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computers / comp.mobile.ipad / Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesWally J
`* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featurescandycanearter07
 +* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresbadgolferman
 |`* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan
 | `- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featurescandycanearter07
 +- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 +* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesChris
 |`* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 | +* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featurescandycanearter07
 | |`* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 | | `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan
 | |  `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 | |   `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan
 | |    +* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 | |    |`* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan
 | |    | +* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featurescandycanearter07
 | |    | |+* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan
 | |    | ||`* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 | |    | || `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featurescandycanearter07
 | |    | ||  `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan
 | |    | ||   `- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featurescandycanearter07
 | |    | |+* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesYour Name
 | |    | ||+- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 | |    | ||`- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesChris
 | |    | |`* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesDavid Taylor
 | |    | | `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featurescandycanearter07
 | |    | |  `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresnospam
 | |    | |   `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesSn!pe
 | |    | |    `- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featurescandycanearter07
 | |    | `- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 | |    `- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresnospam
 | `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesChris
 |  `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 |   `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featurescandycanearter07
 |    `- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
 +- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan
 `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresnospam
  `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
   `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresnospam
    `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
     `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresnospam
      `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
       `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresnospam
        `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
         `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresnospam
          +* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
          |`* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresnospam
          | `- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan Browne
          `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan
           `* Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Featuresnospam
            `- Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 FeaturesAlan

Pages:123
Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<EzWOM.40164$_Lv6.16713@fx12.iad>

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<190920231028585705%nospam@nospam.invalid> <uecda2$2d9ot$1@dont-email.me>
<190920231114148664%nospam@nospam.invalid>
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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:21:56 -0400
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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:21 UTC

On 2023-09-20 20:23, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-09-20 17:12, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-09-20 20:04, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-20 16:54, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-09-20 19:40, Alan wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-09-20 16:28, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-09-20 14:56, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/20/23 13:07, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2023-09-20 13:48, Chris wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Nope. Windows 11 is 64b only.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Will it run a 32bit app? [AAA]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Probably. Windows is big on backwards compatibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which means its tiny on evolving.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What is really amusing is that Apple started the Mac with the
>>>>> 32-bit Motorola 68000 processor...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...then transitioned to the M68030...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...while maintaining backwards compatibility...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...then transition to the PowerPC architecture...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...while maintaining backwards compatibility...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...then the Intel x86 architecture...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...while maintaining backwards compatibility...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...and finally (currently) to the Apple Silicon architecture...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...while maintaining backwards compatibility.
>>>>
>>>> https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT208436
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Apple began transitioning to 64-bit hardware and software technology
>>> for Mac over a decade ago"
>>
>> Regardless, 32b apps are dead in Mac OS now (last OS was Mojave that
>> would run them).
>>
>> Windows 10 still runs 32b apps; Win 11 too.
>>
>
> Sure. So?

Not exactly "Mr. Following the context of the sub-thread." are you?
[AAA] above.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<aQWOM.3932$Lmc1.184@fx44.iad>

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Subject: Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features
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<190920231028585705%nospam@nospam.invalid> <uecda2$2d9ot$1@dont-email.me>
<190920231114148664%nospam@nospam.invalid>
<ueefhe$12pf4$1@paganini.bofh.team> <uef0cr$2vh1n$2@dont-email.me>
<200920232027264019%nospam@nospam.invalid>
From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:39 UTC

On 2023-09-20 20:27, nospam wrote:
> In article <uef0cr$2vh1n$2@dont-email.me>, candycanearter07
> <no@thanks.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> It wouldn't be as bad if they didn't arbitrarily move the supported
>> devices forward.
>
> it's not arbitrary.
>
>> The ONLY one I think was justified was the 32 bit
>> cutoff, but they still could've very easily made a 32b version. Hell,
>> even Windows does that.
>
> no they couldn't. the arm 32bit and 64bit instruction sets are

Not impossible - just very undesirable.

You can segregate processes so 32b code will run on a 64b OS on ARM.

But it means all libraries for the 32b code be installed as well as the
64b versions. Lots of code storage and a segregated section of RAM to
load and run them as well. And some sort of 'tween interface for IO as
that would all be on the 64b side.

