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computers / comp.misc / Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

SubjectAuthor
* GNOME: rethinking window managementRetrograde
+* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementThe Real Bev
|`* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementRich
| `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementBozo User
|  `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementThe Real Bev
|   `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementMike Spencer
|    `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementBozo User
|     +- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementMike Spencer
|     `- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementscott
+* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementAdrian Caspersz
|`* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementThe Real Bev
| `- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementMike Spencer
+* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementRichmond
|+- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementMatthew Ernisse
|`* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementBlue-Maned_Hawk
| `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementTheo
|  `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementSpiros Bousbouras
|   +* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementAndy Burns
|   |`* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementThe Real Bev
|   | +- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementJohn
|   | `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementJerry Peters
|   |  `- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementThe Real Bev
|   `- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementTheo
+* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementTheo
|+* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementJoerg Mertens
||`- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementJohn
|`* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementJavier
| `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementTheo
|  +- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementJavier
|  `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementRich
|   `- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementJavier
+- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementBlue-Maned_Hawk
`* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementSpiros Bousbouras
 `* Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementSpiros Bousbouras
  `- Re: GNOME: rethinking window managementBlue-Maned_Hawk

Pages:12
GNOME: rethinking window management

<ua87nj$dlt$1@solani.org>

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From: fun...@amongus.com.invalid (Retrograde)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 11:59:47 -0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <ua87nj$dlt$1@solani.org>
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 by: Retrograde - Mon, 31 Jul 2023 11:59 UTC

From the «did not ask for this» department:
Feed: OSnews
Title: GNOME: rethinking window management
Author: Thom Holwerda
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 16:56:30 -0400
Link: https://www.osnews.com/story/136522/gnome-rethinking-window-management/

While most of us are used to this system and its quirks, that doesn’t mean
it’s without problems. This is especially apparent when you do user research
with people who are new to computing, including children and older people.
Manually placing and sizing windows can be fiddly work, and requires close
attention and precise motor control. It’s also what we jokingly refer to as
shit work[1]: it is work that the user has to do, which is generated by the
system itself, and has no other purpose.

Most of the time you don’t care about exact window sizes and positions and
just want to see the windows that you need for your current task. Often that’s
just a single, maximized window. Sometimes it’s two or three windows next to
each other. It’s incredibly rare that you need a dozen different overlapping
windows. Yet this is what you end up with by default today, when you simply
use the computer, opening apps as you need them. Messy is the default, and
it’s up to you to clean it up[2].

There are a lot of interesting ideas in what GNOME is working on to address
these issues, and it includes a lot of new thinking and new approaches to
windowing. I have a lot of reservations, though.

I do not like it when windows do something out of their own volition. A window
should be where I put it, and manipulating one window should not make any
changes to the shape or position of other windows, unless I’m specifically
asking the window manager to do so (e.g. using the side-by-side snap feature,
which I never do). There’s nothing I hate more than my UI deciding what’s best
for me. Windows should be where I put them – until I explicitly instruct my
window manager to put them somewhere else.

I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows. I just don’t
get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my windows ever go fullscreen,
whether it be on a small 13″ laptop display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I
find fullscreen claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You just end up
with tons of wasted space. Designing a UI with fullscreen as a corner stone
absolutely baffles me.

As such, some of these ideas for GNOME worry me a tiny bit, since they go
against some of the core tenets I hold about my UI. I’ll see how it works out
when it ships, but for now, I’m cautiously worried.

Links:
[1]: https://zachholman.com/posts/shit-work (link)
[2]: https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2023/07/26/rethinking-window-management/ (link)

--
Emojis are for wimps.

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

<ua8j9o$3a882$1@dont-email.me>

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From: bashley...@gmail.com (The Real Bev)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 08:17:11 -0700
Organization: None, as usual
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 by: The Real Bev - Mon, 31 Jul 2023 15:17 UTC

