WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
from RS11 on the PDP. I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
my interest so I picked it up and did a little lite reading.

This brought a couple question to mind.

But first, the funny part. Page 2-12 has Table 2-2 Disk Devices.
Wish I had one of those 104MB RL02's it lists. Mine were all
10.4MB. :-)

There is a whole paragraph about compatibility with VAX/VMS. It
mentions "The BASIC Transportability Package" for moving BASIC
program from RSTS/E to VMS. Of course, VMS BASIC at that time was
probably nothing like what it is today.

And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
Manual". I would love to see a copy of that.

And one other note or rather a kind of question. The book (and some
of the other DEC Books) are loaded with pictures of people working
with DEC systems. Does anyone know if these were all professionally
staged pictures or are these people who worked at DEC? And if the
latter, any chance someone can identify any of them?

bill

On 4/6/2023 7:02 PM, bill wrote:
>
> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
> from RS11 on the PDP.  I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
^^^^
Oops. RSX-11

> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
> my interest so I picked it up and did a  little lite reading.
>
> This brought a couple question to mind.
>
> But first, the funny part.  Page 2-12 has Table 2-2 Disk Devices.
> Wish I had one of those 104MB RL02's it lists.  Mine were all
> 10.4MB.  :-)
>
> There is a whole paragraph about compatibility with VAX/VMS.  It
> mentions "The BASIC Transportability Package" for moving BASIC
> program from RSTS/E to VMS.  Of course, VMS BASIC at that time was
> probably nothing like what it is today.
>
> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
> Manual".  I would love to see a copy of that.
>
> And one other note or rather a kind of question.  The book (and some
> of the other DEC Books) are loaded with pictures of people working
> with DEC systems.  Does anyone know if these were all professionally
> staged pictures or are these people who worked at DEC?  And if the
> latter, any chance someone can identify any of them?
>
> bill

On 4/6/2023 7:02 PM, bill wrote:
>
> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
> from RS11 on the PDP. I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
> my interest so I picked it up and did a little lite reading.
>
> This brought a couple question to mind.
>
> But first, the funny part. Page 2-12 has Table 2-2 Disk Devices.
> Wish I had one of those 104MB RL02's it lists. Mine were all
> 10.4MB. :-)
>
> There is a whole paragraph about compatibility with VAX/VMS. It
> mentions "The BASIC Transportability Package" for moving BASIC
> program from RSTS/E to VMS. Of course, VMS BASIC at that time was
> probably nothing like what it is today.

BP2 using VAX compatibility mode.

Later Kirbey Altman led the project to implement VAX Basic.

A historical note. ISVs with applications on RSTS wanted a more RSTS feel on
VMS. A DEC person turned it around, and said, "How about DCL on RSTS?". And
that's what DEC did.

I still missed "Ready", until SET PROMPT happened ..

:-)

> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
> Manual". I would love to see a copy of that.
>
> And one other note or rather a kind of question. The book (and some
> of the other DEC Books) are loaded with pictures of people working
> with DEC systems. Does anyone know if these were all professionally
> staged pictures or are these people who worked at DEC? And if the
> latter, any chance someone can identify any of them?
>
> bill

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/6/2023 6:02 PM, bill wrote:
>
> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
> from RS11 on the PDP.  I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
> my interest so I picked it up and did a  little lite reading.
>
> This brought a couple question to mind.
>
> But first, the funny part.  Page 2-12 has Table 2-2 Disk Devices.
> Wish I had one of those 104MB RL02's it lists.  Mine were all
> 10.4MB.  :-)
>
> There is a whole paragraph about compatibility with VAX/VMS.  It
> mentions "The BASIC Transportability Package" for moving BASIC
> program from RSTS/E to VMS.  Of course, VMS BASIC at that time was
> probably nothing like what it is today.
>
> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
> Manual".  I would love to see a copy of that.
>
> And one other note or rather a kind of question.  The book (and some
> of the other DEC Books) are loaded with pictures of people working
> with DEC systems.  Does anyone know if these were all professionally
> staged pictures or are these people who worked at DEC?  And if the
> latter, any chance someone can identify any of them?
>
> bill

My first job out of college was as a programmer at DePauw University in Greencastle. Their adminstrative system was a PDP-11/70 and they had bought a VAX-11/780 and we (me and 3 others) re-wrote their Admissions, Registrar and some financial code from PDP-11 BASIC-PLUS into VAX-11 BASIC. It was 1983 and took about a year. I later became the System Manager for that VAX and oversaw the upgrading to a VAXCluster of two 8350's and a MVII in 1987-ish time

John H. Reinhardt

On 2023-04-06, bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
> Manual". I would love to see a copy of that.
>

That was just one of a series of manuals offered by DEC to RSTS/E
customers thinking of moving to VAX/VMS.