Very messy.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<m_WOM.40800$_Lv6.12954@fx12.iad>

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<190920231028585705%nospam@nospam.invalid> <uecda2$2d9ot$1@dont-email.me>
<190920231114148664%nospam@nospam.invalid>
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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:50 UTC

On 2023-09-20 22:58, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-09-20 19:52, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> On 9/20/23 19:23, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-20 17:12, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> Regardless, 32b apps are dead in Mac OS now (last OS was Mojave that
>>>> would run them).
>>>>
>>>> Windows 10 still runs 32b apps; Win 11 too.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sure. So?
>>
>> So consumers want to be able to use older apps?
>
> Do they?
>
> Do they really?
>
> Show your work.

I do have a legacy photo slideshow program that I like running under
WinXP in a virtual container. It also runs under Win10 (tested by me)
and I assume under Win11 (not tested by me).

I haven't found a photo slideshow presenter that works quite like it for
Mac to date. (With LViewPro I can generate lists separately into txt
files for presentation order. So I've written a program to do that for
me depending on criteria I select or generate random order slideshows.)

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:51 UTC

On 2023-09-21 02:10, Chris wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-09-20 13:48, Chris wrote:
>>> candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:
>>>> On 9/20/23 04:54, Wally J wrote:
>>>>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
>>>>>> nope. there is no requirement to upgrade nor is it forced. when it
>>>>>> asks to confirm the upgrade, decline it. you can remain at whatever
>>>>>> version you want. ios developers have multiple devices with various
>>>>>> older versions for testing (which is annoying but that's how it is).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet again... *iKooks are completely ignorant of everything about Apple*
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to be fully supported *you _must_ upgrade from iOS 16 to 17*
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not surprising that nospam is completely ignorant of this basic fact.
>>>>
>>>> It wouldn't be as bad if they didn't arbitrarily move the supported
>>>> devices forward. The ONLY one I think was justified was the 32 bit
>>>> cutoff, but they still could've very easily made a 32b version. Hell,
>>>> even Windows does that.
>>>
>>> Nope. Windows 11 is 64b only.
>>
>> Will it run a 32bit app?
>
> Maybe?

Per online sources, yes.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 13:02 UTC

On 2023-09-21 02:23, Your Name wrote:
> On 2023-09-21 02:52:10 +0000, candycanearter07 said:
>> On 9/20/23 19:23, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-20 17:12, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Regardless, 32b apps are dead in Mac OS now (last OS was Mojave that
>>>> would run them).
>>>>
>>>> Windows 10 still runs 32b apps; Win 11 too.
>>>
>>> Sure. So?
>>
>> So consumers want to be able to use older apps?
>
> Most consumers couldn't care less. As long as the computer can easily
> run an email app, a web browser, and some sort of word processor and
> spreadsheet, they're happy. Mostly it is whatever software that comes
> free / bundled with the computer.
>
> Businesses that use custom apps may need to be able to run older
> software, but most businesses users don't care either - they just buy
> new equipment and new software, and write it off their taxes as a
> "business expense".

Many businesses don't run business s/w on their own computers (beyond
perhaps Word/Excel/Powerpoint) - they use "cloud" services. Salesforce,
Quickbooks, ERP s/w galore, for example.

My business is stuck running Win 10 (under VM) just for accounting as
the s/w the accountants like is not available under MacOS. That co.
does have a "rental" version online now (Sage) and it's likely we'll
move to that in the coming couple years if not Quickbooks.

> A tiny minority of people that want to keep using old apps are the only
> ones who even know such a problem even exists.

I'm down to one I'm fond of (under WinXP), but will leap to something
better if I find the one that is just right.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<210920230945447834%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
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 by: nospam - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 13:45 UTC

In article <aQWOM.3932$Lmc1.184@fx44.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> >> The ONLY one I think was justified was the 32 bit
> >> cutoff, but they still could've very easily made a 32b version. Hell,
> >> even Windows does that.
> >
> > no they couldn't. the arm 32bit and 64bit instruction sets are
>
> Not impossible - just very undesirable.

it's impossible.

