

> The minimum requirements include a type of security chip - called a
> TPM - only installed on modern computers.

Oh, "modern", uh huh, a vague reference to avoid being specific.

> No thanks, I have a perfectly good PC here, why would I want to purchase
> a new one just to run W11?

Check if your BIOS has the Intel PTT (Platform Trust Technology)
setting. If available and enabled, the firmware emulates a TPM chip.
That is, the option is a substitute for the chip. That's if you have
any interest in being compatible with Windows 11. I'm considering
leaving the option disabled as it prevent Windows Update from
"accidentally" pushing Windows 11 onto my computer (remember those folks
that wailed they got forced to Windows 10 when they didn't want it?).

"Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:sjk3h5$8lf$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58795119
>
> "Windows 11 launches with redesigned start menu
>
> Windows 11, the latest version of Microsoft's computer operating system,
> launches worldwide on Tuesday as a free upgrade for Windows 10 users.
>
> Windows chief product officer Panos Panay, told the BBC the latest version
> was built to be "clean and fresh and simpler" for the user.
>
> He promised that the new operating system would not be an "extreme
> departure" from what people know.
>
> And even the least tech-savvy users can upgrade easily, he added.
>
> [...]
>
> The minimum requirements include a type of security chip - called a TPM -
> only installed on modern computers.
>
> "If your device does not meet these requirements, you may not be able to
> install Windows 11 on your device and might want to consider purchasing a
> new PC," Microsoft says."
>
> No thanks, I have a perfectly good PC here, why would I want to purchase a
> new one just to run W11?

I agree. A new version of Windows should not require a new PC. Why can't MS
remove the TPM requirement - in what way does it benefit the user?

I'm still on Windows 7 for my main PC. I use it so much that the disruption
while I upgraded it to Win 10 (and then found that some software no longer
worked) would be intolerable - especially the fact that for reasons known
only to MS, each time you upgrade (XP to Vista to 7 to 10) you need a
*different* email/new client (Outlook Express, Windows Mail, Windows Live
Mail, that f*ing tool (*) the Mail app, respectively), and can't use an
older version on a newer Windows. Thunderbird is an option, but I've found
that its newsreader capabilities are unreliable - it is inclined not to show
postings that show up on Windows Live Mail, or else it only shows them many
hours later, even though both programs use the same news server.

For a new PC (eg my new laptop) Windows 10 is fine, once I customised it to
look more like Windows 7 UI (W7-like start menu, using Classic Shell;
quick-launch area on taskbar; turn off merging of multiple instances of the
same app into a single taskbar icon; turn off Cortana **) to make it usable.
But I wouldn't risk upgrading a PC from one version of Windows to another,
as opposed to a fresh installation - I've seen that go wrong too many times.

What does it take to get MS to stick to the same UI and only upgrade what's
under the bonnet, so you don't have to get used to a new UI? Or at least,
offer a per-user choice on a Win 10 PC: "Win 10 dumbed-down tablet-like" or
"Windows 7 and older, with additions only but no changes or removals of
features".

(*) In all senses of the word "tool" ;-)

(**) They can't even spell "Cortina" correctly ;-)

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 14:51:11 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> No thanks, I have a perfectly good PC here, why would I want to purchase
>> a new one just to run W11?
>
> Check if your BIOS has the Intel PTT (Platform Trust Technology)
> setting. If available and enabled, the firmware emulates a TPM chip.
> That is, the option is a substitute for the chip. That's if you have
> any interest in being compatible with Windows 11. I'm considering
> leaving the option disabled as it prevent Windows Update from
> "accidentally" pushing Windows 11 onto my computer (remember those folks
> that wailed they got forced to Windows 10 when they didn't want it?).

Assuming that the TPM version supported by the firmware is high enough...
-_-

JJ <jj4public@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> No thanks, I have a perfectly good PC here, why would I want to
>>> purchase a new one just to run W11?
>>
>> Check if your BIOS has the Intel PTT (Platform Trust Technology)
>> setting. If available and enabled, the firmware emulates a TPM
>> chip. That is, the option is a substitute for the chip. That's if
>> you have any interest in being compatible with Windows 11. I'm
>> considering leaving the option disabled as it prevent Windows Update
>> from "accidentally" pushing Windows 11 onto my computer (remember
>> those folks that wailed they got forced to Windows 10 when they
>> didn't want it?).
>
> Assuming that the TPM version supported by the firmware is high
> enough...