There were also language related guides, including one for moving from
RSTS/E DIBOL to VAX/VMS DIBOL.

They were one of the earliest things I had to read in the DEC world
to help with moving from RSTS/E to VAX/VMS and I have been left with
a memory that they were very well written and useful.

I've just had a quick look on Bitsavers to see if I could find them,
but without success.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 4/7/2023 7:51 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-04-06, bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
>> Manual". I would love to see a copy of that.
>>
>
> That was just one of a series of manuals offered by DEC to RSTS/E
> customers thinking of moving to VAX/VMS.
>
> There were also language related guides, including one for moving from
> RSTS/E DIBOL to VAX/VMS DIBOL.
>
> They were one of the earliest things I had to read in the DEC world
> to help with moving from RSTS/E to VAX/VMS and I have been left with
> a memory that they were very well written and useful.
>
> I've just had a quick look on Bitsavers to see if I could find them,
> but without success.
>

I had done a search on Google for: "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
Manual"

In typical Google fashion it said nothing found try changing your search
criteria. Yeah, that makes sense. Search for something you don't want.

bill

On 2023-04-07 01:02, bill wrote:
>
> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
> from RS11 on the PDP.  I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
> my interest so I picked it up and did a  little lite reading.

Well. Internally, VMS is like a scaled up RSX in many (most?) corners.
Most data structures and designs were (are) more or less the same as in
RSX, but scaled up for 32-bits and whatever logically came out from
there. A lot of system calls is the same story. And initial release of
VMS mostly used all RSX cusps, running in compatibility mode, and slowly
getting replaced with native things. Early versions of VMS I seem to
remember even might still have used ODS-1, or some hybrid between ODS-1
and -2. I clearly remember the 9+3 character filename limitation in my
earliest memories of VMS.

However, at the user interface level, VMS was clearly taking it's queues
from RSTS/E. Including having the BASIC+ SYS() calls compatibly working
in VMS. And things like ^C actually stopping the program, unlike under
RSX, where it just gives you the CLI prompt.

> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
> Manual".  I would love to see a copy of that.

There was also a manual/book about moving from RSX to VMS published. I
think DEC tried to address both crowds, and convince them both to
migrate to VMS. However, I think they were much more successful in
convincing the RSTS/E guys.

Johnny

On 4/7/2023 5:22 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-04-07 01:02, bill wrote:
>> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
>> from RS11 on the PDP.  I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
>> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
>> my interest so I picked it up and did a  little lite reading.
>
> Well. Internally, VMS is like a scaled up RSX in many (most?) corners.
> Most data structures and designs were (are) more or less the same as in
> RSX, but scaled up for 32-bits and whatever logically came out from
> there. A lot of system calls is the same story. And initial release of
> VMS mostly used all RSX cusps, running in compatibility mode, and slowly
> getting replaced with native things. Early versions of VMS I seem to
> remember even might still have used ODS-1, or some hybrid between ODS-1
> and -2. I clearly remember the 9+3 character filename limitation in my
> earliest memories of VMS.

Before my time (I started with 4.4) but I thought the 9+3 to
39+39 change happened with VMS 3.x -> 4.0 not with ODS-1 to ODS-2?

Arne

On 4/7/2023 5:22 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-04-07 01:02, bill wrote:
>>
>> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
>> from RS11 on the PDP. I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
>> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
>> my interest so I picked it up and did a little lite reading.
>
> Well. Internally, VMS is like a scaled up RSX in many (most?) corners. Most data
> structures and designs were (are) more or less the same as in RSX, but scaled up
> for 32-bits and whatever logically came out from there. A lot of system calls is
> the same story. And initial release of VMS mostly used all RSX cusps, running in
> compatibility mode, and slowly getting replaced with native things. Early
> versions of VMS I seem to remember even might still have used ODS-1, or some
> hybrid between ODS-1 and -2. I clearly remember the 9+3 character filename
> limitation in my earliest memories of VMS.
>
> However, at the user interface level, VMS was clearly taking it's queues from
> RSTS/E. Including having the BASIC+ SYS() calls compatibly working in VMS. And
> things like ^C actually stopping the program, unlike under RSX, where it just
> gives you the CLI prompt.
>
>> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
>> Manual". I would love to see a copy of that.
>
> There was also a manual/book about moving from RSX to VMS published. I think DEC
> tried to address both crowds, and convince them both to migrate to VMS. However,
> I think they were much more successful in convincing the RSTS/E guys.
>
> Johnny
>