On 7/31/23 4:59 AM, Retrograde wrote:
> From the «did not ask for this» department:
> Feed: OSnews
> Title: GNOME: rethinking window management
> Author: Thom Holwerda
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 16:56:30 -0400
> Link: https://www.osnews.com/story/136522/gnome-rethinking-window-management/
>
>
> While most of us are used to this system and its quirks, that doesn’t mean
> it’s without problems. This is especially apparent when you do user research
> with people who are new to computing, including children and older people.
> Manually placing and sizing windows can be fiddly work, and requires close
> attention and precise motor control. It’s also what we jokingly refer to as
> shit work[1]: it is work that the user has to do, which is generated by the
> system itself, and has no other purpose.
>
> Most of the time you don’t care about exact window sizes and positions and
> just want to see the windows that you need for your current task. Often that’s
> just a single, maximized window. Sometimes it’s two or three windows next to
> each other. It’s incredibly rare that you need a dozen different overlapping
> windows. Yet this is what you end up with by default today, when you simply
> use the computer, opening apps as you need them. Messy is the default, and
> it’s up to you to clean it up[2].
>
> There are a lot of interesting ideas in what GNOME is working on to address
> these issues, and it includes a lot of new thinking and new approaches to
> windowing. I have a lot of reservations, though.
>
> I do not like it when windows do something out of their own volition. A window
> should be where I put it, and manipulating one window should not make any
> changes to the shape or position of other windows, unless I’m specifically
> asking the window manager to do so (e.g. using the side-by-side snap feature,
> which I never do). There’s nothing I hate more than my UI deciding what’s best
> for me. Windows should be where I put them – until I explicitly instruct my
> window manager to put them somewhere else.
>
> I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows. I just don’t
> get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my windows ever go fullscreen,
> whether it be on a small 13″ laptop display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I
> find fullscreen claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
> virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You just end up
> with tons of wasted space. Designing a UI with fullscreen as a corner stone
> absolutely baffles me.
>
> As such, some of these ideas for GNOME worry me a tiny bit, since they go
> against some of the core tenets I hold about my UI. I’ll see how it works out
> when it ships, but for now, I’m cautiously worried.

Still using fvwm95, which was the most completely configured WM when I
started using slackware. I have now set it so that a left click on any
edge or the title bar moves a window; a right click on any edge or
corner resizes it. I've also done stuff with mouse focus/raise to make
MY life easier. All this stuff should be user-settable. Period.

Full-screen is a nuisance, especially when dealing with occasional
Windows use. Really tired of having to beat things into submission :-(

> Links:
> [1]: https://zachholman.com/posts/shit-work (link)
> [2]: https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2023/07/26/rethinking-window-management/ (link)

--
Cheers, Bev
"Don't sweat it -- it's not real life. It's only ones and zeroes."
-- spaf (1988?)

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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From: ric...@example.invalid (Rich)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:10:41 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Rich - Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:10 UTC

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/31/23 4:59 AM, Retrograde wrote:
>> I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows. I
>> just don’t get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my
>> windows ever go fullscreen, whether it be on a small 13″ laptop
>> display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I find fullscreen
>> claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
>> virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You
>> just end up with tons of wasted space. Designing a UI with
>> fullscreen as a corner stone absolutely baffles me.
>>
>> As such, some of these ideas for GNOME worry me a tiny bit, since
>> they go against some of the core tenets I hold about my UI. I’ll
>> see how it works out when it ships, but for now, I’m cautiously
>> worried.
>
> Still using fvwm95, which was the most completely configured WM when
> I started using slackware. I have now set it so that a left click on
> any edge or the title bar moves a window; a right click on any edge
> or corner resizes it. I've also done stuff with mouse focus/raise to
> make MY life easier. All this stuff should be user-settable.
> Period.

Fvwm2 here, and I've done similar configs so I can move/resize any
window from any edge or corner. But perhaps the most useful config
tweak I added to fvwm2 was a "click to lower window" command. Most
UI's provide way to "raise" windows, but seem to omit the inverse
operation of "lower window - revealing what is underneath". Being able
to push a window on top down to the bottom turns out to be very useful.

> Full-screen is a nuisance, especially when dealing with occasional
> Windows use. Really tired of having to beat things into submission :-(

If you ever get a chance to observe very non-technical users using a
computer, you'll often also find them using exclusively full screen
windows for everything -- even when it makes no sense. Full screen
windows are much more common than you'd think, because there are more
non-techical users than there are of us. And for tablets/phones,
everything is almost exclusively "full screen windows" (although that
often makes more sense there given the smaller display surface area in
those devices).

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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From: ant...@disroot.org (Bozo User)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 20:12:36 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Bozo User - Mon, 31 Jul 2023 20:12 UTC

On 2023-07-31, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 7/31/23 4:59 AM, Retrograde wrote:
>>> I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows. I
>>> just don’t get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my
>>> windows ever go fullscreen, whether it be on a small 13″ laptop
>>> display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I find fullscreen
>>> claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
>>> virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You
>>> just end up with tons of wasted space. Designing a UI with
>>> fullscreen as a corner stone absolutely baffles me.
>>>
>>> As such, some of these ideas for GNOME worry me a tiny bit, since
>>> they go against some of the core tenets I hold about my UI. I’ll
>>> see how it works out when it ships, but for now, I’m cautiously
>>> worried.
>>
>> Still using fvwm95, which was the most completely configured WM when
>> I started using slackware. I have now set it so that a left click on
>> any edge or the title bar moves a window; a right click on any edge
>> or corner resizes it. I've also done stuff with mouse focus/raise to
>> make MY life easier. All this stuff should be user-settable.
>> Period.
>
> Fvwm2 here, and I've done similar configs so I can move/resize any
> window from any edge or corner. But perhaps the most useful config
> tweak I added to fvwm2 was a "click to lower window" command. Most
> UI's provide way to "raise" windows, but seem to omit the inverse
> operation of "lower window - revealing what is underneath". Being able
> to push a window on top down to the bottom turns out to be very useful.
>
>> Full-screen is a nuisance, especially when dealing with occasional
>> Windows use. Really tired of having to beat things into submission :-(
>
> If you ever get a chance to observe very non-technical users using a
> computer, you'll often also find them using exclusively full screen
> windows for everything -- even when it makes no sense. Full screen
> windows are much more common than you'd think, because there are more
> non-techical users than there are of us. And for tablets/phones,
> everything is almost exclusively "full screen windows" (although that
> often makes more sense there given the smaller display surface area in
> those devices).
>