> You can segregate processes so 32b code will run on a 64b OS on ARM.

not when there aren't 32 bit instructions on the chip to run them.

> But it means all libraries for the 32b code be installed as well as the
> 64b versions. Lots of code storage and a segregated section of RAM to
> load and run them as well. And some sort of 'tween interface for IO as
> that would all be on the 64b side.

you can install all the libraries you want, but if the 32 bit
instructions aren't on the chip, it's not going to work.

> Very messy.

actually, very clean. it won't work.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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Subject: Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features
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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 13:53 UTC

On 2023-09-21 09:45, nospam wrote:
> In article <aQWOM.3932$Lmc1.184@fx44.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>>> The ONLY one I think was justified was the 32 bit
>>>> cutoff, but they still could've very easily made a 32b version. Hell,
>>>> even Windows does that.
>>>
>>> no they couldn't. the arm 32bit and 64bit instruction sets are
>>
>> Not impossible - just very undesirable.
>
> it's impossible.
>
>> You can segregate processes so 32b code will run on a 64b OS on ARM.
>
> not when there aren't 32 bit instructions on the chip to run them.

Arm 64b processors do run 32 bit instructions. But it's one set or the
other for any given process.

>
>> But it means all libraries for the 32b code be installed as well as the
>> 64b versions. Lots of code storage and a segregated section of RAM to
>> load and run them as well. And some sort of 'tween interface for IO as
>> that would all be on the 64b side.
>
> you can install all the libraries you want, but if the 32 bit
> instructions aren't on the chip, it's not going to work.
>
>> Very messy.
>
> actually, very clean. it won't work.

Sure it will. On an ARM 64 processor. You're focused on Apple Silicon.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<210920231000190351%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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 by: nospam - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 14:00 UTC

In article <CVXOM.96158$noZ7.64524@fx13.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> >> You can segregate processes so 32b code will run on a 64b OS on ARM.
> >
> > not when there aren't 32 bit instructions on the chip to run them.
>
> Arm 64b processors do run 32 bit instructions. But it's one set or the
> other for any given process.

apple's a11 (and later) and m-series do not have 32 bit.

arm processors in android phones and other devices can (for now,
although not for long), but that's not relevant here.

> >> Very messy.
> >
> > actually, very clean. it won't work.
>
> Sure it will. On an ARM 64 processor. You're focused on Apple Silicon.

that's what's inside iphones, ipads and now macs.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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From: snipec...@gmail.com (Sn!pe)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:37:00 +0100
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 by: Sn!pe - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 14:37 UTC

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <uegp1a$33qqp$4@dont-email.me>, candycanearter07
> <no@thanks.net> wrote:
>
> > >> So consumers want to be able to use older apps?
> > >
> > > Yes. If it works, any change is just unwanted extra effort.
> > >
> > > Most people are interested in results, not the inner workings.
> >
> > Yea, people don't want to change apps and some don't have a 64b version
>
> no need to change apps, just update to the latest version, which will
> also add various other features.
>
> if the developer can't be bothered to update it to 64 bit, then the
> problem is with the developer, not the operating system.

Some of us (inc. me) are wedded to legacy abandonware.
I run a secondary legacy 'puter just to keep MacSOUP alive.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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From: no...@thanks.net (candycanearter07)
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Subject: Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features
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 by: candycanearter07 - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 14:47 UTC

On 9/21/23 07:50, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-09-20 22:58, Alan wrote:
>> Do they?
>>
>> Do they really?
>>
>> Show your work.
>
> I do have a legacy photo slideshow program that I like running under
> WinXP in a virtual container.  It also runs under Win10 (tested by me)
> and I assume under Win11 (not tested by me).
>
> I haven't found a photo slideshow presenter that works quite like it for
> Mac to date.  (With LViewPro I can generate lists separately into txt
> files for presentation order.  So I've written a program to do that for
> me depending on criteria I select or generate random order slideshows.)
>

Yea, there's plenty of useful apps that haven't been updated in years.
--
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Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<uehl6p$3ig8t$2@dont-email.me>

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 by: candycanearter07 - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 14:50 UTC

On 9/21/23 07:51, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-09-21 02:10, Chris wrote:
>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>> Will it run a 32bit app?
>>
>> Maybe?
>
> Per online sources, yes.
>