The requirement is TPM 2.0 which came out in 2014. Implementation
(adding the code to BIOS/UEFI firmware) might've taken a couple more
years. In another thread, someone said the Haswell architecture doesn't
support PTT, yet the following article mentions Haswell as supported
(but qualifies that as "Intel Haswell ULT multichip packages").

https://www.onlogic.com/company/io-hub/intel-platform-trust-technology-ptt-tpm-for-the-masses/

Jive might have the PTT option in BIOS, or there might be a firmware
update for his mobo that adds it. Jive never mentioned which CPU he
has. PTT is an Intel technology, so maybe it's unavailable for a mobo
designed for an AMD CPU.

Running tpm.msc (available in Win10) will tell you if TPM/PTT is
detected or not. For PTT, you'd have to first enable it in the BIOS, if
the option and firmware code were available for your mobo.

From what I've read, it's the dynamic update that fails on the TPM
check. Creating the ISO and doing a fresh install might let you bypass
the TPM check.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/tpm/initialize-and-configure-ownership-of-the-tpm

That mentions some troubleshooting for TPM, but I didn't delve into it
since I don't yet want Windows 11, and don't care about going into BIOS
to enable PTT.

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:42:08 +0100, NY wrote:

> I agree. A new version of Windows should not require a new PC. Why can't MS
> remove the TPM requirement - in what way does it benefit the user?

https://www.pcworld.com/article/394775/why-windows-11-requires-a-tpm-for-your-pc.html

On 10/7/2021 7:36 AM, mechanic wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:42:08 +0100, NY wrote:
>
>> I agree. A new version of Windows should not require a new PC. Why can't MS
>> remove the TPM requirement - in what way does it benefit the user?
>
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/394775/why-windows-11-requires-a-tpm-for-your-pc.html
>

That's not the real reason why the TPM is there.

The real reason is to support encryption of C: .

Which could make data recovery difficult or impossible,
depending on your level of preparedness. The key is
stored against your MSA, on a Microsoft server, and
it behooves a "victim" to be storing that key where
they can access it. Like "tape it to the top of the hard drive".

You see, the thing is, when a TPM is detected, the Microsoft
code has been present for some time. But, because a lot of
machines did not have a TPM, the auto-encryption code could
not leap into action and mess with your hard drive.

Machines meeting the new hardware requirements, why,
they will be perfect candidates for that code. While we
were warned this would happen to Win11 Home users (or Win10 Home
users), it appears more SKUs than that are involved.

A savvy individual, will take the hard drive out of the Win11
machine, over to their "backward" Win7 machine, and scan with
HxD and see if it's encrypted. If you detect encryption (one way or
another), it's not the end of the world, but it's work we should
not be doing, to undo that. The worst case, is a bozo who loses
access to their MSA. That's why I have to give this cheery warning
- even if I don't have the details right, at least verify for yourself
that your C: is not encrypted. It's a risk factor. The same people
who don't do backups, are the people who will be told by a
Data Recovery company that "we can't do anything for you sir, this
drive is encrypted". Error multiplication on an encrypted drive,
would make a mess. This is why I cannot approve of encryption - real
drives fail, and lots of people use older drives that are unfit
for this purpose.

The other interesting development is, if your motherboard fails
and you replace it, that has a different TPM, and then you can't
unlock your hard drive. You'd better have that recovery key
handy while your hair is falling out...

It's really needless torture for customers. Like being kidnapped
on your way to the grocery store. This shit should be Opt-In, not
"Opt-Out, over and over again".

Beware, Oh TPM owner.

Paul

On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 10:32:40 -0400, Paul wrote:

> On 10/7/2021 7:36 AM, mechanic wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:42:08 +0100, NY wrote:
>>
>>> I agree. A new version of Windows should not require a new PC. Why can't MS
>>> remove the TPM requirement - in what way does it benefit the user?
>>
>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/394775/why-windows-11-requires-a-tpm-for-your-pc.html
>>
>
> That's not the real reason why the TPM is there.
>
> The real reason is to support encryption of C: ....

Pluton will save us! The TPM will be secure!
https://www.pcworld.com/article/393727/microsoft-pluton-will-build-xbox-security-into-amd-intel-qualcomm-cpus.html

On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 at 00:22:09, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>Running tpm.msc (available in Win10) will tell you if TPM/PTT is

I see to have it in my W7-32 Home Premium.

>detected or not. For PTT, you'd have to first enable it in the BIOS, if
>the option and firmware code were available for your mobo.