Cwm user here. One you have tmux, virtual desktops as tag, xclock
and a bunch of cli, tui and light X tools such as MuPDF working,
everything else doesn't matter.

Zukitre and Tango make the perfect GTK theme for cwm with 2px border.
The netbook (Atom N270, 1GB) runs fast and quiet.
Mail is managed by isync (mbsync), msmtp and mutt in a batch basis.
Ditto with RSS and NNTP.

I have a script with downloads the most recent feeds, podcasts,
and lastly sents mail and news posts from a queue.

This way I can answer to any mail/news posts offline.

Also, I have offpunk to read gemini/gopher sites offline too,
with the add, tour, and sync commands from within offpunk.
But offpunk --sync works fine, too.

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

<ua9cdh$3da4h$1@dont-email.me>

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From: bashley...@gmail.com (The Real Bev)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 15:25:51 -0700
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 by: The Real Bev - Mon, 31 Jul 2023 22:25 UTC

On 7/31/23 1:12 PM, Bozo User wrote:
> On 2023-07-31, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 7/31/23 4:59 AM, Retrograde wrote:
>>>> I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows. I
>>>> just don’t get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my
>>>> windows ever go fullscreen, whether it be on a small 13″ laptop
>>>> display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I find fullscreen
>>>> claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
>>>> virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You
>>>> just end up with tons of wasted space. Designing a UI with
>>>> fullscreen as a corner stone absolutely baffles me.
>>>>
>>>> As such, some of these ideas for GNOME worry me a tiny bit, since
>>>> they go against some of the core tenets I hold about my UI. I’ll
>>>> see how it works out when it ships, but for now, I’m cautiously
>>>> worried.
>>>
>>> Still using fvwm95, which was the most completely configured WM when
>>> I started using slackware. I have now set it so that a left click on
>>> any edge or the title bar moves a window; a right click on any edge
>>> or corner resizes it. I've also done stuff with mouse focus/raise to
>>> make MY life easier. All this stuff should be user-settable.
>>> Period.

And I have THICK borders; I'm really clumsy. You don't want to see me
shoot or hear me play the violin :-)

>> Fvwm2 here, and I've done similar configs so I can move/resize any
>> window from any edge or corner. But perhaps the most useful config
>> tweak I added to fvwm2 was a "click to lower window" command. Most
>> UI's provide way to "raise" windows, but seem to omit the inverse
>> operation of "lower window - revealing what is underneath". Being able
>> to push a window on top down to the bottom turns out to be very useful.

I just move the mouse to a visible part of a window (I always leave bits
out for this purpose) and it raises and focuses. Yes, I AM lazy!

>>> Full-screen is a nuisance, especially when dealing with occasional
>>> Windows use. Really tired of having to beat things into submission :-(
>>
>> If you ever get a chance to observe very non-technical users using a
>> computer, you'll often also find them using exclusively full screen
>> windows for everything -- even when it makes no sense. Full screen
>> windows are much more common than you'd think, because there are more
>> non-techical users than there are of us. And for tablets/phones,
>> everything is almost exclusively "full screen windows" (although that
>> often makes more sense there given the smaller display surface area in
>> those devices).

Thunderbird is almost full screen. So are firefox and (when forced)
chrome. I have 4 screens/desktops (2x2) that I can move into just by
moving the mouse to the appropriate edge -- I could have more, but
moving among them quickly gets tricky. Other stuff I have in
overlapping windows so I can easily get at what I want without clicking.
Son has a 45" monitor with a bunch of xterms, firefox, and a number of
apps all visible. He kept urging me to get a bigger (than 27") monitor,
so I tried a 32" and hated it. Too much head-swiveling, and bigger text
so I can sit farther away negates the larger monitor..

> Cwm user here. One you have tmux, virtual desktops as tag, xclock
> and a bunch of cli, tui and light X tools such as MuPDF working,
> everything else doesn't matter.
>
> Zukitre and Tango make the perfect GTK theme for cwm with 2px border.
> The netbook (Atom N270, 1GB) runs fast and quiet.
> Mail is managed by isync (mbsync), msmtp and mutt in a batch basis.
> Ditto with RSS and NNTP.
>
> I have a script with downloads the most recent feeds, podcasts,
> and lastly sents mail and news posts from a queue.
>
> This way I can answer to any mail/news posts offline.
>
> Also, I have offpunk to read gemini/gopher sites offline too,
> with the add, tour, and sync commands from within offpunk.
> But offpunk --sync works fine, too.