Well, virtual address space was sort of a rather large hammer ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/7/2023 6:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/7/2023 5:22 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2023-04-07 01:02, bill wrote:
>>> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
>>> from RS11 on the PDP. I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
>>> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
>>> my interest so I picked it up and did a little lite reading.
>>
>> Well. Internally, VMS is like a scaled up RSX in many (most?) corners. Most
>> data structures and designs were (are) more or less the same as in RSX, but
>> scaled up for 32-bits and whatever logically came out from there. A lot of
>> system calls is the same story. And initial release of VMS mostly used all RSX
>> cusps, running in compatibility mode, and slowly getting replaced with native
>> things. Early versions of VMS I seem to remember even might still have used
>> ODS-1, or some hybrid between ODS-1 and -2. I clearly remember the 9+3
>> character filename limitation in my earliest memories of VMS.
>
> Before my time (I started with 4.4) but I thought the 9+3 to
> 39+39 change happened with VMS 3.x -> 4.0 not with ODS-1 to ODS-2?
>
> Arne

And your memory would be correct. I started on VMS at version 2, and the 9+3
was it at that time.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On Thursday, April 6, 2023 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, bill wrote:
> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
> Manual". I would love to see a copy of that.

I probably have a copy around somewhere (I looked and I don't have an online copy, though it may be on the RSTS SIG BBS system in my basement)

There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically designed to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS. From: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf

"RSTS/E ON VAX
ROSS/V
(RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)

ROSS/V is a software package, written in
VAX-11 MACRO. which provides a RSTS/E
monitor environment for programs running in
PDP-11 compatibility mode on DEC's VAX-11.
ROSS/V supports:
•The BASIC -PLUS interactive environment.
• Concurrent use of multiple run-time systems
• Update mode (multi-user read / write access to
shared files )
• CCL ( Concise Command Language) commands .
• An extensive subset of RSTS/E monitor calls.
ROSS/V runs under VMS and interfaces to pro-
grams and run-time systems at the RSTS/E
monitor call level. ROSS/V makes it possible for
DEC PDP-11 RSTS/E users to move many of
their applications directly to the VAX with little
or no modification and to continue program
development on the VAX in the uniquely hospit-
able RSTS/E environment. Most BASIC-PLUS
programs will run under an unmodified
BASIC-PLUS run-time system."

On 2023-04-08 00:26, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/7/2023 5:22 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2023-04-07 01:02, bill wrote:
>>> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
>>> from RS11 on the PDP.  I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
>>> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
>>> my interest so I picked it up and did a  little lite reading.
>>
>> Well. Internally, VMS is like a scaled up RSX in many (most?) corners.
>> Most data structures and designs were (are) more or less the same as
>> in RSX, but scaled up for 32-bits and whatever logically came out from
>> there. A lot of system calls is the same story. And initial release of
>> VMS mostly used all RSX cusps, running in compatibility mode, and
>> slowly getting replaced with native things. Early versions of VMS I
>> seem to remember even might still have used ODS-1, or some hybrid
>> between ODS-1 and -2. I clearly remember the 9+3 character filename
>> limitation in my earliest memories of VMS.
>
> Before my time (I started with 4.4) but I thought the 9+3 to
> 39+39 change happened with VMS 3.x -> 4.0 not with ODS-1 to ODS-2?

My earliest VMS was 3.6 or 3.7. Which seems to match very well with a
memory that it changed with V4.

But was it ODS-2 already at VMS V3? I guess it might have been, but I
thought the filename format, as well as directory structure hadn't
changed in ODS-2. But if you are right, then the ODS-2 spec must have
changed?