Darn thing could probably run DOS games.
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Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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 by: candycanearter07 - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 14:52 UTC

On 9/21/23 09:37, Sn!pe wrote:
> Some of us (inc. me) are wedded to legacy abandonware.
> I run a secondary legacy 'puter just to keep MacSOUP alive.
>

Yeah, plus it's also useful if the only tool for something obscure is
abandonware.
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Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 14:55 UTC

On 2023-09-21 10:00, nospam wrote:
> In article <CVXOM.96158$noZ7.64524@fx13.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>>> You can segregate processes so 32b code will run on a 64b OS on ARM.
>>>
>>> not when there aren't 32 bit instructions on the chip to run them.
>>
>> Arm 64b processors do run 32 bit instructions. But it's one set or the
>> other for any given process.
>
> apple's a11 (and later) and m-series do not have 32 bit.

Selective snipping noted. As you wrote yesterday:

nospam wrote (2023-09-20 20:27 (GMT-4:00).
[ no they couldn't. the arm 32bit and 64bit instruction sets are ]
===

That was the context of my reply and it was placed after that statement
of yours.

> arm processors in android phones and other devices can (for now,
> although not for long), but that's not relevant here.
>
>>>> Very messy.
>>>
>>> actually, very clean. it won't work.
>>
>> Sure it will. On an ARM 64 processor. You're focused on Apple Silicon.
>
> that's what's inside iphones, ipads and now macs.

No shit. Again context. See above.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:02 UTC

On 2023-09-21 10:50, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/21/23 07:51, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-09-21 02:10, Chris wrote:
>>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>> Will it run a 32bit app?
>>>
>>> Maybe?
>>
>> Per online sources, yes.
>>
>
> Darn thing could probably run DOS games.

Not certain - many DOS games had pretty good graphics (high resolution
as the graphics cards of the day would support). So drivers could be an
issue when in a "DOS" Window.

That said, the s/w I mention elsewhere that I wrote for setting up
slideshow lists is written as a command line program that is likely DOS
compatible - it runs in Terminal under WinXP/Win10.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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 by: nospam - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:10 UTC

In article <GPYOM.91807$bmw6.32361@fx10.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> On 2023-09-21 10:00, nospam wrote:
> > In article <CVXOM.96158$noZ7.64524@fx13.iad>, Alan Browne
> > <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>> You can segregate processes so 32b code will run on a 64b OS on ARM.
> >>>
> >>> not when there aren't 32 bit instructions on the chip to run them.
> >>
> >> Arm 64b processors do run 32 bit instructions. But it's one set or the
> >> other for any given process.
> >
> > apple's a11 (and later) and m-series do not have 32 bit.
>
> Selective snipping noted. As you wrote yesterday:
>
> nospam wrote (2023-09-20 20:27 (GMT-4:00).
> [ no they couldn't. the arm 32bit and 64bit instruction sets are ]
> ===
>
> That was the context of my reply and it was placed after that statement
> of yours.

the original statement was about *apple* keeping 32 bit compatibility:

In article <uef0cr$2vh1n$2@dont-email.me>, candycanearter07
<no@thanks.net> wrote:
> It wouldn't be as bad if they didn't arbitrarily move the supported
> devices forward. The ONLY one I think was justified was the 32 bit
> cutoff, but they still could've very easily made a 32b version. Hell,
> even Windows does that.

apple supported both 32 & 64 bit for the a7-a10, however, for the a11
and later, 32 bit was removed, making it impossible to support 32 bit
code.

android is also dropping 32 bit support, starting with the pixel 7:

<https://www.androidpolice.com/google-pixel-7-pro-64-bit-info/>
The latest post on the Android Developers Blog has officially dubbed
the Pixel 7 series as the first Android devices to go 64-bit-only.
Most of the missive is spent quantifying the benefits of removing
32-bit support including CPU performance improvements of up to
25%, an extra 150MB in available RAM allocation, support for improved
security tools, faster OS updates, and more. The company also expects
a further wave of 64-bit-only devices (including Google's own Pixel
Tablet) as the timeline progresses