Gopher? Remember when finger worked?

What we want to do is make the computer work the way WE want, which
involves an amazing amount of work. There's a reason I don't want to
update to a newer or better OS -- what I have works and I've been
tweaking the important parts since 1995.

But I know some people who don't even know there are
options/settings/preferences. Out of the box is good enough. Go figure.

--
Cheers, Bev
"Truly, our society's bellyaching sissies are in an elite category.
They are like the Navy SEALS of offendedness. They demonstrate
unmatched skill, dedication, and dexterity in imagining new and
exciting ways to be insulted." --Matt Walsh

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

<873513s2on.fsf@enoch.nodomain.nowhere>

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From: mds...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere (Mike Spencer)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: 01 Aug 2023 03:21:28 -0300
Organization: Bridgewater Institute for Advanced Study - Blacksmith Shop
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 by: Mike Spencer - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 06:21 UTC

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> writes:

> But I know some people who don't even know there are
> options/settings/preferences. Out of the box is good enough. Go
> figure.

I use twm, full screen only for movies. I've been penguinating since
1999, used Unix intermittently for a decade before that. I'm no pro
code wrangler but I do a lot of tweaking, scripts, not afraid of a
compiler etc.

And I just got my very first cell phone. I hate the touch-screen UI
and the apps (I have to learn to say "apps":-) for which there are no
manpages that explain just exactly what they do, how to use them or,
for that matter, much of anything at all. I knew I was going to hate
it.

The only bright side so far is that after a few days, my hatred of the
UI hasn't increased exponentially.

It does remind me just how annoying, not to say intimidating,
computers and the internet can be for folks (especially those of my
age bracket) who are novices. Thirty years ago I was telling all my
friends they should find a way to do email and they replied, "Oooohhh,
too geeky. I hate computers!" Now those same people say, "What? You
don't do Facebook? Don't do Twitter? You don't have stuff on U-Tube?
You don't even have a cell phone? Whaddya, some kind of Luddite?"

Well, now I at least have a cell phone.

Bad enough that Android doesn't do USB storage and ya gots to muck
with mtp ware to address a protocol that doesn't really grok "files"
to begin with; they sold me a defective cable so I spent a couple of
hours in the touch-screen swamp trying to make it work before I
determined that. Feh.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
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 by: Adrian Caspersz - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 08:55 UTC

On 7/31/23 12:59, Retrograde wrote:

>
> I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows. I just don’t
> get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my windows ever go fullscreen,
> whether it be on a small 13″ laptop display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I
> find fullscreen claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
> virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You just end up
> with tons of wasted space. Designing a UI with fullscreen as a corner stone
> absolutely baffles me.

It's what non-IT people are used to on a mobile phone, and even before
that - what non-IT (mainly elderly) people do when first presented a
windowing operating system, they do not or understand window features
such as minimise/maximise/move/dock etc....

The view of their favourite application (email) is king and they do not
like distractions.

Try explaining it how GUI multitasking and app switching works ....
again and... again and... etc..

I give up.

Once a long ago, folks used to be able to switch apps by pressing
labelled keys on the keyboard, like folks changed TV channels on their
remote control.

Some items of IT should go back to that, following with the numbered
choice menus beloved of DOS.

--
Adrian C

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From: dnomh...@gmx.com (Richmond)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 12:32:40 +0100
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 by: Richmond - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 11:32 UTC

I always use maximised windows. And I use alt-tab and alt-esc to switch
between them. I wish they would switch between browser tabs too. It
drives me nuts when alt-tab does not take me to the last tab I was
looking at.

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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From: mat...@going-flying.com (Matthew Ernisse)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 12:26:53 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Matthew Ernisse - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 12:26 UTC

On Tue, 01 Aug 2023 12:32:40 +0100, Richmond wrote:
> I always use maximised windows. And I use alt-tab and alt-esc to switch
> between them. I wish they would switch between browser tabs too. It
> drives me nuts when alt-tab does not take me to the last tab I was
> looking at.

At least on macOS Ctrl-Tab and Ctrl-Shift-Tab cycle through tabs in
Safari and Firefox. It doesn't seem to be labelled anywhere in Firefox
but it works.

--
"The avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote."
--Kosh

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: 01 Aug 2023 14:26:15 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 13:26 UTC

Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:
> From the «did not ask for this» department:
> Feed: OSnews
> Title: GNOME: rethinking window management
> Author: Thom Holwerda
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 16:56:30 -0400
> Link: https://www.osnews.com/story/136522/gnome-rethinking-window-management/

I only got as far as reading the 'GNOME: rethinking' part of the title
before despairing, since GNOME's ideas of 'rethinking' are often terrible
(hello hamburger menus in titlebars, which were supposedly devised to
work around a deficiency in Wayland - since fixed, but we're stuck with them).