Johnny

On 2023-04-08 03:05, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/7/2023 5:22 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2023-04-07 01:02, bill wrote:
>>>
>>> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
>>> from RS11 on the PDP.  I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
>>> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
>>> my interest so I picked it up and did a  little lite reading.
>>
>> Well. Internally, VMS is like a scaled up RSX in many (most?) corners.
>> Most data
>> structures and designs were (are) more or less the same as in RSX, but
>> scaled up
>> for 32-bits and whatever logically came out from there. A lot of
>> system calls is
>> the same story. And initial release of VMS mostly used all RSX cusps,
>> running in
>> compatibility mode, and slowly getting replaced with native things. Early
>> versions of VMS I seem to remember even might still have used ODS-1,
>> or some
>> hybrid between ODS-1 and -2. I clearly remember the 9+3 character
>> filename
>> limitation in my earliest memories of VMS.
>>
>> However, at the user interface level, VMS was clearly taking it's
>> queues from
>> RSTS/E. Including having the BASIC+ SYS() calls compatibly working in
>> VMS. And
>> things like ^C actually stopping the program, unlike under RSX, where
>> it just
>> gives you the CLI prompt.
>>
>>> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
>>> Manual".  I would love to see a copy of that.
>>
>> There was also a manual/book about moving from RSX to VMS published. I
>> think DEC
>> tried to address both crowds, and convince them both to migrate to
>> VMS. However,
>> I think they were much more successful in convincing the RSTS/E guys.
>>
>>   Johnny
>>
>
> Well, virtual address space was sort of a rather large hammer ...

Yes. Scaled up quite a lot. But virtual addresses as such was already
there on the PDP-11. Remember: VAX -> Virtual Address *eXtension*.

Johnny

On 4/9/2023 12:15 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-04-08 00:26, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/7/2023 5:22 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2023-04-07 01:02, bill wrote:
>>>> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
>>>> from RS11 on the PDP.  I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
>>>> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
>>>> my interest so I picked it up and did a  little lite reading.
>>>
>>> Well. Internally, VMS is like a scaled up RSX in many (most?)
>>> corners. Most data structures and designs were (are) more or less the
>>> same as in RSX, but scaled up for 32-bits and whatever logically came
>>> out from there. A lot of system calls is the same story. And initial
>>> release of VMS mostly used all RSX cusps, running in compatibility
>>> mode, and slowly getting replaced with native things. Early versions
>>> of VMS I seem to remember even might still have used ODS-1, or some
>>> hybrid between ODS-1 and -2. I clearly remember the 9+3 character
>>> filename limitation in my earliest memories of VMS.
>>
>> Before my time (I started with 4.4) but I thought the 9+3 to
>> 39+39 change happened with VMS 3.x -> 4.0 not with ODS-1 to ODS-2?
>
> My earliest VMS was 3.6 or 3.7. Which seems to match very well with a
> memory that it changed with V4.
>
> But was it ODS-2 already at VMS V3? I guess it might have been, but I
> thought the filename format, as well as directory structure hadn't
> changed in ODS-2. But if you are right, then the ODS-2 spec must have
> changed?

My understanding (but totally based on hearsay as it
is before my time) is that VMS had ODS-2 from day one
(but also supported ODS-1 for PDP-11 compatibility).

Arne

On 2023-04-09 20:29, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/9/2023 12:15 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2023-04-08 00:26, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 4/7/2023 5:22 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> On 2023-04-07 01:02, bill wrote:
>>>>> WE have often heard that VMS on the VAX was the logical procession
>>>>> from RS11 on the PDP.  I was looking around at my bookshelf and saw
>>>>> my 1983-84 RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System book and it kinda piqued
>>>>> my interest so I picked it up and did a  little lite reading.
>>>>
>>>> Well. Internally, VMS is like a scaled up RSX in many (most?)
>>>> corners. Most data structures and designs were (are) more or less
>>>> the same as in RSX, but scaled up for 32-bits and whatever logically
>>>> came out from there. A lot of system calls is the same story. And
>>>> initial release of VMS mostly used all RSX cusps, running in
>>>> compatibility mode, and slowly getting replaced with native things.
>>>> Early versions of VMS I seem to remember even might still have used
>>>> ODS-1, or some hybrid between ODS-1 and -2. I clearly remember the
>>>> 9+3 character filename limitation in my earliest memories of VMS.
>>>
>>> Before my time (I started with 4.4) but I thought the 9+3 to
>>> 39+39 change happened with VMS 3.x -> 4.0 not with ODS-1 to ODS-2?
>>
>> My earliest VMS was 3.6 or 3.7. Which seems to match very well with a
>> memory that it changed with V4.
>>
>> But was it ODS-2 already at VMS V3? I guess it might have been, but I
>> thought the filename format, as well as directory structure hadn't
>> changed in ODS-2. But if you are right, then the ODS-2 spec must have
>> changed?
>
> My understanding (but totally based on hearsay as it
> is before my time) is that VMS had ODS-2 from day one
> (but also supported ODS-1 for PDP-11 compatibility).