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.ipad,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features
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 by: Alan - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:11 UTC

On 2023-09-21 07:47, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/21/23 07:50, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-09-20 22:58, Alan wrote:
>>> Do they?
>>>
>>> Do they really?
>>>
>>> Show your work.
>>
>> I do have a legacy photo slideshow program that I like running under
>> WinXP in a virtual container.  It also runs under Win10 (tested by me)
>> and I assume under Win11 (not tested by me).
>>
>> I haven't found a photo slideshow presenter that works quite like it
>> for Mac to date.  (With LViewPro I can generate lists separately into
>> txt files for presentation order.  So I've written a program to do
>> that for me depending on criteria I select or generate random order
>> slideshows.)
>>
>
> Yea, there's plenty of useful apps that haven't been updated in years.

Name the oldest application you use.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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From: no...@thanks.net (candycanearter07)
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Subject: Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features
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 by: candycanearter07 - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:25 UTC

On 9/21/23 10:11, Alan wrote:
> Name the oldest application you use.

BYOND
--
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 19:09 UTC

On 2023-09-21 11:10, nospam wrote:
> In article <GPYOM.91807$bmw6.32361@fx10.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-09-21 10:00, nospam wrote:
>>> In article <CVXOM.96158$noZ7.64524@fx13.iad>, Alan Browne
>>> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> You can segregate processes so 32b code will run on a 64b OS on ARM.
>>>>>
>>>>> not when there aren't 32 bit instructions on the chip to run them.
>>>>
>>>> Arm 64b processors do run 32 bit instructions. But it's one set or the
>>>> other for any given process.
>>>
>>> apple's a11 (and later) and m-series do not have 32 bit.
>>
>> Selective snipping noted. As you wrote yesterday:
>>
>> nospam wrote (2023-09-20 20:27 (GMT-4:00).
>> [ no they couldn't. the arm 32bit and 64bit instruction sets are ]
>> ===
>>
>> That was the context of my reply and it was placed after that statement
>> of yours.
>
> the original statement was about *apple* keeping 32 bit compatibility:

Doesn't matter - that is not what I was replying to. You made an
assertion that 32b code could not run on a 64b system. It can. Not a
great idea where ARM is concerned - but it can be done.

<S>
> android is also dropping 32 bit support, starting with the pixel 7:

Samsung were indeed stung by Apple's move - did not expect it at all.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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 by: nospam - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 19:25 UTC

In article <4y0PM.9717$EIy4.2000@fx48.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> >
> > the original statement was about *apple* keeping 32 bit compatibility:
>
> Doesn't matter

it does, since that's what was being discussed.

> - that is not what I was replying to. You made an
> assertion that 32b code could not run on a 64b system. It can. Not a
> great idea where ARM is concerned - but it can be done.

32 bit code can run *only* if there's 32 bit instructions on the chip.

as i said several times, the a11 *removed* 32 bit, making it
*impossible*, and now android is following with 64-bit only hardware.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 19:37 UTC

On 2023-09-21 15:25, nospam wrote:
> In article <4y0PM.9717$EIy4.2000@fx48.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> the original statement was about *apple* keeping 32 bit compatibility:
>>
>> Doesn't matter
>
> it does, since that's what was being discussed.

You're the one who brought up 32b on 64b ARM machines.

As they say in court, "You opened that door ..."

>
>> - that is not what I was replying to. You made an
>> assertion that 32b code could not run on a 64b system. It can. Not a
>> great idea where ARM is concerned - but it can be done.
>
> 32 bit code can run *only* if there's 32 bit instructions on the chip.

And again, what I was replying to was your assertion that you can't run
32b code on a 64b ARM.

> as i said several times, the a11 *removed* 32 bit, making it
> *impossible*, and now android is following with 64-bit only hardware.