I was surprised to find I have it, albeit only 1.2 ("Manufacturer Name:
IFX") in this PC, since I thought it was 10-11 years old (i3, M 380).
It's apparently off and unowned - which suits me fine.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I admire you British: when things get tough, you reach for humour. Not
firearms. - Sigourney (Susan) Weaver, RT 2017/11/4-10

On 10/7/2021 8:25 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 at 00:22:09, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
>> Running tpm.msc (available in Win10) will tell you if TPM/PTT is
>
> I see to have it in my W7-32 Home Premium.
>
>> detected or not.  For PTT, you'd have to first enable it in the BIOS, if
>> the option and firmware code were available for your mobo.
>
> I was surprised to find I have it, albeit only 1.2 ("Manufacturer Name: IFX") in this PC, since I thought it was 10-11 years old (i3, M 380). It's apparently off and unowned - which suits me fine.
> []

That would be an Infineon chip. It could be LPC bus
or SPI bus, but I think LPC bus came first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infineon_Technologies

Paul

Paul graced us with on 10/7/2021 7:32 AM:
> On 10/7/2021 7:36 AM, mechanic wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:42:08 +0100, NY wrote:
>>
>>> I agree. A new version of Windows should not require a new PC. Why
>>> can't MS
>>> remove the TPM requirement - in what way does it benefit the user?
>>
>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/394775/why-windows-11-requires-a-tpm-for-your-pc.html
>>
>>
>
> That's not the real reason why the TPM is there.
>
> The real reason is to support encryption of C: .
>
> Which could make data recovery difficult or impossible,
> depending on your level of preparedness. The key is
> stored against your MSA, on a Microsoft server, and
> it behooves a "victim" to be storing that key where
> they can access it. Like "tape it to the top of the hard drive".
>
> You see, the thing is, when a TPM is detected, the Microsoft
> code has been present for some time. But, because a lot of
> machines did not have a TPM, the auto-encryption code could
> not leap into action and mess with your hard drive.
>
> Machines meeting the new hardware requirements, why,
> they will be perfect candidates for that code. While we
> were warned this would happen to Win11 Home users (or Win10 Home
> users), it appears more SKUs than that are involved.
>
> A savvy individual, will take the hard drive out of the Win11
> machine, over to their "backward" Win7 machine, and scan with
> HxD and see if it's encrypted. If you detect encryption (one way or
> another), it's not the end of the world, but it's work we should
> not be doing, to undo that. The worst case, is a bozo who loses
> access to their MSA. That's why I have to give this cheery warning
> - even if I don't have the details right, at least verify for yourself
> that your C: is not encrypted. It's a risk factor. The same people
> who don't do backups, are the people who will be told by a
> Data Recovery company that "we can't do anything for you sir, this
> drive is encrypted". Error multiplication on an encrypted drive,
> would make a mess. This is why I cannot approve of encryption - real
> drives fail, and lots of people use older drives that are unfit
> for this purpose.
>
> The other interesting development is, if your motherboard fails
> and you replace it, that has a different TPM, and then you can't
> unlock your hard drive. You'd better have that recovery key
> handy while your hair is falling out...
>
> It's really needless torture for customers. Like being kidnapped
> on your way to the grocery store. This shit should be Opt-In, not
> "Opt-Out, over and over again".
>
> Beware, Oh TPM owner.
>
+1

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

On 10/6/2021 8:07 AM, Java Jive wrote:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58795119
>
> "Windows 11 launches with redesigned start menu
>
> Windows 11, the latest version of Microsoft's computer operating system,
> launches worldwide on Tuesday as a free upgrade for Windows 10 users.
>
> Windows chief product officer Panos Panay, told the BBC the latest
> version was built to be "clean and fresh and simpler" for the user.

No thanks, I'll stick with W7. Apparently, I have a TPM 1.2 chip (Type:
tmp.msc into RUN), and you need a 2.0 chip to run W11.. I wouldn't
upgrade, even if it allowed me.

On Fri, 08 Oct 2021 19:04:32 -0400, Michael Trew <michael.trew@att.net>
wrote:

>On 10/6/2021 8:07 AM, Java Jive wrote:
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58795119
>>
>> "Windows 11 launches with redesigned start menu
>>
>> Windows 11, the latest version of Microsoft's computer operating system,
>> launches worldwide on Tuesday as a free upgrade for Windows 10 users.
>>
>> Windows chief product officer Panos Panay, told the BBC the latest
>> version was built to be "clean and fresh and simpler" for the user.
>
>No thanks, I'll stick with W7. Apparently, I have a TPM 1.2 chip (Type:
>tmp.msc into RUN), and you need a 2.0 chip to run W11.. I wouldn't
>upgrade, even if it allowed me.

Other articles are saying that TPM 2.0 is a soft limit. The actual hard
limit is apparently 1.2. You have to flip a Registry key to bypass the soft
2.0 requirement. There are other Registry keys to bypass the soft limits on
RAM and CPU.

--

Char Jackson