But they do have some valid points. I don't want to spend time manipulating
windows, because that's useless effort, especially on a touchpad where
dragging isn't so comfortable.

I dislike full screen windows, especially on larger monitors, but OTOH
window management on smaller laptop screens is often not very pleasant.

I also hate app-centric window management (where you bring all the windows
from one app to the front), since I often have multiple 'tasks' in progress
and each task uses several apps, so foregrounding (say) all the browser
windows or PDFs makes no sense. MacOS's strong app-centricity is something
that makes it particularly annoying for me.

Also the Alt-Tab/Alt-backtick dance often manages to select the
wrong window so I end up cycling through them multiple times. (Ubuntu's
dock has a special 'always show the wrong window' algorithm that somebody
must be very proud of)

So some means of saying 'the comfortable size of this window is ... to ...'
is a good start, and then maybe having a window manager help with that.

Basically I want window management to 'just work', but the only way I've
seen is a tiling window manager, which is awful once you go above a handful
of windows and even worse on a laptop screen.

So I'm always keen to watch developments in this area, even if I've never
found the sweet spot.

Theo

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
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 by: Joerg Mertens - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:12 UTC

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Basically I want window management to 'just work', but the only way
> I've seen is a tiling window manager, which is awful once you go above
> a handful of windows and even worse on a laptop screen.

I guess it depends on what you do and what software you are using. I've
gotten used to letting dwm manage the windows on my laptop. It's a
simple tiling window manager but you can also switch it to `floating
layout´, if you have an application which doesn't work well in tiling
mode.

I usually have one to five windows in one `tag´ (some kind of virtual
desktop), mostly emacs and xterm, plus things like mupdf or
firefox. dwm has nine tags, which is enough for my demands. I like that,
with the exception of firefox, I hardly ever have to use the
mouse. Emacs windows and xterms are created where I expect them (in the
master area) and I can immediately start typing. To switch between
windows or tags I can use keyboard shortcuts. It's not perfect but it
feels convenient.

I understand that tiling is not for everyone, but for some reason
dwm has become my favorite window manager, especially on small displays.

Regards

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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From: joh...@building-m.simplistic-anti-spam-measure.net (John)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
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 by: John - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:24 UTC

Joerg Mertens <joerg-mertens@t-online.de> writes:

> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>
>> Basically I want window management to 'just work', but the only way
>> I've seen is a tiling window manager, which is awful once you go above
>> a handful of windows and even worse on a laptop screen.
>
> I guess it depends on what you do and what software you are using. I've
> gotten used to letting dwm manage the windows on my laptop. It's a
> simple tiling window manager but you can also switch it to `floating
> layout´, if you have an application which doesn't work well in tiling
> mode.
>
> I usually have one to five windows in one `tag´ (some kind of virtual
> desktop), mostly emacs and xterm, plus things like mupdf or
> firefox. dwm has nine tags, which is enough for my demands. I like that,
> with the exception of firefox, I hardly ever have to use the
> mouse. Emacs windows and xterms are created where I expect them (in the
> master area) and I can immediately start typing. To switch between
> windows or tags I can use keyboard shortcuts. It's not perfect but it
> feels convenient.
>
> I understand that tiling is not for everyone, but for some reason
> dwm has become my favorite window manager, especially on small displays.
>
> Regards

Yes, I've found stumpwm to be a good fit for small screens for similar
reasons. I stick with stump for two reasons:

1. I like that you define your "frames" and then they stay the same
size, then windows are displayed in the frames.
2. I maintain the persistent belief that one of these days I'll get
around to hacking on it (it's Common Lisp so you can just attach to the
running WM and start making changes)

I've been using it for over a decade at this point. Also use it on my
desktop a lot, but I've just decided to give fvwm another shot -- it was
my go-to from ca 2002 to 2010 and it's one of the most
featureful/configurable things I've ever used, aside from Emacs.

If I'm not using stumpwm on a laptop, I'm a fan of w9wm. The only window
decoration is a couple pixels of border, which saves precious screen
space. It's definitely not for everybody, though.

john

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
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 by: Blue-Maned_Hawk - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 19:10 UTC

On 8/1/23 07:32, Richmond wrote:
> I always use maximised windows. And I use alt-tab and alt-esc to switch
> between them. I wish they would switch between browser tabs too. It
> drives me nuts when alt-tab does not take me to the last tab I was
> looking at.
​I've seen it suggested before that tabs and other sorts of multiplexing
should be exclusively in the domain of the windowing system, a sentiment
that over time i've found myself agreeing with more and more.
--
⚗︎ | /blu.mɛin.dʰak/ | shortens to "Hawk" | he/him/his/himself/Mr.
bluemanedhawk.github.io
Bitches stole my whole ass ␔🭖᷿᪳𝼗᷍⏧𒒫𐻾ࣛ↉�⃣ quoted-printable, can't
have shit in Thunderbird 😩

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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 by: Blue-Maned_Hawk - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 19:26 UTC