Irrelevant to your statement about ARM processors. I'll repeat it so
you can snip it again:

nospam wrote:
[no they couldn't. the arm 32bit and 64bit instruction sets are]
===

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

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 by: Alan - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 19:43 UTC

On 2023-09-21 12:25, nospam wrote:
> In article <4y0PM.9717$EIy4.2000@fx48.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> the original statement was about *apple* keeping 32 bit compatibility:
>>
>> Doesn't matter
>
> it does, since that's what was being discussed.
>
>> - that is not what I was replying to. You made an
>> assertion that 32b code could not run on a 64b system. It can. Not a
>> great idea where ARM is concerned - but it can be done.
>
> 32 bit code can run *only* if there's 32 bit instructions on the chip.
>
> as i said several times, the a11 *removed* 32 bit, making it
> *impossible*, and now android is following with 64-bit only hardware.

And you intially said that 64-bit "ARM processors" [emphasis mine] don't
have 32-bit instructions, when what you meant was only Apple's ARM-based
processors.

You mispoke, and what you said WAS wrong.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<uei7eq$3m506$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ithink...@gmail.com (Chris)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.ipad,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 20:01:30 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Chris - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 20:01 UTC

Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> On 2023-09-21 02:52:10 +0000, candycanearter07 said:
>> On 9/20/23 19:23, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-20 17:12, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Regardless, 32b apps are dead in Mac OS now (last OS was Mojave that
>>>> would run them).
>>>>
>>>> Windows 10 still runs 32b apps; Win 11 too.
>>>
>>> Sure. So?
>>
>> So consumers want to be able to use older apps?
>
> Most consumers couldn't care less. As long as the computer can easily
> run an email app, a web browser, and some sort of word processor and
> spreadsheet, they're happy. Mostly it is whatever software that comes
> free / bundled with the computer.
>
> Businesses that use custom apps may need to be able to run older
> software, but most businesses users don't care either - they just buy
> new equipment and new software, and write it off their taxes as a
> "business expense".

Some businesses might be able to, but smaller ones, non-profits and
educational systems won't.

Universities for example run very old software to support equipment that
was bought a long time ago. The software is no longer supported by the
vendor but works just fine ... as long as it's on Windows XP.

The lab is definitely not going to spend 100+k on new hardware simply to
upgrade the software.

> A tiny minority of people that want to keep using old apps are the only
> ones who even know such a problem even exists.

It is a small number, but not frivolous.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<210920231621533971%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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 by: nospam - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 20:21 UTC

In article <xX0PM.12282$C_lf.1731@fx33.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> >>>
> >>> the original statement was about *apple* keeping 32 bit compatibility:
> >>
> >> Doesn't matter
> >
> > it does, since that's what was being discussed.
>
> You're the one who brought up 32b on 64b ARM machines.

nope, that was someone else, who claimed that apple could have
continued to support 32 bit apps, just like windows did. they could
not.

> As they say in court, "You opened that door ..."

as they say in court, objection overruled.

> >> - that is not what I was replying to. You made an
> >> assertion that 32b code could not run on a 64b system. It can. Not a
> >> great idea where ARM is concerned - but it can be done.
> >
> > 32 bit code can run *only* if there's 32 bit instructions on the chip.
>
> And again, what I was replying to was your assertion that you can't run
> 32b code on a 64b ARM.

that assertion is correct.

the only way 32 bit code can run is if there's 32 bit support on the
chip itself.

apple's a7 through a10 processors had both 32 & 64 bit instructions, so
apps could be either.

the a11 chip (and later) do not have 32 bit anymore. they only have 64
bit, making it impossible to run 32 bit code. full stop. no amount of
additional libraries or hacking is going to change that.

android is following (as they always do). android apps on the play
store have been required to include 64 bit since 2019, preparing for
the eventual 32 bit removal from hardware, which has begun. the pixel 7
is the first 64-bit only android phone, with more to follow.

<https://chromeunboxed.com/64-bit-builds-older-pixel-phones>
Unbeknownst to many, the Pixel 7 Series was released as the first
ever 64-bit only Android phone. This is a milestone many years in the
making and has been warned about since 2014 when Google told
Developers to start getting their apps ready for the change. Alas,
the time came, and the Pixel 7 and 7 Pro shipped with a 64-bit only
build of Android 13, which means that 32-bit apps cannot be installed
on these devices.

<https://www.arm.com/blogs/blueprint/android-64bit-future-mobile>
Arm Cortex-A ³big² cores will only support 64-bit code from 2022.
From AI to immersive mobile gaming, this is a major enabler for the
Android ecosystem.

