On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 10:02:21 PM UTC+1, Chris Townley wrote:
> On 08/01/2021 19:56, David Turner wrote:
> > You can get AlphaVM-Pro (the hobbyist version) pretty cheap from EMUVM.com
> >
> > Much faster I am sure
> >
> Not sure a purchase price of EUR400 (US$500), then EUR100 (US$150) per
> annum is that cheap for hobbyists! Especially with the CPU speed
> restriction.
>
> FreeAXP works, and is free, albeit with CPU and speed restrictions.
>
>
> Chris

Best is to test with real application that one uses, VUPS and most other loop/time _may_ show invalid results on emulators that either benefit from repeated iterations due to reuse of translated instructions (blocks) or even clock drift that may result in invalid unit/time

^P

It seems pretty clear that the assertion that L1 is for upgrades only isn't correct. On SCSI I can install it fine, bypassing two spurious "file not found" messages (helplib.hlb and dcltables.exe). It feels like those are sequencing errors, since the resulting system seems to work which suggests that those files do end up installed at some point.

Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life. And BTW, Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV. So if you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work. Older ones that are Phase III would not work.

paul

On 5/18/2023 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life. And BTW,
> Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV. So if
> you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work. Older ones that
> are Phase III would not work.

I don't see Phase V providing anything useful that Phase IV
does not provide - and everything is just more complex to
configure in V.

Arne

On 2023-05-18, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 5/18/2023 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life. And BTW,
>> Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV. So if
>> you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work. Older ones that
>> are Phase III would not work.
>
> I don't see Phase V providing anything useful that Phase IV
> does not provide - and everything is just more complex to
> configure in V.
>

DECnet Phase V is how Heath Robinson would have designed a networking
protocol.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 5/19/2023 8:09 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-05-18, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 5/18/2023 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life. And BTW,
>>> Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV. So if
>>> you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work. Older ones that
>>> are Phase III would not work.
>>
>> I don't see Phase V providing anything useful that Phase IV
>> does not provide - and everything is just more complex to
>> configure in V.
>
> DECnet Phase V is how Heath Robinson would have designed a networking
> protocol.

If everybody else had implemented all these protocols, then
maybe DECnet OSI would have been pretty cool.

But noone did.

So the only features one need are the phase IV compatibility
features.

And phase IV already got those.

Arne

On 2023-05-19 12:09:01 +0000, Simon Clubley said:

> On 2023-05-18, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 5/18/2023 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life. And BTW,
>>> Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV. So if you
>>> want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work. Older ones that are
>>> Phase III would not work.
>>
>> I don't see Phase V providing anything useful that Phase IV does not
>> provide - and everything is just more complex to configure in V.
>>
>
> DECnet Phase V is how Heath Robinson would have designed a networking protocol.

I'm sure Paul has seen some Rube Goldberg constructions—the US
equivalent to Heath Robinson—at DEC and likely elsewhere, if Paul is
the same person that used to have the KONING:: host an aeon or two ago.

And yeah, DECnet Phase V features a wonderful and elegant and capable
design throughout, having unfortunately started out with a staggeringly
poor and overly-complex management interface for even the common cases,
and never really recovered from that.

I'd generally upgrade from Phase V to Phase IV, absent requirements for
DECnet over IP or a few other network rarities. Or for cases where
somebody wants to experience OSI networking and what could have been
but for utterly missing the market, of course.

--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

On 2023-05-19 16:02, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
> On 2023-05-19 12:09:01 +0000, Simon Clubley said:
>
>> On 2023-05-18, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 5/18/2023 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>>> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life.  And BTW,
>>>> Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV.  So if
>>>> you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work.  Older ones that
>>>> are Phase III would not work.
>>>
>>> I don't see Phase V providing anything useful that Phase IV does not
>>> provide - and everything is just more complex to configure in V.
>>>
>>
>> DECnet Phase V is how Heath Robinson would have designed a networking
>> protocol.
>
> I'm sure Paul has seen some Rube Goldberg constructions—the US
> equivalent to Heath Robinson—at DEC and likely elsewhere, if Paul is the
> same person that used to have the KONING:: host an aeon or two ago.

Pretty sure it's the same one, yes. :-)

> And yeah, DECnet Phase V features a wonderful and elegant and capable
> design throughout, having unfortunately started out with a staggeringly
> poor and overly-complex management interface for even the common cases,
> and never really recovered from that.

Agreed.

> I'd generally upgrade from Phase V to Phase IV, absent requirements for
> DECnet over IP or a few other network rarities. Or for cases where
> somebody wants to experience OSI networking and what could have been but
> for utterly missing the market, of course.

And for that, I constantly point out that DECnet over IP is perfectly
possible with Phase IV. For VMS, you need to install Multinet, and then
you'll have it there.

For RSX, you need to install my TCP/IP, and then you have it there as well.

And Paul have his Python DECnet implementation, which also supports it.

Works like a charm.

Johnny

On 2023-05-18 16:19, Paul Koning wrote:
> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life. And BTW, Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV. So if you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work. Older ones that are Phase III would not work.

The Phase IV backward compatibility is somewhat imperfect, though...

..ncp tell pkvms2 sho exec
NCP -- Show failed, oversized Management command message
..