On 7/31/23 07:59, Retrograde wrote:
> <snip />
>
> Most of the time you don’t care about exact window sizes and positions and
> just want to see the windows that you need for your current task. Often that’s
> just a single, maximized window. Sometimes it’s two or three windows next to
> each other. It’s incredibly rare that you need a dozen different overlapping
> windows. Yet this is what you end up with by default today, when you simply
> use the computer, opening apps as you need them. Messy is the default, and
> it’s up to you to clean it up[2].
>
Isn't this, like. the entire thing virtual desktops were designed to
fix? To create a system where one could group windows based on the
task? (With that in mind, i _definitely_ prefer systems where one can
arbitrarily add new desktops instead of being restricted to a specific
set and having to go into the settings to change it.)
>
> <snip />
>
> I do not like it when windows do something out of their own volition. A window
> should be where I put it, and manipulating one window should not make any
> changes to the shape or position of other windows, unless I’m specifically
> asking the window manager to do so (e.g. using the side-by-side snap feature,
> which I never do). There’s nothing I hate more than my UI deciding what’s best
> for me. Windows should be where I put them – until I explicitly instruct my
> window manager to put them somewhere else.
>
While i think that this is generally true, i don't think that the
ability for windows to manipulate themselves should be completely
removed, because there are a few exceptional circumstances where it
genuinely _is_ useful.
> I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows. I just don’t
> get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my windows ever go fullscreen,
> whether it be on a small 13″ laptop display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I
> find fullscreen claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
> virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You just end up
> with tons of wasted space. Designing a UI with fullscreen as a corner stone
> absolutely baffles me.
>
Gotta be honest, i have no idea what this is referring to and i'm not
really sure what to make of it. I'll say that in my experience, i've
found my browser, termemu, and Thunderbird to always be fullscreen, any
games i play i always play in fullscreen, and most other things i just
keep at their original size. That being said, i don't know why i do this.
>
> <snip />
>
> -- > Emojis are for wimps.
​Emojis have consistently shown to fulfill a distinct and unique niche
in communication.
--
⚗︎ | /blu.mɛin.dʰak/ | shortens to "Hawk" | he/him/his/himself/Mr.
bluemanedhawk.github.io
Bitches stole my whole ass ␔🭖᷿᪳𝼗᷍⏧𒒫𐻾ࣛ↉�⃣ quoted-printable, can't
have shit in Thunderbird 😩

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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From: bashley...@gmail.com (The Real Bev)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 12:28:51 -0700
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 by: The Real Bev - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 19:28 UTC

On 8/1/23 1:55 AM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> On 7/31/23 12:59, Retrograde wrote:
>>
>> I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows. I just don’t
>> get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my windows ever go fullscreen,
>> whether it be on a small 13″ laptop display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I
>> find fullscreen claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
>> virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You just end up
>> with tons of wasted space. Designing a UI with fullscreen as a corner stone
>> absolutely baffles me.
>
> It's what non-IT people are used to on a mobile phone, and even before
> that - what non-IT (mainly elderly) people do when first presented a
> windowing operating system, they do not or understand window features
> such as minimise/maximise/move/dock etc....

I NEVER knew what "dock" meant and still don't. '"Tray" is another
mystery. "Folder" always seemed like a sop to the ignorant.
Fortunately I don't need to care.

My first 'windowsing' system was Win3; used DOS before that. The
windows provided a certain number of advantages along with a sprinkling
of annoyances, and 'fullscreen' was kind of essential given the
resolution of monitors back then. Still, a lot of stuff is just easier
to do with a CLI.

> The view of their favourite application (email) is king and they do not
> like distractions.
>
> Try explaining it how GUI multitasking and app switching works ....
> again and... again and... etc..

Nobody needs to know that beyond the fact that it's useful and works.

> I give up.
>
> Once a long ago, folks used to be able to switch apps by pressing
> labelled keys on the keyboard, like folks changed TV channels on their
> remote control.

Really? I never had that and I've used computers since maybe 1980.

> Some items of IT should go back to that, following with the numbered
> choice menus beloved of DOS.

I'd be happy if websites were no longer designed to be viewed on
something you can hold in your hand. Not likely to happen, though.

--
Cheers, Bev
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there
were no religion in it." - John Adams

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From: mds...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere (Mike Spencer)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: 01 Aug 2023 16:39:43 -0300
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 by: Mike Spencer - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 19:39 UTC

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> writes:

> I'd be happy if websites were no longer designed to be viewed on=20
> something you can hold in your hand. Not likely to happen, though.

A few web sites appear to infer that I'm using a phone because my
IP address is in a block assigned to cellular stuff by my ISP. But I
have a SIM card in a gateway device to which my computers ar attached.