> > as i said several times, the a11 *removed* 32 bit, making it
> > *impossible*, and now android is following with 64-bit only hardware.
>
> Irrelevant to your statement about ARM processors. I'll repeat it so
> you can snip it again:
>
> nospam wrote:
> [no they couldn't. the arm 32bit and 64bit instruction sets are]
> ===

you left out the rest of it, that they are different. that statement is
correct.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<210920231621574208%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
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Subject: Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features
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 by: nospam - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 20:21 UTC

In article <uei6cv$3lrjc$1@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

> >>> the original statement was about *apple* keeping 32 bit compatibility:
> >>
> >> Doesn't matter
> >
> > it does, since that's what was being discussed.
> >
> >> - that is not what I was replying to. You made an
> >> assertion that 32b code could not run on a 64b system. It can. Not a
> >> great idea where ARM is concerned - but it can be done.
> >
> > 32 bit code can run *only* if there's 32 bit instructions on the chip.
> >
> > as i said several times, the a11 *removed* 32 bit, making it
> > *impossible*, and now android is following with 64-bit only hardware.
>
> And you intially said that 64-bit "ARM processors" [emphasis mine] don't
> have 32-bit instructions, when what you meant was only Apple's ARM-based
> processors.

and some from other manufacturers.

<https://www.androidcentral.com/phones/snapdragon-8-gen-3-leak-64-bit-on
ly>
Furthermore, the core leak for the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 states the
"Hunter" and "Hayes" codenames refer to unannounced CPU cores.
Apparently, these cores drop 32-bit support, meaning Qualcomm's
upcoming chip could probably only support 64-bit, as referenced in a
piece of the company's code.

This would mean more 64-bit-only phones may arrive later this
year following the launch of the Pixel 7, which was the first Android
phone with that distinction.

again, the original comment was that apple could have continued to
support 32 bit apps. they could not, since the hardware does not have
32 bit anymore.

the transition for android is much slower for various reasons, but it
too will drop 32 bit support.

> You mispoke, and what you said WAS wrong.

wrong on both.

Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features

<ueiddi$3n51q$2@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.ipad,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fix the Most Annoying iOS 17 Features
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 14:43:14 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 21 Sep 2023 21:43 UTC

On 2023-09-21 13:21, nospam wrote:
> In article <uei6cv$3lrjc$1@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> the original statement was about *apple* keeping 32 bit compatibility:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't matter
>>>
>>> it does, since that's what was being discussed.
>>>
>>>> - that is not what I was replying to. You made an
>>>> assertion that 32b code could not run on a 64b system. It can. Not a
>>>> great idea where ARM is concerned - but it can be done.
>>>
>>> 32 bit code can run *only* if there's 32 bit instructions on the chip.
>>>
>>> as i said several times, the a11 *removed* 32 bit, making it
>>> *impossible*, and now android is following with 64-bit only hardware.
>>
>> And you intially said that 64-bit "ARM processors" [emphasis mine] don't
>> have 32-bit instructions, when what you meant was only Apple's ARM-based
>> processors.
>
> and some from other manufacturers.

The active word being "some".

>
> <https://www.androidcentral.com/phones/snapdragon-8-gen-3-leak-64-bit-on
> ly>
> Furthermore, the core leak for the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 states the
> "Hunter" and "Hayes" codenames refer to unannounced CPU cores.
> Apparently, these cores drop 32-bit support, meaning Qualcomm's
> upcoming chip could probably only support 64-bit, as referenced in a
> piece of the company's code.
>
> This would mean more 64-bit-only phones may arrive later this
> year following the launch of the Pixel 7, which was the first Android
> phone with that distinction.
>
> again, the original comment was that apple could have continued to
> support 32 bit apps. they could not, since the hardware does not have
> 32 bit anymore.
>
> the transition for android is much slower for various reasons, but it
> too will drop 32 bit support.
>
>> You mispoke, and what you said WAS wrong.
>
> wrong on both.

Nope.

You made a general statement about "arm processors".

That general statement was wrong.

Now deal with that fact like a grown-up.

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