If I had some access I could explore more... ;-)

Johnny

On 5/19/2023 8:15 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 5/19/2023 8:09 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-05-18, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 5/18/2023 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>>> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life.  And BTW,
>>>> Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV.  So if
>>>> you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work.  Older ones that
>>>> are Phase III would not work.
>>>
>>> I don't see Phase V providing anything useful that Phase IV
>>> does not provide - and everything is just more complex to
>>> configure in V.
>>
>> DECnet Phase V is how Heath Robinson would have designed a networking
>> protocol.
>
> If everybody else had implemented all these protocols, then
> maybe DECnet OSI would have been pretty cool.
>
> But noone did.
>
> So the only features one need are the phase IV compatibility
> features.
>
> And phase IV already got those.

I mean what does people use from DECnet today.

SET HOST
node + username + password in RMS file spec
maybe proxy access
maybe tast-to-task comm

That is probably 99.9% of usage.

Arne

On 2023-05-22 19:51, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 5/19/2023 8:15 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 5/19/2023 8:09 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-18, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/2023 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>>>> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life.  And BTW,
>>>>> Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV.  So if
>>>>> you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work.  Older ones that
>>>>> are Phase III would not work.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see Phase V providing anything useful that Phase IV
>>>> does not provide - and everything is just more complex to
>>>> configure in V.
>>>
>>> DECnet Phase V is how Heath Robinson would have designed a networking
>>> protocol.
>>
>> If everybody else had implemented all these protocols, then
>> maybe DECnet OSI would have been pretty cool.
>>
>> But noone did.
>>
>> So the only features one need are the phase IV compatibility
>> features.
>>
>> And phase IV already got those.
>
> I mean what does people use from DECnet today.
>
> SET HOST
> node + username + password in RMS file spec
> maybe proxy access
> maybe tast-to-task comm
>
> That is probably 99.9% of usage.

In a way I'm sure I don't count... But I use Datatrieve-11 over DECnet
sometimes. And PHONE. And of course, NICE is actually used quite a lot.

Johnny

On 23/05/2023 22:50, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-05-22 19:51, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 5/19/2023 8:15 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2023 8:09 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2023-05-18, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>>>> On 5/18/2023 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>>>>> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life.  And BTW,
>>>>>> Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV.  So if
>>>>>> you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work.  Older ones that
>>>>>> are Phase III would not work.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see Phase V providing anything useful that Phase IV
>>>>> does not provide - and everything is just more complex to
>>>>> configure in V.
>>>>
>>>> DECnet Phase V is how Heath Robinson would have designed a networking
>>>> protocol.
>>>
>>> If everybody else had implemented all these protocols, then
>>> maybe DECnet OSI would have been pretty cool.
>>>
>>> But noone did.
>>>
>>> So the only features one need are the phase IV compatibility
>>> features.
>>>
>>> And phase IV already got those.
>>
>> I mean what does people use from DECnet today.
>>
>> SET HOST
>> node + username + password in RMS file spec
>> maybe proxy access
>> maybe tast-to-task comm
>>
>> That is probably 99.9% of usage.
>
> In a way I'm sure I don't count... But I use Datatrieve-11 over DECnet
> sometimes. And PHONE. And of course, NICE is actually used quite a lot.
>
>   Johnny
>

I certainly use set host, file copying, and used to use remote execution
with the task object

I can use scp etc, but DECNET is much easier. Not worried about
security, as none of my VMS systems are exposed

--
Chris

For those tinkering around here with these.....

There was a long-ago forum posted fix, that catches and displays unaligned
access/code errors, and accounts for proper sizing - as well as calling the PAL
routine to handle unaligned access instead of just outright choking up. While part
of the fix had been implemented in the original es40, the rest - trapping to the
appropriate PALcode routine hadn't been done.

I've installed 8.4-2L1 and 8.4-2L2 on this with much joy and seemingly stable
networking - buyer beware though, i'm only building using Visual Studio 2022
and the Windows 10 SDK, but should run fine on 8.1.

https://github.com/gdwnldsKSC/es40

VS 2022 of any version should be sufficient to complete the build instructions,
I am using Professional, but Community is feature and function identical.

Binary build is provided of the alignment "fix" release for windows. Any other
build files haven't been tested or used for any platform beyond the above.

However, so far the code changes done and dragged in are mainly compiler
fixes and compiler/C/C++ standards compliance fixes, so any reasonably modern
C/C++ compiler shouldn't have too much of an issue getting it built - but that's
an exercise left to the reader. Git history shows the fixes pulled in so far from other
repos. 2015 was actually the last version of VS/MSVC that required code changes
to fix.

Arne Vajhøj schrieb am 22.05.2023 um 19:51:
> On 5/19/2023 8:15 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 5/19/2023 8:09 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-18, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/2023 10:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>>>> Time to try DECnet Phase V for the first time in my life.  And BTW,
>>>>> Bill, Phase V includes backward compatibility with Phase IV.  So if
>>>>> you want to talk to RSTS/E Phase IV it should work.  Older ones that
>>>>> are Phase III would not work.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see Phase V providing anything useful that Phase IV
>>>> does not provide - and everything is just more complex to
>>>> configure in V.
>>>
>>> DECnet Phase V is how Heath Robinson would have designed a networking
>>> protocol.
>>
>> If everybody else had implemented all these protocols, then
>> maybe DECnet OSI would have been pretty cool.
>>
>> But noone did.
>>
>> So the only features one need are the phase IV compatibility
>> features.
>>
>> And phase IV already got those.
>
> I mean what does people use from DECnet today.
>
> SET HOST
> node + username + password in RMS file spec
> maybe proxy access
> maybe tast-to-task comm
>
> That is probably 99.9% of usage.

and DECnet over (DEC/CPQ/HP/VSI) IP.

Didn't check - does SYSMAN work with TCP/IP (only)?

Hans.