Selecting No Style in the browser usually fixes it.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 20:49:27 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Tue, 1 Aug 2023 20:49 UTC

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 11:59:47 -0000 (UTC)
Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:
> From the «did not ask for this» department:
> Feed: OSnews
> Title: GNOME: rethinking window management
> Author: Thom Holwerda
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 16:56:30 -0400
> Link: https://www.osnews.com/story/136522/gnome-rethinking-window-management/

[...]

> I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows.

There is no obsession , just preference.

> I just don’t
> get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my windows ever go fullscreen,
> whether it be on a small 13″ laptop display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I
> find fullscreen claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
> virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You just end up
> with tons of wasted space.

My windows are full screen almost all the time. I use the ratpoison window
manager which adds no decorations to windows , no buttons , 1 pixel borders
(configurable) so what you see is just what the application displays which is
how I want it.

As for wasted space , I can use all the vertical space I can get. For
horizontal space , if the text I'm seeing doesn't have enough columns , the
horizontal space corresponding to 20 columns at most may not get used but I
don't have anything else useful I can display in that space. If one has a
wide enough monitor and small enough fonts that they can put 2 windows next
to each other with at least 80 columns each , this might be useful. But even
in that scenario , if I'm using vim , I would prefer for vim to occupy the
whole screen and do its own internal windows separation.

--
I agree that the abstract is not very exciting -- it is practically
stodgy. I was hoping you would know how to give it some oomph, some
sparkle. If not, we'll just send it out as is and try to sparkle up
the paper if it is accepted.
Guy Steele
http://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/msg05822.html

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 11:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 11:14 UTC

Once upon a time
Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 11:59:47 -0000 (UTC)
> Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:
> > From the «did not ask for this» department:
> > Feed: OSnews
> > Title: GNOME: rethinking window management
> > Author: Thom Holwerda
> > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 16:56:30 -0400
> > Link: https://www.osnews.com/story/136522/gnome-rethinking-window-management/
>
> [...]
>
> > I also do not understand this obsession with fullscreen windows.
>
> There is no obsession , just preference.
>
> > I just don’t
> > get it. Unless it’s a video or a game, none of my windows ever go fullscreen,
> > whether it be on a small 13″ laptop display, or on my 28″ 4K desktop monitor. I
> > find fullscreen claustrophobic, and it almost never makes any sense anyway since
> > virtually no application actually makes use of all that space. You just end up
> > with tons of wasted space.

I note also that if one opens multiple windows just so there isn't
wasted space on their monitor , the real waste is having a monitor
which is too large for their needs !

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: 02 Aug 2023 13:40:49 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 12:40 UTC

Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/1/23 07:32, Richmond wrote:
> > I always use maximised windows. And I use alt-tab and alt-esc to switch^M
> > between them. I wish they would switch between browser tabs too. It
> > drives me nuts when alt-tab does not take me to the last tab I was
> > looking at.
>
> I've seen it suggested before that tabs and other sorts of multiplexing
> should be exclusively in the domain of the windowing system, a sentiment
> that over time i've found myself agreeing with more and more.

I'm in two minds about that. First it would be nice to have the ability to
join windows from different apps into a single tab group. So you there are
no artificial boundaries of being in a particular app, you just have a
collection of tabs for a particular task.

The flip side is that putting browser tabs into your task switcher (as
Android can do) is utterly un-scalable when you have a lot of browser tabs.
At the moment I have (checks) 398 tabs in a Firefox window, and that would
completely overwhelm any kind of Alt-Tab mechanism.

So I think it would be nice to have both: in-app tabs (as we currently
have), but the ability to tear off tabs and join them with tabs from other
apps.

Somebody recently made an app to do the latter for RISC OS, which does
almost exactly what I've been wanting for years. Demo video here shows the
concept nicely:
https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/1/topics/17071?page=1

Theo

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Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 13:43 UTC

On 02 Aug 2023 13:40:49 +0100 (BST)
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> The flip side is that putting browser tabs into your task switcher (as
> Android can do) is utterly un-scalable when you have a lot of browser tabs.
> At the moment I have (checks) 398 tabs in a Firefox window, and that would
> completely overwhelm any kind of Alt-Tab mechanism.

Wow. How do you keep track of them ? I mean how do you decide which tab you
want to go to and how do you switch to it ? And how much memory does Firefox
use with that many tabs ?

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Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
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 by: Blue-Maned_Hawk - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 13:56 UTC

On 8/2/23 07:14, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> I note also that if one opens multiple windows just so there isn't
> wasted space on their monitor , the real waste is having a monitor
> which is too large for their needs !
​480p30@4:3 should be enough for anybody.
--
⚗︎ | /blu.mɛin.dʰak/ | shortens to "Hawk" | he/him/his/himself/Mr.
bluemanedhawk.github.io
Bitches stole my whole ass ␔🭖᷿᪳𝼗᷍⏧𒒫𐻾ࣛ↉�⃣ quoted-printable, can't
have shit in Thunderbird 😩

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Newsgroups: comp.misc
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 13:58 UTC

Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

> Theo wrote:
>
>> At the moment I have (checks) 398 tabs
>
> Wow. How do you keep track of them ? I mean how do you decide which tab you
> want to go to and how do you switch to it ? And how much memory does Firefox
> use with that many tabs ?