VMS on VAXen still supported ODS-1 right up to the last release (V7.3).
I was sortof expecting that VMS used ODS-2 from day one. I read up a bit
on ODS-2 now, and it always allowed up to 255 characters in a filename,
in the directory structure, it seems. (And the file header actually only
keeps 40 characters, which is shared by name, extension and version number).

So I wonder if the 9+3 was just a parsing limitation, which was there
because of various tools still being RSX binaries running in
compatibility mode, and those would have the 9+3 limit.

Johnny

On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 11:13:58 PM UTC-4, terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
>
> There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically designed to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS. From: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf
>
> "RSTS/E ON VAX
> ROSS/V
> (RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)

Hmmm, we’re still at the same address… could probably dig up the sources if someone wants to make a purchase. ;)

On 4/11/2023 9:13 PM, Jonathan wrote:
> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 11:13:58 PM UTC-4, terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
>>
>> There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically designed to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS. From: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf
>>
>> "RSTS/E ON VAX
>> ROSS/V
>> (RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)
>
> Hmmm, we’re still at the same address… could probably dig up the sources if someone wants to make a purchase. ;)
>

Hmmm ....

John, where do we find CPUs providing PDP-11 compatibility mode?

:-)

Good to see you're still doing ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/12/2023 8:22 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-04-12, bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/12/2023 8:14 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2023-04-12, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/11/2023 9:13 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 11:13:58?PM UTC-4, terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically designed to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS. From: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "RSTS/E ON VAX
>>>>>> ROSS/V
>>>>>> (RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm, we?re still at the same address? could probably dig up the sources if someone wants to make a purchase. ;)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm ....
>>>>
>>>> John, where do we find CPUs providing PDP-11 compatibility mode?
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> SimH ? :-)
>>
>> Not even close..... :-)
>>
>
> The VAX-11/780 emulator in SimH is reported to have the full PDP-11
> compatibility mode support, which addresses David's implied requirement
> that this ROSS/V product requires it.
>

Sorry, I thought you were suggesting getting PDP-11 compatibility mode
by running SimH on the VAX. Of course, the fact that you can run SimH
on a VAX kinda makes the need for ROSS/V go away, doesn't it? :-)

bill

On 2023-04-12 14:14, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-04-12, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 4/11/2023 9:13 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 11:13:58?PM UTC-4, terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically designed to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS. From: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf
>>>>
>>>> "RSTS/E ON VAX
>>>> ROSS/V
>>>> (RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)
>>>
>>> Hmmm, we?re still at the same address? could probably dig up the sources if someone wants to make a purchase. ;)
>>>
>>
>> Hmmm ....
>>
>> John, where do we find CPUs providing PDP-11 compatibility mode?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>
> SimH ? :-)

The last VAX with PDP-11 compatibility in hardware was the 86x0.
However, any later VAX can do this in software, with the AME product. I
would expect that would work just as well with ROSS as with the RSX
emulation.

But of course, I'm not sure AME is possible to purchase anymore either...

Johnny

On 2023-04-12, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> On 4/11/2023 9:13 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 11:13:58?PM UTC-4, terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
>>>
>>> There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically designed to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS. From: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf
>>>
>>> "RSTS/E ON VAX
>>> ROSS/V
>>> (RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)
>>
>> Hmmm, we?re still at the same address? could probably dig up the sources if someone wants to make a purchase. ;)
>>
>
> Hmmm ....
>
> John, where do we find CPUs providing PDP-11 compatibility mode?
>
>:-)
>

SimH ? :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 4/12/2023 8:14 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-04-12, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 4/11/2023 9:13 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 11:13:58?PM UTC-4, terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically designed to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS. From: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf
>>>>
>>>> "RSTS/E ON VAX
>>>> ROSS/V
>>>> (RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)
>>>
>>> Hmmm, we?re still at the same address? could probably dig up the sources if someone wants to make a purchase. ;)
>>>
>>
>> Hmmm ....
>>
>> John, where do we find CPUs providing PDP-11 compatibility mode?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>
> SimH ? :-)

Not even close..... :-)

bill

On 2023-04-12, bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/12/2023 8:14 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-04-12, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2023 9:13 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 11:13:58?PM UTC-4, terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically designed to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS. From: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> "RSTS/E ON VAX
>>>>> ROSS/V
>>>>> (RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm, we?re still at the same address? could probably dig up the sources if someone wants to make a purchase. ;)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hmmm ....
>>>
>>> John, where do we find CPUs providing PDP-11 compatibility mode?
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>
>> SimH ? :-)
>
> Not even close..... :-)
>