I've had over 1,000 tabs in the past, like pseudo-bookmarks, I'm a bit
more ruthless in getting rid of them these days, actually firefox is
pretty good at "unloading" idle background tabs.

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: 02 Aug 2023 15:38:39 +0100 (BST)
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 by: Theo - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 14:38 UTC

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02 Aug 2023 13:40:49 +0100 (BST)
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > The flip side is that putting browser tabs into your task switcher (as
> > Android can do) is utterly un-scalable when you have a lot of browser tabs.
> > At the moment I have (checks) 398 tabs in a Firefox window, and that would
> > completely overwhelm any kind of Alt-Tab mechanism.
>
> Wow. How do you keep track of them ? I mean how do you decide which tab you
> want to go to and how do you switch to it ?

I use a 'Custom CSS for Firefox' userChrome,
which has a 'tabs_multiple_lines.css' file
https://github.com/Aris-t2/CustomCSSforFx/blob/master/current/css/tabs/tabs_multiple_lines.css

That gives me 6 rows of tabs. If I have more than 6 rows, there's a small
vertical scrollbar.

Tabs can be identified by their Favicon, or by hovering over them.
I can shift-select tabs and right click to close selections.

> And how much memory does Firefox use with that many tabs ?

I have a plugin 'Auto Tab Discard' that throws away the contents of some
kinds of tabs and frees up the memory, and then reloads them when you
foreground the tab.

With that (1004474 is the PID of my Firefox parent process):

$ ps -o size,ppid -u $USER | grep 1004474 | sed s/1004474//g | paste -sd+ - | bc
12821288

so about 13GB. It's a 16GB (soldered) laptop but I also have NVMe swap and
zram enabled, so it doesn't get too slow, and suspended tabs aren't
accessing their RAM on a regular basis. On other machines I have more RAM.

As Andy says, they can be used like ephemeral bookmarks for tasks which are
in progress but not completed, without having to expend any effort in
managing them (beyond shift-select, right click, select 'close NN tabs' when
done)

Theo

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Javier)
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
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 by: Javier - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 14:41 UTC

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Basically I want window management to 'just work', but the only way I've
> seen is a tiling window manager, which is awful once you go above a handful
> of windows and even worse on a laptop screen.
>
> So I'm always keen to watch developments in this area, even if I've never
> found the sweet spot.

That problem can be solved with virtual desktops. FVWM does it quite well
and it is even possible to subdivide each virtual desktop into several
virtual screens. To change virtual screen/desktop either click with the
mouse in a pager in the corner of the screen or with a keybiding
(ModifierKey+cursor arrows), which is useful in the case of an
imprecise laptop trackpad. That's how I can keep dozens of windows
opened in a small laptop screen and never minimize anything.

https://www.linux.org.ru/images/18318/original.png

"one virtual desktop for each task and never minimize a window" used to
be a popular idea for window managers. I remember that even Gnome
had by default 4 virtual desktops in the taskbar in the early 2000s.

I guess the main reason for decay in popularity of virtual desktops are
multi-physical monitor setups which are omnipresent in offices nowadays.
It's hard to configure virtual desktops for a multimonitor setup,
especially when those monitors have different resolution each other.

Personally, I find multi phisical monitor setups to be a waste of
physical space, hardware and electricity, but that's not a popular
thought nowadays.

Re: GNOME: rethinking window management

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME: rethinking window management
Date: 02 Aug 2023 16:05:45 +0100 (BST)
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 by: Theo - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 15:05 UTC

Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > Basically I want window management to 'just work', but the only way I've
> > seen is a tiling window manager, which is awful once you go above a handful
> > of windows and even worse on a laptop screen.
> >
> > So I'm always keen to watch developments in this area, even if I've never
> > found the sweet spot.
>
> That problem can be solved with virtual desktops. FVWM does it quite well
> and it is even possible to subdivide each virtual desktop into several
> virtual screens. To change virtual screen/desktop either click with the
> mouse in a pager in the corner of the screen or with a keybiding
> (ModifierKey+cursor arrows), which is useful in the case of an
> imprecise laptop trackpad. That's how I can keep dozens of windows
> opened in a small laptop screen and never minimize anything.

The thing I don't like about virtual desktops is how your windows just all
vanish if you switch desktops. eg I managed to get a browser window on a
second desktop, and when I Alt-Tabbed to it suddenly all my other windows
were gone. This is very disconcerting if you do it by accident.

It would be nice if you could say to the WM 'this window is on all my
desktops', so you could eg have access to your email when doing any task,
rather than have to try to spawn a second window in your mail client, if it
even supports that, for your second desktop.

It looks like Ubuntu/GNOME has an 'always on visible workspace' option, so I
might have a play with that. It seems like it doesn't persist over
sessions, though, so you still have to do setup each time.

Theo

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