The VAX-11/780 emulator in SimH is reported to have the full PDP-11
compatibility mode support, which addresses David's implied requirement
that this ROSS/V product requires it.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 4/12/2023 8:46 AM, bill wrote:
> On 4/12/2023 8:22 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-04-12, bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/12/2023 8:14 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2023-04-12, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/11/2023 9:13 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 11:13:58?PM UTC-4, terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically designed
>>>>>>> to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS. From:
>>>>>>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "RSTS/E ON VAX
>>>>>>> ROSS/V
>>>>>>> (RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmmm, we?re still at the same address? could probably dig up the sources
>>>>>> if someone wants to make a purchase. ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm ....
>>>>>
>>>>> John, where do we find CPUs providing PDP-11 compatibility mode?
>>>>>
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SimH ? :-)
>>>
>>> Not even close..... :-)
>>>
>>
>> The VAX-11/780 emulator in SimH is reported to have the full PDP-11
>> compatibility mode support, which addresses David's implied requirement
>> that this ROSS/V product requires it.
>>
>
> Sorry, I thought you were suggesting getting PDP-11 compatibility mode
> by running SimH on the VAX. Of course, the fact that you can run SimH
> on a VAX kinda makes the need for ROSS/V go away, doesn't it? :-)
>
> bill
>
>

No, not at all! ROSS/V provided a RSTS environment on the early VAXs, and I
don't remember, but it might have been possible to run executables copied from
RSTS. ROSS/V was an exceptional product.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 4/12/2023 9:26 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/12/2023 8:46 AM, bill wrote:
>> On 4/12/2023 8:22 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2023-04-12, bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/12/2023 8:14 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-04-12, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/11/2023 9:13 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 11:13:58?PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>> terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was at least one 3rd-party product that was specifically
>>>>>>>> designed
>>>>>>>> to let RSTS users run their code pretty much unmodified on VMS.
>>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V04_N03_198206.pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "RSTS/E ON VAX
>>>>>>>> ROSS/V
>>>>>>>> (RSTS/E Operating System Simulator for VAX)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmmm, we?re still at the same address? could probably dig up the
>>>>>>> sources
>>>>>>> if someone wants to make a purchase. ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmmm ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John, where do we find CPUs providing PDP-11 compatibility mode?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> SimH ? :-)
>>>>
>>>> Not even close.....  :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> The VAX-11/780 emulator in SimH is reported to have the full PDP-11
>>> compatibility mode support, which addresses David's implied requirement
>>> that this ROSS/V product requires it.
>>>
>>
>> Sorry, I thought you were suggesting getting PDP-11 compatibility mode
>> by running SimH on the VAX.  Of course, the fact that you can run SimH
>> on a VAX kinda makes the need for ROSS/V go away, doesn't it?  :-)
>>
>> bill
>>
>>
>
> No, not at all!  ROSS/V provided a RSTS environment on the early VAXs,
> and I don't remember, but it might have been possible to run executables
> copied from RSTS.  ROSS/V was an exceptional product.
>

Well, while ROSS/V is a nice product, like so many products it
has outlived its need. SimH emulating a PDP-11 on a VAX can run
real RSTS/E providing a RSTS environment and even running executables
copied from another machine running RSTS.

bill

On Thursday, April 6, 2023 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, bill wrote:

> And there is another note about "The RSTS/E and VAX/VMS Compatbility
> Manual". I would love to see a copy of that.
>

Hi Bill, I found your post accidentally, and I happen to have this book. It's a rather thick softcover manual, with maybe 1000 thin pages...
It goes by introducing VMS concepts, and new (compared to RSTS/E) things like clusters, and then discussing RSTS/E and VMS beginning from basic stuff like naming devices, general use, to monitor / OS calls / directives, to command language, listing all standard RSTS/E DCL commands and providing their equivalents in VMS. I have a 1988 revision (not sure if there were any other). It says it applies to VMS 5.0 and RSTS/E V9.6. (A similar compatibility manual exists for RSX11 vs VMS, as well.)

It's funny but I always wanted to see the handbook that you have and mentioned -- RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System 1983-84 -- yet I never had a chance. There seem to be no digital copies around, of either manual.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EbJ7Vpi8oGWodYOf42ZoBrEdtLcCeFLQ/view?usp=sharing

I took snapshots of the TOC and preface for you:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n_hkUfuOta0AfCqiaCIsmEjbM_zTg3Aq/view?usp=sharing